Love Your Enemy

[Guest Davka]

OK, I'm a newb on this forum, just wandering through, but I've noticed a certain level of - animosity? Frustration?

 

Aw, Hell, let's just cut to the chase and face it: some of y'all really, really hate Christians.

 

That's kind of dumb, don't you think? First of all, when you invest that much emotion into something or someone, you are giving them a degree of control over you. I thought the whole point of leaving Christianity behind was to escape control, not to encourage it. But nooooo, y'all gotta keep the rage fires burning, letting the very existance of Christians burn a hole right through your stomach lining.

 

And even if you don't like the church or its teachings (no surprise there), you gotta admit - some of the things Jesus taught (or that are attributed to him) are dean on. Like "love your enemies, do good to those who hate you, bless those who curse you." That's a very good way for humans to treat each other, and it beats the crap out of the alternative - that way lies war and destruction. Christians are pretty crappy at actually applying this teaching, but that's no excuse for not trying, regardless of what you believe.

 

So get over it already. People believe weird stuff, and try to get other people to believe it too. That's life, deal with it. People are flawed. So what? You're going to let a bunch of flawed people control your emotional well-being? Might as well just go back to being a fundy, silly rabbi!

[florduh]

Thanks for educating us. Sorry if we don't measure up, but we're working on it!

 

I hope you find the site you're looking for, because it ain't this one.

[Guest Davka]

Thanks for educating us.

If I thought you were educable, I'd give it a shot. But since you don't give a rat's, please die now. Thank you.

 

Sorry if we don't measure up, but we're working on it!

Who is this mysterious "we" you keep referencing? You got a mouse in your pocket?

 

I hope you find the site you're looking for, because it ain't this one.

It probably is - you're just not the poster I was talking to.

 

The poster I was talking to is open-minded, not a hate-filled fundamentalist like you.

 

Gotta love that smackdown, Sparky! Go troll some more, I'm sure you can get well-singed.

[Ouroboros]

OK, I'm a newb on this forum, just wandering through, but I've noticed a certain level of - animosity? Frustration?

 

Aw, Hell, let's just cut to the chase and face it: some of y'all really, really hate Christians.

That's very, very true. We get that question a lot here, and I will (again) try to explain why.

 

This website attracts a lot of (but not only) people who got hurt and need a place where they can vent their frustration. It doesn't mean that this is the way of life they should choose for the future, but it is a place where they should be able to get all that animosity, frustration, and anger out of their system.

 

Hopefully, most will eventually reach some kind of emotional equilibrium and not bother as much anymore, but some do it fast, some do it slow, and some never reach that point.

 

Lets say you had a molested child. He goes to a psychiatrist. The kid lets all his anger and frustration out, and tell the psychiatrist how much he/she hates the molester.

 

What should the answer be from the psychiatrist? 1) Shut up and stop complain, or 2) let it out and lets talk about it.

 

That's kind of dumb, don't you think? First of all, when you invest that much emotion into something or someone, you are giving them a degree of control over you. I thought the whole point of leaving Christianity behind was to escape control, not to encourage it. But nooooo, y'all gotta keep the rage fires burning, letting the very existance of Christians burn a hole right through your stomach lining.

This website is more of the transitional stage. There are many members who spent a lot of time here in the past, but they moved on, and many of the current members (but not all) are fairly new. We are at different stages in recouping from the past. We are all at different healing, and for some it will take longer.

 

The purpose of this site is not to build a bridge to Christianity and try to find a way to be friends with them again. It's not the purpose of finding the perfect religious ecumenical compromise so everyone can be happy. It's the place where the hurt people can rant.

 

And even if you don't like the church or its teachings (no surprise there), you gotta admit - some of the things Jesus taught (or that are attributed to him) are dean on. Like "love your enemies, do good to those who hate you, bless those who curse you." That's a very good way for humans to treat each other, and it beats the crap out of the alternative - that way lies war and destruction. Christians are pretty crappy at actually applying this teaching, but that's no excuse for not trying, regardless of what you believe.

Sure. And as you move and and discuss on this board, you also will learn that the golden rule existed before Jesus, so it makes Christianity more of copy-cat than inventor of "good things."

 

So get over it already. People believe weird stuff, and try to get other people to believe it too. That's life, deal with it. People are flawed. So what? You're going to let a bunch of flawed people control your emotional well-being? Might as well just go back to being a fundy, silly rabbi!

Well, "get over it already" can't be applied to a moving, changing group. The new members who just (in the last weeks perhaps) lost their faith, or got evicted from their homes for telling their people they don't believe, etc, should they automatically, somehow magically, take on the healed souls from the previous generations who got past their hurt stage?

 

Put it this way. If a homeless suddenly are taken in, and given food, clothes, and a nice bed. Can you go to the other homeless who still sleep in boxes that they should stop shivering from the cold, and stop being hungry? Why can't you? And why can't you say "get over it already" to this group? What do you think?

[Ouroboros]

Who is this mysterious "we" you keep referencing? You got a mouse in your pocket?

The "we" he is referring to is that ever-changing group of people who left Christianity and still have issues with it and needs to talk about it and on top of that stay on this website doing so.

 

You know, it wasn't the best way of presenting yourself by the first thing you do is to judge people and apply your mores on a group you haven't got to know yet.

[buffettphan]

Davka,

 

If you are truly questioning whether or not there is a god, you might want to spend some time educating yourself about the purpose of Ex-Christian.net before you post any more rants like this.

 

So get over it already. People believe weird stuff, and try to get other people to believe it too. That's life, deal with it. People are flawed. So what? You're going to let a bunch of flawed people control your emotional well-being? Might as well just go back to being a fundy, silly rabbi!

 

Ya know, I'm quite mellow and usually content to live and let live -- in one's personal life. HOWEVER, when christian reconstructionists/dominionists start shoving their so-called biblical values down everyone else's throat, that's where I draw the line. It'd be really nice to keep my head in the sand and ignore it all, but I don't want to end up living in a xtian taliban country.

 

The goal of the xtian reconstructionist/dominionist movement is to bring the U.S. and the entire world under "biblical rule." They have infiltrated all areas of our society including the military, schools, businesses, and of course, the government.

 

The Council for National Policy is THE secret forum of the religious reich. It was formed in 1981 by Tim LaHaye - Left Behind Series. Although membership is secret, many of its 600+ members are known. Most of the names didn't surprise me--Pat Robertson, Sarah Palin, James Dobson, Bob Jones, Oliver North, Jerry Falwell. However, some did -- Rev. Sun Myung Moon and Holland and Jeffrey Coors of the Coors Brewing Company, for example.

 

A few resources:

 

http://silhouettecity.com/

 

http://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php?title...National_Policy

 

http://www.publiceye.org/magazine/v08n1/chrisre1.html

 

A couple of particularly frightening quotes from publiceye:

 

"Rev. Joseph Morecraft, Marietta, Georgia.... In his book, discussed with relish the police power of the state. His belief in the persecution of nonbelievers and those who are insufficiently orthodox is crystal clear. ..."To bring down the wrath of God ... enforce Biblical law!" "The purpose of government, " he said, is "to protect the church of Jesus Christ," and, "Nobody has the right to worship on this planet any other God than Jehovah. "

 

"Epitomizing the Reconstructionist idea of Biblical "warfare" is the centrality of capital punishment under Biblical Law. Doctrinal leaders (notably Rushdoony, North, and Bahnsen) call for the death penalty for a wide range of crimes in addition to such contemporary capital crimes as rape, kidnapping, and murder. Death is also the punishment for apostasy (abandonment of the faith), heresy, blasphemy, witchcraft, astrology, adultery, "sodomy or homosexuality," incest, striking a parent, incorrigible juvenile delinquency, and, in the case of women, "unchastity before marriage." ..."

 

Gotta love those True Christians^TM.

[florduh]

Thanks for educating us.

If I thought you were educable, I'd give it a shot. But since you don't give a rat's, please die now. Thank you.

 

Sorry if we don't measure up, but we're working on it!

Who is this mysterious "we" you keep referencing? You got a mouse in your pocket?

 

I hope you find the site you're looking for, because it ain't this one.

It probably is - you're just not the poster I was talking to.

 

The poster I was talking to is open-minded, not a hate-filled fundamentalist like you.

 

Gotta love that smackdown, Sparky! Go troll some more, I'm sure you can get well-singed.

 

 

You made a nice entrance, you fucking moron. Sorry, I'm not in the mood for half-wit trolls today.

 

Usually I'm a little nicer than this, but you don't seem to be worth the effort. If you're not soon gone from the website anyway, be assured you're gone from my sight already.

[Guest Davka]

The purpose of this site is not to build a bridge to Christianity and try to find a way to be friends with them again. It's not the purpose of finding the perfect religious ecumenical compromise so everyone can be happy. It's the place where the hurt people can rant.

OK, I get that. And I get the need to rant, because I was there for a while myself. Got the t-shirt, moved on. And no, it's not easy.

 

I guess it seems to me that if you figure ranting is healthy (and it often is) and that getting healthy after being abused by Christianity is part of the point of this site (I'm guessing here), then perhaps you'd see that going beyond anger to forgiveness and acceptance is the ultimate goal.

 

Sure. And as you move and and discuss on this board, you also will learn that the golden rule existed before Jesus, so it makes Christianity more of copy-cat than inventor of "good things."

The Golden Rule exists in almost all religions, and pre-dates Christianity by a few thousand years afaik. That's the "do unto others" thing, treat people the way you want to be treated.

 

But I've never run across "love your enemies" anywhere else. I think Jesus might be unique with this teaching - I could be wrong, but I think he actually came up with this crazy idea.

 

Put it this way. If a homeless suddenly are taken in, and given food, clothes, and a nice bed. Can you go to the other homeless who still sleep in boxes that they should stop shivering from the cold, and stop being hungry? Why can't you? And why can't you say "get over it already" to this group? What do you think?

LOL - well, this is an interesting analogy. I lived on the streets for 10 years. I would never say "hey, quit being cold and hungry!" to homeless people, but I would not hesitate to say "quit whining about the consequences of your choices!" or possibly "have you ever considered that there are ways to get off the streets?"

 

If where you are is painful, move on. You can holler "it hurts!" all you like, but if you're going to do nothing to try to change, that's kind of silly. Emotional pain is something only the person experiencing it can change, and ranting is only step one in that process.

 

I guess this thread is about wondering if some of the folks here just want to rant forever?

 

I'm also wondering where the "How I learned to stop worrying and love the Bomb Church" forum is.

 

Oh, and in case you were wondering, I'm an opinionated jerk, just like everyone else. Glad to meet you, love the avatar, even if Arrogant Bastard Ale is way overpriced.

[Guest Davka]

Sorry, I'm not in the mood for half-wit trolls today.

Ah, the distinctive whine of the self-hating loser.

 

I could probably get to enjoy your twisted caricature of yourself once you calm down and gather the rest of your wits. But your flames on this thread are just pathetic. Use some imagination, bucko!

[buffettphan]

please die now.

 

WTF kind of a thing is that to say to somebody?

 

I'll say it again,

Gotta love those True Christians^TM.

 

Are you one?

 

After reading your replies to florduh, I HAD to ask.

 

Your writing style seems familiar.

[nightflight]

Sorry, I'm not in the mood for half-wit trolls today.

Ah, the distinctive whine of the self-hating loser.

 

I could probably get to enjoy your twisted caricature of yourself once you calm down and gather the rest of your wits. But your flames on this thread are just pathetic. Use some imagination, bucko!

 

Way to introduce yourself to the forum.

[♦ nivek ♦]

Davka...

 

You made an interesting splash on your entrance.

 

Let us see if you are capable of cleaning your own messes up.

 

Elect to make that on your way out, that is quite fine.

 

If not, I am WMDave's mop squad for cleaning excessive puke, piss and shit off the House floor.

 

Gonna dump this into Lion's Den Hans. This guy has already covered himself in BBQ sauce and lit his ass hairs on fire..

Will be an interesting time watching this mess be fed on..

 

kFL

[nightflight]

This guy has already covered himself in BBQ sauce and lit his ass hairs on fire..

 

No lunch for me today.

[Guest Davka]

please die now.

 

WTF kind of a thing is that to say to somebody?

It's called a "flame war."

 

Although, truth be told, it's more of a "smoke skirmish" in this case.

 

I'll say it again,

Gotta love those True Christians^TM.

 

Are you one?

Nope. Formerly Christian, agnostic now.

After reading your replies to florduh, I HAD to ask.

Why? Do True Christians^TM reply to flames with flames more often than other folks?

 

Your writing style seems familiar.

Gotta be that Journalism major in college - I learned to plagiarize style with the best of 'em. But if you're asking "are you someone else in disguise?" the answer is no - I just got tired of the PoMo Emergent board I've been hanging out on and randomly decide to Google "ex-christian."

 

Kudos to the site managers, this place was at the top of the list.

 

--------------------------

Love the way the newb gets flamed and everyone jumps his ass when he dares to say "fuck you too!" What was I supposed to say "thank you so much for being a rude bastard, I see the error of daring to ask questions now and I won't let it happen again"?

 

Ah, the wonderful ways of the web.

[buffettphan]

Doobie, is that you? Or you evil twin?

 

edited: Okay, I see where you said you're not someone else in disguise...

[Overcame Faith]

I agree with Christopher Hitchens on this one. "Love your enemy" is one dumb piece of advice. It can get you killed (i.e., Taliban, al Quaeda, etc.).

[buffettphan]

I agree with Christopher Hitchens on this one. "Love your enemy" is one dumb piece of advice. It can get you killed (i.e., Taliban, al Quaeda, etc.).

 

I agree! KNOW your enemy (and watch your back!) is much better advice.

[Guest Davka]

I agree with Christopher Hitchens on this one. "Love your enemy" is one dumb piece of advice. It can get you killed (i.e., Taliban, al Quaeda, etc.).

I lived in Jerusalem for a few years, and used this line (love your enemy) as an argument with an Orthodox Jew once - he was ranting about how Jesus had nothing new to say, all of his teachings were part of Judaism long before the first century, etc. etc. and I said "well what about Jesus telling people to love their enemies?"

 

He stopped for a second, and then replied "OK, that's new - but that's just stupid!"

 

Myself, I like "love your enemy and carry an AK-47."

[Mutate]

A lot of people on this forum have experiences with Christians who are obnoxious, rude and resort to insults when they don't have a point. I realize you are not a christian, but you only give flashbacks of such people and make us feel more annoyed about our pasts when you use phases like

 

"That's kind of dumb" , ". But nooooo, y'all gotta keep the rage fires burning" "since you don't give a rat's, please die now" "Sparky", etc.

 

"People believe weird stuff, and try to get other people to believe it too. That's life, deal with it."

 

I depends how much force they use to get other people to believe. If other people are being cajoled into professing belief against their will, we (humanity) should work to stop this. If by "deal with it" you mean sit back and let it happen, I disagree. Organisations anywhere in the world that attempt to force conversion should be stopped.

 

"You're going to let a bunch of flawed people control your emotional well-being?"

 

Of course you shouldn't, but that's easier said that done. Many people here are trying to regain control of their own emotional states.

 

"going beyond anger to forgiveness and acceptance is the ultimate goal."

 

Should we forgive and accept while fundamentalists are still making people's lives difficult? Does forgiving mean stop opposing them?

 

"some of the folks here just want to rant forever?"

 

as long as fundies are doing wrong, there will always be things that need to be ranted about.

 

And is anyone else finding the whole "I had an exciting, experienced life" thing a bit over egged? Homeless, jerusalem etc. Some people here are not wealthy enough to go on round world trips

or have a hard-bitten life story, but they have insights a heck of a lot more enlightening and valuable than yours.

[Rev R]

Love your enemy to death?

[Ouroboros]

I guess it seems to me that if you figure ranting is healthy (and it often is) and that getting healthy after being abused by Christianity is part of the point of this site (I'm guessing here), then perhaps you'd see that going beyond anger to forgiveness and acceptance is the ultimate goal.

I hope that's the goal for most people, but for some it might not be as clear to them what goal they have.

 

But I've never run across "love your enemies" anywhere else. I think Jesus might be unique with this teaching - I could be wrong, but I think he actually came up with this crazy idea.

That's true. I'm not sure I have seen it anywhere else... except during the 60's.

 

LOL - well, this is an interesting analogy. I lived on the streets for 10 years. I would never say "hey, quit being cold and hungry!" to homeless people, but I would not hesitate to say "quit whining about the consequences of your choices!" or possibly "have you ever considered that there are ways to get off the streets?"

True. However for about half of those who live on the street it's not that easy, because they are weak and have lost the will to even try. They have become accustomed to their way of living... but they're the ones less likely to complain, they just live it as is.

 

I'm also wondering where the "How I learned to stop worrying and love the Bomb Church" forum is.

I guess we don't have one of those. But feel free to search for a forum out there that does, and you can share it back here. I'm sure there always will be some that need to move on and change their approach.

 

Oh, and in case you were wondering, I'm an opinionated jerk, just like everyone else. Glad to meet you, love the avatar, even if Arrogant Bastard Ale is way overpriced.

Overpriced!? Oh, no. It's worth every penny!

[white_raven23]

I'm always amused to see those two tired old nuts "love your enemy" and "forgiveness as part of recovery".

 

These concepts are absolutely GREAT for those in the psychology profession! Keeps those poor flawed sufferers coming in to shell out $$$ trying to embody a difficult ideal that not everyone can aspire to (the assumption that some can, means EVERYONE can...is ignorant).

 

How far a person goes in their recovery from religion...that is their own journey. They may make a few stops along the way, or may need to backtrack and re-walk the same ground a few times.

 

For someone else to be figuratively tapping their foot and going "Come on! Hurrry uuuuuppp!"... not only does that display a lack of empathy, it displays a childish notion that other people must all be the same.

 

 

I rather like Captain Malcolm Reynold's take on the concept. It's honestly human, which is all anyone has a right to expect from others:

 

Mal: "Sure. It would be humiliating. Having to lie there while the better man refuses to spill your blood. Mercy is the mark of a great man. (lightly stabs Atherton with the sword) Guess I'm just a good man. (stabs him again) Well, I'm all right."

[Ouroboros]

Gonna dump this into Lion's Den Hans. This guy has already covered himself in BBQ sauce and lit his ass hairs on fire..

No problem.

 

I find it interesting that we get this kind of angle about once every 2-3 months... Is our mission statement too unclear? Do we need to add "ecumenical bridge building to conform and create peach with Christians is definitely *not* the purpose of this website!" ???

[Mutate]

I think there are things in Buddhism about showing compassion or peace to an enemy. Or at least making yourself so un-attached from the world that you cannot label someone as an enemy as there is nothing they can take from you (impossible for most I know).

[Ouroboros]

I think there are things in Buddhism about showing compassion or peace to an enemy.

That's true, I think, doesn't Buddhism have something like that too? Take the idea of peaceful resistance etc. Was that invented by Christians?