If you could prove Christianity false

[dogmatically_challenged]

Absolutely!  I wouldn't hesitate.  I'd shout it from the rooftops.  It's a sick mindfuck and the world would be a far far better place without it.  Those like my parents whose own will has atrophied under the crutch would get over it or not. It would be up to them to stand on their own two feet.

 

This happened in Russia.  Communism was their religion.  It took care of its believers and then one day the rug was yanked out from under them.  Some handled it swimmingly and others let it destroy them.  The world is better off and Russia is better off though.  The same would be true of xtianity's demise.  Let its end be short and sweet like pulling off a bandaid.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Me too. I'd share all information freely. Of coarse, if we had all the dirt on Christianity would scholars admit to these things?

 

Personally, I think our government loves xianity because the bible focuses only on what god wants..that is, non issues that are not revelent really to THIS world. God/jesus and heaven is the focus and EVERYTHING else in the real world takes a back seat. Xians are perfect slaves. Perfect "citizens". Perfect dupes. So long as politicians plays a little lip service to jesus and his values the slaves are easily pacified, while politicians make themselves and Corporations richer. Give unto Caesar what is Caesar's while spinning you wheels for jesus. The American Empire is great isn't it.

[Checkmate]

I don't think any person could write a book that would take down the whole of Christianity.  For one thing, very few books are read popularly and worldwide.  For another thing, nobody could get every Christian to read it.  Third, there are many church leaders who run their churches as a business and not as a mission to humanity, and they are not going to give up their bread and butter over a book. 

 

All some Christians have to do is invoke a few failsafes and there are no proofs that will ever convince them.

Agreed. I believe there are already more than enough books and internet resources that disprove and debunk Xianity and religion, and YET nothing much is changing.

 

Christians™ have entirely too many safeguards and support systems to prevent them from critically examining their faith. To get to any of them, you'd first have to burn down their churches, make religion illegal and THEN force them to listen to reason, one by one. THAT is not going to happen.

 

Write all the books you want. It won't mean a thing to people who choose NOT to listen to reason. Face facts: the only people who read atheist literature are atheists and skeptics. Real Christians™ don't read non-Christian literature. It's of the devil, don't ya know.

[dogmatically_challenged]

Agreed.  I believe there are already more than enough books and internet resources that disprove and debunk Xianity and religion, and YET nothing much is changing.

 

Christians have entirely too many safeguards and support systems to prevent them from critically examining their faith.  To get to any of them, you'd first have to burn down their churches, make religion illegal and THEN force them to listen to reason, one by one.  THAT is not going to happen.

 

Write all the books you want.  It won't mean a thing to people who choose NOT to listen to reason.  Face facts: the only people who read atheist literature are atheists and skeptics.  Real Christians don't read non-Christian literature.  It's of the devil, don't ya know.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I think that if more heathes were more visible in thier communities the number of xian believers would be reduced as well as the number of people who are non xian that believe that the bible makes people good people. People are good because they are good. If a certain xer I know all of a sudden became apostate the need for loving people and helping people would not die, that person would simply find another outlet.

 

Heathens can be good people too and I think THAT in itself would be a debunking.

 

Reducing the number of xian believers would be reducing the number of xian voters and potentially increase the number of voters who care about REAL WORLD issues. Reality.

 

The last election was pretty much split. An increase in heathens can make a difference.

 

When I say heathen I don't mean just atheists.

[Eudaimonist]

If you had facts that could prove Christianity is a lie, would you publish your book?

 

Of course! Not that it would deconvert any Christians, but it would make the rest of us feel better.

[Lunar Shadow]

Interesting question I thought I'd pose.

 

If you had facts that could prove Christianity is a lie, would you publish your book?

 

If you could prove that the Church knew it was a lie from it's earliest days, would you publish?

 

Something mum was ruminating on and I thought I'd share with the forum .

 

Merlin

 

 

In a fucking heart beat

[Guest uberkuh]

What would it take to invalidate Christianity? Atheism: The Case Against God by George H. Smith is pretty darn good.

[dogmatically_challenged]

Of course!  Not that it would deconvert any Christians, but it would make the rest of us feel better.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

You can not say it would not deconvert some. There is no way to know how many will and will not deconvert or if the amount would be appreciable. No one can say as no heathen really ( not many) have shared thier world view with others. All heathen's and not just atheists can do this and should not be discouraged by any heathen.

[Checkmate]

You can not say it would not deconvert some. There is no way to know how many will and will not deconvert or if the amount would be appreciable. No one can say as no heathen really ( not many) have shared thier world view with others. All heathen's and not just atheists can do this and should not be discouraged by any heathen.

Sure, there is literature that can convince a Christian™ to change his/her mind. Happens all the time. Unfortunately, I suspect that these people were ALREADY doubting and thus looking for truthful answers. (That's what happened to ME.)

 

True Believers™--people who have NO chinks in their armor of God--will NEVER investigate honestly ANY critique of their faith. Their eyes are closed, their ears are plugged and they believe that this is wisdom. To question is to doubt. To doubt is to be damned.

 

As with ANY cult member, the deconversion must begin within them. NO external force has a prayer of making a difference.

[dogmatically_challenged]

Sure, there is literature that can convince a Christian to change his/her mind.  Happens all the time.  Unfortunately, I suspect that these people were ALREADY doubting and thus looking for truthful answers.  (That's what happened to ME.)

 

True Believers--people who have NO chinks in their armor of God--will NEVER investigate honestly ANY critique of their faith.  Their eyes are closed, their ears are plugged and they believe that this is wisdom.  To question is to doubt.  To doubt is to be damned.

 

As with ANY cult member, the deconversion must begin within them.  NO external force has a prayer of making a difference.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I think there are more people who have doubts than the extremely brainwashed roobs your refering to. Heathen's gota poke around and see to know. If they want to know that is. If not that is cool, I just hope yall don't slap down others who want to test the waters.

[Checkmate]

I think there are more people who have doubts than the extremely brainwashed roobs your refering to. Heathen's gota poke around and see to know. If they want to know that is. If not that is cool, I just hope yall don't slap down others who want to test the waters.

Not me. I won't "slap down" anyone trying to escape the cults. I don't believe any of us here would do such a thing. I'd personally spend all my free time helping someone escape Xianity. But you must admit that even honest doubters are going to remain "in the closet" while they test the waters of UN-belief. They WON'T WANT to admit or confess even to people like us that they have wavering faith. It's a frightening prospect.

 

And yes, I suspect that the numbers of doubters FAR outstrip the "brainwashed rubes". All I'm saying is that the ball is necessarily in THEIR court. We can't help them out, unless they ask and make themselves known. Something they will be in denial about.

 

All I'm pointing out is that the "Books" that can convince anyone to leave Xianity are ALREADY in print. It is now incumbent upon people to read them and make honest appraisals.

[dogmatically_challenged]

Not me.  I won't "slap down" anyone trying to escape the cults.  I don't believe any of us here would do such a thing.  I'd personally spend all my free time helping someone escape Xianity.  But you must admit that even honest doubters are going to remain "in the closet" while they test the waters of UN-belief.  They WON'T WANT to admit or confess even to people like us that they have wavering faith.  It's a frightening prospect.

 

And yes, I suspect that the numbers of doubters FAR outstrip the "brainwashed rubes".  All I'm saying is that the ball is necessarily in THEIR court.  We can't help them out, unless they ask and make themselves known.  Something they will be in denial about.

 

All I'm pointing out is that the "Books" that can convince anyone to leave Xianity are ALREADY in print.  It is now incumbent upon people to read them and make honest appraisals.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Not me.  I won't "slap down" anyone trying to escape the cults.  I don't believe any of us here would do such a thing.  I'd personally spend all my free time helping someone escape Xianity.

I wanted to edit my post just a tad, but I came back too late. Sorry Mr. Grinch. I know. I was not talking about slapping down doubters. I was talking about slapping down those of us heathens who poke around and test the waters out there for xers who have doubts or for nonbelievers/atheists who hide. Also, it's real nice to meet another heathen offline ya know. We hide and never find eachother too. Lota reasons for a heathen to poke around.

 

But you must admit that even honest doubters are going to remain "in the closet" while they test the waters of UN-belief.

 

Yea.. I know what you are talking about. However, the books are not visible for all to see. Some folks question and think they are alone. Some folks question and admit that the bible is bull, but remain silent. It don't hurt none to poke around and see who's who. I have talked to some and some of them saw the value of being visible instead of being hidden.

 

Diversity is good for a community. Diversity can help people in having a little empathy towards people who hold a different world view. I think there are right and wrong ways to go about being visible in our communities.

 

Also, there is nothing wrong or counter productive with sharing any knowlege on the bible and church history with nonxers and half assed xers, who are having doubts, and who still support the bible and the church as making people good people ,or that xianity is all about tolerance. As we all know the bible is not all about tolerance. I really think if heathens were more visible then the books would be more visible. Even a dumb hillbilly that don't read might read these books if they were aware of them. Not everyone has a computer either.

[spamandham]

You can not say it would not deconvert some. There is no way to know how many will and will not deconvert or if the amount

 

I can testify to that! I say bruthas, I can test-if-I! Puh-ray-d-lo!

 

All of us who are exers once believed that crap. Something convinced us. In my case, it actually was reason that convinced me.

 

From my own experience, the vast majority of those who call themselves Christians do so because it's comfortable, or tradition, or that's how they were raised, or they had an emotional experience at a revival, or fear of being a social outcast, etc. The fundy nutjobs are the most vocal, but they are the vast minority I think.

 

The others, if you can get them past the fear of freethought, are willing to listen. Overcoming that fear is the real key to deconversion for all but the most deluded.

[pitchu]

It wouldn't hurt if, along with the sections (plural) on religion which the big chain bookstores offer, they could also be persuaded to put aside a tiny section called, "Reason."

 

...Preferably in a dark corner, where questioning xians could hide and browse without overwhelming fear of discovery.

[Fweethawt]

It wouldn't hurt if, along with the sections (plural) on religion which the big chain bookstores offer, they could also be persuaded to put aside a tiny section called, "Reason."

 

...Preferably in a dark corner, where questioning xians could hide and browse without overwhelming fear of discovery.

 

Ha!

 

Who says that us heathens don't have our own delusions?

 

Ha!

 

[pitchu]

Ha!

 

Who says that us heathens don't have our own delusions?

 

Ha!

 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Curses! Foiled again!

[dogmatically_challenged]

I can testify to that!  I say bruthas, I can test-if-I!  Puh-ray-d-lo!

 

All of us who are exers once believed that crap.  Something convinced us.  In my case, it actually was reason that convinced me.

 

From my own experience, the vast majority of those who call themselves Christians do so because it's comfortable, or tradition, or that's how they were raised, or they had an emotional experience at a revival, or fear of being a social outcast, etc.  The fundy nutjobs are the most vocal, but they are the vast minority I think.

 

The others, if you can get them past the fear of freethought, are willing to listen.  Overcoming that fear is the real key to deconversion for all but the most deluded.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

You can never know if some one is willing to listen or not unless heathens are visible to them first. I think of lot of people forget that not everyone has a computer or are in the habit of reading. People forget that there are all kinds of information available yet most people are not even aware of it.

 

I still maintain that the more visible heathens are the more chance that Free Thought can be a culture in any community. Once that starts people can realize that knowlege is power, because they are exposed to folks who know that it is. Sometimes I wonder if not giving a half assed xer a chance is soft bigotry. You can't know until you approach a person.

 

I think people have a right to the opportunitely to know what the bible really is and about church history. I think folks should be given the chance to be turned on to Free thought as well.

 

I also think that the unbelievers who are quiet might appreciate being befriended by some one who is an unbeliever as well. Can't know until you poke around.

 

If people don't want to do this that's cool, but why slap down the heathens that are interested?

 

Some have said to do these things is playing the same game as xers. It is not playing the same game, it is offering people an opportunity that they might not be fully aware of, while potentially bringing more diversity to a communty; without resorting to empty threats and bribes that exploit the disenfranchized. It is not the same thing as what xers do.

 

To help reduce the amount of people who vote based on faith or the belief that xian platforms are good. Even some non religious do that. Is it really sinnister to give people the opportunity to vote based on what they know instead of what they believe? Keep in mind democracy is about sharing information in order to be well informed and changing eachothers minds based on information. Changing eachothers minds with information is a part of that process.

 

I never said anything about riding the same person on this reapeatedly, just poke around and see who's who.

[Christopher Carrion]

Even if you did it wouldn't make a blind bit of difference. There are already plenty of books out there that demonstrate quite clearly the factors and conditions that inspired the many books of the bible, the various pre and co-existing mythologies from which they drew their most prominent and significant stories, and the archaeological/historical evidence that proves most of them to be no more or less viable than the Brother's Grimm's Fairy Tales.

 

But yes, I would nonetheless.

[Checkmate]

A lot of us are here because of what we saw in the bible. It's a great deconversion tool when read with an open mind.

OF COURSE! How could I have forgotten?! The greatest deconversion book possible is the Bible itself! How many of US have deconverted because we HONESTLY read and studied the buy-bull? That's what did it for me.

 

So if you've "tested the waters" and found that you're in the presence of a "Doubting Thomas", what better book to use than the book they ALREADY have? Who needs the internet, Barnes and Noble or Amazon.com, when you've got the "inspired werd of gawd" to poke holes in? Everything else is just gravy.

 

Why recreate the wheel? Just have people read their bibles. It would probably be the first time for many of them.

[Amethyst]

It wouldn't hurt if, along with the sections (plural) on religion which the big chain bookstores offer, they could also be persuaded to put aside a tiny section called, "Reason."

 

Ironically, the Barnes & Noble near me puts religion (including the New Age & Wicca books), philosophy, and science all in the same corner of the store. I find it rather amusing.

[Dhampir]

problem with the bible is, that once a lot of people actually get to reading it for themselves, they already have preconcieved notions driven into them to rationalize those parts which would prove god to be something with which they'd not want contact.

 

If I had irrefutable proof, I'd publish it in a heartbeat. If it were irrefutable, there'd be little arguing against it, so the naysayers would probably fizzle out, the angriest of them being the ones who knew the farce all along and have just lost their livelihoods.

 

Some might consider the people who'd be devastated by it, and who might lose their minds. That's definitely possible, but then again, religion has driven a number of people to despair and madness, so I consider it like ripping off a band-aid.

[dogmatically_challenged]

Even if you did it wouldn't make a blind bit of difference. There are already plenty of books out there that demonstrate quite clearly the factors and conditions that inspired the many books of the bible, the various pre and co-existing mythologies from which they drew their most prominent and significant stories, and the archaeological/historical evidence that proves most of them to be no more or less viable than the Brother's Grimm's Fairy Tales.

 

But yes, I would nonetheless.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I am not talking about destroying the whole of xianity. I know that we would if we could, but that ain't what I'm talking about. I am talking about reducing the number of xers in the western world...ESPECIALLY America. Reducing xian voters would be a good thing. Deconverting would be one part but not everything. Getting people to question thier churches in politics whether or not they remain xians would be a good thing. Getting people to really value science. Which is real? The fruits of science or alleged miracles? Empowering folks to dicriminate based on reason and NOT faith would be a good thing. If heathens were more visible and Free Thought were known to most people it would have a positive impact even at different levels of ability in individuals. It would still be good.

 

I've heard some of yall say "Oh there are plenty of books on Philosophy, Comparative Religion, debunking the bible and books that explain science to the layperson out there already" Yes Sir, I know that, but people STILL are not aware of these books and since these things pretty much seem to be the trappings of heathens; any exposer to heathens will make them at least aware of these things for further investigation and discussion with others. Which would be to thier benifit as well as EVERYONES. I maintain that if heathens were more visible that damage could be reduced. Anything wrong with that, or is it all or nothing with some of you?

 

For those who are not closeted, pagans, deists, agnostics, atheists...HEATHENS....might as well talk about Free Thought to people who you meet, who you know that might be curious. Share books and links with the few people who are interseted. If many heathens did this then it would be a positive thing that would contribute to reducing the damage that comes from descrimination that is faith based. Gota poke around a little bit. How hard is it to talkabout things that you are already interested in around others offline from time to time. To poke around and see who's who?

 

If every heathen says, "Well the books are out there let them find them." and then discourages others who talk about spreading Free Thought...it is no wonder that people do not know about free thought or the other books. People learn many things from eachother through interacting with others. Books they never heard of. Ideas that never came to mind.

 

I am an aspiring anti-evangelist evangelist, and am intersted in spreading free thought as well offline. Folks have tried to slap me down cause I'm trying to find or encourage others to do the same. I have no idea why that is. I just don't get it. You look on the main page here and a person gets the impression that this place is anti-xian, but when you interact in the forums it doesn't seem that way exactly. Whats with that?

[Amethyst]

Well, we could fight fire with fire. Start freethought hangout places of our own and advertise like crazy.

[dogmatically_challenged]

Well, we could fight fire with fire.  Start freethought hangout places of our own and advertise like crazy.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Advertizing takes money in a lot of instances but not always a lot of money.

 

In my neck of the woods we all ready done that kinda. One support group for help in dealing with any kind of addiction...god free. Two more that are striclty religion free, but only makes appeals to higher power only. I helped in those. Why are "adults" to chicken to talk about this stuff? In my area there are now three meetings were a person can get thier A.A. slip filled out for thier probation officer. Drunk drivers mainly. Some people are atheists or are god haters and don't want to hear the bullshit.

 

The godless support group I go to is small, but it is also a kind of secular club in between meetings. It is very slowly growing though.

 

Our college has no secular club! Some people I know want to make a club.

 

I think poking around for non-religious/non xians in our social circles can be a way to start hangouts. I still think that there are a lot of us around that we aren't aware of in our social circles.

[dogmatically_challenged]

Well, we could fight fire with fire.  Start freethought hangout places of our own and advertise like crazy.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I would like to know since when did heathens ever fight fire with fire? When? If we have done this then what were the negative impacts? Real life not just speculation.

 

Exchanging ideas with others is not the same thing as what the xians do in there prosylitizing or in church. Not anything like what you see between people who are interested in free thought. It is not the same thing. The xers are liers and make appeals to emotions using empty bribes and threats. That is the only hook they got. Free Thought is based on what is real, not lies and mobster tactics like pimp daddy jesus uses.

[Matthew]

YES! Most definitely!!

 

In fact, IS there anything like that on the market now? I mean, I have seen numerous sites and articles, but does anyone know of a book that comprises a lot of the evidence?

 

I would LOVE to read it.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I am considering working on a book on the resurrection of Christ. For a couple of years I was waiting for the book The Empty Tomb to be published but I have been disappointed by the book in several ways, including my favorite chapter on the "spiritual resurrection". I want to be able to publish the mother of all books critiquing the resurrection of Jesus and I actually have what I consider a new argument against the resurrection concept that's going to generate quite a bit of controversy.

 

Matthew