Question For Amazed

[florduh]

Encounters with this one are becoming increasingly like conversing with a stuffed doll. I don't see the point of it anymore.

I have good conversations with my stuffed doll, it tells me things...

Hmmm. Conversations. Is that ALL you do with that doll?

[Japedo]

 

Actually the scriptures tell us its going to get much worse.

 

 

The "Scriptures" say anything you want them to say.

 

The Scriptures tell us to hate our families (NT) and stone our children (OT)

 

The Scriptures tell us whatever we want to hear... that's just the point, there is no absolute with your god or your bybull. Doom and gloom is all you're selling here. You have the audacity to say we're hopeless? You live in complete fear of the end of the world and things going from bad to worse, WTF kind of "HOPE" is it you're selling here anyways? You say one thing but preach another.

 

The entire sin mantra is bullshit. God has committed more "SINS" by his own word then any his mere imperfect humans (whom btw he made that way according to the dogma). If you have any Children I'd like to ask you if you could harshly treat them as your god treats his children.

[Shyone]

Have you ever questioned why your god just sits back and does nothing about this "serious mess we are in"?

He is not sitting back and doing nothing. In many cases he is using those who are committed to him to help. I suspect a lot of people are also getting supernatural help also.

So you admit that there is no diety doing anything. It's all actually being done by humans. WE help the sick, WE feed the poor, WE rescue the captives, WE offer aid to those in need.

 

And, now that you KNOW that atheists are doing this without any divine intervention, you know that divine intervention does not truly exist. If some people are motivated in some part by some eroneous concept of diety (be they Muslim, Hindu, Sikh, or Christian), I will not begrudge them their kind acts. I simply do what is right because it is the right thing to do.

 

You know, one of the worst arguments a Christian as ever come up with, and I do not accuse you of this (yet), is that atheists do good because they are motivated unknowingly by the Holy Sprite. We may have ulterior motives as well, but just not supernatural motivations.

[NotBlinded]

Encounters with this one are becoming increasingly like conversing with a stuffed doll. I don't see the point of it anymore.

I have good conversations with my stuffed doll, it tells me things...

Hans, you're confused...it's your blowup doll that talks to you!

[Ouroboros]

Hans, you're confused...it's your blowup doll that talks to you!

 

I could put so many spins on this but I better not.

[Vigile]

The implications of atheism would not lead to being sinners since such a concept is not part of the worldview. It has no adequate way to explain the evil in the world since we are all meat machines with no purpose or ultimat worth.

 

Once again, atheism doesn't explain anything. Atheism is an answer to the question is/are there a god(s)?

 

That said, humans can explain why there are bad things in the world. While sin is a nonsensical term there are things that obviously benefit humanity and the environment and those things that hurt humanity and the environment. Why some choose to do good and some choose to do bad can be understood in both philosophical and psychological terms; both of which are much too broad to discuss in this thread.

The closes thing i can think of for this we are just animals.

 

Your religious meme gives you a very poor understanding of how the rest of us choose to view the world and life in general. We are all humans and we all, unless we are sociopathic, empathetic and we all, unless sociopathic, experience mores developed through experience of our surrounding culture. In fact most higher animals have a similar experience.

 

I think it's really sad that you view humanity as so utterly corrupt without a sky daddy making them better. I think it's silly that you don't see that those with the sky daddy are not as a whole better than the rest of humanity, but have good, bad, and neutral distributed in the same numbers as the rest of us.

It is true that we are sinners and fallen and deserve condemnation but that is not the end

 

No, it's not true, it's just what your brand of meme believes. It's like a snake oil salesman who creates a malady and then offers up the cure for that created malady.

 

Now what does atheism offer you out of the mess were in?

 

The 'mess' is your imagination. The fact that you believe we are in a 'mess' is a depressing way to go through life. Trust me, I spent almost 25 years struggling with it. If there is one verse in the bible that can truly be turned on its head and thus be made profound it is that without Jesus one is free indeed. I never experienced such peace as I did when I finally came to grips with the fact that this meme of good/evil/need redemption was just a con.

 

You likely think I felt peace because I no longer experienced guilt and could freely sin. You'd be partially correct. Yes, I no longer experienced guilt, but that guilt I suffered was not for sin. The xian meme guilts people for merely being human. It makes our own humanity evil. Some human actions can be said to be evil, but things like lust are merely part of our natural biological makeup and it is good as it promulgates the species; moreover, it is impossible to bury without major, major psychological issues. Xianity, in my estimation is evil for condemning things like this and literally forcing thinking adherents to suffer meaninglessly. I could go on and use other examples, but I'd rather keep this from getting overly long.

[Vigile]

Have you ever questioned why your god just sits back and does nothing about this "serious mess we are in"?

He is not sitting back and doing nothing. In many cases he is using those who are committed to him to help. I suspect a lot of people are also getting supernatural help also.

 

If god is all knowing, all powerful, etc... and chooses to allow someone to be raped, tortured, murdered, etc... how is he not culpable? Didn't you watch the last episode of Seinfeld?

[Vigile]

God can do anything but deal with humans and fix evil. He can't even arrange undeniable proof of his own existence. Pfft. To be God and omnimpotent must suck infinitely big time.

All men who deny he exist are without excuse. He has given his witness in nature and in your heart but you suppress this truth.

 

FYI, when you parrot like this it means you have shut off your brain and are just merely channeling what you have been told like a rote-learned robot. Think man! I'm going to stop engaging you if you don't start putting some real thought into your responses. So far all you have done is proven to be a little christ bot. We know this stuff; better than you do. Give us something fresh that your brain came up with, not what your pastor told you or what the apologetic book you read last week said.

 

I'm not sure why I bother. I'm probably suffering from eternal optimism that at least one of you guys will one day think for yourselves.

[Vigile]

Encounters with this one are becoming increasingly like conversing with a stuffed doll. I don't see the point of it anymore.

 

Yup, just another poor soul who had his brain sucked out with a straw by the men of the cloth.

[Realist]

Encounters with this one are becoming increasingly like conversing with a stuffed doll. I don't see the point of it anymore.

 

Yup, just another poor soul who had his brain sucked out with a straw by the men of the cloth.

 

.... yes, but what's a brain Vigile? Don't most fundies believe and continually talk about feelings and things of the heart? I thought it was the heart that was the brain? LOL!

 

That by the way is just another area where science has trumped christianity and its 2000 year ago belief that the heart was the control system of the human body!

[Midnight-mindwanderings]

I am saying this here in because the other threads are bogged down. I kept reading them though I had to quit responding. A lot of what Amazed has said made me more upset than I should have let it. I'm pregnant so I take offense more easily.

 

Anyhow, I just wanted to be clear that at a rather young age I came to the decision that I would rather go to hell than heaven. I grew up in the Church of Christ (not sure what background Amazed has) and knew the bible very well and all the doctrines of hell. I knew that most of my friends would never be saved and so were condemned. Knowing this, and knowing I could never let them go through it alone and I could never be at peace knowing their torment, I choose hell. I didn't even begin to break down the reasons (or lack thereof) for believing in it in the first place when I decided this. I was a child and believed it because my parents told me it was true. I never tried to force myself to believe it as I aged and the nonsense became clear to me.

 

I am very analytical. I went over the stories in my head trying to make sense of them. I empathized with the Egyptians who lost their children. I found myself standing up for the man who tried to save the ark of the covenant as it seemed to be falling over a cliff, a man whose reward was instant death. I felt sick reading about the rape of the daughter of David by her half brother, and sicker that she begged him to marry her first. I felt surprisingly little about the death of Jesus, as it all seemed like an extravagant show and he had no fear of death, being god, and knowing he would rise again and go right back to heaven. I felt surprisingly strongly about the fate of Judas, whose deed was required for salvation but he could only receive eternal damnation.

 

I started learning about other religions. What were their gods like? What did they believe happened when they died? And why did they believe it? Their answers were at least as good as Christianity's. A good friend of mine is Hindu. I fell in love with that religion and culture. It is the oldest religion in the world by far. It has a way of adapting because its an encompassing religion. I am not saying its perfect or its right, but just comparing it to Christianity I realized it had just as much chance of being correct.

 

I know you have a lot of responses. But if you get nothing else out of this whole experience please allow this to sink in a bit. Many of us chose hell over heaven while we still believed. None of us now believe it is a possibility, but even if it is, we would rather go to hell with the other 90% or so of the human race. Its not because we prefer to sin, its because we simply could not be happy if so many others are suffering. Its a price we are willing to pay for our freedom (though I repeat, we do not believe in it anymore than you believe in Valhalla). I leave you with Invictus by William E Henley.

 

Out of the night that covers me,

Black as the Pit from pole to pole,

I thank whatever gods may be

For my unconquerable soul.

 

In the fell clutch of circumstance

I have not winced nor cried aloud.

Under the bludgeonings of chance

My head is bloody, but unbowed.

 

Beyond this place of wrath and tears

Looms but the Horror of the shade,

And yet the menace of the years

Finds, and shall find, me unafraid.

 

It matters not how strait the gate,

How charged with punishments the scroll.

I am the master of my fate:

I am the captain of my soul.

[oddbird1963]

Midnight-mindwanderings,

 

That was a very moving, thoughtful post!

 

Thanks for posting.

 

And I wish you the best for you and your child!! Congratulations!

[Guest amazed]

God can do anything but deal with humans and fix evil. He can't even arrange undeniable proof of his own existence. Pfft. To be God and omnimpotent must suck infinitely big time.

All men who deny he exist are without excuse. He has given his witness in nature and in your heart but you suppress this truth.

Those who deny the existence of Ahura Mazda are also without an excuse, because his witness and prophet, Zoroaster, spoke the truth about him. And you repressed his testimony.

 

You'll burn in Hell too.

i don't know about Ahura Mazda. Did he reveal himself in history?

[Shyone]

 

i don't know about Ahura Mazda. Did he reveal himself in history?

 

From Wikipedia:

 

From the reign of Cyrus the Great down to Darius III, it was apparently customary for an empty chariot drawn by white horses to accompany the Persian army. According to Herodotus, who first described the practice, this chariot was sacred to "Zeus" who was presumably believed to position himself at the head of the army. (Ahura Mazda was frequently named Zeus by the Greeks; Aristotle refers to Zeus-Oromasdes being opposed by Hades-Aremainius.)

 

The earliest reference to the use of an image to accompany devotion to Ahura Mazda is from "the 39th year of the reign of Artaxerxes Mnemon" (c. 365 BCE) in which a Satrap of Lydia raised a statue (according to the Greek commentator) to "Zeus" the Lawgiver.

 

The worship of Ahura Mazda with accompanying images is known to have occurred during the Arsacid era (250 BCE–226 CE), but by the beginning of the Sassanid period (226–651), the custom appears to have fallen out of favor. A few images from Sassanid times that depict "Ohrmazd", reveal a male figure wearing a high crown.

 

Yes, He "revealed himself in history."

 

The above is an outline. The details of the history of the people, places and events is much more extensive. Maybe you have heard of Cyrus the Great?

[Guest amazed]

I am saying this here in because the other threads are bogged down. I kept reading them though I had to quit responding. A lot of what Amazed has said made me more upset than I should have let it. I'm pregnant so I take offense more easily.

 

Anyhow, I just wanted to be clear that at a rather young age I came to the decision that I would rather go to hell than heaven. I grew up in the Church of Christ (not sure what background Amazed has) and knew the bible very well and all the doctrines of hell. I knew that most of my friends would never be saved and so were condemned. Knowing this, and knowing I could never let them go through it alone and I could never be at peace knowing their torment, I choose hell. I didn't even begin to break down the reasons (or lack thereof) for believing in it in the first place when I decided this. I was a child and believed it because my parents told me it was true. I never tried to force myself to believe it as I aged and the nonsense became clear to me.

 

I am very analytical. I went over the stories in my head trying to make sense of them. I empathized with the Egyptians who lost their children. I found myself standing up for the man who tried to save the ark of the covenant as it seemed to be falling over a cliff, a man whose reward was instant death. I felt sick reading about the rape of the daughter of David by her half brother, and sicker that she begged him to marry her first. I felt surprisingly little about the death of Jesus, as it all seemed like an extravagant show and he had no fear of death, being god, and knowing he would rise again and go right back to heaven. I felt surprisingly strongly about the fate of Judas, whose deed was required for salvation but he could only receive eternal damnation.

 

I started learning about other religions. What were their gods like? What did they believe happened when they died? And why did they believe it? Their answers were at least as good as Christianity's. A good friend of mine is Hindu. I fell in love with that religion and culture. It is the oldest religion in the world by far. It has a way of adapting because its an encompassing religion. I am not saying its perfect or its right, but just comparing it to Christianity I realized it had just as much chance of being correct.

 

I know you have a lot of responses. But if you get nothing else out of this whole experience please allow this to sink in a bit. Many of us chose hell over heaven while we still believed. None of us now believe it is a possibility, but even if it is, we would rather go to hell with the other 90% or so of the human race. Its not because we prefer to sin, its because we simply could not be happy if so many others are suffering. Its a price we are willing to pay for our freedom (though I repeat, we do not believe in it anymore than you believe in Valhalla). I leave you with Invictus by William E Henley.

 

Out of the night that covers me,

Black as the Pit from pole to pole,

I thank whatever gods may be

For my unconquerable soul.

 

In the fell clutch of circumstance

I have not winced nor cried aloud.

Under the bludgeonings of chance

My head is bloody, but unbowed.

 

Beyond this place of wrath and tears

Looms but the Horror of the shade,

And yet the menace of the years

Finds, and shall find, me unafraid.

 

It matters not how strait the gate,

How charged with punishments the scroll.

I am the master of my fate:

I am the captain of my soul.

This is a difficult doctrine. I wish it were not in the Scriptures and the lips of Christ but it is and we have to deal with it. We all have choices to make and no choice is a choice. It is not God' desire to send anyone to hell but to be saved from it. That's why He sent Christ into the world to save us from it. That's how serious He takes this. I don't know how all these issues will be sorted out about loved ones being there. Its a great mystery. I do know that we must do everything we can to avoid it and warn others also. I just don't see how your suffering in hell would be any benefit to anyone else.

I hope and pray you will reconsider this.

[par4dcourse]

It's not "the lips of christ". It's a coddled together 2000 yo collection of fairy tales and myths. You don't give a shit about anything or anyone except extolling the party line. You are one of the main reasons I wouldn't want to be in heaven.

[Guest amazed]

 

i don't know about Ahura Mazda. Did he reveal himself in history?

 

From Wikipedia:

 

From the reign of Cyrus the Great down to Darius III, it was apparently customary for an empty chariot drawn by white horses to accompany the Persian army. According to Herodotus, who first described the practice, this chariot was sacred to "Zeus" who was presumably believed to position himself at the head of the army. (Ahura Mazda was frequently named Zeus by the Greeks; Aristotle refers to Zeus-Oromasdes being opposed by Hades-Aremainius.)

 

The earliest reference to the use of an image to accompany devotion to Ahura Mazda is from "the 39th year of the reign of Artaxerxes Mnemon" (c. 365 BCE) in which a Satrap of Lydia raised a statue (according to the Greek commentator) to "Zeus" the Lawgiver.

 

The worship of Ahura Mazda with accompanying images is known to have occurred during the Arsacid era (250 BCE–226 CE), but by the beginning of the Sassanid period (226–651), the custom appears to have fallen out of favor. A few images from Sassanid times that depict "Ohrmazd", reveal a male figure wearing a high crown.

 

Yes, He "revealed himself in history."

 

The above is an outline. The details of the history of the people, places and events is much more extensive. Maybe you have heard of Cyrus the Great?

All of these other gods though did not have a real presence on earth. As far as i know, Zeus himself did not walk the streets of Athens did he? Did he personally talk to anyone?

I have heard of Cyrus the Great but don't know that much about him.

 

Now compare Zeus or Ahura Mazda with the gospel accounts. I think most people admit that the gospels do have a familarity that we can all relate to. They are not some kind higher-out of this world-fantasy accounts but are actually written in a way that ordinary people live.

[Guest amazed]

It's not "the lips of christ". It's a coddled together 2000 yo collection of fairy tales and myths. You don't give a shit about anything or anyone except extolling the party line. You are one of the main reasons I wouldn't want to be in heaven.

Huh???? Are you saying you prefer to be in a place of darkness and gnashing of teeth than in a place of fullness of joy? I think heaven is big enough that you could probalby avoid seeing me---

[Guest amazed]

God can do anything but deal with humans and fix evil. He can't even arrange undeniable proof of his own existence. Pfft. To be God and omnimpotent must suck infinitely big time.

All men who deny he exist are without excuse. He has given his witness in nature and in your heart but you suppress this truth.

 

FYI, when you parrot like this it means you have shut off your brain and are just merely channeling what you have been told like a rote-learned robot. Think man! I'm going to stop engaging you if you don't start putting some real thought into your responses. So far all you have done is proven to be a little christ bot. We know this stuff; better than you do. Give us something fresh that your brain came up with, not what your pastor told you or what the apologetic book you read last week said.

 

I'm not sure why I bother. I'm probably suffering from eternal optimism that at least one of you guys will one day think for yourselves.

I do think and i believe i'm getting some to think about what they embrace and its consquences. I have used reason, logic, science, history, Scriptue throughout my posts. What i see on the atheist side for the most part are snide remarks.

[Ouroboros]

i don't know about Ahura Mazda. Did he reveal himself in history?

He sure did. And Zoroastrianism exists still today. It's older than Christianity, and most likely older than Judaism. There are traces in Judaism that points to that the early Semites borrowed ideas and even words from the Persian religion.

[par4dcourse]

If it walks like a jebus zombie and talks like a jebus zombie.......

[FiddlingAround]

I do think and i believe i'm getting some to think about what they embrace and its consquences. I have used reason, logic, science, history, Scriptue throughout my posts. What i see on the atheist side for the most part are snide remarks.

 

Amazed, plese don't take this as a snide remark. There is a lot of frustration in it, yes, but if it were only frustration I would keep it to myself. I'm posting because I'm hoping that it will make some difference in your view of the conversation.

 

What do you mean, all you see are snide remarks? There have been dozens and dozens of well-thought-out, careful, considerate posts. By making this statement, you are confirming our growing suspicion that you are not paying attention to what we have to say. Many of these posts you chose to ignore. Many others you respond to only with a Christian cliche. Then you ignore the points we have made and continue asking the same question as though we have not answered at all.

 

So yes, people are getting frustrated, and that is why you are seeing more and more snide remarks.

 

So please, stop responding for a bit and read these threads from the beginning. Try reading to understand instead of just reading to argue back. Maybe then this conversation will go somewhere other than in meaningless, maddening circles.

[Midnight-mindwanderings]

 

This is a difficult doctrine. I wish it were not in the Scriptures and the lips of Christ but it is and we have to deal with it. We all have choices to make and no choice is a choice. It is not God' desire to send anyone to hell but to be saved from it. That's why He sent Christ into the world to save us from it. That's how serious He takes this. I don't know how all these issues will be sorted out about loved ones being there. Its a great mystery. I do know that we must do everything we can to avoid it and warn others also. I just don't see how your suffering in hell would be any benefit to anyone else.

I hope and pray you will reconsider this.

 

I have no compelling reason to do what I can to avoid it. It doesn't exist. The concept of hell is difficult because it goes against all we understand about justice and mercy. It is a contradiction. My suffering in hell would benefit me, because there is no heaven that could save me from the eternal agony of knowing that other people, many of whom I love and all of whom I have empathy for, are burning for eternity. My husband is an atheist, my best friends are pagan, my mom went through hell in Christianity and isn't going back. Just like these people here, and just like you, they have convincing personal reasons to believe what they do.

 

I believe very much similarly to Han Solo. I hear it defined as pantheism, but for the sake of discussion it is congruent to atheism. Its a completely different worldview than Christianity. You cannot think of it in the same terms. It isn't a faith, it isn't a belief its experience and understanding. Its a complete openness to all that is. We are using your term 'God' but it is an entirely different concept. Your god is a person, ours is not. Your god is anthropomorphic and we find that to be an immature and limiting sort of god to believe in. In order to even begin to understand us or any non Christian (especially of the eastern religions) you must figure out how to think about deity in completely different terms and definitions. Have you ever tried a Buddhist meditation? Have you ever grounded and centered? Have you ever opened your mind to fully experience every sensation and not try to figure out its purpose but just let it be? Have you ever managed a trance in which your thoughts and mind reach a place separate from your self and found peace there? If not I am afraid you cannot understand.

 

But if your god really is the god of love, I worship him every minute of every day. If your god really is the god of peace, I have found him and believe with all my heart. My church is the entire world. I am not better than a leaf or a rock or a cat. I am made up of all of these things. As Hans said, we are the universe becoming conscious of itself. We are likely not the only beings that do so. When we die we return to that which gave us life. We die so that others can live, so that the story can continue. Its perfect exactly the way it is.

 

PS: Thank you Oddbird. I have been thinking a lot about these discussions, probably because I have very few people to talk to about these things right now. And thanks for your well wishes. Parenthood has an amazing way of teaching you about life unlike anything else.

[Vigile]

We all have choices to make and no choice is a choice. It is not God' desire to send anyone to hell but to be saved from it. That's why He sent Christ into the world to save us from it

Kissing Hank's Ass

[Vigile]

I do think and i believe i'm getting some to think about what they embrace and its consquences. I have used reason, logic, science, history, Scriptue throughout my posts. What i see on the atheist side for the most part are snide remarks.

 

You have approached this with "how can I prove these guys wrong?" In doing so you have resorted to cliche, apologetic tactics, etc... I was responding to this phrase in particular as it is especially obvious you are just parroting what you have heard (All men who deny he exist are without excuse. He has given his witness in nature and in your heart but you suppress this truth) rather than just using your own words and reasoning.

 

Yes, you have gotten a lot of snide remarks and I'm as guilty as any for doing it, but you honestly haven't give us anything we can take seriously. Any one of us could have given the same and even better arguments when we were xians. We know from hindsight that when we were doing so we were merely repeating what we had been indoctrinated with and not really picking the belief apart and thinking about it. It's hard not to be snide when we don't see you engaging.