Terrorist Attack In Mumbai

[Ouroboros]

I think I would agree, but Hans you hear it over and over here, Where was God, where was God.....hello???? That's fine if one chooses non-belief, but on that premise?

Well, it's a valid question to the believer, if they believe in that God exists, and you have terrorists killing innocent people, it's a wonder that religious people don't get angry with God. I can't get angry with God. But you could, and we unbelievers here are mystified by how you (and other believers) don't stand up and realize something is wrong with their belief, since God lets all these innocent suffer. If you think it's wrong, then why doesn't God think it's wrong? Or does he think it's wrong, bu he doesn't care? Or does he care, but he can't do anything, because he's powerless? Or he care, and he can do it, but ... he's a prick?

[Deva]

To your last paragraph, I have my doubts occasionally about God, but am becoming more at rest with my belief. I still don't understand that most people here miss the biblical concept that people are the "body" until He returns. I choose Rambo because he stands for good and defeats the enemy. Did I get it right? Hope you had a good holiday....

 

End the problem is that the Biblical God is depicted as being a God of justice and that, at least in the Old Testament, God helps his people in this life, he judges justly. In the New Testament he is depicted more as judging after this life is over. Are you saying that people are the representatives of God and should carry out God's justice in this situation? If so, do you see a problem in that?

[buffettphan]

In the ultimate end, terrorism shall always exist. However, they use fear as a very effective tool. One might say, why not make them fearful of us? Sadly, that really can't be done. As most aren't even afraid of death.

 

That's it! Not only are they not afraid of death, they relish the idea and welcome it. What do they have to lose? Heck, their heavenly reward, according to Islamic texts, is described as

 

... life for its immortal inhabitants, one that is happy — without hurt, sorrow, fear or shame — where every wish is fulfilled. Traditions relate that inhabitants will be of the same age (33 years), and of the same stature. Their life is one of bliss including: wearing costly robes, bracelets, perfumes; partaking in exquisite banquets, served in priceless vessels by immortal youths; reclining on couches inlaid with gold or precious stones. Other foods mentioned include meats, scented wine and clear drinks bringing neither drunkenness nor rousing quarrelling. Inhabitants will rejoice in the company of their parents, spouses, and children (provided they were admitted to paradise) — conversing and recalling the past. Texts also relate "pure consorts" (houris), created in perfection, with whom carnal joys are shared — "a hundred times greater than earthly pleasure".

 

The dwellings for inhabitants will be pleasant, with lofty gardens, shady valleys, fountains scented with camphor or ginger; rivers of water, milk, honey and wines; delicious fruits of all seasons without thorns; pavilions wherein houri are kept. One day in paradise is considered equal to a thousand days on earth. Palaces are made from gold, silver, pearls, among other things. Traditions also note the presence of horses and camels of "dazzling whiteness", along with other creatures. Large trees are described, mountains made of musk, between which rivers flow in valleys of pearl and ruby.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jannah

http://www.usvetdsp.com/jan07/muslim_women.htm

 

And as far how to survive, errr... I mean "enjoy" the 72 virgins those martyrs will receive, muslim men are assured that they will be given virility equal to that of one hundred men.

 

Sure beats life in the "real" muslim world.

 

How in the hell can you fight that kind of mentality?

[Legion]

I think a good thing about Obama being in office is that liberals are actually going to have to think, seriously think, about what to do with terrorism.

[Ouroboros]

We will never get rid of terrorism. It's a matter of learning to live with it, and know how to protect ourselves.

[BlueGiant]

Ummmm...perhaps people should pay closer attention to the obituaries rather than going "brown people terror!" and blowing a gasket. Well, blowing a gasket may be in order, but not over what you think. Three of the top guys in Indian counter-intelligence got iced (got the information from a friend who was reading the local papers over there). This looks more like a Pakastani intelligence-inspired hit.

 

Or you can flip your shit since your guy (deservedly) lost the election and claim kotowing to terror before anything is known/done. In other words, you can give into your fear, knee jerk, and put us a few thousand more dead and a few trillion more in debt.

[Guest end3]

To your last paragraph, I have my doubts occasionally about God, but am becoming more at rest with my belief. I still don't understand that most people here miss the biblical concept that people are the "body" until He returns. I choose Rambo because he stands for good and defeats the enemy. Did I get it right? Hope you had a good holiday....

 

End the problem is that the Biblical God is depicted as being a God of justice and that, at least in the Old Testament, God helps his people in this life, he judges justly. In the New Testament he is depicted more as judging after this life is over. Are you saying that people are the representatives of God and should carry out God's justice in this situation? If so, do you see a problem in that?

 

I see your point Ms. Deva. I believe we are to reach a point where we can understand the truth during our days. I see God of the old testament exacting the final judgement on the spot as opposed to giving people time to contemplate their actions etc... I see Jesus as many things, perhaps a direction giver guiding humanity to Heaven. I see the Holy Spirit as an entity that "bumps" us to seeing the truth to a situation. So yes, I think we ought to be able to understand how to behave to situations presented to us. Again, the difference in the OT would be like Heaven existing on earth......you "do this" or "are this" or you won't participate in Heaven, where now we are to learn to discern the truth and act and move towards a place with God, understanding no one gets there now except through Jesus simply because we can't. And I think this shows compassion, but y'all are right, it raises some interesting questions regarding God. Regarding the terrorist and judgement...I believe if these men were to enter Heaven where God the father resides, then "poof", they would be no more due to their actions, just like in the OT.

[Guest end3]

I think I would agree, but Hans you hear it over and over here, Where was God, where was God.....hello???? That's fine if one chooses non-belief, but on that premise?

Well, it's a valid question to the believer, if they believe in that God exists, and you have terrorists killing innocent people, it's a wonder that religious people don't get angry with God. I can't get angry with God. But you could, and we unbelievers here are mystified by how you (and other believers) don't stand up and realize something is wrong with their belief, since God lets all these innocent suffer. If you think it's wrong, then why doesn't God think it's wrong? Or does he think it's wrong, bu he doesn't care? Or does he care, but he can't do anything, because he's powerless? Or he care, and he can do it, but ... he's a prick?

 

Please see my post to Ms. Deva and try, try to understand.

[Guest end3]

1. Defense is the moral position. As soon as you are on the offense you are them, using terror to get what you want. And since these guys don't mind dying that is not going to work. Defense includes aggressive police work, but it doesn't include the military because bombs and artillery can't tell the difference between terrorists and just plain folks.

 

In a moral world, there would be no need for defense....like in Heaven.

 

2. This body concept is just your way of denying that God is not there.

 

Not my concept....an inspired Paul?

 

You chose Rambo because he stands for an agency that can actually do something, as opposed to God that cannot do anything because nothing can't do something. You know this instinctively so you choose Rambo over God. Believe it or not these Muslim terrorists have the same problem. If God wants done what they set out to do it would be done without them. They are the Body of Allah, until Allah chooses to show up. They are doing for Allah what Allah cant do for himself, because of his non existence. Allah and Jesus are 2 peas in a pod that isn't there.

 

You too, please read the post submitted to Ms. Deva.

[Ouroboros]

Please see my post to Ms. Deva and try, try to understand.

I tried, for a very long time, but realized there isn't any answer to why God acts evil. The only acceptable answer is that the Bible-God is just imaginary. Part of my de-conversion was the fact that I couldn't reconcile these paradoxes. There might be some other super-being, but the Bible does not describe a good God, and the events in the world proves it. Or to put it in another way: the real events in the world does not fit into the model the Bible try to explain. This doesn't mean there could be some other religion or "Holy Book" that could be true, but my conclusion is that the Bible does not explain the world correctly.

 

Consider this: if God doesn't want to interact because he doesn't want to interfere with "free will", could he not at least remove the pain the innocent victims feel when they're tortured and killed? Why do they have to suffer? What kind of free will are they expressing by being forced to feel pain and agony? God could do many things without violating the free will of the evil people, but yet he choose not to. The answer is: either God isn't at all anything like what the Bible say he is, or there isn't any God at all. Either way, Christianity lose, because it doesn't hold the truth.

 

And your idea that the Bible talks about a "body of Christ" isn't new, I heard about that idea 25 years ago when I was a kid, and ever since, but here might be the answer: maybe the true body of God (not Christ necessarily) is all humanity, good and bad, and we all are images of the divine. Our efforts to reach perfection is the divine essence in us, and some of us might have to go through some "purification" for a while before we're entered into the heavenly sphere, but it isn't a matter of belief in the right version of religion, but a matter of just being human. Maybe even this is true, that the divine consciousness had only one want: to experience time, limitations, and death, and that we are that experience. We are the fulfillment of "God's" will to experience the finite, and we are fulfilling his/her/its will by just existing! Maybe it goes even further that religion is the evil which God does not want us to have! Maybe God's true wish is for us to become one, not in him in any sense, but as one human race. And that's the true way of becoming "one." Maybe God is us, and God is within us, and Heaven is here, right now, and we are the ones who can make it happen. Maybe the "Jesus" idea isn't about a person who came here in a body, but just a concept and we have to become Jesus-es. Not by believing in Christianity, not by believing Jesus is God's son, but believing that WE are God's sons and we become purified when we realize We are God, together. Are you willing to go there? This means that all religions are wrong, and they contain fractions of truths, but no religion contain the full truth. And not until we can let go of our childish beliefs in some "Santa Claus" version of God can we become really free. Do you think you're there yet? I think I'm a step closer to it, how about you?

[Guest end3]

There might be some other super-being, but the Bible does not describe a good God, and the events in the world proves it.

 

How can you even justify making a statement like that after reading the concept presented?

 

 

Or to put it in another way: the real events in the world does not fit into the model the Bible try to explain.

 

I am eager to hear an example, truthfully, as am not pretending to be a know it all anymore...

 

 

 

Consider this: if God doesn't want to interact because he doesn't want to interfere with "free will", could he not at least remove the pain the innocent victims feel when they're tortured and killed? Why do they have to suffer? What kind of free will are they expressing by being forced to feel pain and agony? God could do many things without violating the free will of the evil people, but yet he choose not to. The answer is: either God isn't at all anything like what the Bible say he is, or there isn't any God at all. Either way, Christianity lose, because it doesn't hold the truth.

 

I don't see it like that Hans, I see it as Jesus is your last chance, period, no more chances...I do think it unlikly that God removes pain, but, I have had accidents over the years and the pain never started until the "shock was over" so to speak.....so I don't know the whole story there..

 

And your idea that the Bible talks about a "body of Christ" isn't new, I heard about that idea 25 years ago when I was a kid, and ever since, but here might be the answer: maybe the true body of God (not Christ necessarily) is all humanity, good and bad, and we all are images of the divine. Our efforts to reach perfection is the divine essence in us, and some of us might have to go through some "purification" for a while before we're entered into the heavenly sphere, but it isn't a matter of belief in the right version of religion, but a matter of just being human. Maybe even this is true, that the divine consciousness had only one want: to experience time, limitations, and death, and that we are that experience. We are the fulfillment of "God's" will to experience the finite, and we are fulfilling his/her/its will by just existing!

 

That sounds reasonable to me...

 

 

Maybe it goes even further that religion is the evil which God does not want us to have! Maybe God's true wish is for us to become one, not in him in any sense, but as one human race. And that's the true way of becoming "one." Maybe God is us, and God is within us, and Heaven is here, right now, and we are the ones who can make it happen. Maybe the "Jesus" idea isn't about a person who came here in a body, but just a concept and we have to become Jesus-es. Not by believing in Christianity, not by believing Jesus is God's son, but believing that WE are God's sons and we become purified when we realize We are God, together. Are you willing to go there?

 

Been leaning that way....

 

This means that all religions are wrong, and they contain fractions of truths, but no religion contain the full truth. And not until we can let go of our childish beliefs in some "Santa Claus" version of God can we become really free. Do you think you're there yet? I think I'm a step closer to it, how about you?

 

Last time I went to Sunday school two weeks ago, I defended you crackerheads for what it is worth, so yeah, I think I am a step closer myself...

 

I still believe the Book fits too well to the understanding I have....and although I think I am somehow past the regular sunday pewsitters, I am not to the point where I can be at ease with another belief.....primarily, because I don't.

 

Looking forward to your examples...

[Ouroboros]

Or to put it in another way: the real events in the world does not fit into the model the Bible try to explain.

 

I am eager to hear an example, truthfully, as am not pretending to be a know it all anymore...

Dude, have you read the Bible? Have you spent any time trying to read all of it, or do you just believe in the selected verses you pastor is giving you? Have you read about how God commands Israel to go to war, kill people, and spare none, and when they (by human empathy disobey and spare some) God gets angry and punishes Israel for disobedience!

 

Just look at it. The Bible on one side say that God cares for you, and loves you, and loves humanity... and yet innocents suffers insurmountable pain in the real world. If God created this world, and he lets people suffer, and with the outlook of eternal damnation, it doesn't fit the bill of a "loving" God. You still don't see it, do you?

 

The Old Testament describes a God who punishes, acts in rash anger, is emotional, even is described in the Bible as to being vengeful, angry and then regretting his actions, hating, making capital punishments by killing millions of people just because he's just pissed off, causing evil to flourish in the world, and is jealous (yes, even that is in the Bible, God is jealous). So if that's true, God isn't our salvation, he's the cause to our pain and suffering! Is that really a God you want to believe in?

[Guest end3]

Or to put it in another way: the real events in the world does not fit into the model the Bible try to explain.

 

I am eager to hear an example, truthfully, as am not pretending to be a know it all anymore...

Dude, have you read the Bible? Have you spent any time trying to read all of it, or do you just believe in the selected verses you pastor is giving you? Have you read about how God commands Israel to go to war, kill people, and spare none, and when they (by human empathy disobey and spare some) God gets angry and punishes Israel for disobedience!

 

Just look at it. The Bible on one side say that God cares for you, and loves you, and loves humanity... and yet innocents suffers insurmountable pain in the real world. If God created this world, and he lets people suffer, and with the outlook of eternal damnation, it doesn't fit the bill of a "loving" God. You still don't see it, do you?

 

The Old Testament describes a God who punishes, acts in rash anger, is emotional, even is described in the Bible as to being vengeful, angry and then regretting his actions, hating, making capital punishments by killing millions of people just because he's just pissed off, causing evil to flourish in the world, and is jealous (yes, even that is in the Bible, God is jealous). So if that's true, God isn't our salvation, he's the cause to our pain and suffering! Is that really a God you want to believe in?

 

You ever wonder why Israel remains Spirtually and as a dot in the midst of angry "donkey of a man" neighbors?

 

Have you made the right decision?

Please don't take offense to this but I am putting it out there as something to consider...

 

If I convince you of Jesus, you assuridly go to Heaven.

 

If you convince me otherwise, you have taken that away from yourself and someone else....even if Heaven is only hope...

[Brought None]

*sits back with a box of popcorn and watches with interest*

 

This is getting good.

[Ouroboros]

You ever wonder why Israel remains Spirtually and as a dot in the midst of angry "donkey of a man" neighbors?

Nope. I don't. Because if it was true, the Judaism would be the true religion, not Christianity. The Jews consider (through theology and correct interpretation of the Torah) Jesus to be a false teacher. So either they're right, and you're wrong, or they're wrong, and you're still wrong.

 

Have you made the right decision?

Please don't take offense to this but I am putting it out there as something to consider...

Well, I didn't lose my faith through a decision, but purely by not having the emotional strength to convince myself of imaginary friends anymore. I realized I was fooling myself by trying to convince myself that these things were true. When I stopped trying, there wasn't any miracle happening from God to save me from my own falling away.

 

If I convince you of Jesus, you assuridly go to Heaven.

Nah. I lived in the fantasy for the major part of my life, and spent years in hard core evangelical church, going to Bible school, going on mission trips, and knocking doors, and evangelizing in the downtown square. I've been to tens of thousands of meetings, and so far, nothing you've said have touched even the slightest of me "soul". I came to realize that any religion that separates humans are evil by nature. Only a religion that can unite humanity can be good and from any potential God. If Jesus means more war, more death, more destruction, then Jesus isn't good for humans. Jesus was the reason for the dark ages. Jesus was the reason to why the Catholic Church tortured people during the inquisition. Jesus is the reason why American were persecuting black people 100 years ago (or less). Secular views on humanity have changed this and made us better humans. I believe Jesus would make humanity worse and reverse 500 years back into the dark ages again.

 

If you convince me otherwise, you have taken that away from yourself and someone else....even if Heaven is only hope...

Nope. Sorry, I disagree.

 

If I heal a sick person, and take away his sickness, it's not like I've done something bad, but I have helped that person. He might love his sickness and prefer to be delude in his imaginary world, but he's still sick and by removing his sickness I haven't removed anything from myself. But if you want to stay in your delusion, it's fine by me, but don't think I won't respond and give you a piece of my mind each time you make a statement.

 

And btw, if I convince you of Ahura Mazda, then you will go to the Zoroastrian paradise.

 

Consider this, in Zoroastrianism, after death, the urvan (your soul) is allowed to meditate for three days on your past life. Then your urvan is judge by the troika, Mithra, Sraosha, and Rashnu. If your good actions, thoughts, and words are more than the bad ones, you're allowed into Heaven, if not, then you go to Hell for a cleansing period, which after it is done, you will be allowed into Heaven. So really, we all will go to Heaven, but some of us (those who let people live their lives and not interfere by restricting their choices) will go there first. Do you want to go there without having to go to the cleansing period in Hell?

[Guest end3]

Shit, I just looked over at your Thundergod avatar and noticed you are an orgasmist LOL LOL Sorry, I was laughing enough, it took the serious tension away. I used to be an orgasmist myself!

 

I am pondering your last post.

[Neon Genesis]

By the way, the terrorists responsible for this have been defeated

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/as_india_shooting "The Taj operation is over. The last two terrorists holed up there have been killed," Mumbai Police Chief Hasan Ghafoor told The Associated Press. J.K. Dutt, director general of India's elite National Security Guard commando unit, told reporters outside the hotel that his forces would continue to search and clear the hotel.

[Guest Near]

We will never get rid of terrorism. It's a matter of learning to live with it, and know how to protect ourselves.

 

Exactly, I say this all the time. It's like saying we're going to get rid of hatred. It'll never happen.

[Brought None]

We will never get rid of terrorism. It's a matter of learning to live with it, and know how to protect ourselves.

 

Exactly, I say this all the time. It's like saying we're going to get rid of hatred. It'll never happen.

 

Agreed.

[Guest end3]

Nope. I don't. Because if it was true, the Judaism would be the true religion, not Christianity. The Jews consider (through theology and correct interpretation of the Torah) Jesus to be a false teacher. So either they're right, and you're wrong, or they're wrong, and you're still wrong.

 

You consider Jesus to be a false teacher, so either I'm right and your wrong, or you

re wrong and still wrong.

 

Well, I didn't lose my faith through a decision, but purely by not having the emotional strength to convince myself of imaginary friends anymore. I realized I was fooling myself by trying to convince myself that these things were true. When I stopped trying, there wasn't any miracle happening from God to save me from my own falling away.

 

I have only been there for a short time, but I felt like God revealed Himself to me at one of my lowest faith times. I don't know what I would do really if it all left as I rely on the faith regularly.

 

Nah. I lived in the fantasy for the major part of my life, and spent years in hard core evangelical church, going to Bible school, going on mission trips, and knocking doors, and evangelizing in the downtown square. I've been to tens of thousands of meetings, and so far, nothing you've said have touched even the slightest of me "soul".

 

Probably why I am not a preacher....but your answer does not refute the statement.

 

I came to realize that any religion that separates humans are evil by nature. Only a religion that can unite humanity can be good and from any potential God. If Jesus means more war, more death, more destruction, then Jesus isn't good for humans. Jesus was the reason for the dark ages. Jesus was the reason to why the Catholic Church tortured people during the inquisition. Jesus is the reason why American were persecuting black people 100 years ago (or less). Secular views on humanity have changed this and made us better humans. I believe Jesus would make humanity worse and reverse 500 years back into the dark ages again.

 

You find all that history in the Bible?

 

Nope. Sorry, I disagree.

 

Since when is hope in a moral place a sickness?

 

Do you want to go there without having to go to the cleansing period in Hell?

 

Do you?

[Ouroboros]

You consider Jesus to be a false teacher, so either I'm right and your wrong, or you're wrong and still wrong.

Eh? You lost me on that one.

 

My statement is based on that Christianity is considered to be false religion by the Jews, which is the people you are referring to as being some form of sign from God to prove that Christianity is true. In other words, in your view God is taking care of his people, the Jews, and it would prove that they are the people of God, and that they are right. If they are right, then they are probably right about your religion, which means your religion is not the true religion, but the Jewish religion is the true one. If they believe in the true God, and that's what keeping them around, then their religion is the true one and not Christianity. But on the other hand, if Christianity is the true religion, then why doesn't Christianity have the same spiritual unity, country, and force as Israel? Why isn't the Catholic Church (one of the oldest, original Christian groups) just as spiritual and powerful? Why does Christianity tend to be the opposite to Israel, and not themselves signs of spiritual prowess and power? And lastly, if Christianity was true, then the Jews are wrong about Christianity. The Jews consider Christianity to be false, so they would have to be wrong, and if they're wrong about how to interpret their own religion, then they're wrong about their own religion, and the their whole religion comes into question, and we would have start to wonder about the foundation of Christianity too (since it's built on Jewish faith). So you see, you lose or lose.

 

I have only been there for a short time, but I felt like God revealed Himself to me at one of my lowest faith times. I don't know what I would do really if it all left as I rely on the faith regularly.

Yeah. That's you. God have favorites. During the last 10 years of my faith I needed God to reveal himself, but he never did. Not until I took fate in my own hands and fight using my own power, and stop trusting some imaginary creature to intervene, would things turn around. Now I'm fighting in my own power, and get results. (I'm having yet another one next week. Something that escalated the last couple of months, and now we're going to court hearing again... my sons case have not stopped being an issue... and we're now going on 12 years. God has still not done any miracles, besides proving that strength comes from humans, good or bad.)

 

Nah. I lived in the fantasy for the major part of my life, and spent years in hard core evangelical church, going to Bible school, going on mission trips, and knocking doors, and evangelizing in the downtown square. I've been to tens of thousands of meetings, and so far, nothing you've said have touched even the slightest of me "soul".

 

Probably why I am not a preacher....but your answer does not refute the statement.

Eh? Seriously, you haven't touched my "soul" in any sense to make a point about Jesus or give me the "chills" and think that, "oh, Jesus must be real," or something like that. So yeah, I think my statement is valid. If you believe that you somehow are getting through to us and some spooky action of spiritual essence is moving us, you really are fooling yourself. Basically, it's not working, God isn't moving me or talking to me or touching me or anything. You might wish he did. But seriously, I'm not feeling any influence. (I do feel a bit bloated from the great dinner last night, but that's about it. And a bit sleepy. But I couldn't sleep, because I'm planning strategies for next week. My head is going around and putting pieces together, like what I'm going to say to the judge.)

 

I came to realize that any religion that separates humans are evil by nature. Only a religion that can unite humanity can be good and from any potential God. If Jesus means more war, more death, more destruction, then Jesus isn't good for humans. Jesus was the reason for the dark ages. Jesus was the reason to why the Catholic Church tortured people during the inquisition. Jesus is the reason why American were persecuting black people 100 years ago (or less). Secular views on humanity have changed this and made us better humans. I believe Jesus would make humanity worse and reverse 500 years back into the dark ages again.

 

You find all that history in the Bible?

No, in the history of Christianity. Have you read any history books about the last 2,000 years, and what Christianity really has brought to the world? Do you seriously believe Christianity has been a blessing to the world and is any different or any better than other religions? You might say, "they were not true Christians," but I have a hard time accepting that, because for 1,000 years the Catholic Church was largest, and most united power and faith, and it was the Church that brought you the Bible. It is the Church from where you come. It is the mother of your Church. Luther came from the Catholic Church. Just because he took what he felt was the better parts, and threw away other parts, doesn't make his views of what the "True Church" is any more true than the original. The Catholic Church was the Body of Christ for a very long time, until secular philosophy and science started to break it apart and bring in some light and humanity again.

 

Have you seen the torture equipment they used during the inquisition? It's gruesome. Really scary what they did. And they did it in the name of the Christian God. Not in the name of Allah, or Santa Clause, or the Cute Bunny, or Buddha, or Darwin, but in the name of Jesus. You have to wake up from your childish dreamworld and see the true story behind your religion. It is not like some cuddly bedtime story, but is full of war, hate, prejudice, and crimes.

 

Since when is hope in a moral place a sickness?

Christianity isn't only about "hope", but about imagination and delusional beliefs in some just God who wants all good for you but let you suffer anyway. To have hope in general is just having hope and isn't a sickness, but to spread ideas that causes strife between humans are causing harm on humanity. That is a sickness on the Body of Humanity, which is larger than your Body of Christ. And the Body of Humanity is suffering, because of religious intolerance and hatred. Your thread here is about a terrorist attack based on religious intolerance and differences. Do you think Christianity would solve the world problems if everyone in the world were forced to believe in it? If we would as a "Christian Nation" go to a religious war and bomb all "evil" terrorists in the world, and force all countries to become Christian, have we then solved the problem? Or is the answer that we should force the right to believe whatever we want without someone forcing us?

 

Do you want to go there without having to go to the cleansing period in Hell?

 

Do you?

Eh? Do you? Do you want to go the Zoroastrian Heaven or not? You're talking about true religion here. Zoroastrianism is the True Faith, and you need to repent to get the shortcut to Heaven. Maybe I should pray to Mithra to touch your soul and you will realize that Ahura Mazda is the true God?

[Ouroboros]

Exactly, I say this all the time. It's like saying we're going to get rid of hatred. It'll never happen.

And the hatred is founded in the view: "I'm better than you." It's all comes from group think, that "my group is better than yours, and I'm the best in my group, so I'm very much better than you are, and therefore when I do something that seems evil, it's still good, because I mean my good things to come about, and undo all your evil things." Or put it this way, a person usually do things, and when he do something good he thinks he does them because he's a good person, however, when he does something bad, he thinks it's either necessary for some greater good he has planned, or that he just made a mistake, but he still doesn't see himself as evil. At the same time, his view on other people, outside the group he belongs to, is that they are evil and act from evil intentions.

 

Or in other words, when his "enemies" do something bad, he believe they do it because they are evil or have evil intentions, while if their enemy do something good, he believe they did so by mistake and didn't intend good things to come about. So we judge our own actions from our intentions, and we judge other peoples intentions from their actions, and presupposes people outside our group to have evil nature, and ourselves to be of good nature, but fail to see when we act just as evil as them. When we torture someone, it's because we want something good to come out of it, but when or enemies are torturing someone, they do it because they're just pure evil. If we bomb innocent people, we do it to protect ourselves and we just have to, but when our enemies bomb us, they do it because they hate us. This is how we all think, if we want it or not, and that's what causing the separation, and that separation grows hate.

[agnosticator]

Since when is hope in a moral place a sickness?

 

Sorry for butting in...

 

Since it is false hope. How is it a moral place when good people who don't believe are excluded and sent somewhere else to be tortured?

[Deva]

I see your point Ms. Deva. I believe we are to reach a point where we can understand the truth during our days. I see God of the old testament exacting the final judgement on the spot as opposed to giving people time to contemplate their actions etc... I see Jesus as many things, perhaps a direction giver guiding humanity to Heaven. I see the Holy Spirit as an entity that "bumps" us to seeing the truth to a situation. So yes, I think we ought to be able to understand how to behave to situations presented to us. Again, the difference in the OT would be like Heaven existing on earth......you "do this" or "are this" or you won't participate in Heaven, where now we are to learn to discern the truth and act and move towards a place with God, understanding no one gets there now except through Jesus simply because we can't. And I think this shows compassion, but y'all are right, it raises some interesting questions regarding God. Regarding the terrorist and judgement...I believe if these men were to enter Heaven where God the father resides, then "poof", they would be no more due to their actions, just like in the OT.

 

Interesting response, End. You really see things in a different way. Not that I could ever accept it. Jesus is the only way to Heaven, and there is no other? I think even when I was a Christian, I found that proposition a bit dicey.

 

Do you think that the wicked, when they are destroyed by God, simply disappear?

 

Yes, I think the difference between the Old Testament God and the New Testament God raises some interesting questions about this entity "God" which the Biblical writers were constructing. I do not believe such an entity exists.

 

I can't quite fathom why you are hanging out on this Board with a bunch of unbelievers unless (1)its to try to convert us and /or (2) continually trying to convince yourself we are wrong and so be strengthened in your faith.

[chefranden]

In a moral world, there would be no need for defense....like in Heaven.

 

If God can't make a perfectly moral world here, why trust him with heaven? Anyway heaven can't be a moral place because it is not a just place. The raping preacher who believes can get in, but the rapee that can't believe because god failed her can't get in.

 

In addition heaven can't be a moral place, because, I'm supposing, God won't allow sin there. If you can't sin you can't be moral. Is a tree moral? It never sins. So I doubt it. In order for heaven to be a moral place God must allow sin. If heaven were sinless because of the morals of the people there then there is no reason God can't choose to have only moral people born upon the earth making the earth as moral as heaven.

 

Problem is, End, you just never think these things trough. "Heaven is a perfect place." That is the end of your thoughts on the matter. The same goes for your idea on the church being the body of Christ. If the church is Christ on earth then Christ is a sinner, weak, incompetent, gay, an adulterer, a liar, a cheat, and so on and on. You use this concept to explain the absence of God but you don't take your thoughts far enough. In point of fact God is absent because God is not. This is the simplest and therefore the best explanation. It doesn't require any convoluted thinking to understand.

 

Not my concept....an inspired Paul?

 

Fuck Paul. Here is another case of your non-thinking. Paul is not an original disciple. Paul is the one that started your church. Paul fought with the original disciples calling them Judaizers, and expected people not to follow them. If Paul was inspired, rather than nuts, then this means that Jesus wasn't competent enough to choose and train his revelators while on earth. If Paul wasn't inspired and just took over then Christianity has been dead since before it started.

 

You too, please read the post submitted to Ms. Deva.

 

I read it. You still choose Rambo because you know in your heart of hearts in the depths of your uncharted (and apparently unconscious) being that God will not act. And God will not act, because God cannot act, else why not say "let go and let God" about the matter? Why not say "return good for evil," like you are told to? I say that you don't say them because you know in your heart of hearts in the depths of your uncharted (and apparently unconscious) being that this is bullshit.