I'm A Failure At This

[RabbleRabble]

I've put off posting in this thread as I just could not seem to reach an understanding of where you are coming from. I'm glad you've decided to stick around though. I feel like I'm starting to grasp your position just a bit better.

 

Your use of the word spiritual to describe your experiences was a red flag to me and I automatically wanted to begin giving you explanations for those experiences that showed them to be natural. But as you said, you already know all of that. So I think perhaps the problem comes in with my interpretation of the word spiritual to also mean supernatural. I'm pretty sure that is not what you are saying.

 

For me, when I hear the word spiritual, I think of things pertaining to the spirit or soul. When I hear soul I think of the standard christian idea of this supernatural disembodied self. So a spirit or soul seems ridiculous to me. I end up throwing out the idea of things being spiritual as well.

[Antlerman]

So, basically it really is "all in our head" but you're not crazy, either. There is a reason why you feel that way - obviously different people would have different reaction to such brain activity, but no matter the religion or reason behind it, there is a biological reason why you have those feelings.

 

Now you just have to decide if you still prefer to think that it is god intervening and causing such a reaction or not - but that is your decision, not mine. I have my views of it, but I can't decide for you if you want to attribute it to biology or a god.

And therefore, it has no value. Right? Because it has a connection to the biological?

 

Well, that's an interesting leap of reason. Or should I say faith?

 

That was never stated in anything I said - I was just pointing out that there is a reason why people may have these types of experiences without it being any type of "imbalance" or other mental problem. How you got that I was saying it had no meaning baffles me - I was simply pointing out that these experiences are, in deed, very real, and there's a reason for it. My husband likes to think that the brain reacts that way because of a connection with a supernatural being - I personally don't, but that's my interpretation of it. In fact, my hubby orginally found this information, and for him it gave a reason for those experiences....

True enough. I misread that. My apology.

 

I agree that there is a biological basis for these things, and that there is no 'supernatural' cause. But often what I hear, and what I misunderstood you as suggesting, is that since they are 'explainable', that this implies that any stock someone may put into what they take from that experience should be considered 'unreliable'. It's that what I consider a leap of faith, a jump in logic from understanding the mechanics of a thing, to superimposing a reductionist philosophy into the whole of the human equation.

 

That your husband, as you mentioned,connects this to a supernatural being, is to me simply a way of interpreting something 'transcendent' in conscious experience, with mythical symbols. In a way it works, if we understand that those are all symbolic representations. In fact, those sorts of transcendent experiences will often take on that person's cultural myth symbols in how they manifest themselves to them. The brain needs something to look at, something to interpret, and so it's my belief that it pulls from the surrounding myth structures to put a face on it. But the real significance is in the impact it has on the psyche. The level of consciousness it brings, the level of awareness, the opening of some internal sense of self that move imagination beyond the dry, mundane, reductionist, external, mechanical, material world.

 

I believe these things happen in humans for a reason. It's not a hiccup, a mere brain misfire and a misinterpretation by naive primitives, even if its using mythical language to describe it. It's the IT that is trying to be described that is important, that is significant, not the quaint, and ill-equipped forms of language we use. Of course those are ill-equipped to fit with the rational, scientific, post-enlightenment world. But the fact that they persist, and will continue to persist, is to me indicative that there is something within the human nature that drives it to seek a system of expression that goes beyond a materialist philosophy, a reductionist world view that flattens the world.

 

We are evolving. We didn't evolve in the past and here we are today complete and finished. We're still evolving. I don't see the heart that drives all this to be something we have grown beyond, rather it's something pushing through to the next stage. We indeed create God in our own image, and as such we create and influence our own evolution through interaction with this sphere of reality, this worldspace we operate within. These are internal creations expressive of internal vision, desire, a will. There is an external objective world, and we are part of that, but that does not define us. Something inside does, as well as the physical.

 

I don't dismiss spiritual experience because past myth systems expressing it don't stand up to the light of objective scrutiny. They aren't objective. They're subjective. And as such they are valid as part of the whole. We cannot rip that out of being human, reducing everything to the external 'facts' of it. Nor can we with our advances in knowledge, suppress that in favor of the subjective. There is a balance to be had. I would call it a 'faith with eyes wide open'.

[Ouroboros]

Just to clarify on the experiences, I only had the full on version of that one once (the vision blanking, ears roaring version) but would sometimes get a lesser version (same tingly, blissful feeling but milder and without the rest) whilst praying or discussing spiritual issues with my dh (it would happen when I spoke out about what I thought God wanted us to do, which is why I took it as confirmation of his will at the time).

I know what you're talking about now.

 

I never had the darkening of eyesight, or roaring sounds in my ears, etc, but I had the tingle.

 

I'm not sure what the medical explanation would be, but I've had the same experience in other settings, especially getting very involved in listening live at some classical music concert. Some pieces are just soooooo very beautiful. My suspicion is that it's some form of trance. You mind get so involved in the experience that it releases chemicals and even changes nerve responses, etc. There is a meditation form called Kundalini which can give a whole series of strange experiences. I haven't done it, and they say you should not try it by yourself, because the body itself will change.

 

You could say it's a bit of "mind over matter," but not in the sense of "supernatural powers changing matter," but rather the same things that can happen when you get scared for instance. If you get into a dangerous situation your heart rate goes up and the body starts to release adrenaline, etc. So our mind and body can react to the situation, and even expectations.

 

My suggestion is to start finding music, art, or other secular/cultural things which stirs your "soul." That way you will replace religious experience with direct and natural experience.

[Mongo]

But I still feel it singing in my heart. Any time I allow myself to consider God might be there, I feel that call again. recently I spoke to my husband about it and I had an overwhelming feeling of God's presence (what I used to think was God's presence, it is a feeling of tingling all over, a roaring sound in my ears and sometimes my eyesight blacks out and I can even be doubled over by it) just like I used to do when we talked about it.

I don't want to sound degrading of your experiences or anything, but what you are describing above is exactly how I would describe the panic attacks that I used to experience. These are not pleasant sensations for me anyway.

 

Edit: I posted this after reading the opening post. If you're still around, I apologize if this offends you but, these are the symptoms I experienced and I would also hit the ground until the ringing in my ears stopped and I could actually see again. These were brought on by fears in my case.

 

So you were notblindedbyyourplight?

 

Just askin'

 

Mongo

[Mongo]

It reminds me of my wife a little. She wants to talk about problems without me trying to fix them(which is hard since solving problems is my profession), because her talking about them is how she comes up with solutions on her own, we as an independent person she wants to do. All I can do is assist her thinking by asking poignant questions. Is that what you think you need?

 

"Troubles Talk" as Professor Deborah Tannen (Communication Matters) calls it is also a way for your wife to connect to you. My wife engages in that too.

 

When my wife gets an idea or a problem... sometimes I just listen and let her toil with it a while rather than waste my time trying to sway her opinion.

 

Mongo

[Antlerman]

I understand the struggle when your emotions are at odds with your intellect. The smarter and more educated one is, the harder it is to give in to letting the emotional side of the mind have its say. Eventually, you will find a balance.

I would argue that the smarter and more educated one becomes, the more they realize that the intellect is not the savior of mankind, but something that transcends reason.

 

But I know your point. You're not advocating suppressing emotion, and not allowing unguided impulse to dictate ones actions. I would agree with this, and that balance is a good thing as oppressed to either denial or suppression. But personally I describe 'spirit' as something beyond emotion, it's that place of being in us that transcends both reason and emotion. It's where "I" live.

[Autonomous]

 

 

It reminds me of my wife a little. She wants to talk about problems without me trying to fix them(which is hard since solving problems is my profession), because her talking about them is how she comes up with solutions on her own, we as an independent person she wants to do. All I can do is assist her thinking by asking poignant questions. Is that what you think you need?

 

That made me chuckle because it had already occurred to me that some of the posts here reminded me of my husband who tends to think that if I talk to him about something it means I want him to fix it and tell me what to do. Ya LOL you are on the right lines there!

[Autonomous]

Thankyou for your ideas, lots to think about there.

 

Having re-read my first post I can see how confusing it is. I was writing from a position of "what if" but also from a place of feeling quite a lot of emotional turmoil, confusion and quite frankly, shock, at what had happened the night before. I think I just wanted to get it out, and apologise for not being very coherant.

 

Antlerman, I like how you have managed to keep a sense of something "beyond" but without religion or labelling. Probably clumsily worded , sorry, but I find your outlook hard to grasp, yet fascinating and inspiring too.

 

The tingle... yes that does happen other times too, but nothing like the three special experiences I had as a Christian. I still haven't come across anything that is a satisfactory scientific explanation for those experiences. Nothing I have read or heard quite fits. But that doesn't mean I have to call it God either. Maybe the research just hasn't been done, the exact mechanism not worked out yet. Or maybe there is something happening beyond brain chemistry and emotion. I have to conclude that I cannot currently know the answer to that, and probably never will. It is not necessary to me to prove that it isn't God, only to acknowledge that I cannot say I know it is to any kind of degree sufficient to follow it.

 

When I described the experiences as spiritual, I meant that they fit our cultural understanding of a religious or spiritual experience and as such they do not lead me to suspect I have any kind of disorder. I do think though that there is still a place for the term "spiritual" even without the context of believing in God or any other spiritual being or force outside of the material world.

 

I feel something is missing from my life at the moment, a big part of me is being suppressed and it is an unpleasant feeling. I need to find ways to express that part of me that was expressed through spirituality and religion, and ways to find transcendence, meaning, joy and connection without needing a God or religious framework. My perception is, though I may be wrong, that I am quite unusual in being the sort of person I am and also coming to a position of atheism from an intellectual perspective. It seems like most people either take part in spirituality or are happy not to bother with it. It is a considerable challenge to find a way of life which satisfies my intellect and my... I have no idea what word to use here LOL... heart... soul.... inner self.... blah blah!!!

[Mongo]

Autonomous, have you ever considered that the fact of the sorts of questions you are asking helps others here? I have found that questions like these are very much a part of many people here, and that to have you asking them allows them to hear things that may help them. To allow yourself to be shut down by the skeptics, does a disservice to not just yourself, but those who you may help by you going though your process here.

 

Excellent point. And insights like that are why I consider you one of the pillars of enlightenment at this board.

 

Alot of posts are ways of people putting their own experiences in perspective. I do this alot too.

 

If I can add to that, many people find it helpful if another person can put into words what they seem to be unable to express. For those who this is useful, it is a spark of light but it is like throwing spaghetti on a wall; sometimes it just doesn't stick.

 

Autonomous - Your recent posts give me the sense that most of all you feel lost. That may be an oversimplification.

 

Lots of people feel lost after leaving a belief or social system and since church functions as both, many people experience both losses.

 

I felt alone in my disbelief for years and longed for a herd of people who understood my experiences. People who leave Pentacostal churches don't usually put a tatoo on their arm saying so.

 

Mongo

[Shyone]

 

I felt alone in my disbelief for years and longed for a herd of people who understood my experiences. People who leave Pentacostal churches don't usually put a tatoo on their arm saying so.

 

Mongo

I was alone for many years. I left religion before there was an internet, social networking sites, or even recognition that atheism was a respectable personal philosophy. Even with the discord, political differences, personality clashes, etc., I still find this site to be an interesting place to interact with people who share at least some of the experiences and emotions that I have kept to myself for the most part.

 

For pure unadulterated atheism, battles with theists, and unemotional logic, I found that alt.atheism was a format that helped me hone my ideas, but for a better understanding of what the "transition" does to people, this is the place.

[Antlerman]

My perception is, though I may be wrong, that I am quite unusual in being the sort of person I am and also coming to a position of atheism from an intellectual perspective. It seems like most people either take part in spirituality or are happy not to bother with it. It is a considerable challenge to find a way of life which satisfies my intellect and my... I have no idea what word to use here LOL... heart... soul.... inner self.... blah blah!!!

Actually this describes me pretty accurately. I understand this very well. I still struggle with what to call myself, but that's what this long process has been all about. It's been about acknowledging and embracing that side of myself without violating reason. And it's been about satisfying that rational side of myself without violating my spirit.

 

The reason I left the Christian system was first because it failed the spirit. Then to realize the anti-intellectual, or anti-rational/irrational ways they tried to make the system something rational, was a major factor in WHY it didn't work spiritually, it made sense to me. But then to go the route of trading one system that claimed answers to another - science and reason - likewise for me suppressed the spirit. Not that science and reason are bad things, not at all. They are powerful and useful and helpful, offering great insights and knowledge into the wondrous workings of the physical universe. But what happens subtly is that it becomes used and interpreted as the gospel for a philosophy of reductionism that itself can become a religion of sorts. It defines a worldview that I see as limiting to the human experience. It doesn't go far enough. It in its own way pushed that 'spiritual' aspect of human to the side as 'irrational' because it is too 'fuzzy' and subjective.

 

I will never forget the day a friend of mine from Bible college who likewise had decoverted made the comment, "I'm so glad I know the truth now." I chuckled and said to him, "I remember you saying that very same thing when you were a Christian in Bible College." To which he responded, "Yes, but the difference is that now I really DO have the truth!" That really struck me.

 

What I've come to see is that there is truth in both places. Not literal facts, but the impact of meaning and significance. The confusion, the conflict you describe, which I know well, is what I see as indicative of this conflict of science and religion defined during the Enlightenment. Religion operates within the assumptions of that dichotomy as much as science does. And hence its arguments for faith in that context are indeed interpreted as irrational and violating reason. Indeed. But I see it is not a question about them being factual or not, or about them being rational in the sense of being able to be understood objectively.

 

I see the question not whether a religious, or spiritual sense or 'faith' is rational or irrational, but that it is something outside that. Something 'non-rational', where questions of rational or irrational don't apply. Not that any or all 'non-rational' experiences are useful, but I would say what is would live within the individual who at the same time uses his rational mind in the face of the world surrounding him withing the context of its appropriate knowledge and understanding. In other words, acknowledging both, nurturing both, and expanding understanding of the whole person through this marriage that moves us beyond either into something that transcends the rational. It doesn't deny it, but incorporates it.

 

You see.. your questions inspire ideas being shared. Everyone wins.

[Deva]

I can see that there would be value in my staying here. I feel that the forum is somewhat dominated by a certain sector of the ex-Christian populace and people of my personality type or from my kind of background may not find it a helpful or welcoming place. The only way to change that is for some of us to stick around and keep posting despite what some others may say about our approach. However, at the moment I am experiencing a degree of emotional turmoil in dealing with the new realisations I am having, and I am not feeling very tough, and I need to look after myself first.

 

Autonomous I just want to say I am glad you have decided to stick around. This site has helped me in ways I cannot even express. Do I feel understood all the time? Certainly not. Still, the rewards outweigh the misunderstandings.

 

You are right - above all, you need to look after yourself. No one is qualified to tell you how to think or what to believe in these matters. That is my view.

[Autonomous]

My perception is, though I may be wrong, that I am quite unusual in being the sort of person I am and also coming to a position of atheism from an intellectual perspective. It seems like most people either take part in spirituality or are happy not to bother with it. It is a considerable challenge to find a way of life which satisfies my intellect and my... I have no idea what word to use here LOL... heart... soul.... inner self.... blah blah!!!

Actually this describes me pretty accurately. I understand this very well. I still struggle with what to call myself, but that's what this long process has been all about. It's been about acknowledging and embracing that side of myself without violating reason. And it's been about satisfying that rational side of myself without violating my spirit.

 

The reason I left the Christian system was first because it failed the spirit. Then to realize the anti-intellectual, or anti-rational/irrational ways they tried to make the system something rational, was a major factor in WHY it didn't work spiritually, it made sense to me. But then to go the route of trading one system that claimed answers to another - science and reason - likewise for me suppressed the spirit. Not that science and reason are bad things, not at all. They are powerful and useful and helpful, offering great insights and knowledge into the wondrous workings of the physical universe. But what happens subtly is that it becomes used and interpreted as the gospel for a philosophy of reductionism that itself can become a religion of sorts. It defines a worldview that I see as limiting to the human experience. It doesn't go far enough. It in its own way pushed that 'spiritual' aspect of human to the side as 'irrational' because it is too 'fuzzy' and subjective.

 

I will never forget the day a friend of mine from Bible college who likewise had decoverted made the comment, "I'm so glad I know the truth now." I chuckled and said to him, "I remember you saying that very same thing when you were a Christian in Bible College." To which he responded, "Yes, but the difference is that now I really DO have the truth!" That really struck me.

 

What I've come to see is that there is truth in both places. Not literal facts, but the impact of meaning and significance. The confusion, the conflict you describe, which I know well, is what I see as indicative of this conflict of science and religion defined during the Enlightenment. Religion operates within the assumptions of that dichotomy as much as science does. And hence its arguments for faith in that context are indeed interpreted as irrational and violating reason. Indeed. But I see it is not a question about them being factual or not, or about them being rational in the sense of being able to be understood objectively.

 

I see the question not whether a religious, or spiritual sense or 'faith' is rational or irrational, but that it is something outside that. Something 'non-rational', where questions of rational or irrational don't apply. Not that any or all 'non-rational' experiences are useful, but I would say what is would live within the individual who at the same time uses his rational mind in the face of the world surrounding him withing the context of its appropriate knowledge and understanding. In other words, acknowledging both, nurturing both, and expanding understanding of the whole person through this marriage that moves us beyond either into something that transcends the rational. It doesn't deny it, but incorporates it.

 

You see.. your questions inspire ideas being shared. Everyone wins.

 

I really, really like this. If we were talking face to face I'd have been nodding my head all the way through. Non-rational. Yes, I like that a lot.

[Autonomous]

It's true, I do feel alone. I didn't realise that until I got choked up reading that. To begin with I was happy to be away from the disaster that church had become for me, and then I had a fabulous time with paganism and made great friends both on an online forum and IRL. And now it is just me again.

 

And I am going through another part of the grieving process I think. My experience of Christianity was awful in so many ways, and did me so much harm. But there was a lot of beauty and love there too, underneath all the religious crap. Especially the one experience I had where I felt I met the person of Jesus while being prayed for. Even just writing this now I have goosepimples again. It would not be possible for me to express in words how beautiful and wonderful and perfect he was in those moments. I fell utterly in love and spent years afterwards trying to make an awareness of his presence a regular part of my life.

 

I have to let go. He doesn't exist, he never did. He was a dream, a mirage, just something my psyche generated because of my neediness at the time and the situation the experience took place in.

 

To face that he was never real and that I will never meet him again, well that is hard. I haven't stopped loving him, that is the harsh reality of it. How often we tell people we don't hate God because we don't believe in him. Well, I am the crazy person who still loves someone that I don't believe exists. Of course that is not altogether crazy- it resembles the experience of someone who discovers their spouse is not the person they thought they were. They still feel love for the person they thought they married, even while recognising that they were misled.

 

I don't really want him to be real. I don't want to go back to all those awful ideas like sin and the devil and all that dross. But the heart does not always listen to the mind as we all know!

 

What I need to do is to let it go and go and get on with my life, get on with finding ways to live that express and satisfy every part of who I am. But I find myself stuck, because (stubborn/ tenacious person that I am) I am having difficulty with the degree of letting go that is required at this stage. I thought I had already been through all this, but apparently not. I think being around here has made me think more about Christianity again, which is a good thing because this needs to be dealt with. I can do this, I know that because I can see how far I have come already. But still, ouch!

[NotBlinded]

But I still feel it singing in my heart. Any time I allow myself to consider God might be there, I feel that call again. recently I spoke to my husband about it and I had an overwhelming feeling of God's presence (what I used to think was God's presence, it is a feeling of tingling all over, a roaring sound in my ears and sometimes my eyesight blacks out and I can even be doubled over by it) just like I used to do when we talked about it.

I don't want to sound degrading of your experiences or anything, but what you are describing above is exactly how I would describe the panic attacks that I used to experience. These are not pleasant sensations for me anyway.

 

Edit: I posted this after reading the opening post. If you're still around, I apologize if this offends you but, these are the symptoms I experienced and I would also hit the ground until the ringing in my ears stopped and I could actually see again. These were brought on by fears in my case.

 

So you were notblindedbyyourplight?

 

Just askin'

 

Mongo

Actually I was blinded wasn't I? That was funny...

 

Sorry for the interruption Autonomous. But, a little laughter is always good right?

[NotBlinded]

I'm going to say this and I hope it comes over to you okay.

 

I read a page back that you were wondering who you are, the one on prozac or the other person. I have been there and I remember screaming in my head, who am I? Am I this mean person or this other person? I'm sure I've said this here before, but I'd have to go back a few years worth of posts.

 

Okay, now the part that helped me, but actually may not do you any good at all. I realized that I didn't have to get rid of Jesus all together. I could see him as an enlightened person that was speaking about the inner peace that people have if things get out of the way. I saw a theme deep down behind all the superficial words. I look at him as any other spiritual speaker of ancient times or modern. They all experienced something and tried to tell about it. This undertanding saved my sanity and probably the emotional health of my now 10 year old daughter.

 

Okay, that's enough about me. I just wanted to mention that so you could have other options. I don't like seeing other people lost about theirselves. I wish you wonderful thoughts!!

 

Just a little PS...please read my signature below.

[Autonomous]

That's an interesting idea and one I hadn't considered. And yes, I like your siggy.

 

Just to clarify, it's not actually me on prozac, that was just an example.

[NotBlinded]

That's an interesting idea and one I hadn't considered. And yes, I like your siggy.

 

Just to clarify, it's not actually me on prozac, that was just an example.

Oh sure, now you say that after I spouted on and on about me!

 

 

 

 

 

(Mine wasn't prozac either, but 3 or 4 others!)

[Autonomous]

That's an interesting idea and one I hadn't considered. And yes, I like your siggy.

 

Just to clarify, it's not actually me on prozac, that was just an example.

Oh sure, now you say that after I spouted on and on about me!

 

 

 

 

 

(Mine wasn't prozac either, but 3 or 4 others!)

 

LOL, sorry! I could say me on food/ mood eating plan or off food/ mood eating plan instead.

[Antlerman]

I have to let go. He doesn't exist, he never did. He was a dream, a mirage, just something my psyche generated because of my neediness at the time and the situation the experience took place in.

Now this comes to some important things to bring up, that comes back to what I said before.

 

Do you not see the significance of what you said? That that tremendous sense of overwhelming peace and fulfillment you felt was "generated" by you? From something inside you? Don't you see the significance of this? It's about the potential inside yourself that came out as a result of being it at place that acted as a catalyst for it!

 

Think about it. What you experienced was real, even if you used mythic symbols to put a wrapper around it for you. It's not about "Jesus", or "Krishna" or "God", but about the Potential you possessed, the potential that is in you and came out in a time of need to "save" you. You found a way to manifest it for yourself.

 

This isn't super-naturalism, it's not some 'out there' plane of spirit beings reaching down to us mere mortals. It's about the living and vibrant potential that drives Life. You manifested it, you opened yourself to something significant for you. It wasn't external from a sky god, it was what lives in you, then and now. And that is where the pursuit of "finding God" is. Inside. You. Now that to me is phenomenal. It is in me. It is my potential. It is the potential of the Universe.

 

So what if the mythic symbolism isn't literal? To me, seeing beyond the symbols to the Source is what any of those systems of spirituality were about in their inception, before they became a social religion. I can embrace that existential experience I stuck the name God onto when I was in that system looking for a way to talk about it. What happened is I outgrew the system. Holding onto those things as real, tangible, verifiable facts of history changed their nature from vehicles for spiritual focus, to an apology for faith, a justification for a social system. The symbols became so tied to the religion as an institution, that they were unable to point to anything internal, anything spiritual anymore. And in fact they throttled it, putting "God" into a box, and limits on the limitless potential that lives inside.

 

To face that he was never real and that I will never meet him again, well that is hard. I haven't stopped loving him, that is the harsh reality of it.

You haven't stopped embracing the depth of meaning and significance of the experience. Maybe this is you coming to realize that experience is not dependent on the symbol, that the experience transcends the symbol. Your realization that the structure of your church is not rooted in what a modern expectation of history and fact should be, but is instead mythical runs headlong into the modern notions of 'truth'. You take the baby and through it out with the bath water.

 

The difficult thing to do, and what I hear you say as well, is to be able to come near those things again without feeling mentally sucked back into the whole system. I have no easy answer for that one. Time. Time and a great deal of conscientious effort. I had to reclaim the right from the system to embrace what was mine before I turned over control to them. That's a process. It's a process of coming to terms with the value of it as part of your personality, as part of your spiritual angst that compels you to look into the mystery. The salvation that you find, is from religion to self-realization. It's in you that you find "God".

 

The key is to embrace the nature of that and free it from the religion that is little more than stodgy guardians of the sacred words for the general consumption of the unwashed masses. Spirituality is a personal journey of one individual Becoming. It is not owned by the priests of a religion who argue over orthodoxies for control of the masses.

[Autonomous]

I have to let go. He doesn't exist, he never did. He was a dream, a mirage, just something my psyche generated because of my neediness at the time and the situation the experience took place in.

Now this comes to some important things to bring up, that comes back to what I said before.

 

Do you not see the significance of what you said? That that tremendous sense of overwhelming peace and fulfillment you felt was "generated" by you? From something inside you? Don't you see the significance of this? It's about the potential inside yourself that came out as a result of being it at place that acted as a catalyst for it!

 

Think about it. What you experienced was real, even if you used mythic symbols to put a wrapper around it for you. It's not about "Jesus", or "Krishna" or "God", but about the Potential you possessed, the potential that is in you and came out in a time of need to "save" you. You found a way to manifest it for yourself.

 

This isn't super-naturalism, it's not some 'out there' plane of spirit beings reaching down to us mere mortals. It's about the living and vibrant potential that drives Life. You manifested it, you opened yourself to something significant for you. It wasn't external from a sky god, it was what lives in you, then and now. And that is where the pursuit of "finding God" is. Inside. You. Now that to me is phenomenal. It is in me. It is my potential. It is the potential of the Universe.

 

So what if the mythic symbolism isn't literal? To me, seeing beyond the symbols to the Source is what any of those systems of spirituality were about in their inception, before they became a social religion. I can embrace that existential experience I stuck the name God onto when I was in that system looking for a way to talk about it. What happened is I outgrew the system. Holding onto those things as real, tangible, verifiable facts of history changed their nature from vehicles for spiritual focus, to an apology for faith, a justification for a social system. The symbols became so tied to the religion as an institution, that they were unable to point to anything internal, anything spiritual anymore. And in fact they throttled it, putting "God" into a box, and limits on the limitless potential that lives inside.

 

To face that he was never real and that I will never meet him again, well that is hard. I haven't stopped loving him, that is the harsh reality of it.

You haven't stopped embracing the depth of meaning and significance of the experience. Maybe this is you coming to realize that experience is not dependent on the symbol, that the experience transcends the symbol. Your realization that the structure of your church is not rooted in what a modern expectation of history and fact should be, but is instead mythical runs headlong into the modern notions of 'truth'. You take the baby and through it out with the bath water.

 

The difficult thing to do, and what I hear you say as well, is to be able to come near those things again without feeling mentally sucked back into the whole system. I have no easy answer for that one. Time. Time and a great deal of conscientious effort. I had to reclaim the right from the system to embrace what was mine before I turned over control to them. That's a process. It's a process of coming to terms with the value of it as part of your personality, as part of your spiritual angst that compels you to look into the mystery. The salvation that you find, is from religion to self-realization. It's in you that you find "God".

 

The key is to embrace the nature of that and free it from the religion that is little more than stodgy guardians of the sacred words for the general consumption of the unwashed masses. Spirituality is a personal journey of one individual Becoming. It is not owned by the priests of a religion who argue over orthodoxies for control of the masses.

 

Wow yes, I see what you are saying, and it is an incredible concept. I am going to see where I can go with that one. Although it doesn't help that much with that particular experience because it was very much one of Jesus as a person and I don't think it means anything about anything I have inside me, except that I have the capacity to generate a false experience of meeting an incredibly wonderful spiritual being if I am desperate enough!

 

I get stuck with the idea that my experiences lie to me and can't be trusted but I can see that instead I could look at the experiences as genuine but the interpretation or label I put on them is the problem (particulary in seeking to name an outside source). Except for the Jesus experience, that seems like a workable idea.

[Guest Davka]

Just to clarify on the experiences, I only had the full on version of that one once (the vision blanking, ears roaring version) but would sometimes get a lesser version (same tingly, blissful feeling but milder and without the rest) whilst praying or discussing spiritual issues with my dh (it would happen when I spoke out about what I thought God wanted us to do, which is why I took it as confirmation of his will at the time). It hasn't happened the whole time I have been away from Christianity, until the night this week that I discussed my confusion about what I had previously experienced and thought about what God was saying. When I talked about considering the possibility that God did exist and did have this plan for me, the feelings came back. That was confusing. I do not think it is a neurological condition or a panic attack. I think it comes into the category of a spiritual experience (not saying I think something real is behind it).

 

Thanks for taking the time to clarify. I was not trying to be condescending or dismissive of your experiences; I was honestly concerned that you were having seizure-like symptoms on a regular basis. I am glad to learn that this is not the case.

 

I think I know what you mean when you talk about "tingly feelings." I've had those too, especially when I thought I was understanding God's will about something. The trouble is, when I acted on the tingles, things often did not work out - and sometimes went seriously wrong. Eventually I decided that I was not hearing God after all.

 

I also get those feelings sometimes when listening to certain music and imagining playing along (I'm a musician). It used to happen a lot with worship songs, which led me to believe that it was because God wanted me to play those songs in church worship. Since leaving Christianity, I've had the same feeling with secular songs as well. I have no idea what's going on neurologically during those "tingles," but the euphoria is pretty cool.

 

I'm sorry that your experience here has been so frustrating for you. From where I sit, it looks like a massive failure to communicate on both sides. I don't think anyone was trying to talk down to you; I suspect that we simply did not understand what you were saying. If what you are seeking is some sort of post-Christian spirituality, the best place to ask those kinds of questions is in the Ex-Christian Theism or Spirituality forum.

 

If I've misunderstood you yet again, does that mean I win a prize?

[Autonomous]

 

I think I know what you mean when you talk about "tingly feelings." I've had those too, especially when I thought I was understanding God's will about something. The trouble is, when I acted on the tingles, things often did not work out - and sometimes went seriously wrong. Eventually I decided that I was not hearing God after all.

 

I also get those feelings sometimes when listening to certain music and imagining playing along (I'm a musician). It used to happen a lot with worship songs, which led me to believe that it was because God wanted me to play those songs in church worship. Since leaving Christianity, I've had the same feeling with secular songs as well. I have no idea what's going on neurologically during those "tingles," but the euphoria is pretty cool.

 

 

 

Yes, yes, that's just it, that's just what it was like. And the times it was strongest and most clear both went wrong- the lady we were praying for died, and when we tried to do the thing we thought God was telling us to do it ended up with my developing an illness, and consequent depression, my husband being diagnosed with stress and us nearly splitting up!!

 

I don't really get that feeling about other things, I get an endorphin rush but it's not quite the same. But it's good evidence for me that you do.

 

Not quite so simple to explain the "meeting Jesus" experience or the "totally unexpected crashing to the floor" experience, but then to be honest I feel quite an idiot for being so desperate that my mind would create those experiences for me and then I believed them. Maybe that is part of my reluctance to accept they were false, in addition just to how wonderful they were.

 

This crappy grieving is a pain, haven't I done enough already?! I had a nightmare last night that I was at some kind of event with Christians and other people and all the ones who'd decided to become Christians were sitting together looking jolly, there were loads of them packed in together. The Christians were all sitting along one side of the room. Then one person I knew came in but the man at the front asked who knew her and all the Christians put their hands up and one kissed her cheek and she sat with them. I had to sit at the back on the other side of the room alone.

 

But you'll sit with me, right?

[Autonomous]

I just realised something else (something that ought to be obvious to me but never mind!).

 

The thing we thought God wanted us to do, that I talked about in the OP, related to having more children. Well, a week ago, my youngest child started school. I now have no young children at home, after 13 years as a SAHM. Big, big emotions there. And I have a very strong natural nurturing urge, it is quite an ajustment for me to know I won't have a baby or toddler to care for again. Not to mention just a huge life change.

 

So what happens this week- feelings about God maybe calling me and wanting me to come back and to do this thing. LOL it would be funny if it wasn't so tragic!!

 

Add that to my recent atheist realisations and difficulties and the loss of the fun I was having with paganism, give it a stir and hey presto....

 

It's not God calling me back, it's myself, because my psyche knows something it thinks will help.

[Loren]

I just realised something else (something that ought to be obvious to me but never mind!).

 

The thing we thought God wanted us to do, that I talked about in the OP, related to having more children. Well, a week ago, my youngest child started school. I now have no young children at home, after 13 years as a SAHM. Big, big emotions there. And I have a very strong natural nurturing urge, it is quite an ajustment for me to know I won't have a baby or toddler to care for again. Not to mention just a huge life change.

 

So what happens this week- feelings about God maybe calling me and wanting me to come back and to do this thing. LOL it would be funny if it wasn't so tragic!!

 

Add that to my recent atheist realisations and difficulties and the loss of the fun I was having with paganism, give it a stir and hey presto....

 

It's not God calling me back, it's myself, because my psyche knows something it thinks will help.

I greatly admire people who have that nurturing aspect to their personalities. Have you tried volunteering at something in your community such as a soup line or food box center? I can't think of too many activities that are as directly nurturing as feeding the hungry, and every town has too many poor people. Another venue that might feed that nurturing side might be an animal shelter. Being involved in such things can be extremely rewarding and meaningful, even if your duties are quite simple. And you'd know you were being genuinely useful.