Ouroboros Posted July 12, 2005 Share Posted July 12, 2005 Quite true. But, it is also obvious that not everything within Revelation can be forced to happen. (namely the natural disasters) So if people of the world were forcing things to happen in order to fullfill the prophecy, they would mess up the order of the seals and the order to which the prophecies were supposed to be fullfill, thus it would disprove the prophecies as perfect. Yup, the natural events would be hard to fake! The earthquakes you feel is when I get so mad that I stomp my foot in the ground... you didn't know, you say!? And to return to the mark of the beast etc, you've heard that the number has been changed from 666 to 616, according to older fragments found of the Revelations. So I hope the Devil get's it right, otherwise he will spoil all the fun when everyone has to erase the mark and print a new one... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amethyst Posted July 12, 2005 Share Posted July 12, 2005 I get your standpoint, and yes, he may not have been thinking clearly. But would he have not noticed some form of error in his attempts later on in the future? Even if it was a subconscious error, could it not still be attributed to a God that these errors occured? Just throwing more ideas out there... Maybe not. Sometimes, the mind blocks out events in order to protect the person. And there is absolutely no proof that a subconscious error can be attributed to a deity or supernatural force of any kind. Wanting something to be true doesn't make it true. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Caretaker Posted July 12, 2005 Share Posted July 12, 2005 Quite true. But, it is also obvious that not everything within Revelation can be forced to happen. (namely the natural disasters) So if people of the world were forcing things to happen in order to fullfill the prophecy, they would mess up the order of the seals and the order to which the prophecies were supposed to be fullfill, thus it would disprove the prophecies as perfect. Just a little $0.039 (two cents adjusted for inflation), but yes, I think prophesies come true due to an aspect of human nature which tends to be a catalyst. Tell me, or not, but have you ever walked into a class at the beginning of the year, with the gut feeling that you are not going to do so well, or that you will ace the class, and then your end-of-year grade was usually what you expected? This is a topic discussed in my Educational Psychology class, called self-fulfilled prophesy. I tend to believe that *some* prophesies are fulfilled simply because of this. To me, this is not a miracle, but just an emergent property of human psychology. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ouroboros Posted July 12, 2005 Share Posted July 12, 2005 The only error in that thinking is that if the Christian rapture were to occur, it would be Christians taken away. I am not informed of the Islamic rapture, but if it is similar to the Christian one, then if it were to occur it would leave the Christians all still here. So by looking at whom was taken up, then one could make a fairly informed decision as to which rapture it may have been. I wonder how to interpret if all the Atheists were raptured? Yes, it is sad to see all these different interpretations. A lot of it spawns from foolish denominations that can only seperate...(a whole different debate in itself) Thus, I choose to remain a non-denominational Christian. Good choice. You use your own mind to come to belief instead of being guided with only one single preachers or pastor. This is interesting; Jesus said the truth would set you free. But the only way to get the truth is to look at events and things from all different angels and everyone’s point of view. You can't get the truth by just getting your information from one source. Simpleton thinking doesn't lead to truth, it only leads to fanaticism. But diversified thinking leads to understanding of how difficult it is to know truth, and it leads to respect and tolerance of other opinions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ouroboros Posted July 12, 2005 Share Posted July 12, 2005 Just a little $0.039 (two cents adjusted for inflation), but yes, I think prophesies come true due to an aspect of human nature which tends to be a catalyst. Tell me, or not, but have you ever walked into a class at the beginning of the year, with the gut feeling that you are not going to do so well, or that you will ace the class, and then your end-of-year grade was usually what you expected? This is a topic discussed in my Educational Psychology class, called self-fulfilled prophesy. I tend to believe that *some* prophesies are fulfilled simply because of this. To me, this is not a miracle, but just an emergent property of human psychology. The self-fullfilled prophesis not only works on single people, but on the masses too. When it comes to the masses of people, with the same agenda, the same meme, you will have self-fulfilling actions from the masses as well, they will work as one. (like the ants in an ant hill, same purpose, same goal) -- edit Ok I should add that this is something I believe, not something I know from anywhere or anything I read. But I think that it very much can happen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fweethawt Posted July 12, 2005 Share Posted July 12, 2005 Quite true. But, it is also obvious that not everything within Revelation can be forced to happen. (namely the natural disasters) So if people of the world were forcing things to happen in order to fullfill the prophecy, they would mess up the order of the seals and the order to which the prophecies were supposed to be fullfill, thus it would disprove the prophecies as perfect. Please read the page at THIS LINK. Now, while you're reading that, try to use your imagination a bit to determine which parts of that that people will actually be able to make happen. Is this what it's going to take in order for people to realize that Christianity is a crock? One huge, major war that destroys the entire planet with the expectation behind it all that someone is going to come floating down out of the sky and make everything all better? Why is it that you can only see the danger of this if you don't believe in the theology? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Caretaker Posted July 12, 2005 Share Posted July 12, 2005 The self-fullfilled prophesis not only works on single people, but on the masses too. When it comes to the masses of people, with the same agenda, the same meme, you will have self-fulfilling actions from the masses as well, they will work as one. (like the ants in an ant hill, same purpose, same goal) -- edit Ok I should add that this is something I believe, not something I know from anywhere or anything I read. But I think that it very much can happen. It's just an observed property in human nature. If you truly believe that something under your control is going to happen, whether desirable or not, there is a good chance that it will happen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Isak The Newt Posted July 12, 2005 Share Posted July 12, 2005 my brain = this big! compaired to most of these comments... can i just say, science works right now b/c it can change, to be proven something was wrong and no regret, its just rewritten... while xtians are like "Eh... holy bible right! you wrong!! 2+2=Fish! not 5." .... you should see my calculator, it says 2+2 = fish and 4+4=cow here my penny though... Live your life as if you were to die!! Cuase truelly you are already dead? no no no... bah, the holy bobble is better An so Robert Junior fed men by fishing and cooking them on the holy grill to be lost and attempted to be found by King Auther and Exalifork!!! Got any ketchup? (i bet your thinking... "what?") Spraining an ankle and saying it didnt hurt becuase god willed it so... then allowing you gas to fuel your car... and 3 shooting stars after the crowd starts singing a prayer... are you sure it wasnt a fly suacer going around filling up cars with gas and people with endorphines? While you think its a miracle... some hippy might think 3 shooting stars is a flying saucer... Pray Tunare have mercy on all our souls... Also, on the subject of God's wacky ways: a customer of mine was telling my boss about the eye operation one of her employees had to go through. I don't know what was wrong, but the girl had to have an eye removed, and she was terrified to go through with it. Well, when she had a check-up prior to it, the doctors scared her even more shitless by saying they thought she had cancer on one of her organs that might also need removal. So not only was she going to have an eye taken out, but an organ as well. O.o god has a cruel sense of humor... doesnt he? Well thank bob that i didnt need surgery when i was in the hospital... Broken my arms twice, and my back injured with a crush esphogous... that about sums up my lifes worth of trouble. and my brother... dont even want to start it though... Hey i have a question though... That hindu story... O.o o.O woaaaah maaaan... Freaky deaky.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ouroboros Posted July 12, 2005 Share Posted July 12, 2005 Please read the page at THIS LINK. David Hasselhoff is the Devil, I KNEW IT! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dogmatically_challenged Posted July 12, 2005 Share Posted July 12, 2005 my brain = this big! compaired to most of these comments...can i just say, science works right now b/c it can change, to be proven something was wrong and no regret, its just rewritten... while xtians are like "Eh... holy bible right! you wrong!! 2+2=Fish! not 5." .... you should see my calculator, it says 2+2 = fish and 4+4=cow here my penny though... Live your life as if you were to die!! Cuase truelly you are already dead? no no no... bah, the holy bobble is better An so Robert Junior fed men by fishing and cooking them on the holy grill to be lost and attempted to be found by King Auther and Exalifork!!! Got any ketchup? (i bet your thinking... "what?") Spraining an ankle and saying it didnt hurt becuase god willed it so... then allowing you gas to fuel your car... and 3 shooting stars after the crowd starts singing a prayer... are you sure it wasnt a fly suacer going around filling up cars with gas and people with endorphines? <{POST_SNAPBACK}> are you sure it wasnt a fly suacer going around filling up cars with gas and people with endorphines? Theres more evidence for UFO's than God. As the little red headed girl from the kids in the hall says, "Its a fact!" hehe! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ouroboros Posted July 12, 2005 Share Posted July 12, 2005 my brain = this big! compaired to most of these comments...can i just say, science works right now b/c it can change, to be proven something was wrong and no regret, its just rewritten... while xtians are like "Eh... holy bible right! you wrong!! 2+2=Fish! not 5." .... you should see my calculator, it says 2+2 = fish and 4+4=cow here my penny though... Live your life as if you were to die!! Cuase truelly you are already dead? no no no... bah, the holy bobble is better An so Robert Junior fed men by fishing and cooking them on the holy grill to be lost and attempted to be found by King Auther and Exalifork!!! Got any ketchup? (i bet your thinking... "what?") Spraining an ankle and saying it didnt hurt becuase god willed it so... then allowing you gas to fuel your car... and 3 shooting stars after the crowd starts singing a prayer... are you sure it wasnt a fly suacer going around filling up cars with gas and people with endorphines? Now I have two of my kids on this site! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pitchu Posted July 12, 2005 Share Posted July 12, 2005 Fred, I want to commend you on being generally even-tempered and attentive, and in sharing much that gives us a more personal knowledge of you than is the case with many Christians who come here. To me, one of the benefits of my being an atheist is that neither a concept of a god nor a concept of a satan interferes with or guides my doing right or wrong. To me, full responsibilty equals full humanness. And one thing of which I'm certain is that I'm human. Extended, then, no, the world is not a cesspool of evil, nor is it a tug-of-war rope between heaven and hell. The world is a place wherein there is natural bounty and there are natural disasters; there are people whose outlooks, words and deeds affect the balance of good and evil, and to be human means to take complete and total responsibility for one's life and how one lives it. In an atheist's world, nobody, above or below, stamps the ugly actions or the heroic efforts of humans "CANCELLED DUE TO INTERVENTION." It is my belief that Christians, looking always for the source of intervention (miracles, the hand of God, the work of the Devil, the infestation of demons), lead inauthentic lives -- they have forfeited their full humanity for the status of a rope in a tug-of-war of their own imagining. To me, this is disturbing and unutterably sad. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Isak The Newt Posted July 12, 2005 Share Posted July 12, 2005 El Oh El, dad, we just need the other 3 and mom, and we'd dominate this site ... eh scratch that, maybe not... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Caretaker Posted July 12, 2005 Share Posted July 12, 2005 El Oh El, dad, we just need the other 3 and mom, and we'd dominate this site ... eh scratch that, maybe not... Sooooo.... Which one are you? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ouroboros Posted July 12, 2005 Share Posted July 12, 2005 El Oh El, dad, we just need the other 3 and mom, and we'd dominate this site ... eh scratch that, maybe not... If your mom comes on board, she will dominate it all. She's God! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Isak The Newt Posted July 12, 2005 Share Posted July 12, 2005 Er... if mom came on the board, it doesnt matter whos who, and how much respect you have, you're gonna get told o.O btw im the second of 5 kids... just answering khan... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sokudo Ningyou Posted July 12, 2005 Share Posted July 12, 2005 Theres more evidence for UFO's than God. As the little red headed girl from the kids in the hall says, "Its a fact!" hehe! "After all this time, all we've figured out is that one out of ten actually likes it. I just don't understand why we're going around picking up any idiot in a pick-up truck. Why not some of their world leaders?" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dogmatically_challenged Posted July 12, 2005 Share Posted July 12, 2005 "After all this time, all we've figured out is that one out of ten actually likes it. I just don't understand why we're going around picking up any idiot in a pick-up truck. Why not some of their world leaders?" <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Take my uncle Please! Theres room for one more hillbilly in with them there politicians! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whatifidontwantausername? Posted July 12, 2005 Share Posted July 12, 2005 Freestyle I want to appologize for my attitude, the last few days have been trying for me. An Aunt of mine died and things are kind of hectic, I am sure you can understand that. Anywho... it is quite easy for people online, or anywhere, to think that you hold these "miracles" in high regard simply because you have posted them online for the world to see. I once heard it said that you should never write something down that you don't want the whole world to see. And as you can see, most non-christians would look at these at spooky coincidences at best and sheer stupidity at worst. I was somewhere between the two. As for the man with the gun, I doubt he would reload the gun to shoot himself again. As someone who tried death by a gunshot(Thankfully it wasn't loaded) I know sort of what goes on. He probubly pulled the trigger and heard the click of the pin, then opened his eyes and wondered if he was a ghost. He then probubly looked around and saw he was still alive and dropped the gun. MAybe the gun went off then, or perhaps he forgot to cock it. I am assuming it was a handgun, but I could be wrong. My post was not supposed to be an attack on you, I just had enough for about a week and I blew up. I can't apologize for what I said though, because it is how I feel about it, I can only apologize for my attitude at that moment. I personaly do not think you are ignorant, but perhaps immature and arrogant. I say this just because that is a first impression I have gotten, but I get that with a lot of people. Whomever said that there were a lot of people who still hold a grudge against Christianity is right, there is a lot of anger and sadness at this website directed towards that religion. I can say that the religion itself has done nothing to me, so I have nothing against it. Many of the people who follow said religion are, however, something of a different matter. But if I went into that a whole new thread would have to be made and I feel sleepy at the moment. Fred... I don't claim to understand you. I dont know you, where you come from, your name, the color of your eyes, or your scent. I do know this: Coming to this website and actualy posting and sticking with it is an act of faith, and you are sticking with your religion. Good on ya mate. -Jake Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LloydDobler Posted July 12, 2005 Share Posted July 12, 2005 I have heard a quite amazing testimony that did regard a miracle that you stated was impossible, it was about bullets becoming blanks. A guy, maybe in his mid 20s, told me one of the most amazing testimonies I believe I have ever heard. He had hunted a lot, I don't remember the details of the kind of gun or anything that he used, I just know that he had hunted a fair amount in his past. In all his hunting time he had never had a blank before. He became suicidal, he placed the gun to his head and pulled the trigger, it was a blank. Surely one could say that was coincidence, even though he had never gotten a blank before, it is obviously quite probable. He reloaded the gun and placed it to his head once again and pulled the trigger. Yet another blank. At that point he truly believed, and he never attempted suicide again. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> This is a lie. Blanks will kill you if you hold a gun at your head and fire one. So either god made his bullets actually disappear, (vastly more improbable) or this is an old wives' tale that is spread around to make gullible people like you go 'wow god is aMAZing!' Like, my son totally restored inside, that would blow me away and I would believe in an instant, and become the strongest preacher in the world. It's just a small matter of healing the spinal cord in three places, restore his removed bowels, and remove all internal scar tissue, and place all organs back that are lost, and put them back to their original place. Nothing big, really... And of course 8 years of lost childhood, pain and suffering. I do not know what more to say to this... How about 'Jesus please heal hansolo's son in your holy name' Or are your words empty and your god impotent? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chefranden Posted July 12, 2005 Share Posted July 12, 2005 I have heard a quite amazing testimony that did regard a miracle that you stated was impossible, it was about bullets becoming blanks. A guy, maybe in his mid 20s, told me one of the most amazing testimonies I believe I have ever heard. He had hunted a lot, I don't remember the details of the kind of gun or anything that he used, I just know that he had hunted a fair amount in his past. In all his hunting time he had never had a blank before. He became suicidal, he placed the gun to his head and pulled the trigger, it was a blank. Surely one could say that was coincidence, even though he had never gotten a blank before, it is obviously quite probable. He reloaded the gun and placed it to his head once again and pulled the trigger. Yet another blank. At that point he truly believed, and he never attempted suicide again. Sorry a blank will kill you at that range. What do you personally know about guns? He may have had a missfire, they happen. Two missfires in a row? That is streaching it. It was more likely a problem with the firing pin either missing or broken. Most likely he was pulling your leg. It wasn't God. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vixentrox Posted July 12, 2005 Share Posted July 12, 2005 Perhaps he tried making hand-loads and screwed up a batch. Or perhaps a bad batch came from the company. And yes, blanks can kill and injure you at close range. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Asimov Posted July 13, 2005 Share Posted July 13, 2005 Not saying you're a liar, Fred, but I love it when people are exposed as liars. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sokudo Ningyou Posted July 13, 2005 Share Posted July 13, 2005 He may have had a missfire, they happen. Two missfires in a row? That is streaching it.It was more likely a problem with the firing pin either missing or broken. Most likely he was pulling your leg. It wasn't God. Actually, Andrew Jackson was nearly assasinated, but was saved by two missfires in a row. He then proceeded to beat the poor bastard with his cane. Ah, history. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chefranden Posted July 13, 2005 Share Posted July 13, 2005 Actually, Andrew Jackson was nearly assasinated, but was saved by two missfires in a row. He then proceeded to beat the poor bastard with his cane. Ah, history. True, but missfires were very common in the flint lock days. Modern ammo is much more reliable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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