Why Do You Remain A Christian?

[Guest Valk0010]

 

I noticed a reply right after this on creation. Even physicists have a term for earthlike planets: GOLDILOCKS Planets of which so far the earth is the only one (of course no one knows about the other billions of planets), but the earth is perfect for life. Any slight changes in any physical constant, and lief would not be sustainable. Also, (sorry, just a faith thing). Hearing from God directly? Nope

The main issue with the fine tuning arguement, is A if its use as a proof for anything more the deism then one has to account for biological imperfection(it can't). The second main issue is that it assumes that we have to exist or be here, or the universe had to fall into place this way. It could have just as easily been nothing or us having wings. To say existence is improbable one has to consider only what we have now as existence. See anthropic principal. Just because it was so incredibly improbable to existence it may not even be able to happen twice, doesn't mean anything more then that.

[mcdaddy]

With respect to TexasFreethinker's post in the Lion's Den, I'm starting a part 2 version of his question which spawned probably the most read thread on this site with over 41,150 views, and 1,576 responses on 79 pages. It was finally closed due to sheer size, but it seems a question that obviously continued to spark many discussions from many responders. Therefore I'm reposting his original question here in the Colosseum to re-open the question for continued responses and discussions.

 

TexasFreethinker's original question:

 

 

In the spirit of understanding (rather than debating), I'd like to ask another question of the Christians who are members or guests of this site.

 

Why are you still a Christian, in spite of the evidence and logic to the contrary that's been presented here?

 

What I'm trying to understand is what maintains your belief - on what basis do you continue to believe?

 

If you take a close look at why you are a believer does it come down to reason, evidence, a gut feeling, do you think you are hearing directly from your god, etc? I think most Christians would have to admit that there are strong reasons to disbelieve, but there must be something that is keeping you on the side of belief. What is that, exactly?

 

I'm hoping for answers more explicit than "I have faith". I'm interested in why you have faith.

 

 

I noticed a reply right after this on creation. Even physicists have a term for earthlike planets: GOLDILOCKS Planets of which so far the earth is the only one (of course no one knows about the other billions of planets), but the earth is perfect for life. Any slight changes in any physical constant, and lief would not be sustainable. Also, (sorry, just a faith thing). Hearing from God directly? Nope

 

So was the hole created to perfectly fit the puddle, or does the puddle adapt to fit the hole?

 

We evolved to fit the parameters. The parameters werent tinkered with to allow us.

 

There are literally billions of other planets out there. Probably trillions or wuadrillions. You think we're the only one with life? That's pretty arrogant. ESP considering xianity is wrong about science at every turn.

[antix]

With respect to TexasFreethinker's post in the Lion's Den, I'm starting a part 2 version of his question which spawned probably the most read thread on this site with over 41,150 views, and 1,576 responses on 79 pages. It was finally closed due to sheer size, but it seems a question that obviously continued to spark many discussions from many responders. Therefore I'm reposting his original question here in the Colosseum to re-open the question for continued responses and discussions.

 

TexasFreethinker's original question:

 

 

 

In the spirit of understanding (rather than debating), I'd like to ask another question of the Christians who are members or guests of this site.

 

Why are you still a Christian, in spite of the evidence and logic to the contrary that's been presented here?

 

What I'm trying to understand is what maintains your belief - on what basis do you continue to believe?

 

If you take a close look at why you are a believer does it come down to reason, evidence, a gut feeling, do you think you are hearing directly from your god, etc? I think most Christians would have to admit that there are strong reasons to disbelieve, but there must be something that is keeping you on the side of belief. What is that, exactly?

 

I'm hoping for answers more explicit than "I have faith". I'm interested in why you have faith.

 

 

I noticed a reply right after this on creation. Even physicists have a term for earthlike planets: GOLDILOCKS Planets of which so far the earth is the only one (of course no one knows about the other billions of planets), but the earth is perfect for life. Any slight changes in any physical constant, and lief would not be sustainable. Also, (sorry, just a faith thing). Hearing from God directly? Nope

 

So was the hole created to perfectly fit the puddle, or does the puddle adapt to fit the hole?

 

We evolved to fit the parameters. The parameters werent tinkered with to allow us.

 

There are literally billions of other planets out there. Probably trillions or wuadrillions. You think we're the only one with life? That's pretty arrogant. ESP considering xianity is wrong about science at every turn.

 

Arrogant, I can assure you no one in real life says that about me. Are we the only one with life? I sthere evidence for life elsewhere (obviously aliens cannot travel light yrs, but are there radio signals etc that would prove intelligent life?, as for primative live 2000 light yrs away, we will never knoiw)

[Guest Valk0010]

Hey stranger here it is:

 

Even if the gospels and paul's reference in 1st Corinthan's to the resurrection are the most reliable historical documents in human history. They only prove, that they believed they saw Jesus appear to them and they believed by there experiences that he rose from the dead and did miracles etc. The most generous view one could give to the gospels is that, we don't know why they believed that they experienced but we can only say that they believed that they experienced things like that. Mystery doesn't require you believing this happened. I don't know for example that there is aliens, I don't know where those experiences come from. However I don't believe in them. In this case the miracles of jesus can be treated the same way.

 

My reasoning for that. Unless historical apologetics can by itself overcome the various reasons to not believe in god(like as a example the problem of evil or the lack of a need for god in design), that even if historical apologetics could prove reliability of those sources (they can't but that is a different argument) then it does not follow logically then historical apologetics arguments for things like the resurrection can prove there case, because without a god, no miracles can happen. One can just be left with historical mystery.

 

This would be the same even if jesus fulfilled all of the prophecies (he didn't). There is a thing called the composition fallacy. Part of a whole of something can't prove a whole. If there is other good reasons to not believe in a theistic god then even something like fulfilling prophecy can't be seen as anything other then improbable odds or possible ex post facto(after the fact) reasoning on the part of the gospels writers.

 

Notice my choice in terminology however before you start your attack, I did not use the word "inerrancy." Historical reliability is not the same thing,as being totally error free and accurate. Though inerrancy is fairly easy to disprove. But hopefully you understand my point.

 

I was hoping possible, since more or less this is a blurb on what I think about historical apologetics, historical arguments to prove the resurrection and things like that. You could show how this is wrong and how historical apologetics indeed proves what I think is its presupposition that there is a god that is christian.

[centauri]

Hey cent. Hope all is good. When relating to the servant being Israel, how do you compute Isaiah 52:13 and 14. Also, concerning the pretense of 53:12, is it not in the same context as the last of chapture 52 and entirety of 53? Thus set in context, at the time of writting was still to be.

I will comment on the other scripture in a bit. Thanks for the verse.

The servant being Israel computes as follows:

Israel was clearly defined as being the servant in Isa 49.

 

Isa 52 addresses Zion, which is a word for Jewish people / Israel.

 

Isa 52:1-2

Awake, awake; put on thy strength, O Zion; put on thy beautiful garments, O Jerusalem, the holy city: for henceforth there shall no more come into thee the uncircumcised and the unclean.

Shake thyself from the dust; arise, and sit down, O Jerusalem: loose thyself from the bands of thy neck, O captive daughter of Zion.

 

The eventual restoration of beaten and captive Israel would astonish the gentile nations and their kings, which ties right back to Isa 48:10 and Isa 49:7 with its portrayal of an afflicted, despised servant.

Isa 48:10

Behold, I have refined thee (Israel), but not with silver; I have chosen thee in the furnace of affliction.

 

Isa 52:12-15

For ye shall not go out with haste, nor go by flight: for the Lord will go before you; and the God of Israel will be your reward.

Behold, my servant shall deal prudently, he shall be exalted and extolled, and be very high.

As many were astonied at thee; his visage was so marred more than any man, and his form more than the sons of men:

So shall he sprinkle many nations; the kings shall shut their mouths at him: for that which had not been told them shall they see; and that which they had not heard shall they consider.

 

The same theme carries over into Isa 53.

 

Israel is the suffering servant and would be a light to the gentile nations:

 

Isa 41:8-9

But thou, Israel, art my servant, Jacob whom I have chosen, the seed of Abraham my friend.

Thou whom I have taken from the ends of the earth, and called thee from the chief men thereof, and said unto thee, Thou art my servant; I have chosen thee, and not cast thee away.

 

Isa 42:1-2,6

Behold my servant (Israel), whom I uphold; mine elect, in whom my soul delighteth; I have put my spirit upon him: he shall bring forth judgment to the Gentiles.

He shall not cry, nor lift up, nor cause his voice to be heard in the street.

I the Lord have called thee in righteousness, and will hold thine hand, and will keep thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, for a light of the Gentiles;

[Spectrox]

Stranger's posts are dripping with intellectual and moral cowardice of the most profound kind. Maybe I should follow my mother's advice and not talk to Strangers?

 

Yeah, we're an unsavory bunch.

 

What's with all this Stranger business? I'm surrounded by Strangers! First there's Stranger then Rank Stranger!

 

My Mum was right. I shouldn't be talking to any of you.

[Spectrox]

With respect to TexasFreethinker's post in the Lion's Den, I'm starting a part 2 version of his question which spawned probably the most read thread on this site with over 41,150 views, and 1,576 responses on 79 pages. It was finally closed due to sheer size, but it seems a question that obviously continued to spark many discussions from many responders. Therefore I'm reposting his original question here in the Colosseum to re-open the question for continued responses and discussions.

 

TexasFreethinker's original question:

 

 

 

In the spirit of understanding (rather than debating), I'd like to ask another question of the Christians who are members or guests of this site.

 

Why are you still a Christian, in spite of the evidence and logic to the contrary that's been presented here?

 

What I'm trying to understand is what maintains your belief - on what basis do you continue to believe?

 

If you take a close look at why you are a believer does it come down to reason, evidence, a gut feeling, do you think you are hearing directly from your god, etc? I think most Christians would have to admit that there are strong reasons to disbelieve, but there must be something that is keeping you on the side of belief. What is that, exactly?

 

I'm hoping for answers more explicit than "I have faith". I'm interested in why you have faith.

 

 

I noticed a reply right after this on creation. Even physicists have a term for earthlike planets: GOLDILOCKS Planets of which so far the earth is the only one (of course no one knows about the other billions of planets), but the earth is perfect for life. Any slight changes in any physical constant, and lief would not be sustainable. Also, (sorry, just a faith thing). Hearing from God directly? Nope

 

So was the hole created to perfectly fit the puddle, or does the puddle adapt to fit the hole?

 

We evolved to fit the parameters. The parameters werent tinkered with to allow us.

 

There are literally billions of other planets out there. Probably trillions or wuadrillions. You think we're the only one with life? That's pretty arrogant. ESP considering xianity is wrong about science at every turn.

 

Arrogant, I can assure you no one in real life says that about me. Are we the only one with life? I sthere evidence for life elsewhere (obviously aliens cannot travel light yrs, but are there radio signals etc that would prove intelligent life?, as for primative live 2000 light yrs away, we will never knoiw)

 

The Strong Anthropic Principle? We don't have any evidence to support the assertion that the Universe knew we were coming and made provision in its design.

 

All we know is that in our Galaxy there are about 100 billion stars and in the observable universe there are a hundred billion galaxies. So the number of stars in the observable universe is 10^22 which is a fracking big number.

 

The likelihood of intelligent life capable of communicating to us is described by the Drake Equation. One of the parameters we have managed to put a number on during the last 20 years of discoveries. We know that almost every star forms planets. The other parameters we can only guess at so the amount of intelligent life in the universe could be millions or it could be just us.

 

If we are physically alone in the universe, this still doesn't provide evidence for a creator God. Nor does it say anything about the character of that God if it exists.

 

The God Hypothesis is mistaking "probability" for "inevitability after the event".

[LoneTarus]

Lone Tarus, thanks for replying. You seem to place rebellion on a level with good decisions and respecting others. Jobs, households and life all have someone we must be subject to if we want to have a productive caring life. I know many of the rebelloius, and I don't hang with then because they only look out for themselves with no benifit to anyone, even themselves.

 

I think you really glossed over everything I had to say. In particular you should look at those twilight zone clips. That has been mine and a few other's experiences with God. Having to control our thoughts and pretend that every bad thing that happens is Good and Just because everything ultimately is God's Will. and we MUST NOT question God's Will. even if it is truly an evil and horrible thing. just because an authority does something that not automatically make it right.

 

When I talk about rebelling against/disobeying God I'm not talking about being a rebel just for the sake of going against all the rules and being totally selfish. I'm talking about being able to exercise free will and think for myself. the power to judge what is right and wrong based on reality and not an ancient bronze age book. I'm free to question everything and make my own moral choices. Bible God does not give you free will. his choice is between total obedience and complete 100% unquestioning faith no matter how wrong the things you believe in are or death. You aren't allowed to think that maybe God wasn't so good to do some of the things he did. (just like in the twilight zone clips) our he might wish you into the corn field (oops I mean hell, sorry)

 

I don't need God to be a moral caring human being. and if God is only judging me by what I believe instead of what is in my heart and my real actions towards others. then he is neither Just nor Good and I have no reason to follow him.

 

Thankfully I have seen and experienced enough to know the Bible is all bullshit so I'm not really afraid anymore of going to hell.

There may or may not be a higher power out there, and there also may or may not be some sort of judgment. but Even if you could prove that God is real you can't prove that the Bible is true or that it's image of God has anything to do with reality. I would rather remain agnostic and live my life to the best of my ability and try to have as much of a positive impact on this world by the time I'm finished and hope God is not a malignant sociopathic narcissist like the Bible makes him out to be or we are all screwed despite what you think about the crucifixion of Jesus (if he ever really existed).

[the stranger]

Spectrox, not all strangers are strange, but I know I am. lol Don't worry though, I don't have a car or candy. I think I'm safe. chuckle. Good to meet you.

 

Zalk, thanks for that topic. You made some valid points. Give me just a short time to throughly go through and research. It could be fun. thanks.

 

Cents, thanks for responding. Give just a short while to respond.

[the stranger]

Lone Tarus, thanks for furthure explanation. I see your points more clearly now. forgive, but I might be in a short delay in response. I really want to throughly think and research these questions so I can answere with more than a cracker Jack box answere so to speak. I will respond ASAP

[the stranger]

I apoligize guys, because I do not want to do the mistake of last time in making promises I never completed as time and responses seemed to keep me too busy. I love debating, not because I consider myself that smart, but I love learning new things all the time. By saying that I am not trying to down play myself but just to admit there are many more thing I do not know than what I do know and debating gives me that oppertunity to learn. In saying that, sometimes I take on too much.

 

I want to make sure I get everyone I promised things too accomplished. Because of this, The first thing I am going to do is research monkey men (lol) so me and ourborus can talk a little on what I wanted to study for some time. Next I want to throughly go through Cits letter and than reply with some understanding and knowledge. After this, I want to continue with Zalk, Cents, and the rest of you all.

I will be moving to the blue grass state next week so my time will also be more limited than I would like it to be.

I apoligize in advance for my delayed responsis, as I want nothing more than to discuss everyone of them.

 

Thank you every one for your patience in this matter. If I do it any other way I will never get accomplished what I promised. Thank you every one for understanding.

[mcdaddy]

You have a lot on your plate to figure out. The answers will come in time, if you'll truly be open and honest with yourself.

[Adam5]

The answers will come in time, if you'll truly be open and honest with yourself.

 

Thats the key thing. As Christians we were always lying to ourselves. Being honest about religion is difficult when you have been programmed through a lifetime of indoctrination, and self-indoctrination.

[♦ ficino ♦]

Ficeno, Please understand it is us who make the decision to accept or reject Christ. To blame God is like your kids blaming you for their disobedience.

 

 

No one is questioning whether humans make decisions. You haven't grappled with what scripture says about predestination. That discussion is part of the bigger discussion earlier in this thread about the problem of evil, with which you haven't grappled except to say (without scriptural support) that creatures have "free will." The free will of creatures, not in the sense of decision making but in the sense that their decisions are not controlled by God, is not taught in the bible. God's sovereignty and predestination is taught.

[bornagainathiest]

Born again, perhaps, just perhaps, your more on the money than I thought. I believe that God is real. Is God real? fact or fiction? You say fiction and I say fact, but you know what? You are right. We cannot change absalute facts. Trouble is, we won't know for site until after we die. If God is fact, and you were wrong, then what? If I am wrong, OK, so I lived a life serving others instead of myself. No one looses. Point being, even 'facts' are just ipions until proven beyond a shadow of doubt.

 

Talk to you later and look forward to more lessons. You truly are gifted.

 

Thank you for the compliment Stranger.

 

To answer your earlier question... No, I'm not and never have been any kind of a teacher. I'm just an ordinary Joe who won't put up with bs any longer. As far as I can see, you have been heavily indoctrinated with Christian propaganda (the bs) and you often accept something as 'true' just because the Bible or another Christian says it. You never seem to check your beliefs against the facts. Sorry, but folks here don't do that any more. We've learned to think for ourselves. We check and test everything we can to see if it's really true. You can learn to do this too, if you really want it bad enough. Ok?

 

Btw, McDaddy and Citsonga are right on target.

What you've written above (which I've highlighted) is almost exactly Pascal's Wager. Please look that up and also please follow Citsonga's link to the letter he recommends you to read. Thanks.

 

Also, I can see that you still want to pick and choose what you want to call the 'facts'. You still want to choose what is true. Sorry, but it's the other way round. It's the facts that tell us what is true and what isn't. All we can do is to accept them or deny them. I can tell that you are struggling with denial here Stranger. Otherwise, you wouldn't write this...

"Point being, even 'facts' are just ipions until proven beyond a shadow of doubt."

 

What you've done is replace the word 'beliefs' with 'opinions', that's all.

Sorry again, but that's just wrong and it doesn't work either. As I can prove to you now. Do you remember what I said about two unchangeable (that is, absolute) facts? The fact that I'm 53 and the fact that you will die? I said that it makes no difference what you and I believe about these two things, right? I can't change the fact of my true age and you can't change the fact of your death, simply by choosing to believe something else. I can't be 530, no matter how much I want to believe I am and you can't avoid death, no matter how much you want to believe you can. The facts stay the facts and can't be changed by us in any way. Now, hold that last thought and read these two statements.

 

It's my opinion that my age is 530 and not 53.

It's my opinion that the Stranger will never die.

 

Not so different from these two, are they?

 

It's my belief that my age is 530 and not 53.

It's my belief that the Stranger will never die.

 

All I've done here is to copy your trick of replacing the word 'belief' with 'opinion'. (Wags finger in the Stranger's direction. Tut! Tut!) Simply swapping one word for another doesn't change reality. You see, if it's my opinion that my age is 530, then a quick look at the facts will easily show that my opinion is wrong. If I really am 530, then I was born in the year 1482 - ten years before Christopher Columbus sailed across the Atlantic. That's not true! It just can't be true! It's impossible! So my opinion about my age must be mistaken. My belief about my age must be wrong! Beliefs and opinions can be wrong because humans make mistakes.

 

Do you see how the it's facts tell us what's true and what isn't, not our beliefs or our opinions?

 

Let's take another example.

If it's my opinion that the Stranger will never die, then a quick look at the facts will easily show that my opinion is wrong.

Is there any evidence that humans live forever? The answer is, of course, No. Even the Stranger accepts the fact of his own death, so there's no point in looking any further. Death is a natural and inevitable fact of life. So, my opinion about the Stranger must be mistaken. My opinion must be wrong. Opinions and beliefs can be wrong because people do make mistakes.

 

Do you see how swapping the word 'opinion' for 'belief' doesn't change anything, Stranger? The facts stay the same and we don't have the power to alter them. You can use other words if you like. It doesn't make any difference.

Here's a bunch of other words you can swap with the word 'belief'.

 

acceptance, admission, assent, assumption, assurance, avowal, axiom, certainty, conclusion, confidence, conjecture, conviction, credence, credit, deduction, divination, expectation, faith, fancy, feeling, guess, hope, hypothesis, idea, impression, intuition, judgment, knowledge, mind, mindset, notion, opinion, persuasion, position, postulation, presumption, presupposition, profession, reliance, supposition, surmise, suspicion, theorem, theory, thesis, thinking, trust, understanding, view

 

So I can write...

I assume that my age is 530. I conclude that my age is 530. I have faith that my age is 530. I hypothesize that my age is 530. I judge that my age is 530. I am persuaded that my age is 530. I presume that my age is 530. I suppose my age is 530. I surmise my is 530. I suspect my age is 530. I theorize that my age is 530. I think my age is 530. I trust that my age is 530.

 

...and every one of these would be... wrong. My age stays at 53, no matter what words I use. I can't change that fact.

This applies to you too, Stranger. You can hypothesize, presume, surmise or write anything you like about the fact of your death, but just swapping the words around doesn't change the fact. You WILL die. That's an absolute and unchangeable fact.

 

So, please understand that whatever you believe to be true could be wrong. You're human and humans make mistakes. We all mess up. But if you really want a surefire way of checking your beliefs to see if they're true, I'd start with the way you look at the facts. So long as you keep on denying that it's the facts that tell us what is true, you won't have any way of testing and checking anything. Just let the facts be that facts and let what you believe be your beliefs. If your beliefs really are true, then once you check and test them, the facts will prove it.

 

Thanks,

 

BAA.

[the stranger]

Ficino, to name a few scriptures that I believe firmly imply free will or choice please see Joshua 24:15; Ezekiel 18:4,5,9 ; 2 Timothy 2:11-13; John 15:5-6; 2 Peter 2:20-22. Thanks.

 

When going through these questions as I discussed with the order, I am already in the process of learning more on both sides of evelution and the inbetween stages. I will try very very hard to look carefully on each side and not until then to weigh the evedence. I hopefully will have my first start up within a couple days, but I really want to give myself ample time so it may even be a bit longer. Hopefully when I respond back I may see things a little more from your points and can address harsh questions that may come along with this view, and vice verca.

Thanks guys

[Guest Valk0010]

Ohh and stranger once you get to mine, it might help to look up the concept of "prior probability."

[the stranger]

thanks for your insight Born again. I am certainly going to my best to aim future responses with hopefully absalute facts that are agreed upon by both sides. PS Maybe you should of been a teacher -- or maybe, just maybe, you are with out knowing it

[the stranger]

got that Valk. will do

[mcdaddy]

BAA is my sunday scruel teacher!

[Guest Valk0010]

I am just fixing up my grammer a little cause I phrased a few things poorly and I don't have a edit button on these posts:

Its another case of distinction without a difference. Disobedience is a choice and evil is evil and evil is supposedly a choice so disobedience has to be evil. Your comment here is basically nonsensical.

 

I would add, if god hates disobedience and evil then disobedience has to be evil.

 

The most generous view one could give to the gospels is that, we don't know why they believed what they experienced but we can only say that they believed that they experienced things like that. Mystery doesn't require you believing this happened. I don't know for example that there are aliens, I don't know where those experiences come from. However I don't believe in them. In this case the miracles of jesus can be treated the same way.

 

 

There you go. Fuck, you do this stuff on a smart phone. Wow I bad. I am amazed that you can do what you can do. But now I got that cleared up, yay.

[Guest Valk0010]

got that Valk. will do

Here is a good article on it as it relates to the resurrection

 

http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/jeff_lowder/jesus_resurrection/chap3.html

[Akheia]

I think it's funny that Stranger thinks he'll have lost nothing if it turns out his belief is not true. To the contrary, he's risking losing everything by following this toxic religion. The only life we know for sure we will have is this one, and Stranger is risking losing a life HE wanted to lead instead of what an ancient book of fairy tales, interpreted by mistake-prone and agenda-driven control-freak men, purportedly says he's supposed to lead. "Serving others" is just Christianese for "doing busy work for the church," because you certainly can volunteer or make a difference in the world without bending knee to Yahweh. If the church is based on a lie, then the busy work done for it is also service done to a lie. I don't have time to waste on lies anymore.

 

I also think it's fucking hilarious to watch Christians try to use logic to justify their beliefs. But then again, it's all they have now. In the good old days, Yahweh proved his existence by healing amputees and blind people and lepers, by raising the dead, by sending pillars of flame from the sky. In the myths, nobody doubted God's existence because he was always there ("How Can I Miss You If You Won't Go Away" as the song goes, right?). He didn't seem to mind in the least throwing his power and majesty around. He's gotten all complacent and lazy in the marriage now, I guess. Now his pets are forced to using leaps of convoluted irrationality and logical fallacies to try to force themselves to huddle down to his level again.

 

The more facts we learn about our world and ourselves, the less room there is for a magic sky daddy. Little wonder that kids aren't taught anymore about how we KNOW something is true and not just our opinion--it's hardly to Christianity's benefit if people learn critical thinking skills. (PS: Stranger, they're right. You really have no idea what a fact really is. BAA has some good info for you; please educate yourself.)

[centauri]

Ficino, to name a few scriptures that I believe firmly imply free will or choice please see Joshua 24:15; Ezekiel 18:4,5,9 ; 2 Timothy 2:11-13; John 15:5-6; 2 Peter 2:20-22. Thanks.

I think clarificaton is needed here because so many Christians blatantly misuse the word "free".

Free will or free choice implies that the decision making process isn't manipulated by coercion or fear based ultimatums.

Free means without charge.

This is not what the Bible God gives.

The Bible God gives conditional choice (when he isn't engaging in predestination).

Failure to comply results in damnation, hellfire, punishment, etc.

 

The mafia also gives conditional choice, where punishment is handed out for the failure to make a particular decision.

I don't think you would consider the mafia a grantor of free will.

The mafia gives ultimatums.

 

Your example of scripture that implies free will is seriously flawed.

 

Behold:

John 15:5-6

I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.

If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.

 

Failure to comply with the ultimatum of Jesus results in terrible punishment.

This isn't free will at all, it's coercion through threats and fear.

[the stranger]

There is most certainly more to talk about concerning free will. Some valid points have been made as such. Truth though, if free will was truly had, with or with out religion, we would all be in trouble. Every action we make in this 'free world' has results. Bad decisions lead to bad results, like prison or worse. By looking at God and saying, He gives us free will, Him or hell, it is true in part. In part, this is true of all free will. If free will is defined is free from results than certainly that definition could never apply here. Someone has a choice to enjoy their sick fantasies and raping a little girl. This is free will, right? However, that does not mean there are no results. And in fact, with that definition of free will, there could be no justice, could there? Free will in your definition is chaos, rude and controlling behavoir that never has to worry about accountability. Using free will in relationship to a free box at a yard sale is, as they say, comparing apples to, well, my ol favorite, bananas. If every one had this 'free' will than nobody would truly be free or have free will. Hell, in a Christians description, as a place made not for humans, but for Satan and his angels. If a son, from a Christian prospective, rebells against his father year after year by always disobeying, lying, stealing, never learning and never appreciate of things the father has given, what happens when this boy becomes an adult? If training and punishment had no effect on the sons attitude, what will happen. knowing this kid will never get a job or be able to live on his own, or be a use for the world, and at the same time not being able to live in his fathers house due to age, trying to be the one in control, causing trouble in the house and never accepting responsibility, then only one alternitive is left. The son must be kicked out of his fathers place and fend for himself on the streets, hopefully to learn. At the end, if even this has no avail, most likely he will die an early death and be bitter his whole life. Even if his father knew what decisions would be made but showed great love and mercy just the same, is it his fathers fault? Hell is a place designed for Satan and his followers. At the end, if we cannot be with our Father, where else is there to go?

 

I have got much study done as today was a day off, so I will start posting, at least in part, in reguards to evolution, as after reading much on both sides of the fence, as well as ape men and fossils.

thanks for reading