What Is Your Problem With Christianity?

[Ouroboros]

Actually it is valid because it is not exclusively used as a "day". You can read the different meanings of the word yowm here: http://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=H3117&t=KJV

 

Young Earth Creationists are quite adamant in their agreement with you, but I respectfully disagree. The actual scientific evidence leads me to believe that is a time period in a general sense, and the way I personally interpret scripture is to look for the meaning of the text based upon what the text says in the light of all known truth. YECs cite the necessity for yowm to mean day largely because it drives other theological positions that they cling to.

And not to forget, there is never a day or a night on a rotating planet. Days and nights only occur on specific locations on the sphere, and Genesis doesn't give proper account for where this location would be, or even hinting that this is the fact. And there is not day or night in space either.

[monkeygirl]

The word "yom" as used in the Genesis creation story is in the same form as in other scriptures of the old testament where it clearly means a regular day, including other scriptures in Genesis.

 

That argument by old earth creationist use is not valid.

 

Actually it is valid because it is not exclusively used as a "day". You can read the different meanings of the word yowm here: http://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=H3117&t=KJV

 

Young Earth Creationists are quite adamant in their agreement with you, but I respectfully disagree. The actual scientific evidence leads me to believe that is a time period in a general sense, and the way I personally interpret scripture is to look for the meaning of the text based upon what the text says in the light of all known truth. YECs cite the necessity for yowm to mean day largely because it drives other theological positions that they cling to.

 

 

so basically you make the text say what you want it to say because science has disproved what it actually says.

even though the word use there does actually mean a day.

 

 

We can determine how yom should be interpreted in Genesis 1:5-2:2 simply by examining the context in which we find the word and then comparing its context with how we see its usage elsewhere in Scripture. By doing this we let Scripture interpret itself. The Hebrew word yom is used 2301 times in the Old Testament. Outside of Genesis 1, yom plus a number (used 410 times) always indicates an ordinary day, i.e., a 24-hour period. The words “evening” and “morning” together (38 times) always indicate an ordinary day. Yom + “evening” or “morning” (23 times) always indicates an ordinary day. Yom + “night” (52 times) always indicates an ordinary day.

 

The context in which the word yom is used in Genesis 1:5-2:2, describing each day as “the evening and the morning,” makes it quite clear that the author of Genesis meant 24-hour periods. The references to “evening” and “morning” make no sense unless they refer to a literal 24-hour day.

[monkeygirl]

Actually it is valid because it is not exclusively used as a "day". You can read the different meanings of the word yowm here: http://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=H3117&t=KJV

 

Young Earth Creationists are quite adamant in their agreement with you, but I respectfully disagree. The actual scientific evidence leads me to believe that is a time period in a general sense, and the way I personally interpret scripture is to look for the meaning of the text based upon what the text says in the light of all known truth. YECs cite the necessity for yowm to mean day largely because it drives other theological positions that they cling to.

And not to forget, there is never a day or a night on a rotating planet. Days and nights only occur on specific locations on the sphere, and Genesis doesn't give proper account for where this location would be, or even hinting that this is the fact. And there is not day or night in space either.

 

 

 

There is no way to make the creations stories found in Genesis work scientifically.

[Wind Walker]

It depends on how you choose to look at it.

[Ouroboros]

It depends on how you choose to look at it.

Only if you read them as allegories.

 

For instance, the human body is not made out of dust.

[Ouroboros]

Unless decay is a different form of order.

 

It's all transformation of states of energy.

 

If all had to be made into order, by an ordered agent, then the agent was ordered to being with. (Since the argument is that order can't come out of chaos.) Why can't it be that the Universe started ordered too? Just wondering.

[Karhoof]

The word "yom" as used in the Genesis creation story is in the same form as in other scriptures of the old testament where it clearly means a regular day, including other scriptures in Genesis.

 

That argument by old earth creationist use is not valid.

 

Actually it is valid because it is not exclusively used as a "day". You can read the different meanings of the word yowm here: http://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=H3117&t=KJV

 

Young Earth Creationists are quite adamant in their agreement with you, but I respectfully disagree. The actual scientific evidence leads me to believe that is a time period in a general sense, and the way I personally interpret scripture is to look for the meaning of the text based upon what the text says in the light of all known truth. YECs cite the necessity for yowm to mean day largely because it drives other theological positions that they cling to.

So.... in order to make this line of reasoning work, god really meant that you should work for 600,000,000 years and then rest for the next 100,000,000 years because they are sanctified and holy?

At exactly which point does the text change from "day means an unspecified amount of time", to a day meaning exactly one day? And please tell me how you know this.

 

 

It depends on how you choose to look at it.

Why doesn't your omnipotent god have all his followers look at it the same way?

Is the texts of the bible written to reveal these "Truths" about god, or are they not?

 

 

There are an awful lot of questions in this thread already, but I'll wait patiently for you to answer mine.

 

Again, thank you in advance for your replies.

[Skankboy]

Never! Order never, never arises spontaneously from a chaotic mix and remains orderly. Order in nature always decays to disorder.

Crystals. Order from chaos, no external guidance needed.

 

Indeed, if you define chaos as "infinite probabilities" then order would just be one of the many possible permutations.

 

In my expierence, order/chaos are really just a matter of scale and perspective.

[Ouroboros]

I'm really a baby in science, but I remember learning in high school science that nature always tends toward entropy (this idea totally stressed me out, btw). Was my teacher wrong?

 

Phanta

No, he was not wrong. It's the law of nature how the different states of chaos v order a system has. The entropy will increase over time in a close system. The chaos loses it's *umph*. A system in the highest order of entropy is at equilibrium and does not have any spontaneous events. But wouldn't that mean it suddenly is more ordered? Chaos to order. So wouldn't it mean we currently have chaos, and we're going toward orders? I'm not sure. I'm confused too now.

 

The question is: is chaos really random? Ever? If nature was deterministic, then even chaos is a form of order. It's just an extremely complex order so we perceive it as random and chaotic. I think the idea of "chaos" v "order" in science is more a matter of how measurable the state is and how well we can (with our limited human capacity) can predict the outcome. If we can't predict it, then it is chaos, but is it really?

[belladonna]

I didn't reject Christianity, Christianity rejected me first. I was taught to believe that homosexuality was a sin and God would send you to hell if you were gay. I was also taught that you could change your sexuality but I later realized I was gay and yet no matter how hard I tried to change, nothing ever worked to change my sexuality. A god that would tortue people for all eternity no matter what the reason is a barbic god not worthy of worship. We consider it barbaric to torture terrorist suspects, so why should God get away with it? Hell isn't the only barbaric action God approves of in the bible and the bible has too many out-dated and outrageous teachings in it to be believed literally. I still like to read the bible as literature, but Christianity as an institution no longer has any meaning for me.

 

Exactly; Christianity, or some of its choice representatives, chose to throw me out because I'm a bastard child. I cannot believe in a God who only has room in his/her heaven for a select group of people, and we can't find out who that group is until we get there. I've lived an extremely tough life, and was put through a version of hell I wouldn't wish on anyone at the hands of a bunch of so called Christians. I have no use for the hypocrisy of it.

 

Giving it up wasn't easy, despite everything I had been through; however, as I said, I can't believe in a God who won't welcome everyone, and I don't believe such a god exists.

 

I was reading a very interesting thread on another forum about how "The Church" should treat divorced people. With only one exception, all of the so-called Christians made a point about stating that Jesus was love, and Jesus would have taken care of the divorced, and so should the members of the church. God is a forgiving and a loving god, and so he would know why. This went on and on, until one poster made a very good point. Actually, he made a couple of really good points.

 

He said first of all, if these people wanted to carry on about how Jesus was love, and how he would have welcomed the divorced into his fold, then obviously, these people hadn't read the Bible they claimed to love so much, because Jesus made his feelings on divorce very clear; in one gospel, he said it is only allowed in the case of adultery, and in the other, it isn't allowed at all. Then he said it was funny that all these same people who were talking about loving and supporting the divorced person were all in opposition to gay marriage, and would pick verses out of the Bible to support their views. He asked why Christians could have it both ways? How can they ignore Jesus' teachings about divorce, yet conveniently remember every Bible verse about homosexuality? You can't have it both ways.

[Shyone]

Never! Order never, never arises spontaneously from a chaotic mix and remains orderly. Order in nature always decays to disorder.

Crystals. Order from chaos, no external guidance needed.

 

Indeed, if you define chaos as "infinite probabilities" then order would just be one of the many possible permutations.

 

In my expierence, order/chaos are really just a matter of scale and perspective.

Let's not forget snowflakes and humans.

[SEEtheScorn]

I can read, understand, speak, write Hebrew quite extensively. I'm not fluent yet, but I know enough from submersion learning to know the language well.

 

Genesis 1-7 is written in a very Archaic form of Hebrew. The passages sometimes don't make sense, the word usage is.. well strange. "Birds of the sky" for example, if you read in the Hebrew says "flying things that fly." Very strange. There's an immense amount of poetic repetition. It's obviously a very old Creation story carried down as such to make it easier to retell.

 

With that being said, although yom almost definitely means day in the context of the sentence, due to the immense poetic license granted by the structure of the passage as a whole, it could, possibly, maybe, be read as an allegorical statement. However, it's very dangerous to just say one piece is allegorical and say the rest of it is literal. That's what we call poor exegesis, for sure. =P

 

A) The Jewish Messiah was never a "GOD" There is only one god according the Jews........ B ) As Human sacrifice is against Torah laws, there is ABSOLUTE zero chance that god would renege on a law that he said would endure even after the earth faded.

 

Thank you Japedo. These pieces of information was exactly what put me over the edge. After discovering this, I knew I could never believe in Christianity ever again. Christianity is one big spit in the face to Judaism.

[Wind Walker]

I want to thank all of you for answering my question, but I don't think that I am really wanted here and I will respect your space. As some of you pointed out I was mistaken in regards to the simplicity that I assigned to your status as ex-Christians, and I can honestly say that I learned a lot here. One of the biggest things I learned here was that almost all of you are very passionate about your displeasure with Christianity for various reasons, and although the conversions are intriguing to me, I don't want to fuel your anger. It was never my intention.

 

Thanks again, and ciao!!!

[par4dcourse]

Dammit, y'all scared the xian away again.

[Guest end3]

Dammit, y'all scared the xian away again.

 

Par4dcourse L!....maybe another will waltz into the "maze o death".

[Japedo]

I want to thank all of you for answering my question, but I don't think that I am really wanted here and I will respect your space. As some of you pointed out I was mistaken in regards to the simplicity that I assigned to your status as ex-Christians, and I can honestly say that I learned a lot here. One of the biggest things I learned here was that almost all of you are very passionate about your displeasure with Christianity for various reasons, and although the conversions are intriguing to me, I don't want to fuel your anger. It was never my intention.

 

Thanks again, and ciao!!!

 

I think people gave you answers you weren't prepared to face, Churches tell you to be in the world and not part of it for reasons such as "facts" one might trip over if they dare look behind the curtain. To lose the members means losing 10% of everyones paychecks. (BTW, Tithing is another thing Xtains get wrong, People who are poor or widowed are NOT suppose to tithe, but I doubt any xtain churches practice that part of the Torah either.)

 

I don't see all that much anger and hostilely here, over all this thread has been respectful, honest and a lot of people took time out of their lives to answer your question being forthright and honest about how we've ended up where we are.

 

Is there bitterness about what the cult has done to us? Absolutely, Some of us wasting years of our lives over nothing but a snipe hunt. In saying that, most of us here are related to Christians and they are a part of our everyday lives. While this is our space, Christians are allowed here, of course in some threads it can get down right nasty.

 

I don't see any Fk Yous, and get bents here, so where you getting this it isn't me it's you diatribe is sort of laughable and not based on the content of at least this thread. I just don't think you were expecting to open the can of worms and hear things that you never quite thought about before and needed a graceful out, of course that is My opinion. You can leave, but as the Xtains love to brag, the seeds have been planted. The more you seek the more you'll find, and in a year maybe two... we might see you back.

 

 

Tootles and thanks for stopping by, come by and visit anytime.

[bdp]

You got an extremely cordial welcome overall - we engaged you. How you got a message that you're not wanted, I just can't see that. I've been a member here for several years and there have been many Christians who have become regulars because they do act respectfully, as you have done, and are accorded respect in return, as you have been. Of course it's your choice in the end but it wouldn't personally upset, offend, or bother me in any way if you stayed. Peace.

[Tabula Rasa]

You got an extremely cordial welcome overall - we engaged you. How you got a message that you're not wanted, I just can't see that. I've been a member here for several years and there have been many Christians who have become regulars because they do act respectfully, as you have done, and are accorded respect in return, as you have been. Of course it's your choice in the end but it wouldn't personally upset, offend, or bother me in any way if you stayed. Peace.

 

I'm wondering if it was my fault. I was the second reply to him, and I basically told him that if Yahweh was real, I'd rather go to hell than bow down to the lousy soul burning tyrant. Aside from that I warned him he'd better have some good arguments because the majority of the people who replied can debunk and discredit most of the usual arguments with ease.

[monkeygirl]

I wish you would stick around.

 

By no means was my deconversion simple. That is a common misconception made by christians. I would never toss all my entire belief system out the door without a great deal of thought, time and research. Its been slowly in the works the last 8 or 9 years. I pushed my doubts aside most of the time but they just kept growing and growing and soon were too much to ignore. Unfortunately it took some big negative events to push the problems with my belief system to the forefront.

 

 

I thought I was building my house on a rock, I was told my whole life that I was but when the shit hit the fan i realize my house was built on sand and everything came crumbling down. I was a christian for 22 years (from age 6) I bought into it completely growing up, my life was about Jesus. If you sense any bitterness and anger from us, its not at you, I'm sure just like me people are just bitter about the time they wasted, the lies they bought into and the foundation they had built there life on being utterly and completely absurd.

[Karhoof]

Thanks again, and ciao!!!

 

Two days?! That's it?!?

 

Now I'll never know The TRUTH!

[SEEtheScorn]

That is straight disappointing. I was very welcoming, I even encouraged discussion just like the majority of people here.

 

Atheism and intelligent unbelief are too scary I guess. Maybe it's that we can't be won with lectures on Jesus' love and how he died for us, but need something more.

 

Ah well. Have fun wherever you go, I do suppose.

[Deva]

This is disappointing. I thought we were overall polite and showed that we were very willing to discuss things.

 

Not sure what Wind Walker expected.

[Ouroboros]

Bummer. We lost this one in record time. And I think everyone was cordial and nice.

 

He will go home, think things over, and then eventually de-convert too and come back here.

[Wind Walker]

Bummer. We lost this one in record time. And I think everyone was cordial and nice.

 

He will go home, think things over, and then eventually de-convert too and come back here.

 

You all actually believe how you talked to me was nice? Everything I said was dissected and challenged, and when I replied every fact I laid on the table was then again challenged and dissected. The only reason things stayed relatively cool was because I bit my tongue and let it go after just responding to the larger issues. A few of you were absolutely nasty and disrespectful to both me and the God I worship and serve, but at the end of the day it's not why I am leaving. I didn't expect to be treated any different and was not at all surprised by either my treatment here or the self congratulatory reaction after I tried to step out and respect your space, and I wasn't shocked by any aspect of my experience here. It was exactly what I expected in regards to how people talked to me.

 

A few of you were cordial at times, but you have to be on another planet to think that how a guest was treated by the old guard here was anything but rude. Or perhaps you think that that isn't rude and you all are okay with talking to people like that. If so you are welcome to your space and your world, I'm not interested in the least.

 

I came back out of morbid curiosity and it was confirmed. Self congratulatory smugness because a Christian left your little hallow. Please! I left because I got the answers I sought and didn't feel welcome in the least.

 

See you all on the other side

[Neon Genesis]

 

 

You all actually believe how you talked to me was nice? Everything I said was dissected and challenged, and when I replied every fact I laid on the table was then again challenged and dissected.

 

So, having a rational discussion suddenly = insulting and rude? In other words, you didn't really care about the reasons why we left Christianity after all and your only reason here was to get on a soapbox for Jesus. Perhaps you should pluck the shard out of your own eye before you pluck the shards out of our eyes.