Why People Go Back

[florduh]

Every time I see someone returning to their old Christian beliefs, it raises a lot of questions for me. I try to understand, but can muster little empathy.

 

I think the phenomenon has much to do with the reason for leaving in the first place. There are basically two ways people reach the point where they leave the faith.

 

One type of ex-Christian has studied the religion in depth and discovered all the flaws inherent in the Bible and church doctrines. An intellectual understanding of the fallacy of faith no longer allows one to pretend. After Christianity there may be some dabbling in other 'spiritual' disciplines, but this type usually ends up as an agnostic or atheist after searching for a reason to believe in magic.

 

The other type who leaves was never much on Bible study, and just listened to preachers and read religious "feel good" books. They are vested in their church community and never really questioned the basic assertions of Christianity. They know little or nothing of other religions. They likely grew up in the church and being Christian was just a given.

 

I believe the first group can never go back to the old superstitions because that would require deliberately ignoring historical fact and the reasoning process.

 

The second group is different. If they leave the faith it's because they feel let down or are basically mad at God or the church. Even though they have experienced that life outside goes on the same without prayer or contributing to the building fund, they miss the social group. They miss the comfort of thinking a magical being is looking out for them. They need to believe they will see Granny in Heaven some day. They have never witnessed a miracle, but must believe they do happen somewhere. They are hooked on the emotional group support.

 

The churches prey on the weak. They snag the addict, jobless, jilted, lonely and socially inept. It feels like a safe haven in times of stress and unhappiness. Everyone at times is vulnerable to some degree, even the wealthy business person or professional.

 

Perhaps if everyone devoted more thought to what they call their beliefs, there would be more rational people. Any belief that's held should have some good reason behind it, and not just serve as an emotional life raft. I can't go back to believing in Santa just because it felt comfortable at one time.

 

Any other ideas as to why and how this "backsliding" happens?

[Vigile]

You missed one way Florduh. You don't necessarily have to study the bible or church doctrine. Study of philosophy, science, and logic is another way out. After studying I couldn't find room for a god and essentially found that theistic claims were much better answered without magical thinking. No god, no religion. I never went the deistic route after dropping my xian beliefs. I had enough religion to last me many lifetimes, I didn't need to go searching for the right one after realizing that magical thinking patterns are fatally flawed in the first place.

[florduh]

Study of philosophy, science, and logic is another way out.

 

True. If you were never exposed to religion until after your education you wouldn't give the church a thought.

 

Unfortunately, religion is always taught first. Now you have to throw out the religion after being educated and taught how to think OR you have to twist what you now know to justify the religion. Too many do the latter.

[Vigile]

I was taught religion first definitely. It's when I saw that reality didn't mesh with my beliefs I lost my faith. I've never been one to fake it or force things to fit. For e.g., when I was a believer they tried to get me to speak in tongues. I could have faked it but instead just hopefully waited for something to come over me. Nothing ever did. I also always found it troublesome that my friends who were non believers or who had other faiths were condemned. It didn't mesh with my understanding of them as human beings. I never saw the justice in it and struggled with it until education washed away the sandy foundation of my belief system.

 

I absolutely abhor bible study and systematic theology. If that is a route out it's not one that would have worked for me. I did read the bible, but merely as a devotional. Xians who wanted to debate doctrine using it used to drive me up the wall. Some might still enjoy it. I'd rather spend my time talking about the real world than some old fantasy. I never liked Tolkien or sci-fi either, so it's probably my personality type.

[Shyone]

I can't go back to believing in Santa just because it felt comfortable at one time.

 

Any other ideas as to why and how this "backsliding" happens?

I don't mind people beating up on Christianity or any other religion, but leave Santa ALONE! He's real, and I have proof. I haven't gotten any presents recently, but I used to, and you can't take that away from me.

 

Ok, sorry for the rant. I think you're probably right, or at least that's the way I see it, but after leaving the Church, thinking should set in, and after reading about stuff how do you put that aside?

 

Surely people go back for emotional reasons, but did they ever really not believe?

 

Maybe limited "testing" may suggest there is no god (He doesn't answer my prayers, so either he doesn't care, or he isn't there - but God would care if he was there, so he's not there).

 

That kind of reasoning might leave open the possibilities that maybe 1) you weren't praying fervently, 2) you didn't pray right, 3) you didn't have enough faith, 4) maybe He was busy, 5) etc.

 

The approach I used was education, science, some theology, some history, and some biblical study. The world doesn't fit with religion. Reality doesn't leave room for gods and demons.

 

I couldn't believe in God anymore than I would want to perform human sacrifice to Quetzalcoatl.

[florduh]

I couldn't believe in God anymore than I would want to perform human sacrifice to Quetzalcoatl.

 

Hey! Quetzalcoatl is real!

[Shyone]

I couldn't believe in God anymore than I would want to perform human sacrifice to Quetzalcoatl.

 

Hey! Quetzalcoatl is real!

My most sincere apologies. I meant one of those other "fake" gods. Please forgive me.

[noob]

This describes me perfectly.

The other type who leaves was never much on Bible study, and just listened to preachers and read religious "feel good" books. They are vested in their church community and never really questioned the basic assertions of Christianity. They know little or nothing of other religions. They likely grew up in the church and being Christian was just a given.

 

This does not.

The second group is different. If they leave the faith it's because they feel let down or are basically mad at God or the church. Even though they have experienced that life outside goes on the same without prayer or contributing to the building fund, they miss the social group. They miss the comfort of thinking a magical being is looking out for them. They need to believe they will see Granny in Heaven some day. They have never witnessed a miracle, but must believe they do happen somewhere. They are hooked on the emotional group support.

 

Even though I stuck with it and enjoyed the social group and the emotional support, intellectually I struggled to “get” it. How was it possible that I had zeroed in on the one small group that would make it to heaven when millions of other good people would never have the opportunity to be saved? Why would god provide such convoluted instructions and then fry me for eternity if I misunderstood the directions?

 

Although I love to read, I did not enjoy reading the bible and I do not particularly like religious studies. Unlike Vigile, I never made the connection between my disinterest in reading science fiction and my disinterest in the bible. Now, it makes perfect sense to me.

 

For me, there was no disappointment in god, no heart breaking event that triggered my disillusion, no anger. I simply had a catalyst that forced me to open my eyes to reality and recognize that the reason I struggle with the concept of god is because I was trying to believe in a fantasy. Initially, I was not happy to have to step away from my comfort zone. But, it did not take long for me to realize how wonderful life can be free of the delusion.

 

I cannot imagine anything (short of a lobotomy) that would change my mind and allow me to turn back to god.

[Shyone]

For me, there was no disappointment in god, no heart breaking event that triggered my disillusion, no anger. I simply had a catalyst that forced me to open my eyes to reality and recognize that the reason I struggle with the concept of god is because I was trying to believe in a fantasy. Initially, I was not happy to have to step away from my comfort zone. But, it did not take long for me to realize how wonderful life can be free of the delusion.

 

I cannot imagine anything (short of a lobotomy) that would change my mind and allow me to turn back to god.

What was the catalyst for you (if you don't mind my asking)?

[noob]

What was the catalyst for you (if you don't mind my asking)?

 

I don’t mind at all. I have shared this a few times in various threads. Basically, my belief was so tenuous, that I protected it carefully by avoiding all conversations and reading material that would cause me discomfort. I don’t think it was always a conscious decision. For example, when I first started reading the Da Vinci Code, it made me uncomfortable and I did not finish reading it until recently. (And, post deconversion, I enjoyed it very much!) Also, several years ago, I dated a man who was an atheist. He would try to question me about my belief in god, and I would shut down the conversation and refuse to discuss it.

 

So, one day in February of 2008, in the middle of a casual e-mail exchange, my best friend, who just happens to be the originator of this thread, sent me this:

Cheer up. Watch this when you have about a half hour . . .

 

http://zeitgeistmovie.com/

 

I didn’t get a chance to watch the movie for a few days but after watching the movie my response to him was to tell him I had a bone to pick with him and then continue:

 

I have three questions.

 

1. Why would you tell someone to cheer up, and then send them this link?

2. Why would you say “when you have about a half hour”, when this video is 1 hour, 56 minutes, and 23 seconds

long?

3. What made you think I was strong enough for this?

 

What? Ignorance, apathy, and complacency are not good enough for you now? Are you planning to strip alcohol and American Idol from me and shove bamboo needles under my fingernails for an encore?

 

(How amusing. Going back and reading that, I realize that I compared losing my religion to the potential loss of mind-numbing alcohol and television. )

 

And there you have it. Even though I know the movie is not entirely true, when I watched it and I let myself understand that many of the stories in the bible stem from religious stories that precede the bible, my filter totally failed me. For the first time, I allowed my conscious mind to see the fallacy. And honestly, I hated knowing. I kept it to myself, continued to attend church, and hoped that something would erase the knowledge. Finally, after about eight months, I admitted to my friend that I had lost my belief in god. He directed me to this site, where I found a lot of support and encouragement, and here I am today, a happy heathen!!!

 

If you are interested, here is a link to my first post and my “coming out to mom” post.

 

http://www.ex-christian.net/index.php?/topic/27203-taking-the-plunge

http://www.ex-christian.net/index.php?/topic/28415-oops-where-did-that-come-from

 

Enjoy! Sorry this is so long, and I hope it makes sense. I have no time to edit, I'm going to be late for work!!!

[Shyone]

 

If you are interested, here is a link to my first post and my “coming out to mom” post.

 

http://www.ex-christian.net/index.php?/topic/27203-taking-the-plunge

http://www.ex-christian.net/index.php?/topic/28415-oops-where-did-that-come-from

 

Enjoy! Sorry this is so long, and I hope it makes sense. I have no time to edit, I'm going to be late for work!!!

Thank you for that. I thought the film was interesting, but loooonnngggg. My attention span is shorter than the movie. Very well done though.

 

I suppose it would take someone in a particular situation to really get a lot out of that. Were you able to watch the movie in its entirety?

[noob]

Very funny! Yes, that film was loooooong!!! If anyone else had sent it to me, I would not have watched it. It was not my idea of a good time. (And this is part of the reason why I was a little pissy about it!) I did, however, watch the entire thing. I suspect that was not the first time that I had seen comparisons between Christianity and other religions, between Jesus and other saviors, but if I had, I obviously did not let myself assimilate it.

 

I’m glad he sent it, I’m glad I watched it, and I am equally glad that I don’t have to watch it again!!!

[Guest Davka]

I think there's a third group: the mentally ill. No, I'm not joking.

 

There are a number of mentally ill people in Christianity, both diagnosed and undiagnosed. Imagine how difficult it would be for someone with OCD, or bipolar disorder, or mild schizophrenia to make a clean break with religion - especially if they were undiagnosed and taking no medication.

 

My own story is related to this, actually. I suffered from chronic depression from the time I was about 12, without knowing it. I tried self-medicating with hallucinogens, and when that threatened to destroy me completely I am convinced that my subconscious engineered a "Damascus Road" experience to get me off the drugs. 18 years of pleading with Jesus to change me didn't work either, but at least I had a support group to pray ineffectually with.

 

I can trace my deconversion to the point at which I began to seek professional help for my depression. Ironically, it was my pastor who suggested I get on meds, after I went to him for counseling following a particularly severe breakdown/blowup.

 

While in the grip of mental illness, I could not allow myself to let go of Christianity, even though I was moving farther and farther into apostasy as a result of the Bible study I was doing. The more I learned, the more I was aware that traditional Christianity was a crock, but I kept clinging to the hope of a nugget of transcendent Truth in there somewhere. Until I started on SSRIs, and suddenly no longer needed a crutch.

 

I started taking SSRIs in the Spring of 2007. That Summer, I had my first epiphany at a church picnic: I suddenly thought "there is no God." I struggled with this realization for a number of months, until that Winter, when my psychiatrist finally found the right medication for me. No side-effects, no depression, no more mood swings. Within a month I had left the church.

 

So, yeah, us crazies have a hard time leaving even if we're hardcore fact-seekers who study religions other than Christianity.

 

This has been a message from the National Psychopharmacological Institute.

[OpheliaGinger]

I can not go back to Christianity simply because I know too much and would have to disregard everything I know, but I think people go back because of emotional reasons--granted they didn't know much about the religion in the first place.

[RaisedPB]

Of course, believers would say that people who return are ones who were truly saved, and the holy spirit finally drew them back by laying it on their heart.

 

Us other poor slobs? Well, we must have never been saved in the first place.

 

I agree with others that with what I now know, my rational brain could never allow me to return.

[HRDWarrior]

Can I add a fifth group? Those of us who were completely brainwashed into the church, forced it down our own throats after enough brainwashing, but just never could accept the roles assigned to us, despite it all.

 

Honestly, I think my entire deconversion started when I was still a kid and forced to wear cute dresses (that I hated with intesity - I drew the line at flowers, I would NOT wear anything with flowers) to church every Sunday. As I got into my teens and the "place of a woman" started getting taught, things got even worse since I never could accept that I was less than a male just because I wasn't born with diddly-bits. Then in my 20's it got really bad, I think that's when I really started to analyze the other aspects of the religion, and the other areas that just never sat well with me, but I swallowed anyways. In addition, by about my late teens/early 20's I was bored out of my mind in church, Sunday school, Bible studies - you name it. I had experienced one good pastor who really took things to the next level for about a year, and after that it was all just the same crap over, and over, and over, and over, and over again.

 

Then you add in a good sized dose of common sense (which I've been told I have anyways - I like to think I do ) and start putting it all together, and bam, it's a done deal. Oh, and philosophy - that's probably a big factor in there two since I enjoy that.

 

I don't think I fit into the other groups too well...

 

At least from my point of view, about the only reason I could see a true deconvert (one who didn't just leave because of human actions, but for god/bible/history/etc reasons) going back would be out of sheer guilt - but I don't think they could ever believe it like they used to.

 

My hubby left christianity for awhile before I met him, but he had left because of hypocrisy he saw in the church. I was able to convince him to go back (looking back I'm finding this rather amusing in a sad way), and got in reinvolved, and he really did get back into it - but he hadn't left because of god, he'd left because of humans. Now that I've deconverted completely (started shortly after we were married), he's back on his way out the door, but for different reasons, and I think that can make a huge difference.

 

 

Maybe I'm saying the same things you guys are just a different way

[Shyone]

Can I add a fifth group? Those of us who were completely brainwashed into the church, forced it down our own throats after enough brainwashing, but just never could accept the roles assigned to us, despite it all.

<snip>

[H]e hadn't left because of god, he'd left because of humans. Now that I've deconverted completely (started shortly after we were married), he's back on his way out the door, but for different reasons, and I think that can make a huge difference.

 

 

Maybe I'm saying the same things you guys are just a different way

That is different. Raised in the culture, but never completely assimilated. Bravo!

 

You mentioned that your husband had left for human reasons. That is interesting because many are leaving for that kind of reason - pedophile priests, hypocrites, Republicans, etc.

 

There is a book by William Lobdell (which I can't find) that outlines his journey while being a religious reporter. He saw the dark side and realized that Christians are not better than others. As far as I can tell, that was his main reason for deconverting, but he also had the "epiphany" of talking to God and feeling like he was babbling because the words were going nowhere. You know, talking to yourself.

 

Reason is powerful, but it takes a major paradigm shift to reach the conclusion that God doesn't exist for someone otherwise soaked in it.

[Franko47]

The temptation to want to fall sometimes into the embrace of an all-loving God and feel peace within the self and so on is extremely powerful for some. I would even say that there are those who cannot live without such a feeling, or some kind of a belief in such a concept. For such a thing we know that a person can even willingly lay down their life, either in an act of extreme virtue, or flying a plane into an office building.

 

In a way, it's cruel to want to take that away from a person. And actually, I really don't. One misconception about atheists is that we don't "get that". Oh, we do. We're well aware of these kinds of feelings. But I've discovered there is also reassurance in reality. And the joy of complete personal autonomy. You don't have to get permission from an invisible God or system of Gods to feel good about yourself, nor do you need to synchronize your life with the planets and stars. Nor inspect the entrails of a goat. The Universe doesn't care about you, or your existence. Let alone a gaggle of mythical invisible beings obsessed with your every movement, word or thought.

 

"The Kingdom Of Heaven is within you". Well said. Because that's the only place it exists.

 

But, for some, that isn't enough.

[Ameen]

I think there's a third group: the mentally ill. No, I'm not joking.

 

There are a number of mentally ill people in Christianity, both diagnosed and undiagnosed. Imagine how difficult it would be for someone with OCD, or bipolar disorder, or mild schizophrenia to make a clean break with religion - especially if they were undiagnosed and taking no medication.

 

Absolutely! Religion was part of my OCD. I have often spoken about being Fundamentalist, but I was not raised one. I was actually raised as a mainstream Presbyterian, albeit a conservative (but not militant) one. But because of my OCD it was not extreme enough for me, and at 16 (yes 16) I became a Fundie. I had sought out religion that was more black and white/good and evil/right and wrong/reward and punishment/us and them, as that is pure OCD thinking.

 

First I had to get my OCD treated and learn to start thinking healthily. Only then did I realize that I had actually been an atheist at only twelve years old (!) but had stayed along for the ride into my mid-20s (when I became agnostic and came out of the closet sexually) because OCD exacerbated all the hellfire imagery, self-hate, end-of-the-world scenarios, and fear. I was agnostic (but still very afraid of God) until 2004, age 38, when I became an atheist.

 

I maintain that religion is societal OCD, an artificial version given to people without biological OCD--and a version that exacerbates the symptoms of those born with the biological kind.

 

Even now my OCD still acts up and gives me thoughts like "You're right that there is no God and no afterlife, but you are still going to hell and will burn in hell forever." Need I tell you that part of the problem with OCD is that it ALWAYS feels real even when you know, logically, that the thoughts are nonsense. Thank the Goddess for treatment (and SSRIs). That's why I now do volunteer work with OCD folk--although, as I have mentioned, I sometimes have to be Father Ameen, Rabbi Ameen, or Mullah Ameen since the very religious ones will not talk about OCD outside of a religious context...

[Vixentrox]

Weak minds, weak wills are I suspect the biggest reason but by no means the only reasons. You have to have serious issues to once again think the Easter Bunny or Tooth Fairy is real, no different for going back to imaginary sky daddy....yes serious mental/security issues indeed. But then I did go back for a while so I am no better than the fools that return. I was such a fool for a while. It can take time to stand on one's own feet.

[BlueGiant]

Honestly, the final nail in the coffin for me as far as Christianity went was feeling that I got a better offer. Regardless of whether or not the feeling I get when participating in a ritual is really the presence of a deity, deities, some great cosmic force, or just some form of mass-warm-fuzzy, I have to say that I like the feeling. Then again, I usually see gods as a shorthand, an abbreviation for something else, and a shortcut to thinking about it.

 

Also, yes, I agree that for a lot, religion is an emotional crutch. I have to ask, though, if that is all that bad. For those who it works for, and who don't go out using their newfound faith to forge a sense of self-righteous superiority and then use it as an emotional beatstick, I can't convince myself that it's a bad thing in that context.

[Shyone]

 

Also, yes, I agree that for a lot, religion is an emotional crutch. I have to ask, though, if that is all that bad. For those who it works for, and who don't go out using their newfound faith to forge a sense of self-righteous superiority and then use it as an emotional beatstick, I can't convince myself that it's a bad thing in that context.

Many people with belief get along just fine, and they may even try to be good, donate their time and money to worthwhile causes, and derive courage and satisfaction from their beliefs. That is not harmful.

 

Others are already borderline crazy, and presenting them with a foundation built on fantasy just removes them further from reality. The dramatic Eternal Life and Eternal Torment, Good Versus Evil, and the conviction that there is an imperative more powerful that normal laws makes them dangerous.

 

Even others may actually waste their talents being a monk, priest, or missionary (for the purpose of proselytizing). The result is a society that is somewhat less than it might have been.

 

There is also a bunch of damage to relationships from religious differences (heck, just read this site).

 

So context is important, but overall I'd say that religion produces more harm than good.

 

That might be a serious subject for debate: The good done by religion versus the damage (discounting the supernatural bullshit).

[Skankboy]

Also, yes, I agree that for a lot, religion is an emotional crutch. I have to ask, though, if that is all that bad. For those who it works for, and who don't go out using their newfound faith to forge a sense of self-righteous superiority and then use it as an emotional beatstick, I can't convince myself that it's a bad thing in that context.

 

The only really issue I can see with someone of this vain is that they (unintentionally) enable the more extreme members of the group. Ask yourself this, why are the moderate/liberal religous people doing more to stop their fundamentalist bretherin? Extremists are usually I minority, I just wonder why if Islam is "peace" and Christianity is "love" that there is isn't a more active system of comdenation for these people?

 

Fundies scream that this is a christian nation and then show polls showing the majority of the US says they're christian. In my opinion, this helps to validate their beliefs and because there isn't a huge swell of moderates/liberals going "shut the fuck up you don't speak for us", they assume everyone's on board with them.

 

Unfortunately, I don't see how anything can be done from our end. The only change can come from within the group as any suggestions from outside of the group are automatically seen as being in oppossition.

 

Anyways, it's a tough question. I realize that many religions "work" for people, but I have concerns that the middle tends to support the extremes.

[Kyle]

I'm definitely not in the second group. I do not miss that social network. The people I was around were some of the worst people I've ever known. But, I HAD to like them since we were a part of the same club. Now I look at them the same way the mainstream looks at people with tattoos or piercings. I've seen more undiagnosed mental illness, more backstabbing, more gossip in the name of prayer, and just more genuinely vile personalities in church.

 

Once I broke free, observing this crowd is like watching a zombie movie.

 

Me? go back?

[Guest Zoe G]

I think there's a third group: the mentally ill. No, I'm not joking.

 

There are a number of mentally ill people in Christianity, both diagnosed and undiagnosed. Imagine how difficult it would be for someone with OCD, or bipolar disorder, or mild schizophrenia to make a clean break with religion - especially if they were undiagnosed and taking no medication.

 

My own story is related to this, actually. I suffered from chronic depression from the time I was about 12, without knowing it. I tried self-medicating with hallucinogens, and when that threatened to destroy me completely I am convinced that my subconscious engineered a "Damascus Road" experience to get me off the drugs. 18 years of pleading with Jesus to change me didn't work either, but at least I had a support group to pray ineffectually with.

 

I can trace my deconversion to the point at which I began to seek professional help for my depression. Ironically, it was my pastor who suggested I get on meds, after I went to him for counseling following a particularly severe breakdown/blowup.

 

While in the grip of mental illness, I could not allow myself to let go of Christianity, even though I was moving farther and farther into apostasy as a result of the Bible study I was doing. The more I learned, the more I was aware that traditional Christianity was a crock, but I kept clinging to the hope of a nugget of transcendent Truth in there somewhere. Until I started on SSRIs, and suddenly no longer needed a crutch.

 

I started taking SSRIs in the Spring of 2007. That Summer, I had my first epiphany at a church picnic: I suddenly thought "there is no God." I struggled with this realization for a number of months, until that Winter, when my psychiatrist finally found the right medication for me. No side-effects, no depression, no more mood swings. Within a month I had left the church.

 

So, yeah, us crazies have a hard time leaving even if we're hardcore fact-seekers who study religions other than Christianity.

 

This has been a message from the National Psychopharmacological Institute.

 

 

OMG this is EXACTLY my issue. I have at times had mild OCD. I have tried repeatedly to explain why Christianity and OCD don't mix (or actually any dogmatic strand of any religion), but she keeps repeating "If you came back to Jesus he would give you peace." Yes, and maybe then I would grow antlers. A religious system with a lot of invisible beings, some sorta kinda benevolent and some evil, and with God "talking to you in your head" is not a healthy place for a person who has EVER had any symptoms of OCD to be. Der de der. And I've told my mother repeatedly that if her god is in fact real and Christianity for some bizarre reason turned out to be the one true truth, that if her god was actually loving, he would understand WHY I cannot participate in that religion. And if she beliefs biblegod makes exceptions for the mentally retarded (which she does) and for young children (which she does) because their mind will not mesh properly with what is required for salvation... then he would also make an exception for those with OCD or tendencies toward OCD and other mental illnesses that put them in that same class when it comes to interacting with Christianity.