I'm A Failure At This

[Autonomous]

Two things are troubling me:

 

1. I am a failure at this logical thinking lark. Yes, I am perfectly capable of doing it, I do have a science degree after all. But living by it is another matter. I have always been a very intuitive, emotion-led person. To evade going back to Christianity I have to shut that down. But I hate shutting it down, and I am not happy living like this. It was okay when I was dojng my pagan stuff but now I am an athiest, well I am a crap atheist.

 

2. I prayed that dratted prayer- the "If you are there I want to know and follow you so if you are please reveal yourself to me" one. I did it for the sake of completeness, because I know it's one of the things Christians tell people like me to do, and I wanted to be able to say "See, I did it, nothing happened."

 

Since then I have this funny feeling inside. Like God is with me and is calling me back. However it is not all sweetness and light because to go back I feel I would have to repent of thinking I know better and for rejecting his path for my life. Which would mean following his path for my life. Which would mean doing the thing I thought he was telling me to do 5 years ago but I was too freaked out to do it.

 

Well, that's not exactly what happened- we (dh and I) believed God might be asking us to do something but it was *big* and crazy so we agonised and sought his will for four years. In the end we decided to go for it. When I made the decision to do that, I laughed and giggled uncontrollably for the rest of the day. I felt so joyful. I took that as confirmation we were doing the right thing.

 

The next day, I felt nothing, nothing at all. I told my husband, I have no feeling it is the right thing to do. He said, we can't back out now. Due to that a consequence happened. That consequence was a good thing but also a hard thing that led to me being ill and depressed for 3 years, and indirectly to my loss of faith.

 

We took that as confirmation that we shouldn't continue to do the thing. So we stopped. Dh is happy with that now, he says the fruit shows that we were wrong.

 

But I still feel it singing in my heart. Any time I allow myself to consider God might be there, I feel that call again. recently I spoke to my husband about it and I had an overwhelming feeling of God's presence (what I used to think was God's presence, it is a feeling of tingling all over, a roaring sound in my ears and sometimes my eyesight blacks out and I can even be doubled over by it) just like I used to do when we talked about it.

 

I absolutely do not want to do this thing, I cannot imagine I could do it. And I don't think my dh would agree anyway, he just wants to leave it in the past now because of how hard it was. But maybe if God is there (big if!) and if he really is calling me to it (another big if!), maybe he would help me. I've always said he didn't help me but then we had already decided not to continue, so does the fact he didn't help me cope with the consequence that did come, mean that he wouldn't have helped me if we had actually faithfully followed him?

 

Dh says that wouldn't happen, that God wouldn't punish us. But I am not talking about punishment, I am talking about natural consequences, which as any parent knows, is not the same thing. I have to consider the possibility that my "loss of God" was because I walked away from his plan for me and told him that I knew better. I know that when I couldn't find God when I was about 19, I eventually remembered about repentance and prayed and then God came right back.

 

I know this all sounds like bollocks to you, it does to me to. But I have to face it and find a way to process it. I wish I had never prayed that prayer! I didn't expect anything to happen, after all I had begged God a thousand times to help me believe in him and show me he loved me. Why now? Why is he doing this now, or rather, why is my brain dreaming this up *now*?!

 

I wish I could go back to my happy pagan days but I can't.

 

Help me, help me! LOL

[Vixentrox]

People that decide to kill themselves often feel euphoric the days before they actually do it. I think it has to do something about feeling in control, that w ieght has been lifted because there is a solution. I think the brainwashing of having a magic happy friend and the coincedence of a prayer "answered" can be hard to fight and may prduce a similiar result. You have to ask yourself though, would this thing have happened anyway? Yes it would. Or maybe the prayer was a self fullfillng prohpecy. People pray for god to help on a test and then they study hard. Lo and behold they get an A on the test and give thanks to god when it was thier own hard work that produced the result.

[Loren]

I'm sorry for all your turmoil.

 

I agree with Vix, only I'd take it even farther. Our neurophysiology is incredibly psychoresponsive. And your physical responses remind me strongly of such things as panic attacks and so on. I remember running across a study some years ago where some volunteers were told they were participating in an immunological study or something like that, when actually, they were in a psychological/physiological study.

 

Each volunteer was told that a portion of the skin on their arm would be painted with a small brush dipped in a dilute solution of poison ivy toxin. One group actually had that toxin painted on their arms, while the other had their arms painted with distilled water.

 

The distilled water group got welts just like the other group did, and not only did they get welts, they got exactly the kind of welts you'd get from that toxin. One striking thing was that in that group, some of them didn't just get painted, the researchers actually wrote some word like, "Ivy," on them, and that word popped up in welts on their arms, perfectly legibly.

 

And all it ever was was water.

 

The mind/brain/body relationship is powerful and amazing. And I really don't think Jesus had much to do with that distilled water.

[Vigile]

Since then I have this funny feeling inside. Like God is with me and is calling me back. However it is not all sweetness and light because to go back I feel I would have to repent of thinking I know better and for rejecting his path for my life. Which would mean following his path for my life. Which would mean doing the thing I thought he was telling me to do 5 years ago but I was too freaked out to do it.

 

I can't say I empathize since I'm not the type who is deeply spiritual. In fact not having to be spiritual was a relief for me. Nevertheless, it doesn't mean that those like me are right. Some people seem to have an inate spiritual desire, you are probably one of them.

 

So, you have a choice to make. You are not likely to be happy if you go the Spock route with your life. However, if you choose a spiritual path that forces you to deny your own human nature and in fact criticizes you for being human then you are equally unlikely to find happiness.

 

Fortunately, there are a myriad of spiritual paths available to you that don't force your humanity inside a cramped little box and that doesn't seek to control you, overwhelm you with feelings of guilt, and deny you of your logical side.

 

Antlerman can probably help you out here as can posters like Devalight and others. I'd suggest you spend some time reading their posts and/or send them a PM. They can much more easily provide you with advice in an area that I'm just not qualified for.

[AKR]

If god is there, then why is he "speaking" to you in the same ways that the gods of other people "speak" to them. This is literally all in your head. If god actually existed, I would think he'd reveal himself in a clear and obvious manner - not use things like feelings, which you can feel without any god. Since you can have these feelings without any god, and millions of other people from different religions claim they feel god, but it's a different god than yours, then the Christian god is a retard for using that method of communication. According to the Bible, he's not a retard, so that can't be the Christian god. Stop looking to imaginary creatures for answers and start living your life. I don't know how anyone can take an honest look at Christianity and after a few years of research, have a single doubt that the Christian god is non-existent. So maybe you need to do some more research.

[Autonomous]

Thankyou, thankyou. The explanation for the giggling is especially helpful.

 

There are things that are harder to explain though, other experiences I have had. The "presence of God" thing I have never experienced anything like in any other context. And the first time it happened I was alone and had never heard of anyone having a similar experience (in fact I have still never heard a similar story though I am sure there must be some out there). I was reading a Christian book during a time I was also struggling with my faith. It had an exercise where you held out your hands facing downwards and prayed to release anything that was getting in the way, and then turned your hands upwards and prayed to receive from God. As I turned my hands over I was hit by a very powerful physical feeling. My eyesight blanked out, I heard a loud roaring in my ears and I was bend double pressed down onto the bed where I was sitting. Obviously at the time I assumed it was the power of God.

 

Another experience I had was at a Christian holiday event, I went to a seminar and went up to be prayed for afterwards. Of course I was hoping for something to happen but then again nothing noticeable was going on with anyone else, they wer ejust standing quietly praying and there was no "hyping up" going on. I was at the back and by the time I got up the only person left in the prayer team was a "little girl" LOL well I was in my 20s but she looked so young. I was disappointed LOL, well she asked my name, she was pretty tentative and unconfident as I expected, she just said "Lord, thankyou for <my name>.." and I crashed backwards onto the floor. It felt like a wave of power had swept over me from in front and knocked me over. She wasn't even standing in front of me. She was so surprised she went "Oh!" and didn't know what to say LOL. I lay on the floor for about half an hour alternately laughing and crying and completely ecstatic.

 

How do we explain these things? Okay so we say we were hyped up and so on but these weren't those kind of group situations, one of them I was alone in my room and it was unexpected. So okay, people of other religions have these experiences too so obviously they can't be trusted. Maybe we are connecting with something or maybe it is just in our minds. But even then if we evolved to generate these powerful and incredibly real-seeming experiences it must be for a reason. We think we know better and can rise above it but for some of us (well for me at least), rising above it is not a happy experience.

 

The Spock life LOL, yep I can't do it. I want to follow only truth, I do not want to waste my time on delusions. So if it is all delusions them yes I want rid of it. But then it's back to the Spock life. How can I have a genuine spirituality if I don't believe in spirituality, without deluding myself? And how do I function at all if I can't trust myself, if my inner life, my feelings, my experiences and so on, are so untrustworthy? What counts as real and what should be put aside?

 

I feel embarrassed sharing these experiences, but I know I have to deal with them in order to let Christianity go. The discontent I am feeling with my current situation is a complicating factor. There must be a way forward where I can live a happy and authentic life, I just can't bloomin well find it at the moment.

[ShallowByThyGame]

Spirituality is being true to your conscience. It does not require belief in the supernatural.

 

Maybe the The Little Book of Atheist Spirituality by Andre Comte-Sponville would help you here.

[Autonomous]

Spirituality is being true to your conscience. It does not require belief in the supernatural.

 

Maybe the The Little Book of Atheist Spirituality by Andre Comte-Sponville would help you here.

 

Thanks, I'll have a look at that.

 

I admit I have trouble conceiving of spirituality without the supernatural. I've always been a "mystical" type LOL, it's in my genes, one of my daughters is the same way and my dad was too.

[ShallowByThyGame]

Thanks, I'll have a look at that.

 

I admit I have trouble conceiving of spirituality without the supernatural. I've always been a "mystical" type LOL, it's in my genes, one of my daughters is the same way and my dad was too.

 

Personally when I try wrap my mind around the history of humanity, the history of life on Earth, and the history of the solar system and the universe, and how it all has lead up to me staring at the sky with a beer in my hand...I can't help but feel spiritual, and I'm doing nothing other than contemplating what scientists have empirically observed. Reality is more amazing than fiction.

[Autonomous]

Thanks, I'll have a look at that.

 

I admit I have trouble conceiving of spirituality without the supernatural. I've always been a "mystical" type LOL, it's in my genes, one of my daughters is the same way and my dad was too.

 

Personally when I try wrap my mind around the history of humanity, the history of life on Earth, and the history of the solar system and the universe, and how it all has lead up to me staring at the sky with a beer in my hand...I can't help but feel spiritual, and I'm doing nothing other than contemplating what scientists have empirically observed. Reality is more amazing than fiction.

 

I think maybe I need to use a different word instead of spirituality. Maybe "a sense of the supernatural" or something like that. I do have the kind of experiences you're talking about, but it doesn't feel like enough, especially when coupled with the distrust of my feelings, experiences and intuition. I don't know how to know anything any more, unless it's physical facts. But in life it is necessary to feel we know things at times, surely. Like knowing I love my children for example.

[ShallowByThyGame]

I think maybe I need to use a different word instead of spirituality. Maybe "a sense of the supernatural" or something like that. I do have the kind of experiences you're talking about, but it doesn't feel like enough, especially when coupled with the distrust of my feelings, experiences and intuition. I don't know how to know anything any more, unless it's physical facts. But in life it is necessary to feel we know things at times, surely. Like knowing I love my children for example.

 

Emotions can be powerful experiences for sure, we can't often control them well, it can be like sensory overload sometimes.

 

When we feel emotions our brains are releasing chemicals...when we're tired, angry, sad, or horny...we're in a sense different people...we responding differently to various stimuli in each case. Our bodies are trying to survive based on very old and tested remedies...sometimes the emotions will help us, which is why they exist(adrenaline helps win a fight, empathy helps a friendship/alliance be maintained). Sometimes they backfire and we end up worse off for them (fear paralyzes us when we need to run, sedatives put us asleep at the wheel).

 

Humans are proven to be empathetic towards young creatures...this is a common mammal trait that pushes us to take care of our vulnerable youngsters. This fact does not mean that your love for your children is not real, because in the end you still control your actions. You decide to get up and take care of them or not...to work extra hours for their benefit or not...and that is how you love them. Love is an action in my opinion, and just because your body rewards you with positive emotions, it does not change the fact that you spend your energy to care for them. When I am angry at my wife, I may not feel good emotions at that time, but I can still perform loving actions, like controlling my anger...not leaving the house...and waiting to calm down before I speak to her again.

 

It may be scary to evaluate your feelings based from a nuerochemical perspective, but I've always found that behaviors understood through the looking glass of truth end up for the better, because we better understand our reality. Now I know that when I have an anxiety attack that I am not in a helpful frame of mind to anyone and to try and be patient until I calm down, whereas if I went by pure emotion I would have a temper tantrum and throw something, or say something hurtful. I also know that other people will have emotions that I can't truly understand, because their brain may produce chemicals in a way or level that mine does not.

 

Anyway, food for thought I suppose.

[Deva]

Since then I have this funny feeling inside. Like God is with me and is calling me back. However it is not all sweetness and light because to go back I feel I would have to repent of thinking I know better and for rejecting his path for my life. Which would mean following his path for my life. Which would mean doing the thing I thought he was telling me to do 5 years ago but I was too freaked out to do it.

 

This paragraph jumped out at me. Do you still believe God has a "plan for your life"? As long as you do, I am sorry to say you will still be dominated by this problem you are describing.

 

I am not sure how to advise you, but just suggest you think over this notion of a "plan".

[Autonomous]

Since then I have this funny feeling inside. Like God is with me and is calling me back. However it is not all sweetness and light because to go back I feel I would have to repent of thinking I know better and for rejecting his path for my life. Which would mean following his path for my life. Which would mean doing the thing I thought he was telling me to do 5 years ago but I was too freaked out to do it.

 

This paragraph jumped out at me. Do you still believe God has a "plan for your life"? As long as you do, I am sorry to say you will still be dominated by this problem you are describing.

 

I am not sure how to advise you, but just suggest you think over this notion of a "plan".

 

No, I don't believe God has a plan for my life, I don't believe God exists at all and haven't done for at least 3 years. But I feel things that are hard to make sense of. And I don't know how to live well with that part of me shut down. And if I don't shut it down the feelings keep coming and that's horrible too.

 

I know feelings are neurochemical, I am a biochemist with a special interest in food/ mood issues and have studied such things extensively (I recommend Candace Pert's Molecules of Emotion though it's a bit old now). But just because neurotransmitters are being released in your brain, that doesn't mean what is happening isn't real. The question for me is, why is that happening now? Okay so if I am snuggled up happily with my husband, I feel love. Neurochemicals are doing their thing. But does that mean it isn't real? Of course not, I couldn't say that.

 

So if certain things relating to God are firing off certain neurotransmitters, why is that? Is it reasonable to assume that it isn't something real happening, to say it's just neurochemistry? Why did a kid saying "Lord thankyou for" cause my body to throw itself backwards into the ground and lie there in ecstasy for half an hour? Why did holding out my hands and praying cause my brain to trigger a bizarre experience? How did my brain fabricate an experience of meeting with a very clearly personal Jesus who was a being of such utter beauty that I still break out in goosepimples when I think about it? Heck I'd like to find out so I can do it again LOL!!

 

I know it's not real. So much else doesn't fit. But it is hard to set this stuff aside, especially when my heart is betraying me and telling me God is here and calling to me and wants me. It's hard to turn away from at least the chance of some transcendence in my life, to the Mr Spock cold hard reality.

 

Grrrrrrrrrr!!!

[Guest Davka]

. . . I had an overwhelming feeling of God's presence (what I used to think was God's presence, it is a feeling of tingling all over, a roaring sound in my ears and sometimes my eyesight blacks out and I can even be doubled over by it) just like I used to do when we talked about it.

 

This passage leaped out at me. Red flags going off like fireworks on Guy Fawks day. Whatever the trigger might be, what you are describing here is the sort of thing a neurologist should be looking at. There are a number of conditions that could cause these symptoms, and some of them are very serious indeed.

 

Please, please tell your family physician about these episodes. This is nothing to fool around with.

[florduh]

Again, much to my dismay, Davka is right.

 

Please consult with appropriate medical professionals.

[Autonomous]

Again, much to my dismay, Davka is right.

 

Please consult with appropriate medical professionals.

 

Well, it was 15 years ago and I've been fine ever since so I doubt I have any serious neurological problems!!

 

I've never heard of anyone being advised to see a doctor because they had a fairly ordinary experience of God whilst praying. I appreciate your concern but it seems a bit OTT.

 

Everyone in my church would need a doctor if that is the case.

[Guest Davka]

A roaring sound in your ears and eyesight blacking out is not a "fairly ordinary experience of God." I've been in and around Pentecostals who prayed in tongues, were slain in the spirit, and barked like dogs, but I've never heard of anyone experiencing what you describe. That's the kind of thing that happens when you have an aneurysm or tumor, or some sort of physical constriction of blood vessels in your brain.

 

I'm glad it hasn't happened for a long time, but it still sounds pretty intense to me.

[florduh]

a fairly ordinary experience of God whilst praying.

Ordinary for whom? It's downright delusional, if not an actual hallucination.

[Autonomous]

Fairly ordinary for a charismatic Christian in the UK, in terms of an uncommon, special experience during prayer or worship etc. How many charismatics have you heard describe in physical detail what they experienced when slain in the spirit, for example? One time I was pressured into falling down by my pastor while he prayed for me, and while I was on the floor he said "I don't know if you can hear me but....". I don't think he meant he was worried I was having a brain haemorrhage! I've never heard anyone describe a brain haemorrhage as an ecstatic experience.

 

And yes I know a fair bit about psychosis and epilepsy as well and it was neither.

 

This is getting a little tiresome. I didn't come here to listen to people implying I am stupid because I don't find it easy to set aside my feelings and experiences. Or to be told I am delusional, have hallucinations and need a doctor.

 

I am not "looking for imaginary creatures" and I am living my life. Part of that involves looking honestly at my past experiences and at least trying to make some sense of them.

 

I posted mostly just because I thought I might find a little understanding. But it seems clear to me that I am just too different a type of person, and my experience of Christianity is just too different from most people here. Always the misfit LOL.

 

I have not said I believe my feelings and experiences are proof of God. I am saying it is difficult to leave them behind, and that a life without that extra dimension, based solely on logic and knowledge of neurochemistry, just doesn't do it for me.

 

If anyone here thinks that makes me a fool, or deluded, or incapable of rationality, so be it.

 

I'm going to step away for a while. Not in a huff LOL but because I need to remind myself that being an ex-Christian is about being someone who used to be a Christian but now no longer believes, and does not require me to fit in at ex-christian.net. I need to find my own way to do this and the stance of this forum isn't helping me do that.

 

I would like to thank everyone here who has cared and posted to me in this thread and others. I appreciate your efforts and my time here has been enlightening in a number of ways.

[ShallowByThyGame]

I was just interested in understanding where you were coming from. If you ever read this I hope you don't judge the whole website on a few responses...everyone here is just trying to help...

[florduh]

Sorry, next time we can lie to you.

 

Perhaps you were just looking for validation, that there really is a god and he really is talking to you.

 

Good luck finding the answers you want. Be happy, whatever it takes.

[Autonomous]

I was just interested in understanding where you were coming from. If you ever read this I hope you don't judge the whole website on a few responses...everyone here is just trying to help...

 

No worries, and no judgement. I just don't fit in with the philosophy here. I found the site really helpful for a while but on a deeper level it doesn't work for me. That's fine, I move on, keep growing and learning, finding my way blah blah .

[Deva]

I hope you will reconsider and hang around here some more, Autonomous.

 

Only you can truly know where you are at with this process. We are, after all, strangers. I think I misread your paragraph because it sounded like you were still thinking God had a plan for your life. I am glad that is not the case.

 

Anyway, good luck with your journey.

[Antlerman]

I posted mostly just because I thought I might find a little understanding. But it seems clear to me that I am just too different a type of person, and my experience of Christianity is just too different from most people here. Always the misfit LOL.

You've had but a small sampling of the points of view here. You haven't read mine. I'm pretty sure you would probably gain a lot more perspective on this from me than what you hear as dismissive from others. I'll offer my insights that may help you if I know you're still around.

 

Otherwise, it's too bad you felt driven off because the mixed community here came off as univocal to you. It's not that way, and I find that the different points of view give me perspective as well, even if I don't share those views.

 

BTW, there is the ExChristian spirituality forum here where we closely monitor the more vocal 'poo-poo'ing' of someone with spiritual interests. I myself am an interesting blend of rational and spiritual, and my holy-grail search has been to integrate these in myself. I feel I've largely succeeded in that without violating the integrity of either.

 

I have not said I believe my feelings and experiences are proof of God. I am saying it is difficult to leave them behind, and that a life without that extra dimension, based solely on logic and knowledge of neurochemistry, just doesn't do it for me.

Me either. There is more to being human than an analytical, objective understanding of the world.

 

I need to find my own way to do this and the stance of this forum isn't helping me do that.

I'm sorry you felt driven off here. That is NOT what this site is about. This is NOT an atheist-only site. It's a diverse community of many points of view of people with the common experience of having come out of bad Christian experience. There are dedicated atheist or dedicated anti-religion sites. This is not one of those.

[Shyone]

 

I'm going to step away for a while. Not in a huff LOL but because I need to remind myself that being an ex-Christian is about being someone who used to be a Christian but now no longer believes, and does not require me to fit in at ex-christian.net. I need to find my own way to do this and the stance of this forum isn't helping me do that.

 

I would like to thank everyone here who has cared and posted to me in this thread and others. I appreciate your efforts and my time here has been enlightening in a number of ways.

I have stayed out of this thread until now because I thought I might write something really stupid, but let me put my 2 cents in and you can spend it any way you like.

 

I've learned a lot here. Being ex-christian doesn't mean being atheist. Sprituality means different things to different people. And some people have very strong opinions about things that I either don't care about or have the opposite opinion. There is no mold that anyone fits into at all.

 

I've seen your posts, and I always looked forward to them, and if you stop posting I'll miss them. Your nickname is so apropos.

 

I really think that, despite how they came across, the people who were replying were trying to be helpful. I was even going to take a guess about the sensations you describe, trying to give some natural explanation for it. I'm a physician, so I was thinking I might have a better explanation than some offered, but then, as you said, it never occured again, so there's not much point in speculation. And, having been years, it doesn't sound like it would have been serious anyway.

 

I have posted a few things that have been misread, or my meaning did not come across, and I wound up with my foot planted firmly in my mouth (as is entirely possible here), but that is one limitation of online interaction. It is superficial at best compared with direct human interaction. I seriously considered refraining from posting, and I still do, but part of me wants to reach out and help or comment. It's in my nature. But it isn't something I couldn't live without.

 

So it looks like there was a misfire, NOT that you are a misfit. There's a big difference.