Proud Of What You Haven't Done

[AKR]

I don't really care about the suffering of food animals because I think it reeks of anthropomorphism. I'm not saying they should be abused, just not that it factors into my diet choices (I eat cheese and eggs). But I do care about the suffering and starvation of humanity, and eating less meat or no meat at all frees up a whole lot of resources. I wish PETA would focus more on that, rather than on their anthropomorphic scare tactics, because all that does is cause the rest of society to have a warped understanding of the reasons why people choose to avoid animal products.

 

 

Anthropomorphizing? Are you telling me that only humans have emotions and pain sensors? Please don't tell me that's what you actually think.

[AKR]

And that's cool. You're a vegetarian, I don't mind that. It's when other vegetarians go on and on and on about how cruel I'm being to some damn chicken who was raised for it. I don't have anything against vegetarians who just don't eat meat, just as I don't have anything against people who don't drink caffeine-loaded drinks. But with vegetarians I meet it's evanglizing that rivals Xtian missionaries. "what about the poor animals?!?! and it's UBER HEALTHY!" Well, eating meat can be just as healthy (if you don't eat too much red meat). As for the animals, well, it sucks that they suffer, but refusing to eat meat isn't going to stop it.

 

 

Refusing to pay to have an animal abused and killed so you can eat it isn't stopping it from happening? Funny, I thought that's how the whole farming think worked. You pay for stuff and they do it/give it to you. Maybe you can explain to me how it really works. I guess where you're from, farmers abuse and kill animals just for fun?

[Vendredie]

Getting this thread back on topic, what do you guys think of this new "green" fad? Abstaining from raping the planet? "I use flourescent lightbulbs and drive a hybrid! I'm better than you!"

 

I can see why you'd avoid doing certain things (drugs, sex, etc.), and I certainly understand wanting to be environmentally friendly... but jsut SHUT UP.

[Guest Marty]

And that's cool. You're a vegetarian, I don't mind that. It's when other vegetarians go on and on and on about how cruel I'm being to some damn chicken who was raised for it. I don't have anything against vegetarians who just don't eat meat, just as I don't have anything against people who don't drink caffeine-loaded drinks. But with vegetarians I meet it's evanglizing that rivals Xtian missionaries. "what about the poor animals?!?! and it's UBER HEALTHY!" Well, eating meat can be just as healthy (if you don't eat too much red meat). As for the animals, well, it sucks that they suffer, but refusing to eat meat isn't going to stop it.

 

 

Refusing to pay to have an animal abused and killed so you can eat it isn't stopping it from happening? Funny, I thought that's how the whole farming think worked. You pay for stuff and they do it/give it to you. Maybe you can explain to me how it really works. I guess where you're from, farmers abuse and kill animals just for fun?

 

Exactly. I've been thinking this whole thread (although I do get what was meant in the OP) that we're focusing on the "what I'm not doing" aspect without considering that there is another side to that coin. There are repercussions that happen when you do not eat meat, such as the demand for animal products goes down, and the resourses used for their upkeep become available for humans. That's why I wrote in about vegetarianism; I just don't think it applies to the main idea of the thread. Not eating meat products is actually doing something, whereas not having sex is not doing anything.

 

And I'm not defending vegan evangelizing either. Evangelizing of any flavor is disgusting.

 

Anthropomorphizing? Are you telling me that only humans have emotions and pain sensors? Please don't tell me that's what you actually think

 

Of course not! But I think that is one of the weakest arguments to use against eating meat. I'm sure that animals feel pain and can suffer, but PETA and the like make it seem as if we get our food from Gitmo or some Nazi death camp. They focus so much on "animal suffering" and completely ignore the environmental and resource impact of raising meat for food that I feel it subtracts from the message and turns many people off, as evidenced in some of the comments in this thread about vegetarians.

 

The fact is that PETA does in fact anthropomorphize animals, and they shouldn't. I can take a pic of my dog looking at me from inside his cage as I walk out the front door and it looks just like a pic from a PETA brouchure. I could put a caption under it saying it was taken in China and he was eaten for dinner right after that pic was taken. Out of context it would look very sad, but reality is he's just sad I'm going to work, not because he's suffering one bit. PETA use pics with "sad" looking faces because it triggers the emotional responses they want.

 

I merely feel that focusing on the environmental impact of meat eating is a far better reason to eschew meat products, was all I was saying...

[Guest Marty]

I also do not see very much snobbery with the green movement either. I understand what you meant with the sex abstainers, Venderie, and I completely agree there, but I'm just not seeing your point with veggies and "greenies", other than you don't like the fact that they are vocal about how they are changing their lifestyle. Sure, I've encountered some snobs in both fields, but hardly all of them are like that. I certainly do not know of anyone who thinks they are "better" than you because you eat meat and they don't, or they ride a bicycle and you drive a car.

 

I can say for myself, that I am proud of the fact that I have vastly improved my diet and do not own a car anymore. I don't go around flaunting it, but I am proud of the changes I make in my life that make my health and/or station better. There is nothing wrong with pride, just they way you display it.

[AKR]

Exactly. I've been thinking this whole thread (although I do get what was meant in the OP) that we're focusing on the "what I'm not doing" aspect without considering that there is another side to that coin. There are repercussions that happen when you do not eat meat, such as the demand for animal products goes down, and the resourses used for their upkeep become available for humans. That's why I wrote in about vegetarianism; I just don't think it applies to the main idea of the thread. Not eating meat products is actually doing something, whereas not having sex is not doing anything.

 

And I'm not defending vegan evangelizing either. Evangelizing of any flavor is disgusting.

 

Anthropomorphizing? Are you telling me that only humans have emotions and pain sensors? Please don't tell me that's what you actually think

 

Of course not! But I think that is one of the weakest arguments to use against eating meat. I'm sure that animals feel pain and can suffer, but PETA and the like make it seem as if we get our food from Gitmo or some Nazi death camp. They focus so much on "animal suffering" and completely ignore the environmental and resource impact of raising meat for food that I feel it subtracts from the message and turns many people off, as evidenced in some of the comments in this thread about vegetarians.

 

The fact is that PETA does in fact anthropomorphize animals, and they shouldn't. I can take a pic of my dog looking at me from inside his cage as I walk out the front door and it looks just like a pic from a PETA brouchure. I could put a caption under it saying it was taken in China and he was eaten for dinner right after that pic was taken. Out of context it would look very sad, but reality is he's just sad I'm going to work, not because he's suffering one bit. PETA use pics with "sad" looking faces because it triggers the emotional responses they want.

 

I merely feel that focusing on the environmental impact of meat eating is a far better reason to eschew meat products, was all I was saying...

 

 

I think they should be focusing on both aspects, but there is nothing anthropomorphic about pointing out the fact that animals feel pain and emotions as well. To say it is anthropomorphic is implying that feelings are a uniquely human characteristic, which is flat out wrong. People that don't give a shit about animals feelings or lives tend to not give a shit about the environment either, so anyway they go about it, it's going to fall on deaf ears sometimes. You mention Gitmo and Nazi death camps. Do you actually know what goes on in a factory farm? I think I'd rather be at Gitmo or a Nazi death camp than some of these farms. It ain't pretty and there's nothing over dramatic about raising awareness about them.

 

 

 

 

Getting this thread back on topic, what do you guys think of this new "green" fad? Abstaining from raping the planet? "I use flourescent lightbulbs and drive a hybrid! I'm better than you!"

 

I can see why you'd avoid doing certain things (drugs, sex, etc.), and I certainly understand wanting to be environmentally friendly... but jsut SHUT UP.

 

 

 

I will not shut up. As long as you're on this planet with other creatures, you're going to have to deal with the consequences of your actions and everyone else's. If someone is doing drugs and it is only affecting them, I could care less. I'm not going to shove it in their face that I have never touched a drug in my life. I have friends that do drugs and don't screw anyone else's life up because of it, but when you're pointless and selfishly wasting energy and causing pollution, I'm going to say something and I think anyone who is trying to conserve energy and decrease pollution should be damn proud of it. You know what? I do think I am better than others who don't. Call me a snob, but I call people who don't do those things selfish douche bags. I'd rather be a green snob than a selfish douche bag. Are you going to call people snobs for not abusing their children? "Why should they be proud of not beating their children? And then they go around acting like they're better than people who do! What snobs!"

 

What the fuck is that? The fact is not being "green" is bad for everyone; it is abusing the planet and it's inhabitants, so please fucking excusing us for being proud of trying to not abuse the planet.

[Guest Marty]

I think they should be focusing on both aspects, but there is nothing anthropomorphic about pointing out the fact that animals feel pain and emotions as well. To say it is anthropomorphic is implying that feelings are a uniquely human characteristic, which is flat out wrong. People that don't give a shit about animals feelings or lives tend to not give a shit about the environment either, so anyway they go about it, it's going to fall on deaf ears sometimes. You mention Gitmo and Nazi death camps. Do you actually know what goes on in a factory farm? I think I'd rather be at Gitmo or a Nazi death camp than some of these farms. It ain't pretty and there's nothing over dramatic about raising awareness about them.

 

OK, I get your point. Maybe what I should say then is I disagree with the way PETA uses purely emotional arguments to argue for vegetarianism. I used the word Anthropomorphic because I feel they try to trigger the human emotional response and then get you to graft that emotion onto the animals. Never thought or meant to imply that I thought certain emotions are uniquely human, because I truly do not think that. Is there a word or phrase for this though?

 

And, yes, I am aware of what goes on in farms. I am a vegetarian, remember. It may not have been the determining factor in my "conversion", but it's what first got me thinking about it.

 

 

Getting this thread back on topic, what do you guys think of this new "green" fad? Abstaining from raping the planet? "I use flourescent lightbulbs and drive a hybrid! I'm better than you!"

 

I can see why you'd avoid doing certain things (drugs, sex, etc.), and I certainly understand wanting to be environmentally friendly... but jsut SHUT UP.

 

 

...Are you going to call people snobs for not abusing their children? "Why should they be proud of not beating their children? And then they go around acting like they're better than people who do! What snobs!"

 

What the fuck is that? The fact is not being "green" is bad for everyone; it is abusing the planet and it's inhabitants, so please fucking excusing us for being proud of trying to not abuse the planet.

 

Yet another angle I had failed to see before! Thanks!

 

I just try to live and let live, because I hate it when I get preached at about anything, including things I already am, like a vegetarian. But I do have to say I've been rather surprised at the frequency of negative reactions and remarks I get over something as trivial as what I choose to eat and/or avoid, or my chosen method of transportation. I honestly do not understand where or why the accusations of snobbery come from, not just because I do not see it all that much, but also because reducing your resource consumption should be viewed as a virtue, as it benefits everyone.

 

I never even bring it up; a recent example is I was asked to taste something at a party and I asked if it contained meat and was told yes. I said "No thanks" and then I get barraged with questions posed in a very confrontational tone, as if I was challenging the social order, by several people within earshot.

 

Was I a snob? No. Should I have just eaten it to keep the social peace at the expense of my beliefs? Should I have not explained my reasons for not eating meat? I certainly do not search things like this out; I hate it when I am the center of attention at places like parties, and hate being barraged by questions like that, yet it happens more often than not. Also, women seem to be far more interested and accepting of vegetarian diets than men are.

[Guest Nacirema]

...I disagree with legislating what can and can't be done inn privately owned restaurants and bars...

 

Would that include legislating against robbing in bars and restaurants? How about raping in bars and restaurants? How about legislating against fat people getting ripped and dancing nude on the bar? How about legislation against having a copy of Achy Breaky Heart on the Jukebox?

Robbing is a crime against individual rights, which is a proper function of government to prosecute. Plus, I imagine you'd be hard pressed to find a bartender who wouldn't want to press charges.

Raping - see above.

Fat people dancing nude on bars doesn't infringe on anyone's rights. Of course, similarly, as the owner of the property, the bartender has the right to kick that person out and ban him from his establishment.

 

 

As to the race argument...

Racism, sexism, and homophobia are three of the most primitive, blatant, and evil forms of collectivism. It is saying that a person is to be judged not on their accomplishments, morals, views, but on something that they had no control over. However, it is important to understand that this is not labeled just in regards to negative actions against those groups, but also in demands. Anyone who demands special social status, economic or political privilege simply another collectivist, demanding to be rewarded for what other men & women before them had actually fought and accomplished, and is engaging in the exact same mentality as the person who discriminates against them in the first place.

 

Briefly on the animals subject...

Animals feel pain yes. Emotions, possibly. I'll even say probably.

However, feeling pain and/or emotions is not what grants rights to people. It is the ability to use reason.

[Yrth]

However, feeling pain and/or emotions is not what grants rights to people. It is the ability to use reason.

So: children, comatose, disabled: they don't have the ability to use reason. Do they have rights?

 

Perhaps reason has nothing to do with rights? Perhaps rights are simply granted to people(interesting word) by other people? Something to think about

 

/two cents

[Guest Nacirema]

However, feeling pain and/or emotions is not what grants rights to people. It is the ability to use reason.

So: children, comatose, disabled: they don't have the ability to use reason. Do they have rights?

 

Perhaps reason has nothing to do with rights? Perhaps rights are simply granted to people(interesting word) by other people? Something to think about

 

/two cents

Rights can not be "granted" by anyone. Rights exist based on the nature of humans, which is that we are beings of volition, and are required to make rational choices in order to live.

 

Also, children can use reason. While not as fully developed, a child must still obtain a basic understanding of the physical world in order to function and live. Disabled people can still use reason, though it may be flawed - and I'm speaking from experience here. As for comatose, assuming they haven't been comatose their whole life, they have made their wishes clear with what to do. If not, then air on the side of caution (assuming that there are no extenuating circumstances).

[Guest Marty]

Briefly on the animals subject...

Animals feel pain yes. Emotions, possibly. I'll even say probably.

However, feeling pain and/or emotions is not what grants rights to people. It is the ability to use reason.

 

Not allowing animals to suffer should not be dependent on whether or not they can use reason. Most of what goes on in a farm situation is unnecessary to the task and motivated completely by greed; the desire to squeeze one more head of cattle in, or giving excess hormones to cows so they over produce milk and suffer a lifetime of stresses to meet an unnatural and unrealistic demand for the product, for example.

 

Reason or not, they are living creatures, and should be given some basic respect and consideration. At the very least they should be kept clean, comfortable, and fed the diet they evolved for.

[Vendredie]

Getting this thread back on topic, what do you guys think of this new "green" fad? Abstaining from raping the planet? "I use flourescent lightbulbs and drive a hybrid! I'm better than you!"

 

I can see why you'd avoid doing certain things (drugs, sex, etc.), and I certainly understand wanting to be environmentally friendly... but jsut SHUT UP.

 

 

 

I will not shut up. As long as you're on this planet with other creatures, you're going to have to deal with the consequences of your actions and everyone else's. If someone is doing drugs and it is only affecting them, I could care less. I'm not going to shove it in their face that I have never touched a drug in my life. I have friends that do drugs and don't screw anyone else's life up because of it, but when you're pointless and selfishly wasting energy and causing pollution, I'm going to say something and I think anyone who is trying to conserve energy and decrease pollution should be damn proud of it. You know what? I do think I am better than others who don't. Call me a snob, but I call people who don't do those things selfish douche bags. I'd rather be a green snob than a selfish douche bag. Are you going to call people snobs for not abusing their children? "Why should they be proud of not beating their children? And then they go around acting like they're better than people who do! What snobs!"

 

What the fuck is that? The fact is not being "green" is bad for everyone; it is abusing the planet and it's inhabitants, so please fucking excusing us for being proud of trying to not abuse the planet.

You just totally missed my point. My point is, YES, it's good to be "green" (a term I'm getting so sick of) and it's good to not abuse animals and it's okay to not do drugs or drink if you so choose. My point was that people who abstain tend to be HUGE FUCKING JERKS. "I will not shut up!" that's the point of my thread, and you're actually proving it. It's okay, honestly, to "go green". It's not when it's just a stupid fad that solely serves the purpose of allowing people to be self-righteous douchebags.

 

I'm not calling people snobs for *abstaining* from something, whether that's smoking, drinking, sex, being environmentally unfriendly, eating meat, etc. if you actually read my OP, you'd know that I wouldn't care that people did that, but rather I get really pissed when, say, non-smokers are all "SMOKING IS WRONG!" because that's just damn stupid. I was calling people snobs for actually being snobs about it.

 

You can go as green as you like. It's when you act like dicks to us "non-green" people because "it's good for everyone". I'm not arguing that it's good for everyone, I'm arguing that you're being a douche. Thank you for proving my point 100%.

[mwc]

Getting this thread back on topic, what do you guys think of this new "green" fad? Abstaining from raping the planet? "I use flourescent lightbulbs and drive a hybrid! I'm better than you!"

 

I can see why you'd avoid doing certain things (drugs, sex, etc.), and I certainly understand wanting to be environmentally friendly... but jsut SHUT UP.

In its current form it's just a few good ideas wrapped in a lot of poor, but increasingly profitable, implementation. Some of it will stick and the rest will pass as these things always do and come back rebranded as something else down the road.

 

Although this seems a tad different than not really doing anything. I do enjoy, for example, that people like to put mercury into the environment and most every "green solution" pumps out so many chemicals it essentially offsets itself (ie. batteries, solar panels) or isn't truly sustainable (ie. lithium). But I see that as "doing something." And for that I think they should be proud. At least they "solved" NIMBY for energy and smog production. A big "Thumbs Up!" from me.

 

We'll just bide our time until something smashes into our planet ending all human life...the very thing people seem to think will go on for billions and billions of years (if we just replace a few light bulbs right now...if only those dino's had a clue).

 

Maybe I'll sing me a different tune once version 3.0+ (I've lost count but we're well past 2.0 and I think we're supposed to forget nuclear) comes out in 10-20 years?

 

mwc

[Guest Marty]

Getting this thread back on topic, what do you guys think of this new "green" fad? Abstaining from raping the planet? "I use flourescent lightbulbs and drive a hybrid! I'm better than you!"

 

I can see why you'd avoid doing certain things (drugs, sex, etc.), and I certainly understand wanting to be environmentally friendly... but jsut SHUT UP.

 

 

 

I will not shut up. As long as you're on this planet with other creatures, you're going to have to deal with the consequences of your actions and everyone else's. If someone is doing drugs and it is only affecting them, I could care less. I'm not going to shove it in their face that I have never touched a drug in my life. I have friends that do drugs and don't screw anyone else's life up because of it, but when you're pointless and selfishly wasting energy and causing pollution, I'm going to say something and I think anyone who is trying to conserve energy and decrease pollution should be damn proud of it. You know what? I do think I am better than others who don't. Call me a snob, but I call people who don't do those things selfish douche bags. I'd rather be a green snob than a selfish douche bag. Are you going to call people snobs for not abusing their children? "Why should they be proud of not beating their children? And then they go around acting like they're better than people who do! What snobs!"

 

What the fuck is that? The fact is not being "green" is bad for everyone; it is abusing the planet and it's inhabitants, so please fucking excusing us for being proud of trying to not abuse the planet.

You just totally missed my point. My point is, YES, it's good to be "green" (a term I'm getting so sick of) and it's good to not abuse animals and it's okay to not do drugs or drink if you so choose. My point was that people who abstain tend to be HUGE FUCKING JERKS. "I will not shut up!" that's the point of my thread, and you're actually proving it. It's okay, honestly, to "go green". It's not when it's just a stupid fad that solely serves the purpose of allowing people to be self-righteous douchebags.

 

I'm not calling people snobs for *abstaining* from something, whether that's smoking, drinking, sex, being environmentally unfriendly, eating meat, etc. if you actually read my OP, you'd know that I wouldn't care that people did that, but rather I get really pissed when, say, non-smokers are all "SMOKING IS WRONG!" because that's just damn stupid. I was calling people snobs for actually being snobs about it.

 

You can go as green as you like. It's when you act like dicks to us "non-green" people because "it's good for everyone". I'm not arguing that it's good for everyone, I'm arguing that you're being a douche. Thank you for proving my point 100%.

 

I think what AKR was trying to say (at least the way I read it) is that it seems it is the ones who are not doing anything at all except business as usual that are the "snobs". I do not stand on a soapbox and preach the virtues of my lifestyle, yet when I do find that I have to speak of my diet, I am quite often berated by people who think it is "stupid" or a "pussy rabbit food diet", etc. The thing that really gets me about it is that I am asked by other people, and then every single reason I give is attacked as if I am attacking them.

 

Even in this post, I read that it is fine and dandy to live the way I do, but to keep my mouth shut about it. Is that not "snobbery"? This post was not started by me or a vegetarian, yet I'm told I should not speak up about it because I will then be a snob. After my first post about my reasons for abstaining from meat, some thought it necessary to make some "jokes". Isn't that a bit of snobbery, especially since I was not being preachy or condescending? OF course, now I'm going to be accused of being too sensitive, a cry baby, not taking a joke well, etc, but again, that would be missing the point. I don't get upset about this kind of thing, but I am very curious to know why it happens and even more important, why I am considered a snob and those who belittle me are not considered so. I also find that most "counter arguments" are mostly "jokes" and insults.

 

And again, what is so wrong about being proud of bettering yourself? I am proud of the way I live, and will defend it when it comes under attack.

[Vomit Comet]

As to the race argument...

Racism, sexism, and homophobia are three of the most primitive, blatant, and evil forms of collectivism. It is saying that a person is to be judged not on their accomplishments, morals, views, but on something that they had no control over. However, it is important to understand that this is not labeled just in regards to negative actions against those groups, but also in demands. Anyone who demands special social status, economic or political privilege simply another collectivist, demanding to be rewarded for what other men & women before them had actually fought and accomplished, and is engaging in the exact same mentality as the person who discriminates against them in the first place.

 

Oh great, another fundamentalist libertarian.

[Yrth]

However, feeling pain and/or emotions is not what grants rights to people. It is the ability to use reason.

So: children, comatose, disabled: they don't have the ability to use reason. Do they have rights?

 

Perhaps reason has nothing to do with rights? Perhaps rights are simply granted to people(interesting word) by other people? Something to think about

 

/two cents

Rights can not be "granted" by anyone. Rights exist based on the nature of humans, which is that we are beings of volition, and are required to make rational choices in order to live.

 

Also, children can use reason. While not as fully developed, a child must still obtain a basic understanding of the physical world in order to function and live. Disabled people can still use reason, though it may be flawed - and I'm speaking from experience here. As for comatose, assuming they haven't been comatose their whole life, they have made their wishes clear with what to do. If not, then air on the side of caution (assuming that there are no extenuating circumstances).

 

*gingerly wades into conversation*

 

Small children can't use the reason your talking about. For instance, an infant of six months has less 'reason' than a chimpanzee, a dolphin, and quite possibly a goldfish. When you start assigning worth by arbitrary criteria you wind up like Tooley, an unhappy ethicist who thinks its perfectly acceptable to kill kids under the age of two years because they don't yet meet the requirements of 'personhood.' Also, you may want to consider the fact that people are unable to use their 'reason' while asleep. So, according to your line of thinking, their rights switch on and off each night.

 

Rights are an interesting and recent thought experiment. Useful for some things, horrible for others. They're granted and guarded by people - but that doesn't detract from them, in case you were worrying. Imo.

[AKR]

You just totally missed my point. My point is, YES, it's good to be "green" (a term I'm getting so sick of) and it's good to not abuse animals and it's okay to not do drugs or drink if you so choose. My point was that people who abstain tend to be HUGE FUCKING JERKS. "I will not shut up!" that's the point of my thread, and you're actually proving it. It's okay, honestly, to "go green". It's not when it's just a stupid fad that solely serves the purpose of allowing people to be self-righteous douchebags.

 

I'm not calling people snobs for *abstaining* from something, whether that's smoking, drinking, sex, being environmentally unfriendly, eating meat, etc. if you actually read my OP, you'd know that I wouldn't care that people did that, but rather I get really pissed when, say, non-smokers are all "SMOKING IS WRONG!" because that's just damn stupid. I was calling people snobs for actually being snobs about it.

 

You can go as green as you like. It's when you act like dicks to us "non-green" people because "it's good for everyone". I'm not arguing that it's good for everyone, I'm arguing that you're being a douche. Thank you for proving my point 100%.

 

 

I'm not sure how I proved your point. I read your OP and your OP is fucking stupid and it certainly sounds the exact same as the post I replied to. Why shouldn't we be proud of things we don't do? You still haven't told me why people shouldn't be proud of not doing things. Shouldn't I be proud of not being a rapist, or a racist, or a murderer, or a pedophile? Why shouldn't we be proud of things we don't do? Your argument and rants are so god damn stupid they hurt my brain. You're the fucking douche here. If you eat animals and don't care about how they are treated, you're a douche. If you don't care about taking care of the planet, you're a douche. Now stop whining about being a douche and being called on it...douche.

 

You're like a pedophile who throws a fit over people who are proud that they don't fuck children and tell others not to. Yes, I just compared you to a child molester. Throw another fit, bitch. You're hurting others because of your choices and pissing yourself when getting called on it. Whine, whine, whine, motherfucker.

 

 

 

 

However, feeling pain and/or emotions is not what grants rights to people. It is the ability to use reason.

So: children, comatose, disabled: they don't have the ability to use reason. Do they have rights?

 

Perhaps reason has nothing to do with rights? Perhaps rights are simply granted to people(interesting word) by other people? Something to think about

 

/two cents

Rights can not be "granted" by anyone. Rights exist based on the nature of humans, which is that we are beings of volition, and are required to make rational choices in order to live.

 

Also, children can use reason. While not as fully developed, a child must still obtain a basic understanding of the physical world in order to function and live. Disabled people can still use reason, though it may be flawed - and I'm speaking from experience here. As for comatose, assuming they haven't been comatose their whole life, they have made their wishes clear with what to do. If not, then air on the side of caution (assuming that there are no extenuating circumstances).

 

 

Those are some pretty vague attributes. All living creatures have to make rational choices in order to live, and before you say "dur, they use instincts," I can say the same for humans. Children under a certain age aren't half as "intelligent" and able to use reason as many animals; retarded people have even fewer reasoning skills. Sorry, champ, but you don't get to tell everyone that humans have rights because of some vague, and non-unique abilities and expect us to nod our heads in mindless agreement. You can try to make your bias sound intelligent, but it simply goes back to your instinctual preference for beings simply based on your DNA. There is no other rational reason to grant anything rights based on anything other than the ability to feel discomfort, whether mentally or physically.

[Vendredie]

You just totally missed my point. My point is, YES, it's good to be "green" (a term I'm getting so sick of) and it's good to not abuse animals and it's okay to not do drugs or drink if you so choose. My point was that people who abstain tend to be HUGE FUCKING JERKS. "I will not shut up!" that's the point of my thread, and you're actually proving it. It's okay, honestly, to "go green". It's not when it's just a stupid fad that solely serves the purpose of allowing people to be self-righteous douchebags.

 

I'm not calling people snobs for *abstaining* from something, whether that's smoking, drinking, sex, being environmentally unfriendly, eating meat, etc. if you actually read my OP, you'd know that I wouldn't care that people did that, but rather I get really pissed when, say, non-smokers are all "SMOKING IS WRONG!" because that's just damn stupid. I was calling people snobs for actually being snobs about it.

 

You can go as green as you like. It's when you act like dicks to us "non-green" people because "it's good for everyone". I'm not arguing that it's good for everyone, I'm arguing that you're being a douche. Thank you for proving my point 100%.

 

 

I'm not sure how I proved your point. I read your OP and your OP is fucking stupid and it certainly sounds the exact same as the post I replied to. Why shouldn't we be proud of things we don't do? You still haven't told me why people shouldn't be proud of not doing things. Shouldn't I be proud of not being a rapist, or a racist, or a murderer, or a pedophile? Why shouldn't we be proud of things we don't do? Your argument and rants are so god damn stupid they hurt my brain. You're the fucking douche here. If you eat animals and don't care about how they are treated, you're a douche. If you don't care about taking care of the planet, you're a douche. Now stop whining about being a douche and being called on it...douche.

 

You're like a pedophile who throws a fit over people who are proud that they don't fuck children and tell others not to. Yes, I just compared you to a child molester. Throw another fit, bitch. You're hurting others because of your choices and pissing yourself when getting called on it. Whine, whine, whine, motherfucker.

You still didn't get my point. It's one thing if you say "I don't smoke because it's not healthy, and I don't think people should smoke at all." Okay, that's your opinion. It's just plain retarded to start lobbyist groups, all these other campaigns that repeat the same stupid cliches over and over and over just so people don't do what you don't want them to do. Kind of like fundies and homosexuality. Fucking get it now? If it makes you happy, you have a right to state your opinion about something. It's just when it turns into puritanical wanking is when it gets annoying. (I hope this clears things up for anyone else).

 

I really don't appreciate the flaming, either. That was totally uncalled for. You have totally 100% proven my point now. I went against the 'green' fad because that's what it is, a fucking FAD. It's not about saving the planet anymore. Saving the planet is something we all should have been doing all along. But now corporations are cashing in on environmental concerns. Any fucking bag can be re-used as a grocery bag. You don't need a special one. It's a totally noble idea to want to save the earth. It's just dickish to flaunt it like some non-smoker implying that smokers are evil, careless, etc.

 

I can understand why people wouldn't want to pollute, smoke, drink, have sex, or eat meat. And I respect those who do AND don't. As I said, it's one thing to be open and state your reasons why you wouldn't do something. It's another to cram it down people's throats like some sort of religion.

 

Really, lay off the flaming. No, I'm not proud of not being a rapist/pedophile/murderer/etc, but I am proud of being a decent person who wouldn't do shit like that. Again, you totally 100% proved my point. You're being a douche to people who do what you don't want them to do. Not only that, you're being a douche to me for no fucking reason whatsoever. You can disagree all you like with me, but I'm not going to just let you call me a douche, bitch, and a child molester.

[AKR]

You still didn't get my point. It's one thing if you say "I don't smoke because it's not healthy, and I don't think people should smoke at all." Okay, that's your opinion. It's just plain retarded to start lobbyist groups, all these other campaigns that repeat the same stupid cliches over and over and over just so people don't do what you don't want them to do. Kind of like fundies and homosexuality. Fucking get it now? If it makes you happy, you have a right to state your opinion about something. It's just when it turns into puritanical wanking is when it gets annoying. (I hope this clears things up for anyone else).

 

I really don't appreciate the flaming, either. That was totally uncalled for. You have totally 100% proven my point now. I went against the 'green' fad because that's what it is, a fucking FAD. It's not about saving the planet anymore. Saving the planet is something we all should have been doing all along. But now corporations are cashing in on environmental concerns. Any fucking bag can be re-used as a grocery bag. You don't need a special one. It's a totally noble idea to want to save the earth. It's just dickish to flaunt it like some non-smoker implying that smokers are evil, careless, etc.

 

I can understand why people wouldn't want to pollute, smoke, drink, have sex, or eat meat. And I respect those who do AND don't. As I said, it's one thing to be open and state your reasons why you wouldn't do something. It's another to cram it down people's throats like some sort of religion.

 

Really, lay off the flaming. No, I'm not proud of not being a rapist/pedophile/murderer/etc, but I am proud of being a decent person who wouldn't do shit like that. Again, you totally 100% proved my point. You're being a douche to people who do what you don't want them to do. Not only that, you're being a douche to me for no fucking reason whatsoever. You can disagree all you like with me, but I'm not going to just let you call me a douche, bitch, and a child molester.

 

Lay off the flaming? Go fuck yourself. How's that? You called me a douche, so you get called a douche back. You also told us to shut up and not tell people what not to do. Don't like it, then don't start it. Quit acting like it's for no reason, you moron. Look at the thread you started and how you responded to me and some others. I get your point just fine. I don't know why you keep repeating yourself when it should seem pretty damn clear that I get your point; I just think it's a fucking stupid failure of a point. I never called you a child molester, genius - I compared you to one.

 

 

I'm not sure what religion has to do with telling other people to respect the environment and it's other inhabitants. Why shouldn't we? Should we stop telling people to rape and torture others? You say you're not proud of not being a rapist/pedophile/etc, but you're proud of not doing things like that. Are your retarded? You just said you're not proud of not being those things and then said you are proud of not being those things. lol, what the fuck is wrong with you? You keep repeating yourself like I don't get what you're saying, and ignoring the fact that I get it and think it's dumb. And then, you contradict yourself in a really blatant way. I think you should think a little longer before you post, and stop calling people names if you're going to whine like a bitch when you get called names back.

 

And I'm still waiting for an answer to this:

 

Why shouldn't we be proud of things we don't do? You still haven't told me why people shouldn't be proud of not doing things. Shouldn't I be proud of not being a rapist, or a racist, or a murderer, or a pedophile? Why shouldn't we be proud of things we don't do?

[ixolite]

And that's cool. You're a vegetarian, I don't mind that. It's when other vegetarians go on and on and on about how cruel I'm being to some damn chicken who was raised for it. I don't have anything against vegetarians who just don't eat meat, just as I don't have anything against people who don't drink caffeine-loaded drinks. But with vegetarians I meet it's evanglizing that rivals Xtian missionaries. "what about the poor animals?!?! and it's UBER HEALTHY!" Well, eating meat can be just as healthy (if you don't eat too much red meat). As for the animals, well, it sucks that they suffer, but refusing to eat meat isn't going to stop it.

 

 

Refusing to pay to have an animal abused and killed so you can eat it isn't stopping it from happening?

As long as you aren't a vegan, no. Guess what happens to all the little calves that are a byproduct of dairy production? And you better don't take any meds either, as they require animal testing.

[Amethyst]

AKR, consider this a mod warning. This site is set up to encourage and support ex-Christians. You are not encouraging and supporting anyone by your behavior in this thread.

 

Let's all please lay off the ad homs.

[Vendredie]

And that's cool. You're a vegetarian, I don't mind that. It's when other vegetarians go on and on and on about how cruel I'm being to some damn chicken who was raised for it. I don't have anything against vegetarians who just don't eat meat, just as I don't have anything against people who don't drink caffeine-loaded drinks. But with vegetarians I meet it's evanglizing that rivals Xtian missionaries. "what about the poor animals?!?! and it's UBER HEALTHY!" Well, eating meat can be just as healthy (if you don't eat too much red meat). As for the animals, well, it sucks that they suffer, but refusing to eat meat isn't going to stop it.

 

 

Refusing to pay to have an animal abused and killed so you can eat it isn't stopping it from happening?

As long as you aren't a vegan, no. Guess what happens to all the little calves that are a byproduct of dairy production? And you better don't take any meds either, as they require animal testing.

Even then, to be honest (and this probably sounds awful) that's not even going to work. There would have to be wayyyy more vegans for the demand for meat to go down. I can get behind the idea of veganism/vegetarianism, it's just that I like to eat meat. you can be a vegan... it's not going to stop meat production.

[Vendredie]

Getting this thread back on topic, what do you guys think of this new "green" fad? Abstaining from raping the planet? "I use flourescent lightbulbs and drive a hybrid! I'm better than you!"

 

I can see why you'd avoid doing certain things (drugs, sex, etc.), and I certainly understand wanting to be environmentally friendly... but jsut SHUT UP.

 

 

 

I will not shut up. As long as you're on this planet with other creatures, you're going to have to deal with the consequences of your actions and everyone else's. If someone is doing drugs and it is only affecting them, I could care less. I'm not going to shove it in their face that I have never touched a drug in my life. I have friends that do drugs and don't screw anyone else's life up because of it, but when you're pointless and selfishly wasting energy and causing pollution, I'm going to say something and I think anyone who is trying to conserve energy and decrease pollution should be damn proud of it. You know what? I do think I am better than others who don't. Call me a snob, but I call people who don't do those things selfish douche bags. I'd rather be a green snob than a selfish douche bag. Are you going to call people snobs for not abusing their children? "Why should they be proud of not beating their children? And then they go around acting like they're better than people who do! What snobs!"

 

What the fuck is that? The fact is not being "green" is bad for everyone; it is abusing the planet and it's inhabitants, so please fucking excusing us for being proud of trying to not abuse the planet.

You just totally missed my point. My point is, YES, it's good to be "green" (a term I'm getting so sick of) and it's good to not abuse animals and it's okay to not do drugs or drink if you so choose. My point was that people who abstain tend to be HUGE FUCKING JERKS. "I will not shut up!" that's the point of my thread, and you're actually proving it. It's okay, honestly, to "go green". It's not when it's just a stupid fad that solely serves the purpose of allowing people to be self-righteous douchebags.

 

I'm not calling people snobs for *abstaining* from something, whether that's smoking, drinking, sex, being environmentally unfriendly, eating meat, etc. if you actually read my OP, you'd know that I wouldn't care that people did that, but rather I get really pissed when, say, non-smokers are all "SMOKING IS WRONG!" because that's just damn stupid. I was calling people snobs for actually being snobs about it.

 

You can go as green as you like. It's when you act like dicks to us "non-green" people because "it's good for everyone". I'm not arguing that it's good for everyone, I'm arguing that you're being a douche. Thank you for proving my point 100%.

 

I think what AKR was trying to say (at least the way I read it) is that it seems it is the ones who are not doing anything at all except business as usual that are the "snobs". I do not stand on a soapbox and preach the virtues of my lifestyle, yet when I do find that I have to speak of my diet, I am quite often berated by people who think it is "stupid" or a "pussy rabbit food diet", etc. The thing that really gets me about it is that I am asked by other people, and then every single reason I give is attacked as if I am attacking them.

 

Even in this post, I read that it is fine and dandy to live the way I do, but to keep my mouth shut about it. Is that not "snobbery"? This post was not started by me or a vegetarian, yet I'm told I should not speak up about it because I will then be a snob. After my first post about my reasons for abstaining from meat, some thought it necessary to make some "jokes". Isn't that a bit of snobbery, especially since I was not being preachy or condescending? OF course, now I'm going to be accused of being too sensitive, a cry baby, not taking a joke well, etc, but again, that would be missing the point. I don't get upset about this kind of thing, but I am very curious to know why it happens and even more important, why I am considered a snob and those who belittle me are not considered so. I also find that most "counter arguments" are mostly "jokes" and insults.

 

And again, what is so wrong about being proud of bettering yourself? I am proud of the way I live, and will defend it when it comes under attack.

I didn't mean to say to shut up about your lifestyle completely. I'm sorry you took it that way, really. It's cool to be a vegetarian, and to be open about why you're doing something like that. It's just that cramming it down people's throats is when snobs are born. That's what I meant by "just shut up!"

 

There is another side of the coin I find annoying too... when you *do* abstain from something that's generally socially acceptable, people who don't abstain turn into huge dicks too. *le sigh*

[Skeptic]

Why shouldn't we be proud of things we don't do? You still haven't told me why people shouldn't be proud of not doing things. Shouldn't I be proud of not being a rapist, or a racist, or a murderer, or a pedophile? Why shouldn't we be proud of things we don't do?

 

I'm going to risk getting cussed at, but the point is that while it's good not to be those things, that doesn't automatically make you a good person. Abstaining from doing those things means that you're not a monster, so while your social status is upgraded from "monster" to "human being", it's not at "good person". It's kind of the same with abstaining from smoking, drinking, sex, etc. as a teen. Those things don't automatically make someone a good person, it just makes them someone who doesn't do those things. Someone who doesn't do those things could also be a total jerk who kicks puppies and steal lollipops from little kids. In short, it's what you do that makes you a good person, not what you don't do.

[Jedah]

I think you guys missed the point of what Ven is saying: She knows its a good thing to care for the planet...but the problem is that it's become a bandwagon and tons of people are following it not because they care about the environment, but because they are lemmings who think they can get something for themselves out of the whole ordeal if they follow suit.

 

What started out as a few people doing what was right because they felt it was right ( fighting pollution and negative ecological impacts ) has slowly but steadily grown into a pop culture phenomenon. Based on her posts, I think it's the hivemind effect that she is annoyed by and not what it is they are actually doing.

 

Take companies for instance...for years no one gave a shit abut going green and now all of the sudden now that its the in-thing corporations are lining up left and right to see who can be the greenest. Is this a bad thing ? Of course not. Its great! The problem is their reasons. Are they really doing it for the environment? Do these people really give a shit? I know many of us do, but lets not forget that the evidence of this planets decline due to environmental destruction has been around for decades. Only now that the idea of being environmentally safe has become popular appeal does business give a shit. Suddenly, the same companies that were laughing the people who were suggesting that the company consider that they adopt more eco-friendly policies out the door...are now going green when the public eye changes? The side of me that wants to have faith in humanity tells me that some of these fat cats really did turn over a new leaf; however, the realistic side of me tells me that these twits are mostly doing it for the PR. They don't give a shit about economic disaster, they just want to "go green" in order to win people over in hopes that they will buy their products. It's a new gimmick for them to exploit, that's what they really see this as. While it's nice to see people finally paying some more attention to the environment, its absolutely disgusting that they are only doing it when it's gotten bad enough to the point where it is in their best interest.

 

This problem of using the environmentally friendly fad to boost social status isn't just limited to big business. I see people bragging about how green they are around downtown San Francisco. Instead of "Holier than thou" it is "Greener than thou". It's like "going green" has become the new yardstick for dick-measuring contests. This is bad. People should do it because they actually understand why it should be done, not just because it makes them look good.