Most Annoying Non-x-tian Religion

[Evolution_beyond]

But christians lie about what Judaism is all about.

 

What is Judaism all about?

 

Wrestling with the concept of God - and obeying the Torah (according to your own interpretation of it).

 

I find myself intrigued that a religion can hold the laws of a book with such reverence - but also be very flexible with regards to a person's interpretation of scripture and concept of God.

 

Judaism requires you to believe in God in a nominal sense - but how you define God is up to you (even to the extent of being atheist in all but name).

 

This automatically makes it better than christianity or Islam in my opinion. I'm inclined to respect it, almost but not quite as much as hinduism or buddhism.

 

That's as far as my research goes. I had a jewish friend in University who I used to discuss many things with - and I've read some books about these things - but I've never been a Jew or been involved in the Jewish religion.

 

But I do view Judaism different from xtianity and Islam. And I do it for honest reasons - not because of fear of being branded a racist. So it is wrong of people to assume that motive when it's not necessarily there. And I do think that a lot of people just lump it together with chrisitianity because of the Old Testament without really understanding its differences.

[Vomit Comet]

Yeah, Asian folks must get pretty annoyed at how Western white people romanticize Buddhism. Particularly the girls I know from immigrant families that regard themselves as having rebelled from it.

 

Hinduism is also pretty repressive for females. Some of the wildest party animal girls I've known were Indian girls who'd been disowned by their parents and had nothing left to lose.

[Evolution_beyond]

I'd have to say Buddism. People think they're a religion of peace, they have fantasies of magical Jedi like Buddist temples, tucked behind some misty mountain, the air concentrated with the aroma, of pure water vapors from melting pure Hiyminalyan snow and Patcholi incense.

 

Erm... Strawman?

 

Then why did they run amuck in Japan with white headbands and spears, and why do the Shaolin monks incorporate spears and swords into their martial arts.

 

Martial arts are sometimes older than Buddhism. And Japanese nationalism should not be confused with Buddhism.

 

The main tenants of Buddism is Everyone suffers, and that the problem of suffering can be solved.

 

Surely this is true?

 

Also, Thailand is a Buddist country, and it ended up having a military coup!

 

Please present a problem with the religion, not a problem with the politics of a given area!

 

Lama buddism in Tibet, also operated on a Caste system, not unlike Catholicism.

 

Even though the Buddha spoke against caste systems, making this Tibetan variant a corrupted form of Buddhism.

 

and speaking of Buddism, why are there 4 different competing sects of Buddism (the current one are the yellow headresses). if Buddism is such a religion of peace, why fight for which sect is better? why bother with hats at all? why not coexist?

 

Fight? There is a difference between fighting and disagreeing/debating. Do Mahayana, Theravada, Zen and Vajrayana physically fight each other? Examples please...

 

conclusion. Buddism sucks because it encourages caste system servitute, war and violence, and ignorance.

 

No it doesn't.

 

Steven Segal's neck snapping, death moves, proves this. He after all, some reincarnated Buddist monk. Fulfiliing his Karma..... to promote violence by perverting a peaceful martial art Akido, to snappy, neck, arm, leg martial art.... causing suffering. So I guess Buddah was right... everybody suffers. Especially when it's his followers who cause it.

 

let's not forget Shoko Ashahara. Manahantra Buddism... I don't know how spraying poison gas into some chick's eyes on a subway, is preventing suffering.

 

Stalin did what he did because he was a communist, not because he was an atheist. Did these people do what they did because they are Buddhist??? There are always some nutters that let everybody down. I fail to see how this invalidates the original Buddhist creed.

[Grandpa Harley]

TBH, The Buddha didn't have much to say about gender roles. Rather like Jesus and Gays... for the most part it's been down to the cultural lens of the country it's settled in as to what Buddhism looks like... TBH there is no such thing as 'Buddhism'... it was a classification invented by the British Empire.

 

Mahayana Dharma and the Pali Canon is pretty gender neutral in it's texts, Vajrayana less so... Japan and China both had serious banditry problems, thus, it was insane for the monks NOT to be able to defend themselves... human nature being what it is, it's only a matter of time before defence becomes Offence. Most, if not all, of southern Asia and the Far East is patriarchal, thus a religio-philosophy overtly espousing everyone as equal is going to get slapped down or altered to suit. Seems to me the pox ridden cultures it moved into are to blame more than the ideas...

 

If there is an issue, it's people taking what they're told by 'teachers' as true and ignoring what the Buddha actually said

 

Trust in no man's words. Trust not in the words of scripture, the writings of old, the texts of "prophets." Do not be misled by those proficient in quoting scripture nor after reflection on mere opinion or theory. The purpose of man is not to waste one's life attempting to reach some imaginary heaven to be with some imaginary god.

Be happy to know that the world simply is, that man simply is.

[Grandpa Harley]

BTW EB, the poster is comment only on Tibetan buddhism when it comes to the 'Hat' thing...

 

From a piece I wrote some time ago

 

Nyingma

The oldest of the Tibetan Schools, tracing its lineage back to Pandit Padmasambhava (Guru Rinpoche) and his arrival in Tibet in 775C.E., at the invitation of Trisong Detsen.

The priests of this school are allowed to marry.

Other features of this school are: -

The practice of Dzogchen, which seeks to examine the fundamental nature of mind directly without use of visualisations and images.

The practice of transmission of knowledge by use of ‘terma’ (hidden scriptures) to be discovered by later masters.1

The division of Buddhist teachings into nine sections; Hearer Sutra, Solitary Realiser Sutra, Bodhisattva Sutra, Kriya Tantra, Upa Tantra, Yoga Tantra, Mahayoga, Annuyoga and Atiyoga. The first six of these sections are common to all schools, the last three are unique to Nyingma

There are three sub-traditons within this school; the Mind School (Sems-sde), the Centredness School (kLong-sde) and the Quintessential Instruction School (Man-ngag-sde)

Like the other schools, it is Tantric, but places more emphasis on it than some of the other schools, and the leader of the school is selected by searching for the re-incarnation of the previous, recently deceased, leader. This is one of the schools in which Bönpo thought is highly influential.

 

Kagyu

The second oldest existing school, and currently the third largest, founded c. 1039C.E. The name translates as ‘transmitted command’. Founded by Tilopa, and his disciple Naropa, this school is another heavily influenced by Bönpo thought. It is also based upon the principles set out by the Kadam Lineage, which is largely extinct today.

Unlike the other schools, it has no written transmission of ritual or meditative technique, being entirely reliant on direct teaching of Master to Student.

Ritual, ancient mystic lore, secret Tantra and ritual magic are keynotes of this school.

There are also clearly defined sub-orders within this school: -

Karma Kagyu

Drikung Kagyu

Drukpa Kagyu

Mahamudra is the truly unique feature of this school. It is based upon the interpretations of sutras and tantras to reveal the true nature of the Mind. The approach varies within the three existing schools, but generally follows the stages of foundation, the path and the fruit. Tantric practices unique to Kagyu school are the Six Yogas of Naropa, Cakrasambhava and Mahakala. This school is also known as the ‘Red-Hat’ school, and are the traditional rivals of the later Gelug school. This rivalry was at its peak in the period 15th Century to 17th Century.

 

Sakaya

Brogmi established this school in 1060C.E,and the first temple of the order was built around this time. Its influence increased in 1247C.E. with temporal power being granted to Lama Kunga Gyalsten, also known as Sakaya Pandita, by the Mongol Prince Godan Kahn, thus it was the first school to establish this form of Priest/Patron relationship and laid the way for full secular power over Tibet to be granted to Chogyal Phagpa by the Emperor Kublai Kahn.

The school is typified by the tradtion of Lamdrey (Lam-‘bras - ‘the Path and Its Fruit’), which is a concise presentation the Sakaya Buddhist philosophy. It leads the practioner to Hevaja, and is a synthesis of both esoteric and exoteric classes of teaching. There are two sub-traditions of ‘The Path and Its Fruit’: -

The Explanation for Private Disciples (sLob-bshad)

The Explanation for Assemblies (Tshog-bshad)

Lamdrey’s philosophical message is that one cannot attain Nirvana by abandoning Samsara, because the mind is the root of both. The practioner must therfore strive through meditation to realise their inseparability.

 

This is the only School that selects its leader from members of a single family, the Khon ancestral lineage, rather than hunting the re-incarnation of the previous head. According to tradition, the Khon are derived from celestial beings, and are of the line of the founder the first Sakaya temple, Khon Könchok Gyelpo.

 

Gelugpa

or

Gelug

The Tibetan scholar Je Tsongkhapa, who was a student of the Sakaya teacher Rendawa, founded this school in the 15th Century (c 1409C.E., the time of the founding of the first temple). One of Je Tsongkhapa’s disciples, Gedun Truppa, was posthumously declared the first Dalai Lama. All subsequent Dalai Lamas, although trained in the other schools, are Gelugpa It is interesting to note that the Dalai Lama is not the spiritual leader of the School, that role falling to the Gaden Tripa

Like Kargyu, Gelug is based on the Kadam lineage’s principles, but it encompasses all of the other existing schools teachings. This is the only school to wholeheartedly embrace the concept that meditation, purity and the monastic life are the best ways of attaining Enlightenment. Other key notes of the School: -

Emphasis on ethics

The value of sound scholarship

The existence of a Scholarly grading, Geshe. These are fully qualified and authoritative spiritual masters. There are sub-ranks of Geshe (in ascending order); Dorampa, Tsogrampa and Lhamampa.

The main Gelugpa Buddhist teachings are colleted in the Lamrin presentation, which is very like the Lamdrey of the Sakaya, but it is based upon the Kadam text ‘A lamp for the path of full awakening’ by Lama Atisha di Pankara.

The name Gelugpa is derived from the word meaning ‘Yellow Hats’, which were chosen to delineate the school from their tradional rival the Kagyu school.

 

so the 'four hat' issue is only an inter-nacine problem for Vajrayana buddhism, and is of no interest to other streams... I would have tohught someone who was Chinese would know that...

[Shion]

Mahayana Dharma and the Pali Canon is pretty gender neutral in it's texts, Vajrayana less so... Japan and China both had serious banditry problems, thus, it was insane for the monks NOT to be able to defend themselves... human nature being what it is, it's only a matter of time before defence becomes Offence. Most, if not all, of southern Asia and the Far East is patriarchal, thus a religio-philosophy overtly espousing everyone as equal is going to get slapped down or altered to suit. Seems to me the pox ridden cultures it moved into are to blame more than the ideas...

 

Correct me if I am wrong, but the Pali Canon (which I believe is the oldest of the 'Buddhist Scriptures') taught the only truly neutral gender was that of the male and for a woman to obtain enlightenment she had to earn enough karma points to be reincarnated as a man and then reach enlightenment. Or did that notion arise from the mythologies of the Bodhisatvas? (excuse my spelling)

[Grandpa Harley]

Pail is Hinayana (Theravada), and thus doesn't have the concept of Bodhisattavas. I'd have to check on the other part, since, again it's sounds more of a cultural dogma than an explicit part of the Dhammapada or other suttas.

 

I'd refer the itnerested to the the scholarly article 'The Position of Women in Buddhism' by Dr. (Mrs.) L.S. Dewaraja

[Vomit Comet]

Eh, call me intellectually lazy, but I never had any interest in reading up on Buddhism. It's all a big confusing miasma to me. It makes Heidegger, or the later kookier Baudrillard, seem as straightforward and coherent as a Tom Clancy novel. I would only observe the 2nd generation friends I had who came from Buddhist families. It seemed very similar to coming from a heavily Catholic family except with an extra dose of rigid patriarchy, though granted it was probably more cultural than anything to do with Buddha himself.

[Rev R]

Correct me if I am wrong, but the Pali Canon (which I believe is the oldest of the 'Buddhist Scriptures') taught the only truly neutral gender was that of the male and for a woman to obtain enlightenment she had to earn enough karma points to be reincarnated as a man and then reach enlightenment. Or did that notion arise from the mythologies of the Bodhisatvas? (excuse my spelling)

 

The Pali canon is the oldest set of written Buddhist teaching. It is divided into three parts: the sutta pitaka, containing the teachings of the Buddha and a few of his disciples; the vinaya pitaka, rules of monastic life; and the abidharma pitaka, writings on psychology and metaphysics.

 

I'm not familiar with any perscribed gender roles within the sutta pitaka, however the vinaya did differentiate between women and men in how they were to behave in monastic life. On his deathbed, the Buddha instructed the monks to abandon the vinaya precepts that were useless...of course the Buddha wasn't specific about which precepts should be abandoned and the old men apparently couldn't think for themselves so they kept them all and even added new ones.

 

The Japanese abandoned the vinaya precepts in favour of the Bodhisattva precepts found in the Mahayana version of the Brahma Net Sutra. Of course there is a bit of an issue sometimes because the vinaya monks don't always recognize priest of Japanese schools as anything other than laymen.

 

Buddhism makes no claims at being perfect. Buddhism as a religion is corrupt, has been for a very long time. There is a shift away from these cultural elements as the Buddhadharma gains a foothold in the West.

[SWIM]

I think islam is by far the worst. The cry an cry "we not violent!" swear it up and down. But the asshats have more suicidal loonies then any other currently today!

 

For what, 72 virgins? LOL does it even specify they will be human? Might end up with 72 virgin sheep...

[Grandpa Harley]

Eh, call me intellectually lazy, but I never had any interest in reading up on Buddhism. It's all a big confusing miasma to me. It makes Heidegger, or the later kookier Baudrillard, seem as straightforward and coherent as a Tom Clancy novel. I would only observe the 2nd generation friends I had who came from Buddhist families. It seemed very similar to coming from a heavily Catholic family except with an extra dose of rigid patriarchy, though granted it was probably more cultural than anything to do with Buddha himself.

You're intellectually lazy...

[Vomit Comet]

You're intellectually lazy...

 

Guess I asked for it!

[Grandpa Harley]

Yup... nothing more irritating than 'I don't know nuthin' about the subject, but here's my thoughts on the matter in hand...'

[Vomit Comet]

Yup... nothing more irritating than 'I don't know nuthin' about the subject, but here's my thoughts on the matter in hand...'

 

Fair enough. I've got an old philosophy textbook lying around somewhere that goes over the very basics that I'll keep an eye out for. Otherwise, I'll refrain from comment on the matter.

[Seeker630]

I had to vote Scientology. I have a friend who's marriage was destroyed by it. They sucked thousands of dollars out of him, and damn near cleaned out his pension. They gave him nothing in return for it except some useless 'Org classes", and then refused to even give him advanced "auditing" when his health began to fail.

 

When the money ran out-------so did the Scientologists.

 

The higher-ups in that outfit should all be in prison for fraud. The bastards.

[Shion]

Thanks Grandpa Harley for the link, it was very informative. I think I will be doing a web search for the pali canon, and read on. I realize there has been a lot of cultural bleed over in Buddhism, so it is only a matter of sorting it out. I will probably hit the library tomorrow, since it is not open on Sundays.

[MesaGman]

Oda Nobunaga was alarmed at Japanese warrior monks.... http://www.geocities.com/azuchiwind/monks.htm

 

You miss the point I'm trying to make If a religion teaches PEACE and HEALING, and to remove oneself from bad Karma, and suffering. Why inflict this on someone? even in self defense?

 

And I mentioned STEVEN SEGAL! where did you see STALIN? Mr Segal the actor, claims he's some sort of reincarnted monk. But as a Buddist, he stars in movies were problems (yes I know the villians have guns are trying to kill his character), are solved with limb breaking....... But Buddists are suppose to promote peace. I though a learned scholar would know this.... (since you so eloquently mentioned a "Chinese should know this".)

 

There is no need for personal attacks. We can disagree without insulting each other can't we? I don't insult you do I? yet you come and insult me.

[MesaGman]

Anyhow... Shoko Ashahara, was a so called Buddist Monk, and he tried instigate ww3, stockpiled biological and chemical weapons, used psychotropic drugs to control his followers, abused Children, caused a chemical attack on the Tokyo subway. I'm not sure, but when school girls get a face full of sarin buring their eye balls, but that looks like INFLICTING OF SUFFERING. which is against the teachings of SiddhÄrtha Gautama...I'm not sure if killing people and trying to start ww3, a part of the 8 step plan...

[MesaGman]

His Holiness the Dali Lama said: The Dalai Lama is the leader of the Tibetan people and is revered by millions of Buddhists worldwide. At a press conference in 1997-JUN, he commented: "From a Buddhist point of view [lesbian and gay sex]...is generally considered sexual misconduct".--http://www.religioustolerance.org/hom_budd.htm

 

The Dalai Lama was interviewed by CBC News at the time of his visit to Canada during 2007-NOV. Near the end of his interview he was asked whether Buddhism condones love between two men or two women. He replied that Buddhists reject this. Genuine Buddhist practitioners, like Christians, condemn same-sex behavior as sexual misconduct. "So, [it is] not permissible, not allowed." (same source)

 

Even the UFO cult the Raelians, mentioned that it's ok for gay sex.... Voodoo, under the Goddess Erzulie Freda, homosexuals are protected, under Canadian Law homosexuals are protected.

 

I don't understand. How can one show understanding and peace, by condemning them (gays)? Maybe His Holiness the Dali Lama isn't a man of peace after all, just speculating on this strange inconsistency.... He wants freedom for his people the Tibetans, yet he can't give the blessing for gays to be free to marry who they love. Kind of a double standard.

[Deva]

I must step in and go on record as saying that there are violent and destructive people who are members of all religions. There are hypocrites everywhere. Is that reason in itself to reject a religious philosophy that has truth and value at its core? I don't think so, and I did not deconvert from Christianity because of destructive people in that religion. MesaGman, I don't think the historical record shows nearly the level of violence in Buddhism as in other religions such as Islam and Christianity.

 

You seem to be ignoring the other posters who have made the point that Buddhism has been overlayed by the cultures it is in. Now you are attacking the Dalai Lama, who does not represent the whole of Buddhism by any means. Also, I really think the Dalai Lama has many positive qualities which of course you fail to mention. You just want to zero in on one objectionable thing one Buddhist leader said and use it to condemn the whole of Buddhism. This is unfair. It would be roughly the equivelant of your saying the Pope's offhand comment at a press conference represents the views of all of Christianity. Your comparison with the Raelians is specious and irrelevant.

 

I don't see your objections to the underlying philosophy of Buddhism. If you have any, I would be interested in hearing them.

[Rev R]

I think GMan's argument needs it's own thread. The criticisms do warrant discussion.

 

However, I do find the fact that Steven Segal's movies figure so greatly into your criticism to be a little funny. Should we also judge Buddhism via Jet Li's films, should we judge Paganism through Godsmack's music (Sully is a pagan I hear), should we judge Scientology by Tom Cruise's films?

[Grandpa Harley]

Oda Nobunaga was alarmed at Japanese warrior monks.... http://www.geocities.com/azuchiwind/monks.htm

 

You miss the point I'm trying to make If a religion teaches PEACE and HEALING, and to remove oneself from bad Karma, and suffering. Why inflict this on someone? even in self defense?

 

And I mentioned STEVEN SEGAL! where did you see STALIN? Mr Segal the actor, claims he's some sort of reincarnted monk. But as a Buddist, he stars in movies were problems (yes I know the villians have guns are trying to kill his character), are solved with limb breaking....... But Buddists are suppose to promote peace. I though a learned scholar would know this.... (since you so eloquently mentioned a "Chinese should know this".)

 

There is no need for personal attacks. We can disagree without insulting each other can't we? I don't insult you do I? yet you come and insult me.

 

Yes, you mentioned Steven Segal, who is as buddhist as I'm Jain and paid well for his tulku status... it wasn't really worth responding to....

 

 

Who mentioned Stalin?

[Grandpa Harley]

I think GMan's argument needs it's own thread. The criticisms do warrant discussion.

 

However, I do find the fact that Steven Segal's movies figure so greatly into your criticism to be a little funny. Should we also judge Buddhism via Jet Li's films, should we judge Paganism through Godsmack's music (Sully is a pagan I hear), should we judge Scientology by Tom Cruise's films?

 

Jet Li is a Vajrayana Buddhist and has been some years. The playing of a violent character does not reflect on the person... unless Westboro had a point that Heath Ledger deserved death for playing a homosexual...

 

[Grandpa Harley]

Anyhow... Shoko Ashahara, was a so called Buddist Monk, and he tried instigate ww3, stockpiled biological and chemical weapons, used psychotropic drugs to control his followers, abused Children, caused a chemical attack on the Tokyo subway. I'm not sure, but when school girls get a face full of sarin buring their eye balls, but that looks like INFLICTING OF SUFFERING. which is against the teachings of SiddhÄrtha Gautama...I'm not sure if killing people and trying to start ww3, a part of the 8 step plan...

 

 

Ashahara isn't buddhist in any recognizable sense. It's like claiming the David Koresh was a representative Branch Davidian with the incest,killing people and claiming to be Jesus returned, or Jim Jones is a typical Baptist with the poisoned Kool Aid, rapes and punishment beatings...

 

There have always been nutters, and there always will be nutters... as you point out, the Aum teaching diverged so wildly from the teaching of Siddartha Gautama as to be unrecognisable...

 

I'm not sure i follow your point the all Buddhists are bastards based on one Japanese version of Charles Manson (with the charm and looks removed)

[Grandpa Harley]

In the end I can only point the poster back to

 

Trust in no man's words. Trust not in the words of scripture, the writings of old, the texts of "prophets." Do not be misled by those proficient in quoting scripture nor after reflection on mere opinion or theory. The purpose of man is not to waste one's life attempting to reach some imaginary heaven to be with some imaginary god.

Be happy to know that the world simply is, that man simply is.

 

If one doesn't like the teaching (like me and that one by the Dalai Lama) then I just plain ignore it... no one in Buddhism is going to tell you that they're guaranteed 'right', and if they do they ain't Buddhists... but of course, I could well be wrong, so feel free to ignore that... and that.... and that... and...