Abiyoyo Posted November 30, 2008 Share Posted November 30, 2008 Romans 12:20Therefore if thine enemy hunger, feed him; if he thirst, give him drink: for in so doing thou shalt heap coals of fire on his head. So is that being literally applied, as to us/God would be throwing heaps of coals on someones head, or is this saying that if we do good to our enemy they will then be upset, upset as 'if' a heap of coals were on there head. And the later reward would be for being courteous. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chefranden Posted November 30, 2008 Share Posted November 30, 2008 Let me rephrase so I am confirming what you are saying....you are saying since the body now is made up of people, and we know people are faulty, then God is faulty because it is His Body.... Hallelujah! The Holy Spirit of Logic is breaking through. Somehow I am sure this will not be sufficient for you... Sufficient for what? When did I say that you couldn't make an argument from scripture that the church is God's Body? Perhaps you took it that way when I suggested that I pretend that that the Church really is the body of God. That would also mean I pretend God is real. Sorry I should have been more precise like, I stipulate for the sake of argument that X = the Church is the real body of a real Bible God. Therefore I can ask (and so could you) if X then what? The first thing I notice is that I can find the actual character of God from the actions of his body, just like I can find your character from the actions of your body. If I see your body go over and rape a little girl, or if I see your body not helping a person in obvious need, then I will find that maybe your character is not so nice. Now if I see your body being like this over and over again, then I can find you are an asshole. Since I see the body of God acting not nice over and over, I can find at least that God is not perfect like is claimed. But I think that I also find from his body's behavior that God (if real) is an asshole. But of course God is not really an asshole because God is not real and therefore the Church is not really anyone's body. Therefore the Church's actions are not characteristic of anything but evolved human social behavior. I.e. the Church, counter to its claims, is nothing special. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super Moderator florduh Posted November 30, 2008 Super Moderator Share Posted November 30, 2008 So is that being literally applied, as to us/God would be throwing heaps of coals on someones head, or is this saying that if we do good to our enemy they will then be upset, upset as 'if' a heap of coals were on there head. And the later reward would be for being courteous. Perhaps the coal fire softens the enemy to make him receptive to the Spirit. Maybe the greater the believers reward, the greater the hellfire for his enemies. Maybe, maybe maybe. As with most of those ancient writings thrown together so long ago to make the Bible, there are as many interpretations as there are readers. Some of the devices to move the story along are very clear, however. When it says God smote the so-and-so people, or ordered his chosen group to kill all the inhabitants of a city, or grew weary of his own creation and drowned every man, woman, child, puppy, kitten and kangaroo save a handful including the dysfunctional Noah family - the creator is seen to be far from omnipotent, kind or loving. Stating that we can't know God's ways won't cut it. We were supposedly made in his image, yet few humans as so cruel and vengeful, and on such a global scale. Twisting verses to ignore that fact is the heart of apologetics, and I finally had my fill and took off the blinders and embraced reality. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
agnosticator Posted November 30, 2008 Share Posted November 30, 2008 Romans 12:20Therefore if thine enemy hunger, feed him; if he thirst, give him drink: for in so doing thou shalt heap coals of fire on his head. So is that being literally applied, as to us/God would be throwing heaps of coals on someones head, or is this saying that if we do good to our enemy they will then be upset, upset as 'if' a heap of coals were on there head. And the later reward would be for being courteous. Like Psalm 140:10- burning coal, as in cast into the fire It is figurative for vengeance via hellfire. Love thine enemies, so that god can take his vengeance READ VERSE 19. Vengeance is MINE not the christian's. SO, treat them kindly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest end3 Posted November 30, 2008 Share Posted November 30, 2008 Let me rephrase so I am confirming what you are saying....you are saying since the body now is made up of people, and we know people are faulty, then God is faulty because it is His Body.... Hallelujah! The Holy Spirit of Logic is breaking through. Somehow I am sure this will not be sufficient for you... Sufficient for what? When did I say that you couldn't make an argument from scripture that the church is God's Body? Perhaps you took it that way when I suggested that I pretend that that the Church really is the body of God. That would also mean I pretend God is real. Sorry I should have been more precise like, I stipulate for the sake of argument that X = the Church is the real body of a real Bible God. Therefore I can ask (and so could you) if X then what? The first thing I notice is that I can find the actual character of God from the actions of his body, just like I can find your character from the actions of your body. If I see your body go over and rape a little girl, or if I see your body not helping a person in obvious need, then I will find that maybe your character is not so nice. Now if I see your body being like this over and over again, then I can find you are an asshole. Since I see the body of God acting not nice over and over, I can find at least that God is not perfect like is claimed. But I think that I also find from his body's behavior that God (if real) is an asshole. But of course God is not really an asshole because God is not real and therefore the Church is not really anyone's body. Therefore the Church's actions are not characteristic of anything but evolved human social behavior. I.e. the Church, counter to its claims, is nothing special. Fine, but where in the scripture does it say that once you are a believer and still alive in bodily form, are you complete in holiness? I think you are just arguing for the sake of it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest end3 Posted November 30, 2008 Share Posted November 30, 2008 It does say hate evil. And how is turning the other cheek, feeding the enemy anything other than love for the person to help them turn. We often learn by example of moral behavior, and I personally have burned with embarrassment a few times over the years...like coals upon my tiny noggin. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ouroboros Posted November 30, 2008 Share Posted November 30, 2008 So is that being literally applied, as to us/God would be throwing heaps of coals on someones head, or is this saying that if we do good to our enemy they will then be upset, upset as 'if' a heap of coals were on there head. And the later reward would be for being courteous. Actually, I'm not sure what is being argued here at all. My interpretation of that verse is that it is a command to Christians to behave good, show mercy, love, and feed, give clothes, and much more, for their enemies, and not pursue revenge for their misdeeds. In other words, Christians who feel that war is the right way to subdue terrorists, do not live by this verse, but by the sword. My interpretation is that this verse is the philosophy of Ghandi. Make love, not war, and even if the Christian is persecuted, oppressed, tortured, killed, maimed, hated, and reviled, they should love, care, and give all their time and hearts to their enemies, because that is the way of the master. And it would (supposedly) convince the enemy that the Christian got something they don't. But how come is America the 5th Christian country in the world, and the largest war machinery every in existence? Not because they live by this verse, but because they live by the Old Testaments an eye for an eye, and God is revengeful and hate the sin and the sinner. God hated Esau, did he not? God hated the Philistines too, and that's why he ordered the wars against them. So I'd say, the Christians in America, if God exists, and Christianity is true, will get a special part of Hell with some extra hot fires burning, since they don't live according to the New Testament. (I'm not necessarily including you in the group though, because I have a feeling you get what I'm saying.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Abiyoyo Posted November 30, 2008 Share Posted November 30, 2008 Like Psalm 140:10- burning coal, as in cast into the fire It is figurative for vengeance via hellfire. Love thine enemies, so that god can take his vengeance READ VERSE 19. Vengeance is MINE not the christian's. SO, treat them kindly. That was David's prayer. The verse 19, I don't follow you. Which book, and chapter? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Abiyoyo Posted November 30, 2008 Share Posted November 30, 2008 So I'd say, the Christians in America, if God exists, and Christianity is true, will get a special part of Hell with some extra hot fires burning, since they don't live according to the New Testament. (I'm not necessarily including you in the group though, because I have a feeling you get what I'm saying.) You may be right about that. I believe the part of Revelations that talks about that Great city that will fall in one day will be us, though many say different. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ouroboros Posted November 30, 2008 Share Posted November 30, 2008 You may be right about that. I believe the part of Revelations that talks about that Great city that will fall in one day will be us, though many say different. If I still believed the Bible to be true, I would probably agree with you. (I have Catholic friends, and one recently said something about the Obama is the Antichrist, because there's some idea out there now that Antichrist will be the first black president... And I told her that these Antichrist stories changes every year. In the 80's, we believed the Pope was Antichrist. 20 years from now, it'll be whatever dominant country, maybe China, or Europe, which will be the seat for the Evil King. At this point we're probably counted a few thousands of them since the Revelation was written.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest end3 Posted November 30, 2008 Share Posted November 30, 2008 God hated Esau, did he not? my blunder, I was thinking of Cain.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ouroboros Posted November 30, 2008 Share Posted November 30, 2008 God hated Esau, did he not? my blunder, I was thinking of Cain.. I don't think God liked him very much either. God wasn't pleased with his sacrifice, since it wasn't blood from a killed animal. Doesn't it strike you odd that God the almighty have the taste of blood the same way as the old pagan gods? The old pagans sacrificed cows, sheep, and animals too, just to please the gods and hopefully give them success in their hunt. And the farmers did sacrifice parts of the harvest too to please the farming gods. So do you ever wonder why the Bible God is so similar to those gods in the early books? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
agnosticator Posted November 30, 2008 Share Posted November 30, 2008 Like Psalm 140:10- burning coal, as in cast into the fire It is figurative for vengeance via hellfire. Love thine enemies, so that god can take his vengeance READ VERSE 19. Vengeance is MINE not the christian's. SO, treat them kindly. That was David's prayer. The verse 19, I don't follow you. Which book, and chapter? Verse 19 of rom.12! Vengeance is up to god, and christian kindness kills (figuratively heaping coals) by loving your enemies. Rom. 12:19,20 are clear in this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest end3 Posted November 30, 2008 Share Posted November 30, 2008 God hated Esau, did he not? my blunder, I was thinking of Cain.. I don't think God liked him very much either. God wasn't pleased with his sacrifice, since it wasn't blood from a killed animal. Doesn't it strike you odd that God the almighty have the taste of blood the same way as the old pagan gods? The old pagans sacrificed cows, sheep, and animals too, just to please the gods and hopefully give them success in their hunt. And the farmers did sacrifice parts of the harvest too to please the farming gods. So do you ever wonder why the Bible God is so similar to those gods in the early books? I think had Cain told the truth, things would have been much better. The "canned" lesson is the one you are referencing So you are telling me millions upon millions are "delusional"? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ouroboros Posted December 1, 2008 Share Posted December 1, 2008 I think had Cain told the truth, things would have been much better. The "canned" lesson is the one you are referencing Well, the Bible does say that God was not pleased with Cain's sacrifices. The murder was just the wrong solution Cain had for not being loved by God. It shows how bad children turns out if their parents don't show them enough love. So you are telling me millions upon millions are "delusional"? How about the other billions of people who are not Christian? Are they correct, or are they incorrect? Consider that only 30% of the Earth's population call themselves Christian, and the largest part of the Christians are the Orthodox (IIRC). Then out of the 70% who are not Christian, another, almost as big, group are Muslims. And then the last third of humanity is the mix of Jews, Buddhists, Hindus, atheists, and so on. Do I think people, and large groups of people can be delusional? Yes, absolutely. There are books about it. Do you remember the stock market and the internet business boom late 90's, early 2000? Well, a large majority of American's believed in the "New Economy" which was spread as a myth by financial "experts." There wasn't any "New Economy," only the old economy under a new name. A large part of society was fooled, and they bought it completely. Then we have what's going on right now, the house market bubble burst. Do you think people paid 300% over the value of a house because they were "at their right mind," or because they were fooled into thinking that the house market will always go up, and up, and up, and up, and ... In essence, (as I said, there are books talking about this) humans act weird and sometimes very foolishly in large groups. And the reason is, "well, if my neighbor, and my other neighbor, and everyone I know, believe this, then it must be true." No on questions the majority. So really, the larger group, the greater risk of delusion. Changes away from bad situations usually starts with one or few men or women standing up against the majority, and suddenly the doubters in the midst suddenly wake up and realize they didn't believe in the majority delusion either, and suddenly you have a chain effect of change. And sometimes you get a very large group standing up against the majority, and sometimes they succeed, sometimes they don't, and history moves on and later the change comes through some other means, and they look back at history and realize those few people had it right. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super Moderator florduh Posted December 1, 2008 Super Moderator Share Posted December 1, 2008 Pardon me for returning to the OP, but what's a good Christian to do about people who are obeying the God of Abraham by killing people? Doesn't it all sound rather Old Testament? Seriously, what does it take to make a Christian see history, the big picture, and think a little bit? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ouroboros Posted December 1, 2008 Share Posted December 1, 2008 Doesn't it all sound rather Old Testament? Seriously, what does it take to make a Christian see history, the big picture, and think a little bit? A brain? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brought None Posted December 1, 2008 Share Posted December 1, 2008 Doesn't it all sound rather Old Testament? Seriously, what does it take to make a Christian see history, the big picture, and think a little bit? A brain? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chefranden Posted December 1, 2008 Share Posted December 1, 2008 2. Fine, but where in the scripture does it say that once you are a believer and still alive in bodily form, are you complete in holiness? 1. I think you are just arguing for the sake of it. 1. Of course I'm arguing for the sake of it. I love typing "therefore". It just kind of rolls off the fingers don't you know. And it certainly doesn't hurt that I'm right. Nevertheless, I don't expect to decovert you. Why are you arguing? 2. Nowhere that I'm aware of. If you wish to bring this in, then you are admitting that the Body of the perfect God is imperfect. This does not compute. Anyway it still doesn't let a real Bible God off the asshole hook. If God can't perfect you in your body now then he is a failure at salvation. If God won't perfect you in your body now then God is an asshole. And the latter must be true if God is all powerful, all knowing, all loving, all everything perfect, and real. So what is the difference between here and heaven? Why can't you be perfected now? Jesus was perfect on the Earth right? So it can't be anything environmental. Are you supposed to perfect yourself? If so then what purpose is Jesus incarnation and death? If Jesus is supposed to perfect you then he has failed. Has anyone been perfected? Or have all died as sinners still? You are asked to be buried with Christ in baptism and then you will be raised from the water in a new life -- right? Then why the heck is the new life the same as the old life? I baptized a few, and I can't recall any of them coming up perfected. In fact I didn't see any of them gradually get perfect either. I was happy if I could get them just to read the Gospels. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Net Eng Posted December 1, 2008 Share Posted December 1, 2008 Doesn't it all sound rather Old Testament? Seriously, what does it take to make a Christian see history, the big picture, and think a little bit? A brain? A brain we all have. It's the blinders that are the issue. Faith causes us to put on blinders to all other ideas and explanations. Lower the blinders a bit and our brains start asking questions naturally. For some I think the comfort of wearing the faith blinders is to much to give them up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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