Terrorist Attack In Mumbai

[Guest end3]

Yeah. That's you. God have favorites. During the last 10 years of my faith I needed God to reveal himself, but he never did. Not until I took fate in my own hands and fight using my own power, and stop trusting some imaginary creature to intervene, would things turn around. Now I'm fighting in my own power, and get results. (I'm having yet another one next week. Something that escalated the last couple of months, and now we're going to court hearing again... my sons case have not stopped being an issue... and we're now going on 12 years. God has still not done any miracles, besides proving that strength comes from humans, good or bad.)

 

Well, the next time you need emotional strength, I am sure now that it is all in the correct diet, as it is purely chemical reactions.....the chemicals I take for my bad humor leave me tired and not even the energy to argue. Please find something healthy I can injest, as I hear these are bad for my liver as well.

 

Eh? Seriously, you haven't touched my "soul" in any sense to make a point about Jesus or give me the "chills" and think that, "oh, Jesus must be real," or something like that. So yeah, I think my statement is valid. If you believe that you somehow are getting through to us and some spooky action of spiritual essence is moving us, you really are fooling yourself. Basically, it's not working, God isn't moving me or talking to me or touching me or anything. You might wish he did. But seriously, I'm not feeling any influence. (I do feel a bit bloated from the great dinner last night, but that's about it. And a bit sleepy. But I couldn't sleep, because I'm planning strategies for next week. My head is going around and putting pieces together, like what I'm going to say to the judge.)

 

You are the one who twice now has mentioned I am not getting through to your soul....I don't remember even trying...

 

No, in the history of Christianity. Have you read any history books about the last 2,000 years, and what Christianity really has brought to the world? Do you seriously believe Christianity has been a blessing to the world and is any different or any better than other religions? You might say, "they were not true Christians," but I have a hard time accepting that, because for 1,000 years the Catholic Church was largest, and most united power and faith, and it was the Church that brought you the Bible. It is the Church from where you come. It is the mother of your Church. Luther came from the Catholic Church. Just because he took what he felt was the better parts, and threw away other parts, doesn't make his views of what the "True Church" is any more true than the original. The Catholic Church was the Body of Christ for a very long time, until secular philosophy and science started to break it apart and bring in some light and humanity again.

 

The point is Hans, it is in the history of Christianity, and not in the history of Christ,.....gheez, guy.

 

 

Christianity isn't only about "hope", but about imagination and delusional beliefs in some just God who wants all good for you but let you suffer anyway. To have hope in general is just having hope and isn't a sickness, but to spread ideas that causes strife between humans are causing harm on humanity. That is a sickness on the Body of Humanity, which is larger than your Body of Christ. And the Body of Humanity is suffering, because of religious intolerance and hatred. Your thread here is about a terrorist attack based on religious intolerance and differences. Do you think Christianity would solve the world problems if everyone in the world were forced to believe in it? If we would as a "Christian Nation" go to a religious war and bomb all "evil" terrorists in the world, and force all countries to become Christian, have we then solved the problem? Or is the answer that we should force the right to believe whatever we want without someone forcing us?

 

You still don't get it, it would be the other "brothers" who had let you suffer....why would God need to enact a miracle or present Himself when He is supposed to be standing right there with you as your neighbor? Did this happen or not? Are you part of an organization now or do you "know better"? Are you spending adnormal amounts of time educating yourself to be the "power of one"? Where is the unified effort of unbelievers, where is the Muslims in action helping supply human needs.....And I don't ever, in my lifetime, remember, food drops from cargo planes coming from other nations or religious organizations to drop food here in the dreaded USofA.....

[Guest end3]

In a moral world, there would be no need for defense....like in Heaven.

 

If God can't make a perfectly moral world here, why trust him with heaven? Anyway heaven can't be a moral place because it is not a just place. The raping preacher who believes can get in, but the rapee that can't believe because god failed her can't get in.

 

In addition heaven can't be a moral place, because, I'm supposing, God won't allow sin there. If you can't sin you can't be moral. Is a tree moral? It never sins. So I doubt it. In order for heaven to be a moral place God must allow sin. If heaven were sinless because of the morals of the people there then there is no reason God can't choose to have only moral people born upon the earth making the earth as moral as heaven.

 

Problem is, End, you just never think these things trough. "Heaven is a perfect place." That is the end of your thoughts on the matter. The same goes for your idea on the church being the body of Christ. If the church is Christ on earth then Christ is a sinner, weak, incompetent, gay, an adulterer, a liar, a cheat, and so on and on. You use this concept to explain the absence of God but you don't take your thoughts far enough. In point of fact God is absent because God is not. This is the simplest and therefore the best explanation. It doesn't require any convoluted thinking to understand.

 

Not my concept....an inspired Paul?

 

Fuck Paul. Here is another case of your non-thinking. Paul is not an original disciple. Paul is the one that started your church. Paul fought with the original disciples calling them Judaizers, and expected people not to follow them. If Paul was inspired, rather than nuts, then this means that Jesus wasn't competent enough to choose and train his revelators while on earth. If Paul wasn't inspired and just took over then Christianity has been dead since before it started.

 

You too, please read the post submitted to Ms. Deva.

 

I read it. You still choose Rambo because you know in your heart of hearts in the depths of your uncharted (and apparently unconscious) being that God will not act. And God will not act, because God cannot act, else why not say "let go and let God" about the matter? Why not say "return good for evil," like you are told to? I say that you don't say them because you know in your heart of hearts in the depths of your uncharted (and apparently unconscious) being that this is bullshit.

 

You're not even warranting good conversation anymore Chef, because you are soo damn one sided now....if you want the honest truth, I am finding Hans' ideas as well as some of my own conclusions that this God being cares for all humanity and does not just "fix" the elect. Continue limiting your mind....you are doing a pretty good job already....

[Ouroboros]

Well, the next time you need emotional strength, I am sure now that it is all in the correct diet, as it is purely chemical reations.....the chemicals I take for my bad humor leave me tired and not even the energy to argue. Please find something healthy I can injest, as I hear these are bad for my liver as well.

Oh, so were joking before? I think you need to work on your delivery then man!! Sorry if I took you serious where you just meant to be funny.

 

You are the one who twice now has mentioned I am not getting through to your soul....I don't remember even trying...

Then I must have misunderstood you in the earlier post when I started saying it.

 

The point is Hans, it is in the history of Christianity, and not in the history of Christ,.....gheez, guy.

??? Yeah, we keep on missing each other, because I don't see the difference if we would assume that Christians are the Body of Christ, which would mean the history of Christians is the history of the Body of Christ, and Christianity is the collection of Christians. So they all are the same.

 

 

You still don't get it, it would be the other "brothers" who had let you suffer....why would God need to enact a miracle or present Himself when He is supposed to be standing right there with you as your neighbor?

I understand that part. The "brother" would have acted evil. But tell me, why couldn't God remove the nerve signals which sends the pain signal to the brain in those who suffered? Why would God let babies, and innocent people, around the world, suffer pain, when it would be such a small miracle, just to save them from this terrifying agony? It wouldn't change the issue of free will one bit. It wouldn't affect anything, besides saving them from a bit of Hell on Earth.

 

Did this happen or not? Are you part of an organization now or do you "know better"? Are you spending adnormal amounts of time educating yourself to be the "power of one"? Where is the unified effort of unbelievers, where is the Muslims in action helping supply human needs.....And I don't ever, in my lifetime, remember, food drops from cargo planes coming from other nations or religious organizations to drop food here in the dreaded USofA.....

When we had the accident, and all the time after, we've received help from Christians, Jews, agnostics, atheists, Catholics, ... and more. I can't say there is any difference in how people feel about other people. Among the Christians there are some who do nothing, and among non-Christians there are people who do nothing. Among Christians there are people who do good, and among the non-Christians there are people who do good. No difference.

 

We give to help organizations at times. We have given both toys, clothes, and money to children's hospitals. Something that I think was telling how Christians want to steal the glory was when they had the Idol's Give Back show, where people call in and send money for help to starving children and such. There were several participants in that show that I know are atheists and agnostics, but yet, the host and the program had several pieces where they sang Christian songs, and they were making references like: "Thanks God" and such. So basically, they try the hardest to make it look like only Christians do this stuff, while us non-Christians are pushed into the background and still try to do good things.

 

The country I come from, Sweden, have done a lot to help poor countries. Both with food and clothes, but also inviting escapees to enter. It was happening during my years I lived there. Sweden is considered to have 70% and more agnostics and atheists. 90% or more are still registered in the State Church, but the majority is not taking Christianity serious, but believe that there are other ways of pleasing God (or the gods). Very open minded, very non-Christian, and yet, Sweden for a while received more refugees than America. So much for the Christian love. And if I remember correctly, Sweden even gave more help to needing countries than America. Every time America does something they can do it with flare, big B-52 drops, and famous actors on the front cover, and everyone beats their breast and say how good they were to drop 5 candy bars and 2 toy trucks from that big spectacle. But real help is when you keep on helping, and not beating your chest for it. In the rest of the world America is not known for its helping attitude, but for its extremely high expense on military. Do you know that America spends more than the top five countries in the world on war? Do you know America have the most prisoners in the world, because we have the highest crime rates? If you were right that Christians are so good and helpful, why doesn't the statistics show it?

 

When it comes to Muslims and how helpful they are, well, I talked to an American soldier just a few months back. He was on leave, but was going back, and he was right now studying the Arabic language, because he wants to go back there (I think it was Afghanistan, not Iraq). He said that Americans got it wrong. Muslims are very loving and caring. You have some rotten and extreme groups, but they are not all like that. My wife say the same thing. When she grew up one of her best friends were Muslims, and they can't stop themselves from giving everything. Even I have a hard time understand this. I too see them all as evil, but people who have lived with them tell me they're not. Also, I listened to a program once where they said it's only about 5-10% of the Islamic world who are extremists and potentially dangerous. The other 90% are people like you and me, and they would give and help other people if they were given the chance. I think it's a matter of culture and society rather than the willingness of the people. Ask yourself, how many Christian help organizations existed 100 years ago, or 200 years ago? Our Christian culture did not have all those help systems back then either. We were just as a bad in the West. So what can we conclude from this? That the reason is more likely that their society is still a few hundred years behind us, and if they're given the chance of maturing to our secular and humanistic level, they will be just as giving on large scale as we are.

 

You see, if you look into history, the industrial west have grown into the humanistic view through secularization, not through "christianization". Europe used to be Christian, but it matured and grew out of it, and that's when it started social welfare and helping the starving, poor, and needy. All those things Christians supposedly should do, are done for real, by the secular humans.

[Ouroboros]

You're not even warranting good conversation anymore Chef, because you are soo damn one sided now....if you want the honest truth, I am finding Hans' ideas as well as some of my own conclusions that this God being cares for all humanity and does not just "fix" the elect. Continue limiting your mind....you are doing a pretty good job already....

Yes. I like the God cares for everyone a much more appealing idea than "only one way" approach. That's why I brought up Zoroastrianism before, because that's considered the first monotheistic religion, and it influenced Judaism with ideas of God, good and evil, angels, and much more, and in Zoroastrianism, everyone will eventually go to Heaven. Hell in that religion is just a temporary punishment for the sins, but when the time is served, we all go to the better place. Isn't that a much more appealing thought? I think so. Do you know that the word Satan comes from that religion? Judaism most likely didn't have an evil adversary of God before they got it from the Zoroastrians. The idea of a cleansing fire, and Hell as a place for the sinners, also very possibly borrowed. Doesn't that make you wonder how much Judaism really knew about God and the spiritual world? If they borrowed ideas from other religions then it sounds like it's a potpourri of favorite ideas rather than a revelation from God. And if that is the foundation for Christianity, it really comes into question how they can claim to have the only truth (when other religions had the same truths before the Christians).

 

Btw, the avatar symbol I have to my name is the logo for a beer called: The Arrogant Bastard. I thought it was fitting me well.

[Guest end3]

I'd just say let's cut through the mess....you are saying that people are people regardless of affiliation? I believe that, and personally don't know that labels make any difference. A person is a person.

 

I can see that influencing another with love is probably for the most part a better action than most alternatives.

 

If the God of the Bible is there, I am assuming he gave humanity all the chances he felt warranted. Obviously we are not learning well on our own, regardless. Do I understand the larger plan of the Bible God? No.

 

The unity between all humans is illusive at best. Can there be a place where this happens? Is there something that describes accurately a roadmap or enables change so we may get there? Can it exist? I am hoping...

[Ouroboros]

Sounds good End. I have nothing to add.

[chefranden]

1.You're not even warranting good conversation anymore Chef,

 

2.because you are soo damn one sided now....if you want the honest truth, I am finding Hans' ideas as well as some of my own conclusions that this God being cares for all humanity and does not just "fix" the elect. Continue limiting your mind....you are doing a pretty good job already....

 

1. Well that's one way to avoid the difficult questions.

 

2. What you want me to pretend that Bible God is when Bible God is not? Lets pretend that the Church is the Body of God. Then as I say God is, unjust, incompetent, hateful, greedy, full of shit, and etc. That is not to say that the Church doesn't do anything good. It is to prove by your hypothesis that God is not perfect. I.e. God is not what you say God is. There is no difference between God as Church and God as nothing. Again the simplest explanation is the best explanation, therefore no God. Address this directly if you can.

 

If you cant' see that making the Church the Body of God makes God less than perfect, then lets call you a bull headed one dimensional thinker. However, I say that since you choose Rambo over God, that you know this and you are being at least unconsciously disingenuous.

 

Sure you can go on and on with this new age binge you are on, but it just doesn't say anything. Get back to the concrete. Answer the questions directly instead of meandering. I.e. shit or get off the pot.

[Mike D]

I've said it before and i'll say it again - when terrorists attack just jump in the SUV and head over to Walmart to do some shopping. That'll show those evil terrorists. Just make sure you don't trample any employees to death as you stampede in to load up on more cheap junk!

[Deva]

I'd just say let's cut through the mess....you are saying that people are people regardless of affiliation? I believe that, and personally don't know that labels make any difference. A person is a person.

 

This is fine, End, but then you can't say some people are the "body of Christ" and have some special abilities, and others are not.

[chefranden]

You still don't get it, it would be the other "brothers" who had let you suffer....why would God need to enact a miracle or present Himself when He is supposed to be standing right there with you as your neighbor? Did this happen or not? Are you part of an organization now or do you "know better"? Are you spending adnormal amounts of time educating yourself to be the "power of one"? Where is the unified effort of unbelievers, where is the Muslims in action helping supply human needs.....And I don't ever, in my lifetime, remember, food drops from cargo planes coming from other nations or religious organizations to drop food here in the dreaded USofA.....

 

No you still don't get it. You can't one the one hand say the Body is God on earth then on the other hand let God off the hook by saying the Body failed. If the Body is God and the Body fails, then God fails. If X=1 then 1=X. If God can't or won't control his body what good is he? Any human that won't discipline his body wouldn't be considered good. Your argument just doesn't let God off the hook.

 

Now we can examine Scripture and find God doing evil things. So it could be that God is, but that God is evil and therefore his body carries out his evil wishes, like Samuel did. If you are willing to admit that, then you might have an argument for an existing Bible God.

 

On the other hand if people evolved as a social animal in a dog eat dog environment then we could predict the kind of human behavior we see. Sometimes we act for the good of the group, sometimes we don't. Since the group is more powerful than the individual it will usually win the battle (not the war) when individuals like terrorists get out of hand. Rambo solved the immediate problem in Mumbai as he should have, but Rambo can't change human behavior overall. No God is required to explain our behavior.

[Abiyoyo]

Eh? Seriously, you haven't touched my "soul" in any sense to make a point about Jesus or give me the "chills" and think that, "oh, Jesus must be real," or something like that. So yeah, I think my statement is valid. If you believe that you somehow are getting through to us and some spooky action of spiritual essence is moving us, you really are fooling yourself. Basically, it's not working, God isn't moving me or talking to me or touching me or anything. You might wish he did. But seriously, I'm not feeling any influence. (I do feel a bit bloated from the great dinner last night, but that's about it. And a bit sleepy. But I couldn't sleep, because I'm planning strategies for next week. My head is going around and putting pieces together, like what I'm going to say to the judge.)

 

Would it be End3 who touches your soul, or God? Would God be trying to touch your soul through people if God were really God and you were one of His lost sheep? Or would God be waiting for you to open your soul up to Him again, as He is sending people that believe in Him to keep communication with you?

 

Whether God is or not, one thing has never changed about 'His creation'; We have freewill to make our own choices.

[Brought None]

I've said it before and i'll say it again - when terrorists attack just jump in the SUV and head over to Walmart to do some shopping. That'll show those evil terrorists. Just make sure you don't trample any employees to death as you stampede in to load up on more cheap junk!

 

And buy a shit load of those magnetic car ribbions, American flag underwear, and anything with a crying eagle on it. You know terrorists HATE seeing eagles with photoshoped tears of sorrow on them.

[Deva]

Whether God is or not, one thing has never changed about 'His creation'; We have freewill to make our own choices.

 

I think not.

[Abiyoyo]

Dude, have you read the Bible? Have you spent any time trying to read all of it, or do you just believe in the selected verses you pastor is giving you? Have you read about how God commands Israel to go to war, kill people, and spare none, and when they (by human empathy disobey and spare some) God gets angry and punishes Israel for disobedience!

 

Hans, seriously? Have you read it? Last time I checked, the only people serving the OT God at the times of this 'violence' were the few of Israel. The rest served other Gods, rocks, statues, the sun or whatever they choose to serve and worship. God gave many descriptions and explanations of 'why' Israel were to keep themselves from these people. God willed to create Israel, His own people that followed His way. Yes, he 'lead' Israel in 'war' to victory. War, not terrorism. Agree? They were slaves in Egypt, and they became something in which still stands as a country today. The confusion is the why of war, not the act of war.

 

Just look at it. The Bible on one side say that God cares for you, and loves you, and loves humanity... and yet innocents suffers insurmountable pain in the real world. If God created this world, and he lets people suffer, and with the outlook of eternal damnation, it doesn't fit the bill of a "loving" God. You still don't see it, do you?

 

I understand the confusion with the innocence of people and why they are suffered to things of the world, and tragedy. Yet, I will note this. Don't we all go through our own suffering in our own way. Though it might not be attached to death, we all suffer through things in this life. Even in the OT. Israel wondered for 40 years, after they were freed of being slaves for however long they were slaves. In almost death finally getting to the promise land to become suffered to Kings, except Solomon; then lastly being kept captive in Babylon. We all have suffered. Jesus suffered.

 

The Old Testament describes a God who punishes, acts in rash anger, is emotional, even is described in the Bible as to being vengeful, angry and then regretting his actions, hating, making capital punishments by killing millions of people just because he's just pissed off, causing evil to flourish in the world, and is jealous (yes, even that is in the Bible, God is jealous). So if that's true, God isn't our salvation, he's the cause to our pain and suffering! Is that really a God you want to believe in?

 

I agree that the OT God at times has showed some 'character', yet I have to ask again, knowing you a little better than this. Did you close your mind toward things Hans? Is it not possible that as Jonah was swallowed by a whale, God was angry?

[Ouroboros]

Would it be End3 who touches your soul, or God? Would God be trying to touch your soul through people if God were really God and you were one of His lost sheep? Or would God be waiting for you to open your soul up to Him again, as He is sending people that believe in Him to keep communication with you?

 

Whether God is or not, one thing has never changed about 'His creation'; We have freewill to make our own choices.

Oh, Yoyo is back!

 

Well, in the earlier part of the discussion with End3 was why God can't help the victims. It wouldn't destroy free will if God would make the suffering victims feel no pain. Actually, it would probably take away some of the sadistic pleasure the torturers feel and they wouldn't act as evil anymore. They would make better choices perhaps. But it definitely wouldn't remove free will. God could even have added just a function in our body that if we are in a terrible situation, as torture victims, that we had the ability to turn that pain off. It would be a nice gift from God. And it wouldn't make the evil people forced in anyway to stay evil, it just that it would take away the unjust suffering of the victim.

 

When it comes to if God or End is touching my soul, I must say I haven't felt neither. I'm not touched by End, but I'm more impressed that he's slowly coming around. And as I can see, my experience on this website and the few Christians that dare to come here, the only ones that have really impressed me are members like Open_Minded, Sojourner, and others, who are willing to admit their religion to be faulty and incomplete. They can admit Christianity doesn't necessarily give the full answer. And I can see how End is going that direction too, and the closer he get, the less I will push him! It seems like I'm converting people rather than they converting me.

 

In regards to if I'm open to God or not, I don't see my openness being a problem at all. My de-conversion was partly based on that I realized that my whole view of God based on a Biblical concept was wrong. I couldn't know if I was wrong in interpreting the Bible (from reading hundreds of books from many different denominations), or if the Bible was ultimately wrong. So part of my de-conversion was to admit that every religion could have some truth to it, but no religion had the whole truth. But then started my journey to figure out what was true and what was not, and it only leads me to less respect for religious views rather than more, just because I see how religion hypnotize people and make them slaves under outdated, old-fashioned ideas from people they don't even know. Humans are too gullible, and it's hurting humanity.

[Deva]

Last time I checked, the only people serving the OT God at the times of this 'violence' were the few of Israel. The rest served other Gods, rocks, statues, the sun or whatever they choose to serve and worship. God gave many descriptions and explanations of 'why' Israel were to keep themselves from these people. God willed to create Israel, His own people that followed His way. Yes, he 'lead' Israel in 'war' to victory. War, not terrorism. Agree? They were slaves in Egypt, and they became something in which still stands as a country today. The confusion is the why of war, not the act of war.

 

Nonsense. The "few of Israel" were also busy worshiping other Gods as well. Yahweh was one of many. Don't you remember the incident of the Golden Calf? Things get a little rough and what do the people of Israel do? Set up an image and worship it. What about that passage about making cakes for the Queen of Heaven" (don't make me look it up). "They were slaves in Egypt" - not a shred of historical evidence.

 

Does Israel keeping themselves from "these people" justify war? What is the difference between war and terrorism? War is terrorism on a massive scale. Your apologies for war just don't wash, Yoyo.

 

Don't we all go through our own suffering in our own way. Though it might not be attached to death, we all suffer through things in this life. Even in the OT. Israel wondered for 40 years, after they were freed of being slaves for however long they were slaves. In almost death finally getting to the promise land to become suffered to Kings, except Solomon; then lastly being kept captive in Babylon. We all have suffered. Jesus suffered.

 

So what? Just because things were supposedly made better for Israel because they were freed, how does that fix the years they were in captivity (assuming for the moment they were). Isn't Bible God supposed to be a just God? How is he going to fix it all?

[Abiyoyo]

But then started my journey to figure out what was true and what was not, and it only leads me to less respect for religious views rather than more, just because I see how religion hypnotize people and make them slaves under outdated, old-fashioned ideas from people they don't even know. Humans are too gullible, and it's hurting humanity.

 

Miss me?

 

I agree. Thats why I don't stay attached to 'church life' much. And sadly the hypnosis makes the church people 'detach' from me. I personally think denomination believe in denomination and God, Jesus is the product, and all others are imitations.

[Ouroboros]

Dude, have you read the Bible? Have you spent any time trying to read all of it, or do you just believe in the selected verses you pastor is giving you? Have you read about how God commands Israel to go to war, kill people, and spare none, and when they (by human empathy disobey and spare some) God gets angry and punishes Israel for disobedience!

 

Hans, seriously? Have you read it? Last time I checked, the only people serving the OT God at the times of this 'violence' were the few of Israel.

Few of Israel? You mean those 6 million people (yeah, right) who left Egypt and 40 years later invaded the "promised land" through war and occupation? You claim that is morally right? You think it's morally right because they thought it was God's command? What about all the times when they attacked the small tribes in Judges? There's a whole bunch of wars, and God commanded them to do it. At times God commanded them to "spare none." And when the soldiers spared people anyway, God got upset and punished them. Seriously, you're the one who missed plenty of good blood stories in your holy book.

 

The rest served other Gods, rocks, statues, the sun or whatever they choose to serve and worship. God gave many descriptions and explanations of 'why' Israel were to keep themselves from these people. God willed to create Israel, His own people that followed His way. Yes, he 'lead' Israel in 'war' to victory. War, not terrorism. Agree? They were slaves in Egypt, and they became something in which still stands as a country today. The confusion is the why of war, not the act of war.

So when the Bible say the people they attacked lived in fear and terror, they were not terrorized? Anyway, that's besides the point. I didn't argue that God's war was terrorism. I don't know where you got that from. You're assuming something that was never said. The point is that God doesn't care if he kills people or order his "chosen" people to kill. So no Christian can really claim they wouldn't go to war and murder in the name of God, because the Bible glorifies it and instruct you to be a soldier in his army. If you want to be Jesus's puppy, you have to obey his will.

 

Just look at it. The Bible on one side say that God cares for you, and loves you, and loves humanity... and yet innocents suffers insurmountable pain in the real world. If God created this world, and he lets people suffer, and with the outlook of eternal damnation, it doesn't fit the bill of a "loving" God. You still don't see it, do you?

 

I understand the confusion with the innocence of people and why they are suffered to things of the world, and tragedy. Yet, I will note this. Don't we all go through our own suffering in our own way. Though it might not be attached to death, we all suffer through things in this life. Even in the OT. Israel wondered for 40 years, after they were freed of being slaves for however long they were slaves. In almost death finally getting to the promise land to become suffered to Kings, except Solomon; then lastly being kept captive in Babylon. We all have suffered. Jesus suffered.

Yeah? And that is good how? So suffering is the same as free will? Suffering is good... hmm... then Hell is the best place to go to, because it's eternal suffering. No? Why not? Ah, so suffering is not good when it's eternal after-life thingy, but it's good when it's here in this world? That must be the reason why in some Christian cultures they torture themselves on some holidays.

 

The Old Testament describes a God who punishes, acts in rash anger, is emotional, even is described in the Bible as to being vengeful, angry and then regretting his actions, hating, making capital punishments by killing millions of people just because he's just pissed off, causing evil to flourish in the world, and is jealous (yes, even that is in the Bible, God is jealous). So if that's true, God isn't our salvation, he's the cause to our pain and suffering! Is that really a God you want to believe in?

 

I agree that the OT God at times has showed some 'character', yet I have to ask again, knowing you a little better than this. Did you close your mind toward things Hans? Is it not possible that as Jonah was swallowed by a whale, God was angry?

First of all, Jonah wasn't swallowed by a whale, it was just a large fish. And he was in the stomach for three days. In acid, without air, and no food. Eh... yeah... Besides, they have fairly good documentation of Nineveh and there's no sign of them converting to Judaism even for the shortest time.

 

And when it comes to my mind, no, I haven't closed my mind to it, but I'm not so open to everything that I accept levitating Buddhists, disappearing airplanes, or Roman-Orthodox images of Virgin Mary on a wet door, as miracles. There's a reason why less educated people see more "miracles" than educated, because they tend to lack the education to explain the reality behind the events. To some indigenous native in the deep jungle, a pill that takes away their coughing is a miracle from the gods, and not natural. The same random patters that we construct to become images in our heads, are just random patters on a wall. I can go to our bathroom and look at our tile, and I can find at least 3-4 different faces or animals shapes on them. Plenty of them there. When I was kid, we had a plaid that I liked, because the silky material could make different patters if you brushed your hand over it, and sometimes I found some inspiration to characters to the cartoons I was drawing, but never did I think it was God who made those faces appear. Maybe I'm just not as naive enough to be a Christian?

[Ouroboros]

Miss me?

Yeah. Like a needle in my eye! ... Just kidding! You're okay. (And End is okay too, at least to me.)

 

I agree. Thats why I don't stay attached to 'church life' much. And sadly the hypnosis makes the church people 'detach' from me. I personally think denomination believe in denomination and God, Jesus is the product, and all others are imitations.

That's why I think I'm not going too hard-ass on you because I think that's a more healthy approach to belief, even if I don't believe myself, I don't think it's right to deny someone else from his.

 

And I do play with the thought sometimes that even if Jesus didn't exist as a real person, the Gospel stories might have been a story for people to connect to, and the attempt of having people becoming "sons of God" by imitation of that hero character. Like live role playing. Become like this guy, and God will be pleased, kind of theme. It's quite different than the current literalistic view of the Bible. Rather read the stories as stories to convert you as a person. Do you know what I mean? The story then later became modified and redacted, but maybe the original story wasn't at all to believe in a God-Person, but to believe in the concept of becoming A God-Person? But even so, I don't believe there's a personal God of any kind, so even with this concept, I have no real use of it. It played it's role in my life, and now I have grown out of it. I now eat the steady meat, and not depend on milk like a child.

[Abiyoyo]

Nonsense. The "few of Israel" were also busy worshiping other Gods as well. Yahweh was one of many. Don't you remember the incident of the Golden Calf? Things get a little rough and what do the people of Israel do? Set up an image and worship it. What about that passage about making cakes for the Queen of Heaven" (don't make me look it up). "They were slaves in Egypt" - not a shred of historical evidence.

 

Right. They did worship other things, thats the point. He kept them away from these things also winning wars of other peoples' countries(Biblically) keeping His promise to Abraham, having as many descendants as the sands of the sea; leading the people to their own land. God willed to make it known that the God of Israel was the only one true God, and to make them a nation of 'His people'. That was the MO of early OT.

 

Does Israel keeping themselves from "these people" justify war? What is the difference between war and terrorism? War is terrorism on a massive scale. Your apologies for war just don't wash, Yoyo.

 

Getting back to what End3 said. The one holding the big stick.... thats just the way it is Deva. We have warred with each other for centuries, whats the difference between war now and war then. Hopefully, Christians will come to understand that the whole point of Christianity is diversion of this nature of life. Jesus said if someone slaps you on the cheek, give them the other. If we live by the sword we will fall by the sword. He was a man of peace, not war, in the physical realm that is. Yet, yes as discussed earlier, He is the great warrior that will defend us in the last days. He, not us.

 

So what? Just because things were supposedly made better for Israel because they were freed, how does that fix the years they were in captivity (assuming for the moment they were). Isn't Bible God supposed to be a just God? How is he going to fix it all?

 

Just. You say why do people have to suffer, Is God not just? I say, why do people have to murder and live without judgment, Is God not just?

[Abiyoyo]

First of all, Jonah wasn't swallowed by a whale, it was just a large fish. And he was in the stomach for three days. In acid, without air, and no food. Eh... yeah... Besides, they have fairly good documentation of Nineveh and there's no sign of them converting to Judaism even for the shortest time.

 

And when it comes to my mind, no, I haven't closed my mind to it, but I'm not so open to everything that I accept levitating Buddhists, disappearing airplanes, or Roman-Orthodox images of Virgin Mary on a wet door, as miracles. There's a reason why less educated people see more "miracles" than educated, because they tend to lack the education to explain the reality behind the events. To some indigenous native in the deep jungle, a pill that takes away their coughing is a miracle from the gods, and not natural. The same random patters that we construct to become images in our heads, are just random patters on a wall. I can go to our bathroom and look at our tile, and I can find at least 3-4 different faces or animals shapes on them. Plenty of them there. When I was kid, we had a plaid that I liked, because the silky material could make different patters if you brushed your hand over it, and sometimes I found some inspiration to characters to the cartoons I was drawing, but never did I think it was God who made those faces appear. Maybe I'm just not as naive enough to be a Christian?

 

That was my point with that Hans. Maybe the reality of Jonah getting swallowed by the large fish is in the same manner as the reality that the God that would have if God created everything, is angry, violent, and jealous. The only difference is that Jonahs story is obvious, and a character reference is not so obvious. The connection of similarity of context comes from the fact that it is a book, written by a variety of people, passed around the people from generation to generation. The stones of the Jordan river? Did God say to keep these as a keepsake forever, or did they say, Lets keep these for a keepsake?

 

If the fish could be looked at as unrealistic, or unimaginable; then so could God's implied character by the author during these passages. Yet most will say that is cherry picking or forcing sense into a senseless religion. But I disagree. Because there are times the authors as has been such stated earlier, have made God to be loving and kind, and caring, upholding justice and righteousness.

[Ouroboros]

Just. You say why do people have to suffer, Is God not just? I say, why do people have to murder and live without judgment, Is God not just?

Of course God isn't just, since he's abusing his power to overstep the same things you consider to be unjust. We consider, in our modern, educated world, that taking over a country and killing innocent inhabitants because we believe some magical sky-being talked to our leader, is not kosher. In our world we believe that countries are sovereign, and killing innocent people is wrong. (And of course, that creates some conflicts, which one is more important, sovereignty--the right of the country--or to protect humans--rights of humans.) But generally, the western world (Christians and non-Christian) tend to behave better than God did in the Bible, and that's my point. We are more aware of our moral duties today, than the God of ol' Israel. Does that tell you something about God's omniscience? If he wrote the book about morality, then he forgot to read it himself.

[Ouroboros]

That was my point with that Hans. Maybe the reality of Jonah getting swallowed by the large fish is in the same manner as the reality that the God that would have if God created everything, is angry, violent, and jealous. The only difference is that Jonahs story is obvious, and a character reference is not so obvious. The connection of similarity of context comes from the fact that it is a book, written by a variety of people, passed around the people from generation to generation. The stones of the Jordan river? Did God say to keep these as a keepsake forever, or did they say, Lets keep these for a keepsake?

 

If the fish could be looked at as unrealistic, or unimaginable; then so could God's implied character by the author during these passages. Yet most will say that is cherry picking or forcing sense into a senseless religion. But I disagree. Because there are times the authors as has been such stated earlier, have made God to be loving and kind, and caring, upholding justice and righteousness.

Basically, the Bible is the work of humans, who interpret a chaotic and conflicting world, and try to make sense out of by attaching characteristics to God, without knowing if that is the truth or not. Hence, we can say that we don't know if God (if he/she/it exists) is neither good nor evil. We can't say the Bible got the right image. And hence, we can't say Christianity is the only religion to God. It even could be that the atheists, like me, are just as much holy people (and maybe more than some) than any religious person. And I'm okay with that. Even though I still don't think there's a personal God.

 

To read and study the Bible as an anthropological artifact makes a lot more sense than to read it as a factual description of the imaginary spiritual world. It tells us more about humans and their search for understanding, than who/what/where God is.

[Abiyoyo]

Basically, the Bible is the work of humans, who interpret a chaotic and conflicting world, and try to make sense out of by attaching characteristics to God, without knowing if that is the truth or not.....

 

I am teaching a class at church now, which is hard for me since I'm not stuck in denomination and the people in my class are deacons of the church. But, I do admire the people here on intelligence and current events, and am extremely disturbed with most church going peoples awareness of there surroundings. I here the prayer requests about the littlest of things, that if one uses their brain could probably handle on there own. One day, I asked if anyone read the news or watched CNN etc. They all said they try to 'stay' away from that sort of thing. This is a class about seeking God, and finding where He is at work around us, and doing His will, etc. So, I read a news story from overseas talking about how 13 Christians were killed that prior week, and over 900 Christian families were being forced to move, or face death by an extremist Muslim group. It really bothers me when church people get stuck in their self centered bubble. Pray for the safety of those people, not the petty things we can handle ourselves. There's a bigger picture than the church circle in America.

 

To read and study the Bible as an anthropological artifact makes a lot more sense than to read it as a factual description of the imaginary spiritual world. It tells us more about humans and their search for understanding, than who/what/where God is.

 

 

I agree, and as a believer. I add that on my end, I do think their was an encounter with God at some point propelling the actions of these people, yet, a large portion is like you said, trying to understand. For me, they were writing a Book surrounded by God, Him abiding in their every action and movement.

[Deva]

Right. They did worship other things, thats the point. He kept them away from these things also winning wars of other peoples' countries(Biblically) keeping His promise to Abraham, having as many descendants as the sands of the sea; leading the people to their own land. God willed to make it known that the God of Israel was the only one true God, and to make them a nation of 'His people'. That was the MO of early OT.

 

Evidently he didn't keep them away enough, since they kept relapsing. They must not have been sufficiently convinced.

 

Getting back to what End3 said. The one holding the big stick.... thats just the way it is Deva. We have warred with each other for centuries, whats the difference between war now and war then. Hopefully, Christians will come to understand that the whole point of Christianity is diversion of this nature of life. Jesus said if someone slaps you on the cheek, give them the other. If we live by the sword we will fall by the sword. He was a man of peace, not war, in the physical realm that is. Yet, yes as discussed earlier, He is the great warrior that will defend us in the last days. He, not us.

 

Great. Its always in "the last days" everything will be set right, while in the meantime everyone suffers.

 

Just. You say why do people have to suffer, Is God not just? I say, why do people have to murder and live without judgment, Is God not just?

 

The answer is no, under any scenario. If you look at the world there is no such thing as justice.