I'm A Failure At This

[PaulQ]

I have to consider the possibility that my "loss of God" was because I walked away from his plan for me and told him that I knew better.

 

If there is an all-knowing god with a plan, you need to ask yourself: 1) How is it possible for you to walk away from this plan, and 2) What does this say about the power this god holds over you and the people of earth? If anyone can simply walk away from this plan of his, then it's quite possible that this plan won't work out, right? That would mean that this god isn't all-seeing and all-knowing. You would have to conclude that this god couldn't plan any better than you could, which means that you have the power to plan your own life.

[Deva]

I have to consider the possibility that my "loss of God" was because I walked away from his plan for me and told him that I knew better.

 

If there is an all-knowing god with a plan, you need to ask yourself: 1) How is it possible for you to walk away from this plan, and 2) What does this say about the power this god holds over you and the people of earth? If anyone can simply walk away from this plan of his, then it's quite possible that this plan won't work out, right? That would mean that this god isn't all-seeing and all-knowing. You would have to conclude that this god couldn't plan any better than you could, which means that you have the power to plan your own life.

 

Paul, in answer to my question about whether or not she believed in "God's plan", Anonymous said in Post 14:

 

No, I don't believe God has a plan for my life, I don't believe God exists at all and haven't done for at least 3 years.

 

All good questions and good points Paul, and I would have asked something similar until I read Anonymous's answer.

[GraphicsGuy]

I have always been a very intuitive, emotion-led person. To evade going back to Christianity I have to shut that down.

 

Your first line caught my complete attention, thus I haven't read the rest of your post yet.

 

I don't think this is true. I think you could probably think of a lot of emotional reasons to not go back to Xianity. I'm not you and you're not me, but I will tell you that my reasons for leaving and staying away from the cult are almost entirely emotionally-based. The logical reasons were simply nails in the coffin.

 

I'll read the rest of your post now...

[HRDWarrior]

I don't think you're delusional - however, there is pretty concrete evidence that these intense "spiritual" moments really are a matter of brain chemistry. Rather than try to relate this, I will give a quote from the book "Evolve Your Brain" pg 365 by Joe Dispenza:

 

"For a long time, the spiritual work and, more specifically, the transcendent experiences that many people have ain a state of spiritual ecstasy were considered to fall outside the realm of the biological, the natural, or anything "real." A new field of study, called neurotheology, has experienced a boom over the last few years. Researchers, most prominent amongh them Andrew Newberg, M.D., at the University of Pennsylvania, have sought ot quantify spiritual experiences and to learn what happens in the brains of Tibetan Buddhists while meditating and Franciscan nuns while praying, for example. Employing sophisticated techniques, including SPECT scans that use a radioactive tracer, in the brains of test subjects who are having a so-called mystical experience, Newberg and others have identified the region of the brain that are active during these experiences. Working with subjects ddep in a meditative state or prayer, they've determined that the bundle of neurons in the superior parietal lobe - the orientation association area - go quiet during these periods of intense focus and concentration. As we may expect, the frontal lobe lights up with activity.

 

The orientation association center is involved in locating us in time and space - establishing how our body is physically oriented in space, and delineating for us where our body begins and ends. With activity quieted in this area, it's no wonder people experience a sense of "oneness" with the universe. The brain's symphony leader, while being involved in active focused concentration, quiets the center that defines the body's boundaries, akin to silencing the horn section of the orchestra. The frontal lobe has also suspended our sense of being located in a particular time and space. So there we are, lacking a boundry between ourselves and other and the environment, with no sense of time or space, no sense of self, and as Dr. Newberg puts it, we begin to 'perceive the self as endless and intimately interwoven with everyone and everything.'

 

Having worked with people capable of great concentration and focus, skilled in observation, and possessing a highly developed sense of self-awareness, these researchers have proven that there is a direct correlation between spiritual contemplation and altered brain activity. While in a state of intense contemplation, experiences of the mind are as real to these meditators as the view outside our window. ....

 

....whenever we experience anything and store it in the brain as memory, through association, we can reexperience those feelings and associations when the right enviromental trigger occurs."

 

So, basically it really is "all in our head" but you're not crazy, either. There is a reason why you feel that way - obviously different people would have different reaction to such brain activity, but no matter the religion or reason behind it, there is a biological reason why you have those feelings.

 

Now you just have to decide if you still prefer to think that it is god intervening and causing such a reaction or not - but that is your decision, not mine. I have my views of it, but I can't decide for you if you want to attribute it to biology or a god.

[PaulQ]

I have to consider the possibility that my "loss of God" was because I walked away from his plan for me and told him that I knew better.

 

If there is an all-knowing god with a plan, you need to ask yourself: 1) How is it possible for you to walk away from this plan, and 2) What does this say about the power this god holds over you and the people of earth? If anyone can simply walk away from this plan of his, then it's quite possible that this plan won't work out, right? That would mean that this god isn't all-seeing and all-knowing. You would have to conclude that this god couldn't plan any better than you could, which means that you have the power to plan your own life.

 

Paul, in answer to my question about whether or not she believed in "God's plan", Anonymous said in Post 14:

 

No, I don't believe God has a plan for my life, I don't believe God exists at all and haven't done for at least 3 years.

 

All good questions and good points Paul, and I would have asked something similar until I read Anonymous's answer.

 

I would tend to agree, except for the fact that the post in which I replied to wasn't posted prior to three years ago, but rather today at 05:23 AM.

 

Also, at risk of reading like a nit-picker, it's Autonomous, not Anonymous.

[Antlerman]

So, basically it really is "all in our head" but you're not crazy, either. There is a reason why you feel that way - obviously different people would have different reaction to such brain activity, but no matter the religion or reason behind it, there is a biological reason why you have those feelings.

 

Now you just have to decide if you still prefer to think that it is god intervening and causing such a reaction or not - but that is your decision, not mine. I have my views of it, but I can't decide for you if you want to attribute it to biology or a god.

And therefore, it has no value. Right? Because it has a connection to the biological?

 

Well, that's an interesting leap of reason. Or should I say faith?

[Mongo]

a fairly ordinary experience of God whilst praying.

Ordinary for whom? It's downright delusional, if not an actual hallucination.

 

I'm not sure I agree. Auto's circles are similar to mine.

 

Do you or Davka have a history with charismatic fundamentalists?

 

Keep in mind... these days some Pentacostal churches don't have as much fire as the circles I frequented.

 

Think... "The Toronto Blessing" style. Strange shit happened there and while I wasn't there specifically, that type of thing happened around home as The Toronto Blessing spread.

 

Mongo

[Mongo]

I have always been a very intuitive, emotion-led person. To evade going back to Christianity I have to shut that down.

I think you are taking an all or nothing approach here. While that might appear logical, I'm not sure it is sensible.

 

I think we are both emotional and rational. I can't divorce my emotions and neither can I ignore my logic.

 

My goal is to synchronize them to some semblance of harmony. (A semblance - not a perfect immitation of each other)

 

Each person should have a different balance. You need to find yours.

 

I sympathize with your plight and hope you can find some answers.

 

I really hope you will use that science degree of yours and start reading some useful books. (I listen to them)

 

I'm finally getting some answers I've wondered about logic and my illogical side.

 

I suggest you start with the book, Emotional Intellegence because it will give you an understanding of how rational and emotional parts of the brain interact and cooperate and compete.

 

It is a great book. I have more.

 

I know there are answers on the visions and sensations but my mind escapes me at the moment.

 

Keep looking!

 

As to the pull back to xtianity... your emotionals are not merely chemicals. A portion of the brain does some actual thinking. It is helpful to me to percieve emotions like shorthand thinking. Prewritten scripts on how to feel and behave. You have taught yourself to go into emotional states at certain stimuli and coaxing. You need to debrief and cleanse yourself of these scripts if they are no longer valid or no longer useful.

 

Gotta go. Keep looking!!!!!

 

Mongo

[Mongo]

...just offering it as interesting food for thought on the topic of unusual mental/emotional states.)

 

I think alot of people have trouble relating to this kind of experience and it leads them to assume something must be wrong neurologically.

 

I can't comment on neurological deficiencies but I'm am very confident that people can train themselves to respond in ways that are fairly unusual.

 

Why do I know this? I know this because I ran in those circles. I went to the three following atmospheres:

 

Pentacostal (holy rollers) - I remember trying to get baptized by the holy spook and contriving to speak in tongues at the coaxing of others. According to the pastor at the time, the tongue may become thick like molasses (bla bla bla)

 

Catholic Charismatic - Interesting folk. They seemed to have far more holy spirit than the Pentacostals. They were not "Holy rollers" and sat in their chairs, raised their hands and spoke in tongues. There was never a prpohecy and interpretation as that would violate the priest's authority. They were very gentle and demure yet spoke in tongues.

 

Home Church / Bible Study (holy rollers and then some) - The people who went to and organized these studies were trying to put some distance between them and church authority. THIS is where the bizarre stuff happened. Before a bible study, my relatives would go from room to room casting out demons. I remember the defacto leader (a true nutjob) announcing that he suddenly discovered a "new" demon named Absolum (bla bla bla). I was puzzled by his reasoning and could not see the link. This nutjob used to act like god was using him to give messages to others. (Ass Hole!). People who followed this shit judged the quality of the doctrine based on the outcomes. And since one of the ring-leaders was prone to exaggerating every misperception of chance as a "miracle", the outcomes were always rosy.

 

I have seen people be cajoaled to behave certain ways and I have seen people respond to this coaxing. The difference between these folks and Kreskin is that Kreskin takes a hearty entertainment fee and pretends that what he is doing is supernatural whereas the religious folks get a kick from the control that you willingly hand to them.

 

These people are no more mentally ill than a common theif for whom I could make the argument that theft is illogical considering that you will eventually get caught and that is therefore madness and only a trait of mentally unstable people.

 

This is not mental illness.

 

This is training people to respond by rewarding them for strange displays of pseudo-holyness.

 

Some people are more receptive than others to this kind of experience. Generally speaking I wasn't. I was a watcher and I made mental notes that serve me today.

 

I have a cousin that says she had some mystical dream of hell or something that was so scary that she won't tell it to weak people since some people can't handle it. I roll my eyes to this. I don't really care to hear her story because it will undoubtly leave me in the position of knowing that she created this menagerie of images in her fertile imagination and I don't want to have to respond. I've seen this woman draw flawed conclusions because she forgot some relevant fact and she is sooooooo fucking certain of her point of view that I have to work my ass off to explain something simple. And the other half wits around her who can't keep facts straight think she's the cat's ass.

 

My cousin is not mentally ill and she's not exactly stupid either. She easily reasons and manipulates the things she sees as true but is almost incapable of examining them. Once something is deemed true, she can't be moved.

 

SOOOO...

 

This nature of "training" does not disappear as soon as you toss your beliefs. These experiences comprise an emotional history and to let go of them we need to grieve their loss.

 

A book I read talked about how children at Columbine and other schools with a tragedy actually played "Assassin" or other such game. The activity actually helped remap the emotional brain to stop responding to non-threatening stimuli and allow them to reset to 'normal'.

 

Autonomous needs practical ideas on how to set her emotional responses to 'normal' and stop reacting to various stimuli with a longing for god or god's path or whatever.

 

It would appear that Autonomus is more sensitive than most to emotional input. That is as far as I would go.

 

Mongo

[OpheliaGinger]

It very well could be that the experiences Autonomous felt was a god calling to her, even though I agree with the science that it isn't, but you you still have to define as god--I for one know that the Abrahamic god is in fact not a god.

 

The stimuli in the environment can cause feelings of a spiritual presence. Autonomous might would want to have an electrician make sure there isn't an abnormal amount of electricity being put out. Electricity can make one feel like they are in the presence of god, there are ghosts around, they are about to be abducted by aliens, or cause them to have violent mood swings. If there is excess electricity in Autonomous's home, it is the violent mood swings that I would be most concerned about.

[Autonomous]

This is really getting silly now.

 

So I said that I am not happy living a robolife.

 

And I said I had a couple of experiences as a Christian (actually 3 in the whole 22 years) that I haven't been able to explain away and find it hard to let go of, being that they were so special and beautiful.

 

And I said I am finding it hard to work out how to be able to tune into my emotions and intuition without going back to Christianity (or some other spirituality), yet I can't do that anyway as I don't believe in any of them.

 

I did not say I wanted to go back to Christianity. I do not believe in Christianity so couldn't go back even if I did want to. I did not post here because I wanted to be put down, ridiculed, told I am delusional, am "seeking imaginary creatures" or that I want to be told God is speaking to me. How anyone can find those things in my words here, I don't even know.

 

What I have learned here on this forum is that I don't want to end up a rude, bitter, angry, judgemental, intolerant, arrogant person who thinks that I know better than anyone else (unless they agree with me!) and that it's my job to show everyone else the error of their ways. Seems like some of you have just swapped one form of self-righteous fundamentalism for another.

 

I am, and will remain, autonomous. And I choose to remove myself from an environment which is contributing to me feeling a lot more negative about being an atheist. I have heard so many times here, what lovely people atheists are, but the voiciferous minority here certainly don't give a good impression.

 

I can find my own way and I will. I have come so far already in the 3 years since I walked away from my church. I hoped this might be a place that could support me in that journey, where I might find a little understanding. Some of that I have found (thankyou) but it is little compared with the unhelpful stuff. I'm hanging around here because it isn't easy to walk away and go back to being alone, the only person I know who was a Christian but isn't now. But I know that I won't find what I need here.

[Guest ephymeris]

Autonomous, I know it's been said here before but it's hard to be completely understood using only written communication. You made a post, people commented on it and tried to offer advice, offer opinions, empathize, share their own experiences, and share concerns. Some posts were friendly, some cold, some complementary, some insulting and this appears to be pissing you off. I don't know what you expect from an online community but I'd say this is pretty status quo. Sorry if everyone in a single community didn't suddenly gain perfect understanding of your thoughts, ideas, and experiences from your original post. I think you are expecting too much from humans.

[florduh]

But I still feel it singing in my heart. Any time I allow myself to consider God might be there, I feel that call again. recently I spoke to my husband about it and I had an overwhelming feeling of God's presence (what I used to think was God's presence, it is a feeling of tingling all over, a roaring sound in my ears and sometimes my eyesight blacks out and I can even be doubled over by it) just like I used to do when we talked about it.

 

That led me to believe you were still having episodes.

 

When you consider that God might be there, then you get that feeling of tingling, roaring, etc. so it appears an ongoing problem. Yet you say rationally you reject the whole thing. You seem to be saying you believe in the Bible god, but reject him. You acknowledge biological causes, but imply you think there must be more to it somehow.

 

What do you expect for answers, given that scenario? What do you want to hear?

[Autonomous]

I didn't come here for answers from outside myself. I didn't come here to be told what to believe or how to think. I came here for support in learning to find my own path without religiousity to guide me.

 

I am grateful to all who posted and wanted to help. I appreciate your taking the time to do that. That doesn't mean I have to accept everything that is said to me, or be happy to be talked down to.

 

I don't think my expectations are at fault. I have been a member of a number of internet fora over the last 8 years and am pretty well versed in the issues of online communication and also well aware that not every post will be sweetness and light.

 

If my initial post was unclear I apologise, my focus was on working out my thoughts by talking them through. I would assume it is fairly normal for people coming here, especially in the early days, to be quite confused by the jumble of emotions, thoughts, ideas and practical issues they are dealing with. I think this forum should be a place where those people can talk through their issues and be supported in working out the answers for themselves and finding their own way forward. Their own way, not the right way in someone elses eyes.

 

Now I suggest that we all move on, I will go and find somewhere more appropriate to my needs to talk about where I am and you can get on with whatever your goal is here.

[Vigile]

I did not say I wanted to go back to Christianity. I do not believe in Christianity so couldn't go back even if I did want to. I did not post here because I wanted to be put down, ridiculed, told I am delusional, am "seeking imaginary creatures" or that I want to be told God is speaking to me. How anyone can find those things in my words here, I don't even know.

 

What I have learned here on this forum is that I don't want to end up a rude, bitter, angry, judgemental, intolerant, arrogant person who thinks that I know better than anyone else (unless they agree with me!) and that it's my job to show everyone else the error of their ways. Seems like some of you have just swapped one form of self-righteous fundamentalism for another.

 

Autonomous, I'll try to reiterate what I wrote to you at the beginning of this thread. I've been on this site for quite a while now and I think it has taught me a few things (hopefully). One of those things I've been learning is that not everyone is like me and not everyone needs to come to the same conclusions as me. I'm not spiritual and that's ok. Some people are spiritual and that's ok too. Being spiritual isn't a question of being right or wrong, it's being true to your own psychological makeup.

 

Frankly, it makes me a bit sad that you feel that you are being abused and misunderstood here because this is a diverse community that has many members who can easily empathize with your desires and needs and self realization.

 

I personally am guilty of the "sin" of trying to get others to see the errors of their ways. It's a mental exercise that is quite enticing to those with a certain background, certain way of thinking, and certain personality. It's not always a bad thing given the right context. In the context of your situation I don't think it is right. I'm also confident that you have a lot to contribute here and confident that there are those here who could contribute greatly to your own situation if you just give them a chance. If I could think of a way to implore you to get thicker skin and shrug off those suggestions/comments that you don't find helpful in a more diplomatic way than asking you go grow a thicker skin I would do it. Sadly at this time I can't think of a way.

 

So if you can find it in yourself to do so, give the others here who haven't really had a chance to pipe in a chance. I think we can all learn a lot from this if you just let cooler heads (all heads) prevail.

 

Whatever you choose to do I wish you peace and happiness.

[Antlerman]

Autonomous, have you ever considered that the fact of the sorts of questions you are asking helps others here? I have found that questions like these are very much a part of many people here, and that to have you asking them allows them to hear things that may help them. To allow yourself to be shut down by the skeptics, does a disservice to not just yourself, but those who you may help by you going though your process here.

 

This describes me and my participation here very well. It's been one long road of me sounding out loud my thoughts and ideas, bouncing them off others, exploring new avenues of thought, challenging the status quo, pushing the envelope. The result for me has been a tremendous personal growth, and I have seen at every step of the way here for me, a list of others who have been helped by me themselves through my process here. They have gained insights for themselves through my work on me.

 

The difference is I am unconcerned with the skeptic not 'getting' what I'm saying, or that they may even consider me a 'flake' or something. I have a huge confidence in what I'm finding, and it comes from something that is inside of me, something that all my 'spiritual' interests express for me.

 

If you want to walk out of this community because of those who you feel can't allow room for thoughts that go 'beyond reason', then that is a shame. I certainly am looking forward to discussing your thoughts, as I see a value and a benefit to myself in doing so. And I have no doubt in my mind that I could offer some fairly deep insights for you - as the nature of your questions leads me to conclude. Just read this, and if you are interested in those who are also here along with the skeptics, but don't let others stand in the way of where we are at because of where they are at, then let me know. Read this: http://www.ex-christian.net/index.php?/topic/19243-the-doctrine-of-hell/page__st__200__p__318390#entry318390

 

You are more than welcome to stay here, and in fact I feel you can be valuable to other members here. But this is a diverse community, and I have no intention of making others conform to my way thinking, anymore than I have of them acting out to make me conform to theirs. I genuinely am autonomous myself, and as part of that, I don't need to convince anyone of my beliefs, or have them accept mine. They are my beliefs.

[NotBlinded]

But I still feel it singing in my heart. Any time I allow myself to consider God might be there, I feel that call again. recently I spoke to my husband about it and I had an overwhelming feeling of God's presence (what I used to think was God's presence, it is a feeling of tingling all over, a roaring sound in my ears and sometimes my eyesight blacks out and I can even be doubled over by it) just like I used to do when we talked about it.

I don't want to sound degrading of your experiences or anything, but what you are describing above is exactly how I would describe the panic attacks that I used to experience. These are not pleasant sensations for me anyway.

 

Edit: I posted this after reading the opening post. If you're still around, I apologize if this offends you but, these are the symptoms I experienced and I would also hit the ground until the ringing in my ears stopped and I could actually see again. These were brought on by fears in my case.

[HRDWarrior]

So, basically it really is "all in our head" but you're not crazy, either. There is a reason why you feel that way - obviously different people would have different reaction to such brain activity, but no matter the religion or reason behind it, there is a biological reason why you have those feelings.

 

Now you just have to decide if you still prefer to think that it is god intervening and causing such a reaction or not - but that is your decision, not mine. I have my views of it, but I can't decide for you if you want to attribute it to biology or a god.

And therefore, it has no value. Right? Because it has a connection to the biological?

 

Well, that's an interesting leap of reason. Or should I say faith?

 

That was never stated in anything I said - I was just pointing out that there is a reason why people may have these types of experiences without it being any type of "imbalance" or other mental problem. How you got that I was saying it had no meaning baffles me - I was simply pointing out that these experiences are, in deed, very real, and there's a reason for it. My husband likes to think that the brain reacts that way because of a connection with a supernatural being - I personally don't, but that's my interpretation of it. In fact, my hubby orginally found this information, and for him it gave a reason for those experiences....

[florduh]

To allow yourself to be shut down by the skeptics

I don't think her problem is with skeptics:

 

How can I have a genuine spirituality if I don't believe in spirituality, without deluding myself?

She does not accept spirituality but is having serious (losing vision, etc.) episodes that harken back to the church days. She wants to feel spiritual but is a scientist and understands the mechanisms of emotion (still, I don't lump temporary blindness with typical pentecostal emotionalism). She knows that the symptoms she used to experience, or is still experiencing - depending on which post you read - have causes and triggers that require no supernatural intervention. Yet, there is that temptation to wonder "what if it's true" and just go with realizing you're deluding yourself for expediency. She's not alone, but rather difficult to have dialog with.

 

So, she pretty much wants to be "spiritual" without having any spiritual beliefs. She wants input, but only if the possibility of panic attacks, health issues, hallucinations and certain other mental events aren't mentioned. Sorry, but considering what we have to work with, they are all possibilities.

 

I do not want to waste my time on delusions. So if it is all delusions them yes I want rid of it.

She is her own skeptic and the posters here are trying to sort through the conflicting and confusing questions - if indeed there are any questions. Maybe it was just more of a rant and not a vehicle for seeking anyone's input.

[Autonomous]

Just to clarify on the experiences, I only had the full on version of that one once (the vision blanking, ears roaring version) but would sometimes get a lesser version (same tingly, blissful feeling but milder and without the rest) whilst praying or discussing spiritual issues with my dh (it would happen when I spoke out about what I thought God wanted us to do, which is why I took it as confirmation of his will at the time). It hasn't happened the whole time I have been away from Christianity, until the night this week that I discussed my confusion about what I had previously experienced and thought about what God was saying. When I talked about considering the possibility that God did exist and did have this plan for me, the feelings came back. That was confusing. I do not think it is a neurological condition or a panic attack. I think it comes into the category of a spiritual experience (not saying I think something real is behind it).

 

Yes, I am my own sceptic, and yes that is a problem for me. My questions are conflicting and confusing. Quite frankly I hate where I am right now. For example, since I left Christianity a big part of my journey has been seeking to find and express my authentic self. Now I am wondering, do I have an authentic self? If there is no soul or instrinsic "me" then I am just a product of my neurochemistry which I already know can change even depending on what I have eaten (food intolerance crap I deal with). I heard a radio programme yesterday about brain injured people and how their personalities can change. What is the true self? Is a depressed person their true self when depressed or when on prozac? No I am not asking you to tell me the answer LOL! Do I even have an authentic self or am I just a machine and my mind nothing more than the sum of the chemistry going on in my brain? I find that profoundly unsettling. Such are the things the ex-spiritual person has to process.

 

I chose to be an ex-Christian and I was happy about that. What I didn't bargain for was finding myself a sceptic and athiest who believes that there is no such thing as genuine spirituality and that the material and it's functioning is all there is. It is no wonder I am thinking back to my Christian days and wondering what it would be like to abandon myself to those feelings again. Maybe if I did it without the crap I'd be happier.

 

The human race evolved to be spiritual, because it benefitted us in various ways. So now I think I am enlightened and know better. But I still have the same physiology, I can't make that go away.

 

And yes, I am thin skinned, I am an emotional and sensitive person as I'm sure you can see LOL. And despite it being 3 years since I left church, I am going through some fairly newbie turmoil because I only recently rejected my pagan ideas. Some of the things I am realising, I am finding difficult to cope with. And it helps me to talk and feel understood. And I know that my purpose when doing that is difficult for some to understand and they assume I am wanting them to give me answers. Suggestions and ideas are good, but being told "I know the facts and you are deluded" isn't... reminds me far too much of the way my dh used to speak to me before I put my foot down about some of his behaviours.

 

I am learning to respect myself and to ask to be treated with respect by others, and currently that is something very important to me. I didn't come here for someone to fix it, I came here because I wanted someone to say, I'm listening and I understand what you're going through and to let me work things through so I could find my own answers. If I'm going to let myself be told what to think I might as well have stayed in church! My self-esteem was very low when I left Christianity and I had been treated as if I was of little value in my last church. I still struggle sometimes to have confidence in myself and not get upset about what people think of me. That makes it hard to deal with the way some people post here.

 

I think another factor is that my Christian background is very different from what most people here speak about. It seems that UK Christianity is quite different from a lot of US Christianity for a start. For instance I never believed that I could say that everyone who hasn't trotted out a certain prayer or done certain things would go to hell, I always believed that it was up to God to decide and trusted that he would judge fairly. The churches I have been in have generally been warm, loving places despite the mistakes and immaturity of the leadership which I dealt with in my last church. Theologically they were evangelical but not fundamentalist, in fact quite liberal compared with most of what I read about here. I was not taught that it was dangerous to think for myself or ask questions or that science is an enemy of Christianity for example. In fact when I took the Alpha course the vicar delighted in hearing and discussing the big and difficult questions and did not claim to have all the answers. And I'd say it was mildly charismatic- hand waving, contempory music, some tongues and ecstatic expressions rather than writhing on the floor and casting out demons every week LOL. To be honest when I read people really going at other people here, it makes church and Christianity seem more appealing to me in comparison, and that isn't something I want to be dealing with right now.

 

I can see that there would be value in my staying here. I feel that the forum is somewhat dominated by a certain sector of the ex-Christian populace and people of my personality type or from my kind of background may not find it a helpful or welcoming place. The only way to change that is for some of us to stick around and keep posting despite what some others may say about our approach. However, at the moment I am experiencing a degree of emotional turmoil in dealing with the new realisations I am having, and I am not feeling very tough, and I need to look after myself first.

[Autonomous]

Antlerman, I just read that link, thankyou for that.

[mwc]

If you think that "god" is mucking about inside you and, for some reason, wants you to go inside a special building to have "relations" with it...then go.

 

Why would you have a desire to bring it up to the group only to tell us how wrong we are about your subjective experience? You understand, as a scientist, the objective aspect but then argue using your subjective experience. Very well then. It's decided. Your subjective experience trumps anything objective and so you should now go act upon that.

 

My subjective experience says that no matter how many times you actually ask ANY, and I mean ANY, supernatural beings to actually come to you and identify themselves in an UNAMBIGUOUS way, a way that does not rely on interpretation of any sort, that this will ALWAYS FAIL. This is to say that I must be awake, alert and it must occur in the presence of others preferably in a recorded situation. This being must identify themselves and demonstrate supernatural ability. A feeling? Not good enough. What is good enough? That rests inside my head and a supernatural entity should be able to wrest that from me with ease I would think.

 

To date, with my "soul" at stake, no entities, good, bad or indifferent have arrived to take possession. I think it's a pretty good deal but maybe my "soul" isn't as fresh as it once was? Perhaps they go stale over time? I don't know.

 

However, I would imagine that anyone trying to "reach out" to you would be a bit more clear. Does your husband call and just hang up relying on you to "guess" at who it was and what he wanted? Do your parents? Friends? So all you get is the "ring" and a click? Then you pick up and go around to whichever one you think it might have been hoping they called for you? Following your "gut?" It might work but it's probably a waste of time overall if you do. And it's quite rude of them to assume like that. Most likely you get a message (and probably their number on the display) so your choices aren't so haphazard.

 

Anyhow, you seem to be off trying to figure out who may have called for you. I hope it's that guy you, and everyone else, has been waiting for.

 

mwc

[florduh]

Autonomous, thanks for clarifying. I think I understand.

 

From the perspective of a "Christian culture" certain emotional experiences automatically get translated as "spiritual", whatever that means to you.

 

Could there be a god doing this to your biological systems, or are there other, more likely causes? That's a choice people make for themselves.

 

Many people feel "spiritual" without a belief in spirit or the supernatural at all. Certain Buddhists and Pagans come to mind. Over here, about half of the people attending the UU church are atheists, yet they practice an emotionally satisfying kind of spirituality.

 

I understand the struggle when your emotions are at odds with your intellect. The smarter and more educated one is, the harder it is to give in to letting the emotional side of the mind have its say. Eventually, you will find a balance.

 

Again, good luck, and keep asking questions. The answers you get here aren't directives, just viewpoints and experiences.

[Shyone]

 

I can see that there would be value in my staying here. I feel that the forum is somewhat dominated by a certain sector of the ex-Christian populace and people of my personality type or from my kind of background may not find it a helpful or welcoming place. The only way to change that is for some of us to stick around and keep posting despite what some others may say about our approach. However, at the moment I am experiencing a degree of emotional turmoil in dealing with the new realisations I am having, and I am not feeling very tough, and I need to look after myself first.

When you can, I hope you'll come back (or secretly stick around). You've made it, and you have valuable insights for others who haven't quite made it.

 

The value you see goes both ways, and this forum will miss out on what you could contribute, but you're absolutely right that your needs come first.

 

I've enjoyed your writings, and look forward to more in the future (if I stick around - you never know).

[ShallowByThyGame]

Certainly we can not tell you what you experienced, we can only react. I don't want to tell you what to think, just to keep thinking. There is no knowledge that is not power.

 

If you are interested in understanding what is going on in your head, we can give you suggestions of where to look for help. If you know what's going on and just need a place to talk about how it makes you feel on a daily basis, we can listen and give comfort.

 

It reminds me of my wife a little. She wants to talk about problems without me trying to fix them(which is hard since solving problems is my profession), because her talking about them is how she comes up with solutions on her own, we as an independent person she wants to do. All I can do is assist her thinking by asking poignant questions. Is that what you think you need?