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Justin
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Why should we all be held accountable and punished for sin when it is something that cannot be helped? I mean sin is inescapable and the Bible says that only Christ was free from sin, (how impressive, you'd expect that from the son of god). If there was one normal person who never sinned in their entire life, then you might have a point in saying that it could be helped. But since it is impossible to go one's entire life without sinning, why punish them for something they cannot help. It would be like punishing somebody for sneezing, coughing or stumping their toe or some other such inescapable thing that is bound to happen in one's life at some point at least once or frequently through out it.

 

The whole concept is silly. Any christians want to attempt a decent explanation?

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You can even take it one step further...Why give us hormones and hot chicks if we aren't suppose to lust? It is our nature. (And yes, I know the Christian response of "For procreation blah, blah, blah")

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Why should we all be held accountable and punished for sin when it is something that cannot be helped? I mean sin is inescapable and the Bible says that only Christ was free from sin, (how impressive, you'd expect that from the son of god). If there was one normal person who never sinned in their entire life, then you might have a point in saying that it could be helped. But since it is impossible to go one's entire life without sinning, why punish them for something they cannot help. It would be like punishing somebody for sneezing, coughing or stumping their toe or some other such inescapable thing that is bound to happen in one's life at some point at least once or frequently through out it.

 

The whole concept is silly. Any christians want to attempt a decent explanation?

 

The bolded part is just the argument I use to counter Christian's claims that man has "free will" in regards to sin. I mean, what are the odds that, given free will, ALL people "choose" to sin?

 

I have never gotten an answer.

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You can even take it one step further...Why give us hormones and hot chicks if we aren't suppose to lust? It is our nature. (And yes, I know the Christian response of "For procreation blah, blah, blah")

Without lust there is no procreation.

 

mwc

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This might be a good topic for Lion's Den...want it moved?

 

Sure

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This might be a good topic for Lion's Den...want it moved?

 

Thanks for moving it Amethyst. I should have posted it here to begin with.

 

Any christians want to try and answer this now?

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This might be a good topic for Lion's Den...want it moved?

 

Thanks for moving it Amethyst. I should have posted it here to begin with.

 

Any christians want to try and answer this now?

 

Ohh!, ooh!, Mr. Kotter..

 

I might agree with you without Christ in the picture. Do you not agree?

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This might be a good topic for Lion's Den...want it moved?

 

Thanks for moving it Amethyst. I should have posted it here to begin with.

 

Any christians want to try and answer this now?

 

Ohh!, ooh!, Mr. Kotter..

 

I might agree with you without Christ in the picture. Do you not agree?

 

Without Christ in the picture what? Are you saying that since Christ never sinned then it is possible for us to not do it too? Or are you saying that since he paid the ultimate price for sin on the cross then we are not punished by sin? If it is the former you are speaking of then i already addressed that. If it is the latter, well we still very much have to pay the price for the unavoidable thing called sin, with or without Christ's death. We still die as a result of sin, there are wars, diseases, famines, suffering and horrible things still on earth as a result of sin. All punishment rendered to us because of sin.

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This might be a good topic for Lion's Den...want it moved?

 

Thanks for moving it Amethyst. I should have posted it here to begin with.

 

Any christians want to try and answer this now?

 

Ohh!, ooh!, Mr. Kotter..

 

I might agree with you without Christ in the picture. Do you not agree?

 

Without Christ in the picture what? Are you saying that since Christ never sinned then it is possible for us to not do it too? Or are you saying that since he paid the ultimate price for sin on the cross then we are not punished by sin? If it is the former you are speaking of then i already addressed that. If it is the latter, well we still very much have to pay the price for the unavoidable thing called sin, with or without Christ's death. We still die as a result of sin, there are wars, diseases, famines, suffering and horrible things still on earth as a result of sin. All punishment rendered to us because of sin.

 

You are saying it is injust to have sin in your life even though you can't help it, but justice was not served by Christ giving you His life as a replacement?

 

Reminds me of elementary school....we could get cinnamon toast for desert if we finished all of our food. Thank goodness for the one guy that when you asked him if you could pile the inedible apple sauce on his plate so you could get the desert, he always said yes.....

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Really sin in the world is completely God's fault. He created Satan knowing what he would eventually do. He knew Satan would rebel and he cast Satan out of Heaven knowing full well that it would have worse ramifications. Instead of getting rid of the cancer he allowed Satan to enter the Garden of Eden to manipulate the naive and clueless Adam and Eve.

 

God, when he created Adam and Eve, knew that ultimately he would be cursing all of his creations. He knew that sin woud ruin everything, but he put no contingencies in place to prevent any of this mess. In fact he made matters worse by putting a tree in the garden as a test, a test he knew they would fail.

 

This to me is like leaving your child in the same house with a known paedophile that you know is going to molest your child. A loving, caring , responsible parent does not do that, but yet God did just the same thing by leaving Adam and Eve alone with Satan.

 

He created Hell and the bible supposedly says it was intended for Satan and his demons, yet God is omniscient and must have known it would be ultimately used to deal with the majority of his human creations.

 

Justin you are absolutely right with what you are saying. To blame man for the sin that results because of God's apathy, because of Satan's manipulations of their naivety, because he took no steps to prevent sin from sullying his creation, because he refused to do anything about Satan, shows a very incompetent and cruel God. He created our human natures so must take some of the responsibility for us acting the way he created us.

 

This is exactly the same as a parent infecting their unborn child with HIV and then punishing them when they get sick.

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This might be a good topic for Lion's Den...want it moved?

 

Thanks for moving it Amethyst. I should have posted it here to begin with.

 

Any christians want to try and answer this now?

 

Ohh!, ooh!, Mr. Kotter..

 

I might agree with you without Christ in the picture. Do you not agree?

 

 

Are you saying that one can resist "sinning" with Christ in their life?

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Another thought I just had is, if sin is inherited in humans, and Jesus was without sin, then he wasn't truly a human. The church claims Jesus was 100% human and 100% God, but he can't have been 100% human, since sin is something supposedly part of being human. So either Jesus inherited the same sin as all of us, but could resist it, or he didn't inherit it because he was never a human. It's just another example of how the church wants to eat the cake and still keep it.

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You are saying it is injust to have sin in your life even though you can't help it, but justice was not served by Christ giving you His life as a replacement?

 

Reminds me of elementary school....we could get cinnamon toast for desert if we finished all of our food. Thank goodness for the one guy that when you asked him if you could pile the inedible apple sauce on his plate so you could get the desert, he always said yes.....

 

I'm saying it is unjust to be punished for what cannot be helped. As i already pointed out, twice now, christ's death on the cross only solved being eternally punished for sin. We still have to suffer and go through trails and hardships anyway. Death itself is punishment for sin.

 

While we are on the topic of christ's death, i will say that it was nothing more than self righteous suicide. The entire world was thrown into a tailspin of death and decay by two people eating fruit! Fruit from a tree that should never have been put there in the first place. The only reason it was there was to tempt. God knew fully well what would transpire as soon as me created man and put them in Eden, yet did nothing to stop what would happen. Adam and Eve were not perfect so they would have been prone to sin, something that is inescapable, something that they should not be punished for. Then there is giving satan dominion of the earth. Why didn't he just do away with satan as soon as he rebelled? Why did he create him for if he knew right out of the gate what would happen, that he would take control of the earth and tempt mankind for thousands of years? Simply put, humans are the created. If the created show problems, then that is the fault of the creator.

 

This is why i view Christ's death on the cross as a joke. Perhaps he felt guilty for it being all his fault and simply killed himself.

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This is why i view Christ's death on the cross as a joke. Perhaps he felt guilty for it being all his fault and simply killed himself.

 

Or just simply as...fiction.

 

Yes, i'm talking hypothetically.

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Another thought I just had is, if sin is inherited in humans, and Jesus was without sin, then he wasn't truly a human. The church claims Jesus was 100% human and 100% God, but he can't have been 100% human, since sin is something supposedly part of being human. So either Jesus inherited the same sin as all of us, but could resist it, or he didn't inherit it because he was never a human. It's just another example of how the church wants to eat the cake and still keep it.

 

Good observation.

 

The church claims lots of stuff that just ain't so (allusion to Artemus ward).

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This is why i view Christ's death on the cross as a joke. Perhaps he felt guilty for it being all his fault and simply killed himself.

 

A joke? A friggin' miracle if you ask me.

 

I would love to see someone commit suicide by crucifixion. Just nailing that first nail into their own feet would be worth the price of admission.

(How they get the last nail in would be pretty AMAZING!)

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This is why i view Christ's death on the cross as a joke. Perhaps he felt guilty for it being all his fault and simply killed himself.

 

A joke? A friggin' miracle if you ask me.

 

I would love to see someone commit suicide by crucifixion. Just nailing that first nail into their own feet would be worth the price of admission.

(How they get the last nail in would be pretty AMAZING!)

It's suicide in the fact that he engineered his own death. It was his will.

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I\'m saying it is unjust to be punished for what cannot be helped. As i already pointed out, twice now, christ\'s death on the cross only solved being eternally punished for sin. We still have to suffer and go through trails and hardships anyway. Death itself is punishment for sin.

 

While we are on the topic of christ\'s death, i will say that it was nothing more than self righteous suicide. The entire world was thrown into a tailspin of death and decay by two people eating fruit! Fruit from a tree that should never have been put there in the first place. The only reason it was there was to tempt. God knew fully well what would transpire as soon as me created man and put them in Eden, yet did nothing to stop what would happen. Adam and Eve were not perfect so they would have been prone to sin, something that is inescapable, something that they should not be punished for. Then there is giving satan dominion of the earth. Why didn\'t he just do away with satan as soon as he rebelled? Why did he create him for if he knew right out of the gate what would happen, that he would take control of the earth and tempt mankind for thousands of years? Simply put, humans are the created. If the created show problems, then that is the fault of the creator.

 

This is why i view Christ\'s death on the cross as a joke. Perhaps he felt guilty for it being all his fault and simply killed himself.

 

Perhaps friend, we don\'t know the complete story.....if you choose to believe it, then you have been born into the story, not much more than that. If you don\'t believe, there you are. Wish I had something better to offer.

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QUOTE: "Why should we all be held accountable and punished for sin when it is something that cannot be helped? "

 

QUOTE: "...what are the odds that, given free will, ALL people "choose" to sin? I have never gotten an answer."

 

---

 

 

Nor will you ever receive an answer, as the odds are nil.

 

Not because no-one will ever choose not to sin, but because, having been cursed by Adam's transgression to suffer the inheritance of of a sinful nature by divinely instigated yet Lamarckian method of inheritance of acquired characteristics, xtians fight shy of being led into an area of debate where this is the subject. It is one of a number of subjects which even they, in their usually delusional, trance-like state, realise they have no answers for.

 

Once you can, logically and rationally, demonstrate that god is the author of sin and that free will does not exist, xtians run away.

 

Personally, I enjoy the ensuing peace and silence.

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This is why i view Christ's death on the cross as a joke. Perhaps he felt guilty for it being all his fault and simply killed himself.

 

A joke? A friggin' miracle if you ask me.

 

I would love to see someone commit suicide by crucifixion. Just nailing that first nail into their own feet would be worth the price of admission.

(How they get the last nail in would be pretty AMAZING!)

It's suicide in the fact that he engineered his own death. It was his will.

 

A modern equivalent might be what is called "suicide by cop" — getting into a gun fight with the police with the intention of being shot to death.

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This is why i view Christ's death on the cross as a joke. Perhaps he felt guilty for it being all his fault and simply killed himself.

 

A joke? A friggin' miracle if you ask me.

 

I would love to see someone commit suicide by crucifixion. Just nailing that first nail into their own feet would be worth the price of admission.

(How they get the last nail in would be pretty AMAZING!)

It's suicide in the fact that he engineered his own death. It was his will.

 

A modern equivalent might be what is called "suicide by cop" — getting into a gun fight with the police with the intention of being shot to death.

 

I wouldn't even call it that. I would call it faking your own death. All powerful, ever-living God couldn't just bend the rules to allow his beloved to free forever. It's a bogus deal if you ask me.

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Perhaps friend, we don\'t know the complete story.....if you choose to believe it, then you have been born into the story, not much more than that. If you don\'t believe, there you are. Wish I had something better to offer.

 

Perhaps we don't. So what? What if "the rest of the story" shows God to be the prick that the abridged version indicates he is? Then what?

 

If sin were our fault then some would not need a savior. That is they would not sin, because having the capacity not to sin and choosing not to sin would mean they have no sin.

 

In fact at least part of scripture says this is so, that is your salvation depends on your own behavior not the behavior of a savior. Ez 18; Mt 25. 31-46

 

By the way, since you are no longer orthodox, why do you cling to this particular orthodox nonsense?

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Perhaps friend, we don\'t know the complete story.....if you choose to believe it, then you have been born into the story, not much more than that. If you don\'t believe, there you are. Wish I had something better to offer.

 

Then let me ask you something in sincere honesty. Why dedicate your entire life to an incomplete story and something that you can't come up with more to offer on?

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