My Fundy Ex-Wife

[Abiyoyo]

I was conversing with my fundy ex the other day when we struck a topic of debate. I am a smoker, have been since I was 17. This has been a difficult thing for me to kick, mainly because I like to smoke

 

The conversation started by me telling her about some ideas of the book I'm starting to write, and my views on the tribulation. We were talking as normal, except she was getting fundalized on me, but I just kept talking as normal (we are on good terms, been friends since 18). I wanted to get my point across about the tribulation subject and started injecting questions.

 

First I asked if she was a pre-trib, post-trb, or what, Does she believe we are going to fly away as Paul says, and who is it that flies away?

 

Her answers. She believes all those that believe in Christ will be Raptured before the tribulation.

 

What about the verse that says 'those left will be tested' and I also threw some reasons out there of why I don't think we are going to fly away as most pre-trib Christians so think. This is where we began, I thought anyhow, debating. The reality is though that she was leading up to 'letting me know' of my sinful smoking habit.

 

I told her that smoking is not sinful. She insisted that I was not showing the image of Christ because I smoked, as well as being able to witness Christ to others. She also said that I could know all this stuff about the Bible, history, writing books, etc and still not be a witness to Christ because I smoke.

 

I told her that I don't want to witness Christ to people, and asked her if Christians are suppose to witness Christ? She told me yes, that is the great commission. I asked her if the great commission was for people to hear the Gospels of Christ, or for the individual to hear the Gospel. She said the individual. I told her that the majority of Americans have already heard the Gospel, and that's what the Bible says, to 'preach the Gospels to all nations'.

 

Then we went to the relationship with Jesus, and that we have to be 'sinless' so people can see Christ through us and be saved, and know how to have a relationship with Jesus. I kept trying to get back to the OP of the conversation, which was my view about the tribulation and what I feel the place Christians need to be at when the tribulation comes, if it does in my lifetime.

 

Now, at first, she specifically said that belief in Christ was the prerequisite for being raptured, and now, getting into my 'sinful way discussion' it has evolved to ' a relationship with Jesus' is the thing that will let me fly to heaven.

 

So, then I did my infamous(if you knew me outside the Ex-c, you would know) ,...my infamous, "Whoa, whoa, whoa here, but you said earlier that the people that believe in Christ would be raptured." And now, you say that have to have a 'personal relationship' with Jesus, and contain the 'appearance' of Christ as far as sinful nature in their lives? I then told her that is beginning to sound like James

 

Continuing, I said, but Paul said 'confess with you mouth, etc etc and be saved". She paused, and said yes, but, we still have to live to be like Christ. I said, "right, like Peter said, Be holy, as God is holy". She got very excited and said Yes! That's right.

 

I asked what is Holy, or sin? Am I not going to be raptured because of my sinful smoking habit? She never said, Yes that's right, you won't be raptured, but, she did say that I am not showing the appearance of Christ

 

So, back to square one. I asked her, Is it not possible that the message of Christ related to thousands of different aspects of many different people? For example, maybe God wants me in another capacity then someone else. I asked her what about what Peter's vision? Where God told him that what He has cleaned, do not call unclean( referencing to the Gentiles at the time). I asked her if that was comparable to smoking, circumcision of then. She said No

 

We discussed some other things to, such as Catholics view of sin, lesser and greater sins, as well if monks are saved because they serve God all day and night, by works more than faith. I personally say that works is dead without faith, but works with faith are good as well, and faith alone is the only thing required. She didn't agree about the lesser and greater sins, and said a sin is a sin, typical fundamentalist , but did agree that she felt a monk is saved because of his works, which then brought us back to Catholics, and nuns.

 

She also mentioned some other things, such as my occasional temper and cursing ( which, I acknowledge as sin), and that I drink every once in a while. As far as the drinking and the smoking, she brought out an arsenal of verse, like a Biblebot, except real.

 

I told her that I don't believe in drunkenness, and as far as smoking cigarettes, I don't believe that is sinful either. She still disagreed, even though I had my arsenal of reasoning as well, Biblically.

 

So, then, I asked her about the murderer on the cross, and the sinners Jesus dined with and spoke to, or what about the adulteress at the well? She then hurriedly said that Jesus forgave them and they didn't sin any longer. I said, yes, but he already knew every detail of their life, and even why they justified, if they even did, why they sinned. Also, he told the 'current murderer' that he would be in paradise with Him today.

 

So, getting on along, I mentioned also about the 'washing of the inside of the cup before the outside' and the two men that came to the temple, one praying for God to forgive him and the other praying for God to forgive the other man, because he was a real sinner, and that Jesus said the man praying for God forgiveness upon himself was more justified before God.

 

She then said, well, I am not judging you. I said but you are because you are saying that I am not the representation of Christ because I smoke, and smoking is bad for you and will kill you; and that Paul said that out bodies are temples of God and that we should care for it, etc etc I then said, Why did Jesus say not to worry about what we eat or drink?

 

Once again, trying to get back to the Op, I restated more specifically what my thoughts were. It is that I believe that many Christians think they are going to be whisked away in the air before tribulation, when they very well may not. Jesus said those left will be tested. The OT prophets say that God will try us, refine us as gold and silver is refined{Zechariah}. I used to be a jeweler, and refining Gold is basically heating it up until it is pure liquid, with the heat purifying the impurities in the gold, making the liquid Gold refine into pure gold, 100% pure gold. So ,the process of refining a person, IMO, would be to this same effect. What is the heat then?

 

I think the heat, spoken here in Zechariah, is the tribulation. I asked what would happen if just a few people went up to heaven, the saints of God on Earth, and everyone else was left on Earth to be tried, or refined. Would there faith in Christ be enough to get them through the atrocities of the tribulations?

 

My final thought was this addressing her. If the tribulation happened tomorrow, and you weren't raptured, what would you think? How would you feel? Would you be angry at God? Would you anger grow when you saw that some people gone are not what you consider a Christian? Now, supposedly, life goes on for 7 years, and many things happen in this world, including, the perishing of Christians, or martyrdom. The I said to her, Lets say during the tribulation, hypothetically, you are still here, and something happens which makes a Christian a threat to society in America, and considered a threat. Military and police are searching for anyone who is a Christian, Marshal law is declared nationally and Christians are to be shot on the spot, or lets say the country is taken over by extremists, who promise you will live as long as you convert to their religion or cult, and denounce Christ as God's son. I asked her if she would tell them yes if she had a gun to her head and this was the ultimatum? She paused.

 

I told her I feel that unless we have the faith of John the Baptist, Peter and Paul during post Christ crucifixion, I believe many will fail the test.

 

To the Ex-c'ers. I have always felt that Christ called for faith beyond faith, and it is obvious in early Christianity that martyrdom was the ultimate sign of great faith. Unfortunately, I am not sure if the average fundamentalist Christian understands this concept. Then again, maybe I am naive to think that they wouldn't gladly say shoot me in the head.

 

To end the conversation, I asked her one final question. If our faith in Christ was tested, tried, would smoking a cigarette at that point in time really matter? Is the person who doesn't smoke more justified than the smoker? Is their heart more pure? Would a person that smokes, that as you say aren't showing the representation of Christ, ..would they be less likely to take the bullet?

 

I say not in a million years. I would thank God before the bullet was shot, thank him for letting me come home, and for the experiences he gave me to have be able to have the faith to know that I will be with him from now on.

 

There are two ways of reading this story. One could read this and say, 'Another freaking fundy preaching and spreading his poison on this site', or one could read this and see that YoYo has his own problems in the real world, inadequacies, failures, loss of community for his thoughts and ideas, differences in religion, and sometimes abrasive judgment toward me and my theology, could be one reason why he posted on this site.

 

Most Christians I do not agree with in theology, doctrine, or Biblical messages and prophecy. At the least, I am not considered a 'learned Christian' or am lead astray from the flock, the church, Jesus' True^TM calling, by the conclusions of most other Christians outside here that I interact with, and sometimes on here as well.

 

I could go to a Christian forum, and have, just to be told that my experience and story about God was not from God, but from the devil. I could call my pastor, but he is probably busy, I could possibly bother him until he is free, but he may tell me to go preach on the streets, go house to house, or preach at WalMart for God, and that maybe I am not 'for' this denomination. I could be told that a Word^TM that I received from God one Sunday at a charismatic church, was not the Word, but the words of the devil, to derail him from the original message. I could be disassociated with by my family, friends, business associates because of my thoughts on God and Christ. And lastly, but certainly not the least,I could be labeled a hypocrite by my wife of five years, whom was always preaching to me to change my life, just because God gave me a different message to pass along. I have learned from the best, the best participants of judgment on Earth, fundamental, Bible thumping, my crap don't stink Christians that every single thin that I have learned, felt, experienced, and received as my message to Christianity, is false, and of the devil.

 

Let this be my official testimony of why I am on this site, why I am not at a Christian site posting away, why I am not out having tea or coffee with all my assumed Christian envoy. I am no different than anyone else here, other than the fact that I believe in Christ.

 

We all despise the ways and the lack of understanding from the same fundamentalist that say we are going to hell. Well, don't worry, they tell me that I am hellbound as well, or a false prophet, or demon possessed (in that angel prancing in the night kind of way), blasphemous for not believing that the Bible is the authoritative Word^TM from God, divinely written by God, making it the literal laws and bylaws of God, or that I do not 'act' like a Christian. Maybe I am not a true Christian, maybe I am demon possessed, maybe I heard a false message. But, I do know that my nature, my being, my thoughts, my compassion, my heart, and my strength are all different than before. I am human, and with or without God I fail and succeed. By, my convictions are what differentiates my state of being prior to becoming a believer and the present state of who I am in Christ. I had no convictions, and the convictions that subsequently came afterward were not because of years of church, Jesus conventions, self righteousness, being a fundamentalist, or 'brainwashing'. The simple conviction for me was love, and all it's applications in human life, and the self acknowledgment that 'I can' be there for someone that I love, or even a stranger that needs help, even if rationally, it seems wrong, or not the best idea.

 

This opened my life, and it came into fruition for me by believing in Christ, and ultimately changed my life in the inside for the good, and on the outside not so good. I ask that this be my testimony at Ex-C, so that anyone can read and understand that I as well, am hurt by people, by the church, by Ministers^TM of God, and that just because I have a Christian symbol on my profile and Christian God as my God does not mean that I am anything like a fundamental Christian. Even here, some of my thoughts, theories, ideas are construed as heretical. I only ask you to ask yourself how much more I would be considered heretical in real life, at a real life church, with real life church people, and real life fundamentalists. The answer is a great deal.

 

For the record. I have always understood that this is an Ex-Christian site, and even that it is for recovering people that have left Christianity. Sadly, I am recovering in my own ways as well. I do discuss Biblical topics, and debate, because Biblical topics are always being discussed here, and debate opens the mind and references to study of works, religions, history, sciences, politics.

 

I am thick skinned, especially toward whatever anybody wants to claim I am to be, because I have been judged by fundamentalists as well. But, have you ever wondered why that is? Could it possibly be because I was also rejected by the Christians before I even came to this site?

 

I have always followed the rules of these forums to the best of my knowledge, and I have always come to the table when there is a problem with me as a Christian ^TMmember. But here recent I have been put up as a Christian^TM, with all the negative adjectives. Point in case, I am a human being just as anyone else here, and have similar problems with most here and I have been around these forums for a few years now and have always appreciated the different insights into things.

 

I have said in the past, to various people, that this site has actually made me a better Christian in my mind, helped me deal with my beliefs in the real world. Though it may be odd, repulsive, funny, crazy, difficult, unsettling to some members here; it is the truth.

 

I know technically I don't belong here, but without technicalities, in my mind, I do belong here. I am sorry if I have offended anyone. I believe in Christ, so I guess I must wear the symbol of the Christian, and I do have pride of the symbol, because it is my belief just as you cherish your symbols of overcoming the rhetoric of mainstream Christianity and are now apart of these forums; but to be honest, I think these situations of recent has been an unfortunate thing, and hope that somehow it is rectified and thought upon the same as many would want their own problems thought upon, and if need be, I will find a new home.

[NotBlinded]

Abi,

 

I loved that you shared your heart with us! One thing for certain...we will never damn you to hell or say you are being led by the devil. I have said more than once that I like you and I do! You're a silly human like the rest of us and if there is a God, it won't care who you choose to worship or what minor little things you do. I sense you are a good person so sit back, grab a smoke and welcome to our world! It seems you are fighting the same thing we are and personally, I'm glad you are here.

[FiddlingAround]

Of course you belong here...even if you don't. Life's funny, and you never know where you'll find a community that feels like home.

 

I'm glad you posted this. I had been wondering why you would bring certain things here for discussion when they were unlikely to get a favorable reception. I understand a little better now.

 

So bring on the crazy ideas! Just don't be surprised that they stir up more debate than agreement.

[RationalOkie]

Abi - You definetly belong here. You wouldn't last 5 minutes without us. Can I have your stuff when you're raptured?

[Deva]

Yeah, you belong here in the Lions Den, Yoyo, where you may testify to your heart's content.

[par4dcourse]

Since you got such glowing replies I went back and actually read the OP.

Sinn/not sin blah, blah, jebus, blah blah, rapture, flying people, blah.

Total waste of 10 minutes, and I've got time to kill.

[Abiyoyo]

Since you got such glowing replies I went back and actually read the OP.

Sinn/not sin blah, blah, jebus, blah blah, rapture, flying people, blah.

Total waste of 10 minutes, and I've got time to kill.

 

No comment on the rest? What should I expect form you par4dcourse, you are one of the few that inspired it.

[Abiyoyo]

 

 

Thank you for sharing your testimony. We are all works-in-progress here.

 

In friendship,

Phanta

 

 

Abi,

 

I loved that you shared your heart with us!

 

 

Of course you belong here...even if you don't. Life's funny, and you never know where you'll find a community that feels like home.

 

 

 

Thank you for reading in all the way through, and your comments.

 

 

Abi - You definetly belong here. You wouldn't last 5 minutes without us. Can I have your stuff when you're raptured?

 

Sure

[Autonomous]

Your ex's views seem nonsensical to me but then I'm from the UK and fundamentalism is pretty alien to me.

 

So only those who are holy will be saved? So she doesn't believe that Jesus died for her sins or in forgiveness then? Does she believe that she is perfectly holy as she believes God is holy? Because if so then surely that would mean Jesus died for nothing. Or does she believe we are only forgiven the things we confess and repent of and never do again? So any one sin we didn't notice or realise was a sin, and that's that, no salvation? Or a sinful habit we didn't manage to break before our dying day?

 

I know I haven't addressed the tribulation but that's because I know nothing about any of that kind of theology.

 

If you lived in the UK you could go to my dh's nice, cosy and loving Church of England church and you'd be very welcome and not have to deal with any of this crap (dh and I both left an AOG pentecostal church 3 years ago, me for no church and him for the Anglican).

[mwc]

So you think you're a heretic?

 

All because you have your own personal brand of xianity?

 

Sorry. No. It's much worse than that.

 

Congratulations YoYo! You have officially become a TRUE CHRISTIAN!!!

 

mwc

[Centauro]

I once heard a description of fundamentalist christianity as being more about christ than "of" christ or christlike. It made sense to me. Seems to me that is where I see you, and like mwc said, that is more descriptive of a "true christian" than anything. Living the philosophy of christ.

[chefranden]

Oh for God's sake, YoYo of course you belong here. It's the Lion's den! It's where Christians go be eaten for the glory of you know who. Sure there are newbies that say go away, but they just don't how to get their share of the meat yet.

 

Maybe there should be something in the Lions Den FAQ that warns recovering Christians that they might get mad in here.

 

Please don't leave, else I may not have the opportunity to practice being a putz!

 

By the way, smoking is a sin and you will not be raptured if you are taking a drag when the time comes. Heaven is obviously the non-smoking section, just as hell is obviously the smoking section. If you can take a bullet for Jesus, surely you can quit smoking. I know from experience that quitting cold turkey right now would be an act of faith beyond faith, so you wouldn't have to wait for the Left Behind stuff to prove your faith via your works.

[par4dcourse]

Since you got such glowing replies I went back and actually read the OP.

Sinn/not sin blah, blah, jebus, blah blah, rapture, flying people, blah.

Total waste of 10 minutes, and I've got time to kill.

No comment on the rest? What should I expect form you par4dcourse, you are one of the few that inspired it.

 

*checks site masthead*

Yep. Just as I suspected. This is still EX-c., not xian bitches about an ex.com, or my wonderful book about flying people.com.

[Abiyoyo]

 

 

By the way, smoking is a sin and you will not be raptured if you are taking a drag when the time comes. Heaven is obviously the non-smoking section, just as hell is obviously the smoking section. If you can take a bullet for Jesus, surely you can quit smoking. I know from experience that quitting cold turkey right now would be an act of faith beyond faith, so you wouldn't have to wait for the Left Behind stuff to prove your faith via your works.

 

I will be the post-Rapture preacher! God help them all

[Abiyoyo]

 

 

*checks site masthead*

Yep. Just as I suspected. This is still EX-c., not xian bitches about an ex.com, or my wonderful book about flying people.com.

 

Are you still talking Par

[Abiyoyo]

 

 

Congratulations YoYo! You have officially become a TRUE CHRISTIAN!!!

 

mwc

 

 

....that is more descriptive of a "true christian" than anything. Living the philosophy of christ.

 

 

[par4dcourse]

*checks site masthead*

Yep. Just as I suspected. This is still EX-c., not xian bitches about an ex.com, or my wonderful book about flying people.com.

 

Are you still talking Par

 

Long as you keep writing stupid shit that belongs on Oprah or Benny Hinn.

[Ouroboros]

Yoyo,

 

We need you here. And we need you to post everyday. Because, how else will we know if you're raptured and we are proven wrong? You're out litmus test.

 

That aside, I appreciate your honest report from your life. And my view is that, if God does exist, then it's not a matter of believing in him/her/it, and not really about how good a person you've been, but the soul/spirit will be rejoined again with the great spirit. Our sins are only relating to our bodies and physical minds. How can the spirit that God supposedly gave us be full of sin? How can it be punished if it was the body which led it astray? How can an act be sinful towards God, when God is infinite, eternal, majestic, and omni-xyz? If God is all in all, and of all, then sin is just a human concept, and the spirit is eternal. Yes, no, maybe?

[par4dcourse]

I had a terrible argument with my ex-wife.

I say the flying monkeys in Oz were real, she says they were just birds acting like monkeys. I'm so distraught as this messes with my book on the return of the flying monkeys. I'm afraid they won't take me back to Oz with them. Oh dear me.

[Legion]

Abiyoyo, I think you are truly strange and wondrous.

 

Like a turd that won’t flush.

 

 

Just kidding man. I didn’t read all of your OP. But I do think you have a place among us. Who else is going to accept our abuse and make us feel superior?

[Antlerman]

Oh course you're welcome here. I consider you an honorary heretic, and that makes you OK - stinky cigarettes and all, soot boy.

 

BTW, I find that whole looking for the rapture to come to take Christians away from this world, a blatant admission that they are getting nothing from their religion here. Think about it. I'll bet I've got more peace about living then they do, since I see the fullness of life available now. "If only I win the lottery, then I'd be happy!"

 

I'll bet that's why you like us here. We are figuring out how to live life without looking for some miracle to happen.

[Mongo]

...I find that whole looking for the rapture to come to take Christians away from this world, a blatant admission that they are getting nothing from their religion here.

 

Once again... Antlerman pulls the gem of wisdom from the ashes!

 

Mongo

[Mongo]

The conversation started by me telling her about some ideas of the book I'm starting to write, and my views on the tribulation. We were talking as normal, except she was getting fundalized on me, but I just kept talking as normal (we are on good terms, been friends since 18). I wanted to get my point across about the tribulation subject and started injecting questions.

 

I'm glad someone here is getting along with their fundy wife!!!

 

I gather from what you wrote that the book is largely if not entirely about the tribulation (and rapture) which you believe in and is yet to come.

 

And this to some degree confuses me. Here is what I'm trying to piece together...

 

You describe your wife as fundamentalist and I trust your assessment. I gather though you don't consider yourself fundamentalist. Some evidence...

 

We all despise the ways and the lack of understanding from the same fundamentalist that say we are going to hell. Well, don't worry, they tell me that I am hellbound as well, or a false prophet, or demon possessed (in that angel prancing in the night kind of way), blasphemous for not believing that the Bible is the authoritative Word^TM from God, divinely written by God, making it the literal laws and bylaws of God, or that I do not 'act' like a Christian.

 

And perhaps you consider your personal habits to be some measure of evidence? A version of "I smoke and sometimes drink" and quick to add, not to excess "...therefore I'm not a fundamentalist but almost as good as one".

 

You call yourself a heretic and I'll confess to seeing evidence of that so that is not confusing.

 

But maybe your a quasi-fundamentalist heretic? A religious mut? Part fundamentalist (repture theology) and part heretic (virtual excommunication from True Believers) and part liberal(smoker and drinker - tisk tisk)?

 

Its the rapture theology that confuses me. I have come to understand that dispensationalism and the rapture theology it generates (pre-trib, mid-trib and post-trib) hinges on a literal interpretation of the bible. If one doesn't take the bible literally, it then may be used in some verison of moral story or teaching but not as a prophecy that will actually come to pass some day.

 

And maybe what I'm wondering is... what makes you so different from your wife?

 

You both has some different views but don't you both derrive alot of your world view from the same book?

 

Mongo

[Abiyoyo]

 

 

And maybe what I'm wondering is... what makes you so different from your wife?

 

You both has some different views but don't you both derrive alot of your world view from the same book?

 

Mongo

 

I am not a fundamentalist Mongo. That is the difference. I believe if the rapture comes tomorrow, I will still be here because of my sin in my life. She, and most other Christians believe that people that are current believers in Christ, will be raptured.

 

Alot of people think that when the rapture happens, that's it, those left are to be tortured because they are Satan's now.

 

I disagree with that. I believe not only will there still be people here after the tribulation, but I believe that there will be a great many. Basically the verse in Revelations that points out the great multitude that have come out of the tribulation, most, have subscribed that to the ones that were raptured before the tribulation. I disagree and believe through my research that those are the ones that were tested and came out of the tribulation, in the end.

 

That goes against most fundamental Christian theology. Do you know what a fundamental Christian is Mongo? For starters, they consider the Bible inerrant, or flawless, without error. I do not consider the Bible inerrant. I do however read the Bible, and use simple logic in piecing this or that together.

 

I really am confused how you see me as fundamental, but whatever floats your boat man.

[Mriana]

I have one comment on the smoking. OK so it is an excerpt from a script called "Agnes of God":

 

MARTHA

Does my smoking bother you?

 

MOTHER MIRIAM

No, it reminds me.

 

MARTHA

Would you like one? Huh?

 

MOTHER MIRIAM

I'd love one.

 

Martha hands her a cigarette and lights it for her. Mother Miriam coughs a lot. Martha pats her on the back.

 

MOTHER MIRIAM

I'm out of prac...

(cough)

... practice.

(cough)

 

MARTHA

All right?

 

MOTHER MIRIAM

Fine thanks...

 

MARTHA

Do you suppose the saints would have

smoked if tobacco had been popular

back then?

 

MOTHER MIRIAM

Undoubtedly. Not the ascetics of course

but, well Saint Thomas More...

 

MARTHA

(chuckles)

Long, thin and filtered.

 

MOTHER MIRIAM

Saint Ignatius would smoke cigars and

stub them out on the soles of his bare

feet.

(they roar with laughter)

And of course (distorted)

 

MARTHA

Hand rolled.

 

MOTHER MIRIAM

Even Christ would partake socially.

 

MARTHA

Saint Peter?

 

MOTHER MIRIAM

Pipe!

 

MARTHA

Right...

 

MOTHER MIRIAM

Mary Magdelen?

 

MARTHA

(imitating)

Oh, you've come a long way baby.

 

MOTHER MIRIAM

And Saint John would chew tobacco.

 

More laughter, then the moment because more serious.

 

MARTHA

Right.

(a pause)

What do you suppose today's saints

are smoking?

 

MOTHER MIRIAM

There are no saints today. Good people

yes, but extraordinarily good people...

those I'm afraid we are sorely lacking.