Rev R Posted June 10, 2009 Share Posted June 10, 2009 loving-kindness (though I prefer the term benevolence) toward an enemy is the final "stage" of metta practice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chefranden Posted June 10, 2009 Share Posted June 10, 2009 OK, I'm a newb on this forum, just wandering through, but I've noticed a certain level of - animosity? Frustration?... Hmmm, That was a rather hateful way to begin. I don't know about the rest of you "we", but I find it kind of refreshing when some perfect stranger comes up to me and says, "hey, you are a fat slob!" Well it's true I am a fat slob, but I forget from time to time. You know how it goes. So I kind of try not to mash the stranger's teeth farther down the throat than the esophagus. He's done me a favor by taking my ego down a peg. To the OP, You are a prick. Not don't forget to turn the other cheek. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlueGiant Posted June 10, 2009 Share Posted June 10, 2009 Dude, way to show yourself getting over the hate. /golfclap Really. You appear to have ascended so much so as to come out the other side (i.e. the ass-end). Yes, a lot of people here are angry, and are trying to get over it, make their way forward. Some stick around and help others with advice and a shoulder to cry on and maybe even some good advice. Yes, I dislike Christianity. I wouldn't give a rip about it, if it weren't for the constant meddling in public affairs in this country that the more...um...backward members seem to be compelled to engage in. At the point that they are denying the rights of others, they need to be stopped. One needs to see this and realize it and direct their righteous anger at damage control and removing their ability to harm others. Trying to gloss over that, put on rose colored glasses and a pair of blinders is idiotic, and very wrong. So, bully with the sweeping generalizations. Great to see some flames in this trainwreck. Though, bravo on the trolling. You've definitely got attention, much as a crash does. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vixentrox Posted June 10, 2009 Share Posted June 10, 2009 I don't see "Love your enemy" as a good or even realistically feasable thing to do. You can't just decide to love someone. You either do or don't. You can learn to tolerate them but love isn't an emotion that I think you can just generate at the drop of hat for people. I like "Know thine enemy" much better. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest end3 Posted June 10, 2009 Share Posted June 10, 2009 Hey Florduh, This guy reminds me of when Steve Martin found his "special purpose" in The Jerk....As Bugs Bunny would say, "What a ultra-maroon". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super Moderator florduh Posted June 10, 2009 Super Moderator Share Posted June 10, 2009 End, I always thought it was I who had a special porpoise, but then I went to Sea World. My porpoise ain't so special! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
godlessgrrl Posted June 10, 2009 Share Posted June 10, 2009 Every so often someone comes to ex-C; proceeds to dump a bunch of condescension, abuse, arrogance, or insult on his or her very first post; generally acts like a jerk; and then feigns surprise at being treated with anger and hostility in return. It's usually a Christian, but not always, as the OP has demonstrated. To the OP: if you're being responded to with hostility here, you brought it on yourself. Don't act as if you didn't expect it and don't criticize anyone for returning to you what you brought with you. Until you shape up and behave like a decent human being, you deserve nothing but the same contempt you show to us. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Davka Posted June 10, 2009 Share Posted June 10, 2009 I don't see "Love your enemy" as a good or even realistically feasable thing to do. You can't just decide to love someone. You either do or don't. You can learn to tolerate them but love isn't an emotion that I think you can just generate at the drop of hat for people. I like "Know thine enemy" much better. If you're viewing love as a purely emotional thing, then no, it's not feasible. My enemies suck, and I hate them. But if you view it as "wanting the best for another person" or "trying to put yourself in another person's place," then it's perfectly possible - even healthy. Because if you walk around carrying a truckload of hate and resentment, it will literally eat away at your body. And maybe your mind. And that leads to bombing buildings and killing abortion doctors and writing nasty flames. Oh, the humanity! I don't think we were told to love our enemies because Jesus thought it would be good for our enemies. I think he thought it would be good for us. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vixentrox Posted June 10, 2009 Share Posted June 10, 2009 I don't see "Love your enemy" as a good or even realistically feasable thing to do. You can't just decide to love someone. You either do or don't. You can learn to tolerate them but love isn't an emotion that I think you can just generate at the drop of hat for people. I like "Know thine enemy" much better. If you're viewing love as a purely emotional thing, then no, it's not feasible. My enemies suck, and I hate them. But if you view it as "wanting the best for another person" or "trying to put yourself in another person's place," then it's perfectly possible - even healthy. Because if you walk around carrying a truckload of hate and resentment, it will literally eat away at your body. And maybe your mind. And that leads to bombing buildings and killing abortion doctors and writing nasty flames. Oh, the humanity! I don't think we were told to love our enemies because Jesus thought it would be good for our enemies. I think he thought it would be good for us. We've for the most part on this site, been in the Christian's place already so we know what it is like. And I certainly don't qualify trying to understand another's position as "love". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ouroboros Posted June 10, 2009 Share Posted June 10, 2009 I don't think we were told to love our enemies because Jesus thought it would be good for our enemies. I think he thought it would be good for us. That's probably the idea, but is it really good in every situation? I think the basic concept that you don't have to necessarily hate your enemy, but do we have to love them? Most people we know are too removed and far from ourselves, to a point where we can't really feel much for them. It's like an onion. Yeah, the old boring comparison of the different layers of the onion. What is closer to us, we can love more, what is more distant, we are more indifferent about. Anyway, lets say I have an enemy who not only wants to kill me, but also other people I love dearly. I love my enemy, but just no as much (hopefully), because I might have to kill him, even though I don't hate him. But... if I love him more or equal to my family, then should I allow him to kill my dearest ones because I can't kill him? Is that really a better outcome? So I think at the core it's more about the emotional burden of hate that we shouldn't carry around. Hate can cloud our minds and even make us do wrong things, or make wrong decisions. But we do not necessarily have to love our enemy to avoid hating him. ... I think... just rambling here whatever came to my mind... --edit-- Oh, another thing too, to love someone does not mean that you do not challenge their ideas or misconceptions. Just because we would love Christians, doesn't mean that we can't rant, be angry, or even yell, accuse, curse at them. Good friends can tell their friends the truth without shame. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vixentrox Posted June 10, 2009 Share Posted June 10, 2009 Jesus loves his enemies but delights in them being tormented in hell forever right? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mwc Posted June 10, 2009 Share Posted June 10, 2009 I lived in Jerusalem for a few years, and used this line (love your enemy) as an argument with an Orthodox Jew once - he was ranting about how Jesus had nothing new to say, all of his teachings were part of Judaism long before the first century, etc. etc. and I said "well what about Jesus telling people to love their enemies?" He stopped for a second, and then replied "OK, that's new - but that's just stupid!" New? No. Not new. Tao Te Chingby Lao-tzu 63 (It is the way of the Tao) to act without (thinking of) acting; to conduct affairs without (feeling the) trouble of them; to taste without discerning any flavour; to consider what is small as great, and a few as many; and to recompense injury with kindness. And Hillel the Elder beat old "jesus" to "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you" so "jesus" simply isn't that special. mwc Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mwc Posted June 10, 2009 Share Posted June 10, 2009 I don't see "Love your enemy" as a good or even realistically feasable thing to do. You can't just decide to love someone. You either do or don't. You can learn to tolerate them but love isn't an emotion that I think you can just generate at the drop of hat for people. I like "Know thine enemy" much better. As I recall from reading the church fathers the idea of "loving your enemy" is simply to befriend your enemies. Once your make your enemies into your friends you effectively have no more enemies. It's not about forgiveness or anything of that nature but simply a security issue. Think about Judea in the first century. If you were the enemy of Rome you were likely to be overlorded and possibly destroyed (which is what happened). If you were to befriend Rome then they would loosed their grip over you and you could rule yourself (ie. with a client king...which Judea did twice after "jesus" with Aprippa I/II). So risk cruel overlords by opposing them or try befriending them to see what that gets you? This fits into the other "weak" sayings of "jesus" as well. "Go the extra mile." "Give them your cloak." "Turn the other cheek." And all those things. Of course this doesn't fit the idea of a "strong" ruler so who'd listen to this nonsense? Unless you're "meek" and wish to inherit the earth? Then you might...otherwise Rome can suck it. mwc Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Japedo Posted June 10, 2009 Share Posted June 10, 2009 OK, I'm a newb on this forum, just wandering through, but I've noticed a certain level of - animosity? Frustration? Aw, Hell, let's just cut to the chase and face it: some of y'all really, really hate Christians. That's kind of dumb, don't you think? First of all, when you invest that much emotion into something or someone, you are giving them a degree of control over you. I thought the whole point of leaving Christianity behind was to escape control, not to encourage it. But nooooo, y'all gotta keep the rage fires burning, letting the very existance of Christians burn a hole right through your stomach lining. And even if you don't like the church or its teachings (no surprise there), you gotta admit - some of the things Jesus taught (or that are attributed to him) are dean on. Like "love your enemies, do good to those who hate you, bless those who curse you." That's a very good way for humans to treat each other, and it beats the crap out of the alternative - that way lies war and destruction. Christians are pretty crappy at actually applying this teaching, but that's no excuse for not trying, regardless of what you believe. So get over it already. People believe weird stuff, and try to get other people to believe it too. That's life, deal with it. People are flawed. So what? You're going to let a bunch of flawed people control your emotional well-being? Might as well just go back to being a fundy, silly rabbi! Davka, I don't know you as a person and by this OP not sure you've giving many here a reason to want to. You're grossly lacking in the compassion and empathy area. Condescending assholes are a dime a dozen. You have the right to tell us (Meaning the collective members you have posted this diatribe to) to get over it, and We (Meaning the collective members you have posted this diatribe to) have an equal right to tell you to fuck yourself. Acting all shocked and horrified that we (meaning the collective members you have posted this diatribe to) strongly reject your hollow words of regurgitated wisdom from the buybull is rather amusing, you obviously should have spent better money on your self awareness class. Do you have any idea what people here have gone through? Do you realize many spent half their lives or more which have been wasted on a lie? Do you have any idea what a prison of fear is and that abusers get off scoot free due to their bullshit copout "Religion" defense? Do you have any clue about being stuck in an extremist environment with no way out? Do you have any idea how much anger one can hold for being tortured (both mentally and physically) for years on end? Do you know how is it with some people here who struggle with sexuality, or who they are in general were told to be someone who they weren't for years to please the Church or to please a mythical being? Do you have any idea what it's like to be asked to love your abuser? Clearly you don't!! If you had ever been in an abusive situation you would seek justice, not love. Your disgusting meaning of love is a band-aid to all that's wrong with the world is repulsive and grossly unrealistic. Love is not torture, it's not putting your head in the sand. Love is not repression or oppression. Really, your condescending post here is just as ignorant as I've ever seen. I bet you're the type to walk into an AA meeting with your flask telling everyone how easy it is to stop and daring them to take a drink to prove it. You view the world in your very narrow tunnel vision, clearly this site isn't for you. Anger is a part of healing, you can't get to acceptance without being pissed about things stolen from you. The deeper people are in the cult, the harder it is to break free. Relax a little on your soap box, If you don't like how things are done here, or how anger is open and therapy is encouraged then I personally implore you to make like a bridge and get the fuck over it yourself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chefranden Posted June 11, 2009 Share Posted June 11, 2009 In Vietnam, I got this idea to be all moral and shit. I said to my self, "Self, no more shooting. Don't be killing no more folks." Next time one of those little bastards pointed a gun at me -- I killed his ass anyway. When you are up close and personal with your enemy, it's not always feasible to agape him, or to return good for evil. It's one thing to sit at a philosophical distance and ponder the niceties. It's quite another to be staring the bastard in the eye. In actual fact I love for real quite a few Christians. There would be few people to love if you didn't. There are quite a few Christians that I hate, George Bush and James Dobson to name a couple. I'd just love to have the opportunity to waterboard the bastards in between long periods of sleep deprivation. But I don't think I hate them because they are Christians, but because of their behavior. So I'll go on about one or another Christian and their evil ways, even though I'm long over the trauma of my own faith experience. And fuck 'em. If they act like pricks, then pricks they are -- there ain't no point it saying else wise. And that would include you Mr. or Ms. Davka, even though maybe your family thinks you are a nice person. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Davka Posted June 11, 2009 Share Posted June 11, 2009 As I recall from reading the church fathers the idea of "loving your enemy" is simply to befriend your enemies. Once your make your enemies into your friends you effectively have no more enemies. I dunno - that didn't work real well for the native Americans. "Hey John Smith! Come on in - wanna sleep with my daughter? Sure, have some corn, share my turkey, it's cool, we're buds now - right?" This fits into the other "weak" sayings of "jesus" as well. "Go the extra mile." "Give them your cloak." "Turn the other cheek." And all those things. Of course this doesn't fit the idea of a "strong" ruler so who'd listen to this nonsense? Unless you're "meek" and wish to inherit the earth? Then you might...otherwise Rome can suck it. You could also see it as simple survival: don't piss off the Romans if you want to live; don't carry around resentment and hatred if you want to avoid ulcers and heart disease. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
centauri Posted June 11, 2009 Share Posted June 11, 2009 ...And even if you don't like the church or its teachings (no surprise there), you gotta admit - some of the things Jesus taught (or that are attributed to him) are dean on. Like "love your enemies, do good to those who hate you, bless those who curse you." That's a very good way for humans to treat each other, and it beats the crap out of the alternative - that way lies war and destruction. The problem is that the version of Jesus that's sold to the public only exists in sanitized children's Bibles. Why are you impressed with the sayings of a cult leader that was an unabashed hypocrite? Anyone can utter fluffy and nice sounding sayings. How do you feel about these sayings, which are supposed to be directly attributed to the cult leader called "Jesus": Unbelief in the cult leader is a crime and his Daddy will get you for it. John 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. John 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him. Those that "offend" the cult leader will be rounded up by his drones and tortured/killed: (Keep in mind that simple unbelief is deemed offensive.) Matt 13:41-42 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth. The jumbo sized ego of Jesus is on display in the following, where he describes that fate of anyone that doesn't make him the center of their universe. (The Grand Inquisitor must have smiled when he read this.) John 15:5-6 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing. If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned. This is a revelation from Jesus of what the god-man will do to people that aren't part of his cult: Rev 19:11-18 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war. His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself. And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God. And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean. And out of his(Jesus) mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God. And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS. And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God; That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great. This is called "the supper of the great God". What happend to all the love? It gets ignored once the mask is dropped. This is a totalitarian maniac. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mwc Posted June 11, 2009 Share Posted June 11, 2009 You could also see it as simple survival: don't piss off the Romans if you want to live; don't carry around resentment and hatred if you want to avoid ulcers and heart disease. Well, let's see. I was told that this strategy did not work out too well for Native Americans but now it seems that it might be a good way to go when dealing with the Romans? Meaning don't piss of the Europeans if you want to live? Didn't work. Got smallpox though. From the Mayo Clinic website: Although stress and spicy foods were once thought to be the main causes of peptic ulcers, doctors now know that the cause of most ulcers is the corkscrew-shaped bacterium Helicobacter pylori (H. pylori). Stress can simply cause problems for ulcers but not ulcers themselves. Ibid: While cardiovascular disease can refer to many different types of heart or blood vessel problems, the term is often used to mean damage caused to your heart or blood vessels by atherosclerosis (ath-ur-o-skluh-RO-sis), a buildup of fatty plaques in your arteries. This is a disease that affects your arteries. While other types of heart disease can be caused from stress what are the odds that large swathes of people are being taken down by "resentment and hatred" on the level we're talking here? Even the mean old Herod the Great, one of the supposed meanest haters of all time lived to his 70's (not bad for back then)...and even then people guess he died from something other than hearth disease (I want to say either liver or kidney disease). No matter the cause I would say his lack of forgiving didn't do him in. I already demonstrated that "jesus" wasn't the first to come up with his pithy sayings. I mentioned that it was the church fathers that had the idea for making your enemies into friends (though you seemed to think that would both work and not work) and I've shown that "forgiving" won't really help prevent the illnesses you mentioned. Anymore wives tales you want to try out on me or are you finished propping up "jesus" as somebody "in the know?" mwc Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skeptic Posted June 11, 2009 Share Posted June 11, 2009 Do you have any idea what people here have gone through? Do you realize many spent half their lives or more which have been wasted on a lie? Do you have any idea what a prison of fear is and that abusers get off scoot free due to their bullshit copout "Religion" defense? Do you have any clue about being stuck in an extremist environment with no way out? Do you have any idea how much anger one can hold for being tortured (both mentally and physically) for years on end? Do you know how is it with some people here who struggle with sexuality, or who they are in general were told to be someone who they weren't for years to please the Church or to please a mythical being? Do you have any idea what it's like to be asked to love your abuser? Clearly you don't!! If you had ever been in an abusive situation you would seek justice, not love. Your disgusting meaning of love is a band-aid to all that's wrong with the world is repulsive and grossly unrealistic. Love is not torture, it's not putting your head in the sand. Love is not repression or oppression. Really, your condescending post here is just as ignorant as I've ever seen. I bet you're the type to walk into an AA meeting with your flask telling everyone how easy it is to stop and daring them to take a drink to prove it. You view the world in your very narrow tunnel vision, clearly this site isn't for you. Anger is a part of healing, you can't get to acceptance without being pissed about things stolen from you. The deeper people are in the cult, the harder it is to break free. Relax a little on your soap box, If you don't like how things are done here, or how anger is open and therapy is encouraged then I personally implore you to make like a bridge and get the fuck over it yourself. QFT Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ouroboros Posted June 11, 2009 Share Posted June 11, 2009 Maybe God really mean: "love your enema" "Holy Ghost Enema" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
agnosticator Posted June 11, 2009 Share Posted June 11, 2009 And even if you don't like the church or its teachings (no surprise there), you gotta admit - some of the things Jesus taught (or that are attributed to him) are dean on. Like "love your enemies, do good to those who hate you, bless those who curse you." That's a very good way for humans to treat each other, and it beats the crap out of the alternative - that way lies war and destruction. Christians are pretty crappy at actually applying this teaching, but that's no excuse for not trying, regardless of what you believe. Confucious has a better way: "..repay hatred with justice and kindness with kindness." If a person is really is an enemy, he will hate you. It is impossible to really love your enemies, but it is possible to understand them and treat them according to their actions. "Loving" an enemy usually equates to masochism. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
agnosticator Posted June 11, 2009 Share Posted June 11, 2009 Maybe God really mean: "love your enema" "Holy Ghost Enema" That's why when I see the jehovah witnesses coming to my door, I ask "Friend or enema?" Gotta' avoid those holy ghost enemas! They suck the shit out of you! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Davka Posted June 11, 2009 Share Posted June 11, 2009 Do you have any idea what it's like to be asked to love your abuser? Clearly you don't!! Um - yes, I do. If you had ever been in an abusive situation you would seek justice, not love. I was. For all of my childhood. Physical, emotional, ugly abuse. "Justice" didn't work for me. I got lucky - my dad stopped drinking about 20 years ago and turned out to be a decent person. He even owned up to his shit and apologized. It made forgiveness easier. But it was a process I had started many years before, because I couldn't live with the anger and resentment. Anger is a part of healing, you can't get to acceptance without being pissed about things stolen from you. True. But wallowing in bashing sessions is not a necessary part of getting over it. If that's what you like to do here, go with it. Just rename the place "AngryAndResentfulExChristian," so those of us who don't want to play that game will know to keep our distance. Or you could get over yourself and see truth when it smacks you upside the head. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Japedo Posted June 11, 2009 Share Posted June 11, 2009 Justice doesn't work, Truth smacking and all all that bullshit Wow and you think we have problems? I'm glad to see the world revolves around Davka and what doesn't work for him, won't work for the rest of the world. I also think your post is riddled with cop out bullshit that holds ZERO reality in my world. If you want flower power and loving people that hurt you, more power to you, the rest of the world wont hold your same views. It doesn't make us angry bitter heart attacks waiting to happen. I will NEVER embrace an abuser, I will never hug them and have warm feelings toward them. I prefer justice over love, it doesn't work for you but works for me. You have your path, others have theirs. Dealing with anger is healthy, having anger toward someone or something that wronged you is also human and normal. This is a safe place to vent and to discuss issues that's happened, It's therapeutic, unless some righteous asshole tells you your anger isn't warranted and you need to get over it without knowing diddly. If you don't need nor want to contribute in a supportive or friendly way to this site, simply click the X at the top right hand of your screen, and don't ever look back. Last I looked no one here needs your permission or your condemnation for their own feelings. You have a grand delusion that you know what's best for total strangers on a support board, you really don't know jack shit about the what's and who's here. I think you're talking out of your ass and The BS meter from your post is near max out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nightflight Posted June 11, 2009 Share Posted June 11, 2009 Just rename the place "AngryAndResentfulExChristian," so those of us who don't want to play that game will know to keep our distance. Why do you care? So what if other people choose to hang on to some resentment? Live and let live. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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