Snakefoot Posted November 14, 2009 Share Posted November 14, 2009 ... Using fear to control and manipulate people is not what Jesus instructed His followers to do to spread the good news. In fact it was made clear to them (the disciples) that the road would be difficult. They weren't called to spread the gospel by whatever means necessary, but by loving God and man with reckless abandon. In fact they did what they were told to do, and almost all of them died as a result of refusing to deviate from what Jesus had taught them. Yes the church failed and failed miserably over time, but it has also thrived wherever the faith has been practiced correctly. I am one of those people who try my best to practice what I am told in scripture to practice by Jesus. That means that I sometimes do things others don't always agree with, but I don't care what other people think. I know what I am supposed to do, and I try my best to do it. Almost, thou persuadest me to become a xtian (again). Close, but no cigar. However, if more churches/xtians subscribed to your philosophy, I think there might be fewer ex-xtians and a better world. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Japedo Posted November 14, 2009 Share Posted November 14, 2009 Why, don't you people know... "Oh it won't be old Buddah, that's sittin' on the throne "And it won't be old Muhammed, that's callin' us home "And it won't be Hari Krishna, that plays that trumpet tune "And we're going to see the son, not reverend Moon." OMG Tiff Shuttlesworth (Sp?) used to sing that song. I know that song. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shyone Posted November 14, 2009 Share Posted November 14, 2009 ... Using fear to control and manipulate people is not what Jesus instructed His followers to do to spread the good news. In fact it was made clear to them (the disciples) that the road would be difficult. They weren't called to spread the gospel by whatever means necessary, but by loving God and man with reckless abandon. In fact they did what they were told to do, and almost all of them died as a result of refusing to deviate from what Jesus had taught them. Yes the church failed and failed miserably over time, but it has also thrived wherever the faith has been practiced correctly. I am one of those people who try my best to practice what I am told in scripture to practice by Jesus. That means that I sometimes do things others don't always agree with, but I don't care what other people think. I know what I am supposed to do, and I try my best to do it. Almost, thou persuadest me to become a xtian (again). Close, but no cigar. However, if more churches/xtians subscribed to your philosophy, I think there might be fewer ex-xtians and a better world. I think you're right. I also think that, once you begin to realize the limitations of the Bible (and the OT in particular) and form decisions independent of what is in the Bible, then you are not far from being an agnostic - or a Deist. Morality comes from teaching, experience, empathy and also law (to a lesser extent). Finding principles that you can live by, and rejecting those principles that are worthy of rejection and immoral, makes you a better person, but also a "freethinker" in at least some sense of the term. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snakefoot Posted November 14, 2009 Share Posted November 14, 2009 ...once you begin to realize the limitations of the Bible (and the OT in particular) and form decisions independent of what is in the Bible, then you are not far from being an agnostic - or a Deist. Morality comes from teaching, experience, empathy and also law (to a lesser extent). Finding principles that you can live by, and rejecting those principles that are worthy of rejection and immoral, makes you a better person, but also a "freethinker" in at least some sense of the term. Almost simultaneously with you posting that, I was having a conversation with my granddaughter-in-law, wherein I professed that after I abandoned trying to force myself into the mould of xtianity, I became a better person. Pretty damned cool, that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shyone Posted November 14, 2009 Share Posted November 14, 2009 Almost simultaneously with you posting that, I was having a conversation with my granddaughter-in-law, wherein I professed that after I abandoned trying to force myself into the mould of xtianity, I became a better person. Pretty damned cool, that. It's the truth. Or "a truth" that we have discovered on our individual journeys. No capital "T" truth, but having reasons for being good allows you to truly consider the ethics in situations. Preprogrammed answers fall flat when the circumstances are not even tangentially considered in the Bible. Cloning is an example. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snakefoot Posted November 14, 2009 Share Posted November 14, 2009 Almost simultaneously with you posting that, I was having a conversation with my granddaughter-in-law, wherein I professed that after I abandoned trying to force myself into the mould of xtianity, I became a better person. Pretty damned cool, that. It's the truth. Or "a truth" that we have discovered on our individual journeys. No capital "T" truth, but having reasons for being good allows you to truly consider the ethics in situations. Preprogrammed answers fall flat when the circumstances are not even tangentially considered in the Bible. Cloning is an example. As is abortion, fetal stem cells, blood/marrow transfusions (jehova's witnesses), gender reassignment surgery...hell, even psychiatry--"the Devil's work." I can think of no other paradigm that labels medical science "sin" and somehow an "abomination to gawd." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neon Genesis Posted November 14, 2009 Share Posted November 14, 2009 Isn't it kind of dishonest though for Wind Walker to say they don't believe in hell which misleads people into thinking they're a progressive Christian only to turn around and admit later they believe in a temporary hell yet that's still a hell they believe in? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shyone Posted November 14, 2009 Share Posted November 14, 2009 Isn't it kind of dishonest though for Wind Walker to say they don't believe in hell which misleads people into thinking they're a progressive Christian only to turn around and admit later they believe in a temporary hell yet that's still a hell they believe in? Many Christians reject the concept of hell because it is contrary to our ideas of justice and mercy, and it goes against the commonly accepted description of God. That much makes sense in a way. They should look a little harder and see that if God is a middle-eastern wannabe tyranical monster, then God is no more real than Baal or Marduk, and building Christianity on top of a pile of shit makes Christianity stink just as bad. For those that just can't reject it, however, it makes them feel better, much like Christian apologetics. It allows them to keep the illusion of a merciful all powerful protector that gives out heaven-candy and never "tricks." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neon Genesis Posted November 14, 2009 Share Posted November 14, 2009 I don't have a problem with Christians who actually are universalists. I just get annoyed with Christians who say they don't believe in hell when they really do believe in hell, they just believe in hell + purgatory. You either believe in hell or not but believing in hell + purgatory is not the same as saying you don't believe in hell. You're just believing in a different kind of hell than what most hell believers do and I think it's dishonest for them to say they don't believe it when they actually do. Basically, they're confusing believing in a variation of hell with not believing it at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ramen666 Posted November 14, 2009 Share Posted November 14, 2009 My problems are the following 1. The Bible and it's portrayal in church compared to what it actually says. God does ok murder of innocent people. 2. Everything you do is in guilt, you are basically not supposed to have in pleasure everything is a sin (that is if you actually read the Bible and not cherry pick) 3. Wars, are started because of religion. Christians did terrible things to people because they did not believe. 4. No thinking for yourself, organizations/the church tell you how to live, you should choose that not the church. 5. In politics the constant shoving of their morals on everyone else. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
khdetw Posted November 15, 2009 Share Posted November 15, 2009 Wow, lot of replies!!! Paul wrote that the Christian faith was of no value if the resurrection did not happen. Regardless of what Paul wrote or how its interpreted, whether he rose from the dead or not has no bearing whatsoever on the wisdom of Christ's teachings although it exemplifies the way the cult mentality of Fundamentalist Christianity coerces acceptance of things that are clearly mythical as facts (even at the expense of real facts). FWIW Since leaving I'm seeing lots more value in Christ's teachings than I could see then. The simple wisdom he presented was obscured by the absurdities that had to be accepted. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ouroboros Posted November 15, 2009 Share Posted November 15, 2009 Jesus wasn't first to be resurrected either. So Christians, what's the big deal? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vendredie Posted November 15, 2009 Share Posted November 15, 2009 The history of te church and learning everything I had never been taught. It was also the lack of agreement on, like, everything. Nicene Creed comes to mind, more so than gay marriage/abortion/prayer in school/evolution. That just did it in. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deva Posted November 15, 2009 Share Posted November 15, 2009 Jesus wasn't first to be resurrected either. So Christians, what's the big deal? Yeah Hans, this is something Caleb (in another thread) thought we should get so impressed about. Like it has some huge significance and we had to do something with this information RIGHT NOW. I say, who cares? Yes, let's hear it Christians. What is the big deal? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shyone Posted November 15, 2009 Share Posted November 15, 2009 Jesus wasn't first to be resurrected either. So Christians, what's the big deal? Yeah Hans, this is something Caleb (in another thread) thought we should get so impressed about. Like it has some huge significance and we had to do something with this information RIGHT NOW. I say, who cares? Yes, let's hear it Christians. What is the big deal? As an Ex-Christian, I think I know the answer. The difference is that Jesus is supposed to have gone to Heaven (who knows where all those other people went - Lazarus is either dead or still walking around). And he is sittething on His own right hand. Does that give a clearer mental picture? I tried it, but my right hand went numb. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
★ Citsonga ★ Posted November 15, 2009 Share Posted November 15, 2009 I tried it, but my right hand went numb. Just switch to your left hand. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snakefoot Posted November 15, 2009 Share Posted November 15, 2009 As an Ex-Christian, I think I know the answer. The difference is that Jesus is supposed to have gone to Heaven (who knows where all those other people went - Lazarus is either dead or still walking around). And he is sittething on His own right hand. Does that give a clearer mental picture? I tried it, but my right hand went numb. Apologists argue that Lazarus was not resurrected but resuscitated. Or maybe reanimated. Lots of zombies in the holey babble. As someone else already posited (cannot recall who/where), if heaven is a spiritual realm, how does a corporeal body exist there? Are the corporeal bodies of Jeebus, Lazarus, Enoch, and Elija in heaven? Did they shed them on some cloud en route? Do they have to wear an Encounter Suit like Ambassador Kosh in Babylon 5? And if The Kingdom is a spiritual thing, what's up with all the body obsession? Sex, resurrection, and dietary issues aside, what was the big deal about Moses' dead carcass that Gabriel and Satan argued over possession of it? The weirdness, it grows. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Checkmate Posted November 15, 2009 Share Posted November 15, 2009 Hail and farewell, Wind Walker. I haven't read this entire thread (gave up somewhere on page one) because A) I despise arguing/discussing religion and B ) your query to US is asinine on it's face. What is OUR problem with Christianity? What is YOUR problem with it? You've already admitted to being a non-conventional Christian. You say that you've found fault with some or even a lot of the church doctrine and practices. Which means that YOU already know that your religion sucks the big one. It's so heinous that YOU have rejected the "conventional" church and have chosen to create your own reality. Something that billions of Christians worldwide have done before you. Don't waste my time arguing this point. If your "conventional" religion was SO freaking wonderful, then why go shopping for something "better"? The fact of the matter is that we've rejected your religion for the same reasons YOU have. The only difference is that WE have gone one step further and courageously rejected it ALL as false. We aren't cherry-picking and deceiving ourselves as you're so fond of doing. You know as well as we, that there is no GOOD reason for believing absolute nonsense. You've already rejected all other religious beliefs for the EXACT same reasons we have rejected yours. So please, do spare us the "I'm so curious" routine. It has become ever so tedious. Okay. I've had my mini-rant. You may all continue wasting your precious time with this drivel. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mriana Posted November 16, 2009 Share Posted November 16, 2009 As an Ex-Christian, I think I know the answer. The difference is that Jesus is supposed to have gone to Heaven (who knows where all those other people went - Lazarus is either dead or still walking around). And he is sittething on His own right hand. Does that give a clearer mental picture? I tried it, but my right hand went numb. Apologists argue that Lazarus was not resurrected but resuscitated. Or maybe reanimated. Lots of zombies in the holey babble. As someone else already posited (cannot recall who/where), if heaven is a spiritual realm, how does a corporeal body exist there? Are the corporeal bodies of Jeebus, Lazarus, Enoch, and Elija in heaven? Did they shed them on some cloud en route? Do they have to wear an Encounter Suit like Ambassador Kosh in Babylon 5? And if The Kingdom is a spiritual thing, what's up with all the body obsession? Sex, resurrection, and dietary issues aside, what was the big deal about Moses' dead carcass that Gabriel and Satan argued over possession of it? The weirdness, it grows. And I thought I was bad with all the questions. Ambassador Kosh. That was a good one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NotBlinded Posted November 16, 2009 Share Posted November 16, 2009 Wow, lot of replies!!! Paul wrote that the Christian faith was of no value if the resurrection did not happen. Regardless of what Paul wrote or how its interpreted, whether he rose from the dead or not has no bearing whatsoever on the wisdom of Christ's teachings although it exemplifies the way the cult mentality of Fundamentalist Christianity coerces acceptance of things that are clearly mythical as facts (even at the expense of real facts). FWIW Since leaving I'm seeing lots more value in Christ's teachings than I could see then. The simple wisdom he presented was obscured by the absurdities that had to be accepted. I wholeheartedly agree with you. Well said. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NotBlinded Posted November 16, 2009 Share Posted November 16, 2009 Jesus wasn't first to be resurrected either. So Christians, what's the big deal? Yeah Hans, this is something Caleb (in another thread) thought we should get so impressed about. Like it has some huge significance and we had to do something with this information RIGHT NOW. I say, who cares? Yes, let's hear it Christians. What is the big deal? LNC also does this. He uses the Cosmological argument to prove a diety then he uses the resurrection to prove that this deity is the biblical one. Sick I tell ya. Since when does a dead guy coming back to life prove a god belongs to a certain religion? I mean, could God not do many more feats in all religions? God, "Damn it all to hell! I showed them that I can raise the dead and they go around as if they own me! I can also make Muhammed spit fire if I wanted too! Fools..." Stuff that sucker in box, seal it and sit on it...never to let it out. And they say mankind has no power over God! HA! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neon Genesis Posted November 17, 2009 Share Posted November 17, 2009 Since when does a dead guy coming back to life prove a god belongs to a certain religion? I mean, could God not do many more feats in all religions? God, "Damn it all to hell! I showed them that I can raise the dead and they go around as if they own me! I can also make Muhammed spit fire if I wanted too! Fools..." Stuff that sucker in box, seal it and sit on it...never to let it out. And they say mankind has no power over God! HA! I'm reminded of this video: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NotBlinded Posted November 17, 2009 Share Posted November 17, 2009 Since when does a dead guy coming back to life prove a god belongs to a certain religion? I mean, could God not do many more feats in all religions? God, "Damn it all to hell! I showed them that I can raise the dead and they go around as if they own me! I can also make Muhammed spit fire if I wanted too! Fools..." Stuff that sucker in box, seal it and sit on it...never to let it out. And they say mankind has no power over God! HA! I'm reminded of this video: Dang it! I'm really going to have to see about getting youtube unblocked up here at work. Darn them anyway! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oddity Posted November 18, 2009 Share Posted November 18, 2009 Did you become an ex-Christian because your understanding (faith) in the resurrection of Christ changed? Or is it because people and institutions have failed for a variety of reasons? It was a little bit of everything, really. I'm not bitter towards any church per se, but did suffer a little unnecessary, probably unintentional, emotional abuse at the hands of Christians. They've been hypocritical, controlling, and sometimes even tried to stifle my individuality. On several occasions I was singled out for ridiculous things like doodling during church (something I did to help concentrate on the sermons; I managed to convince them my drawings were "divinely inspired" and drew things like doves and butterflies and people slaying dragons so they'd leave me alone), or wearing certain articles of clothing (they weren't revealing or offensive; people were just so brainwashed that anything that might represent "evil" in any way, shape, or form - such as skulls, snakes, bats, Disney characters, or black and red outfits - were the work of the devil). However, my problem with Christianity is that it's just wrong in my eyes. It bothers me that a god that says "love one another" would hate homosexuality, that the Bible contains so much misogyny, encourage slavery and slave-beating, etc. I see no reason to literally believe in any god, angel, demon, or devil, want to go to a heaven run by such a vengeful, jealous being, fear burning forever in Hell because I had naughty thoughts or swore a few times between repenting and dying. I think it's ridiculous to feel guilty about enjoying the mythologies of other, older religions - and even guiltier about being far more entertained by those than any Veggie Tales tape or watching Jeebus bleed for two hours. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest amazed Posted November 18, 2009 Share Posted November 18, 2009 Jesus wasn't first to be resurrected either. So Christians, what's the big deal? He was the first to be resurrected by God and never to die again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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