Is The Christian God A Personal God?

[Guest end3]

......artful dodger indeed.

 

End,

 

Did I misread what you said? Since you did not complete your quotations, I am not sure where they were supposed to go:

 

Here is what I thought you were saying,

 

And two, I am always amazed when the replys are, "God should sovereignly intervene at this time," when it specifically states that the believers/church are the intervention for famine, etc.

 

 

Here is what you might have been saying:

 

 

And two, I am always amazed when the replys are, "God should sovereignly intervene at this time, when it specifically states that the believers/church are the intervention for famine, etc."

 

 

The first rendering is what I thought you were saying. It read to me like you were saying that "it" (the Bible?) teaches that the church is the intervention for famine in the world. In other words, "Don't expect god to eliminate starving in the world because that is the church's job."

 

If this is what you were saying, then my question about where you get this belief from in the Bible still stands.

 

 

If you meant to express Rendering #2, then for some unclear reason you object to the position that the church is the answer to famine in the world.

 

 

And I must be forthright with you end, it seems like in this post, as well as in others, you tend to deflect and dodge questions that appear to be worthy of answering in a forum like this. And I do find that frustrating. I don't say this to be hurtful or insulting, that's simply my reaction when I see good questions going unanswered.

 

Concerning the answer lying in the first question, "In retrospect, does the fact that we all tell a slightly different salvation tale present itself as evidence for a personal God?" I would say, that depends on how you would answer the question.

 

If you answer "Yes. Each slightly different salvation tale presents itself as evidence for a personal God, I would say, "WRONG." It just means that people have internalized a similar cultural narrative and that no evidence for God is really presented.

 

If you answer 'NO. Each slightly different salvation tale DOES NOT present itself as evidence for a personal God, I would say, "Agreed."

 

No ill intent towards you OB....but it gets frustrating on this end as well. The tale y'all present here is the tale that has been told all along. First God was with them in "provision" in the Garden and the Exodus...the manna. And the Jesus and miracles so people would believe. And today, it is no different. "Give me proof that I can believe". "I don't believe in Provision" "I don't believe in Miracles " "I don't believe in Faith". We are currently in the Faith time.

 

And to the other question. No blade of grass grows the same, no snowflake the same, no raindrop the same, yet we should all share the exact same meaning from each a different perspective? REALLY? REALLY? No atom strikes each blade of grass the same and yet you want each blade to tell the same growth story.

 

Damn it, you people are educated far past most people's capacity, yet severely lacking in some respects.

[Shyone]

Read your people Shyone and Oddbird!

 

Parable about the Samaritan? Our neighbor is anyone that is in need that we pass by regardless of what we think of their heavenly, or earthly status. Helping people is summed up in that parable, with no secret decoder ring needed.

 

And Jesus answering said, A certain man went down from Jerusalem to Jericho, and fell among thieves, which stripped him of his raiment, and wounded him, and departed, leaving him half dead.

31 And by chance there came down a certain priest that way: and when he saw him, he passed by on the other side.

32 And likewise a Levite, when he was at the place, came and looked on him, and passed by on the other side.

33 But a certain Samaritan, as he journeyed, came where he was: and when he saw him, he had compassion on him,

34 And went to him, and bound up his wounds, pouring in oil and wine, and set him on his own beast, and brought him to an inn, and took care of him.

35 And on the morrow when he departed, he took out two pence, and gave them to the host, and said unto him, Take care of him; and whatsoever thou spendest more, when I come again, I will repay thee.

36 Which now of these three, thinkest thou, was neighbour unto him that fell among the thieves?

37 And he said, He that shewed mercy on him. Then said Jesus unto him, Go, and do thou likewise.

My concerns, more than that a church should do good works, relate to the promises that God would intervene - that God would DO something.

 

Oddbird was indeed looking for justification for the church having a responsibility, and I didn't have a bible. People helping people. Some work of god? Even if done by atheists?

 

These were my main concerns:

 

How many promises were made about God providing? Ask and receive. Anything in my name. Old and New testament. It is a major theme throughout the bible....

Clearly the promises were sheer bullshit at the time, and they still are. "God provides"? Even you don't believe the promises of your own religion.

 

 

Why am I having to find these verses that show that God made promises to do things? Does no christian know them? Are the forgotten or ignored? Are you so disappointed or ashamed that your god does nothing after promising so much? Over and over I have said that there are verses that made promises, and you all sat in silence or responded in ways that suggest you know nothing of these verses. These are a few of the verses that promise God's intervention on the part of the petitioner.

 

Jhn 14:13 And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son.

 

Jhn 16:23 And in that day ye shall ask me nothing. Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall ask the Father in my name, he will give [it] you.

 

Mat 16:19 And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.

 

Mar 6:23 And he sware unto her, Whatsoever thou shalt ask of me, I will give [it] thee, unto the half of my kingdom.

 

Mat 21:22 And all things, whatsoever ye shall ask in prayer, believing, ye shall receive.

 

Mar 11:23 For verily I say unto you, That whosoever shall say unto this mountain, Be thou removed, and be thou cast into the sea; and shall not doubt in his heart, but shall believe that those things which he saith shall come to pass; he shall have whatsoever he saith.

[Guest end3]

OK, OB, I will calm myself...

 

About your narrative statement. Sure, it's possible, but I would ask, what other God definitions are out there to compare to?

[oddbird1963]

 

 

But why would an all-powerful, all-benevolent and all-knowing God entrust relief of starvation and suffering to people who obviously cannot get the job done? It is not sufficient to say, "God has a plan, people just don't follow it." That does not relieve the Christian god of responsibility for causing suffering through neglect.

 

Isn't one of the standards of a follower of Christ to feed the poor, have faith, spread the Gospel of Christ?

 

Your asking why God lets people starve, He doesn't. God sends people all over the world to many places to feed and care for the poor. Is that not good enough? Should he come down from his Holy castle and spread food himself to all the afflicted?

 

Wouldn't that deaf the whole purpose of Christ and God Biblically?

 

When in the Bible has God came down from the heavens and fed people?

 

Biblically, God has always worked through people on Earth to provide for others.

 

Yes, God DOES let millions of people starve to death. The evidence: millions of starving, unfed people all over the globe. It's great that people organize and make efforts to alleviate starvation all over the world through various means. But God, if he or she exists, is letting people die.

 

The provision of the church to meet these needs, though noble where the were noble applies and loving where the word loving is accurate , is a colossal failure. The evidence: Scores upon scores of swollen bellies, emaciated eyes and graves freshly dug every single day.

 

If God cared, wouldn't he put that to a stop? If God were able to, wouldn't he exercise his powers to do so? If God knew his church would be such a stupendous failure in that department (remember the dying we have today), wouldn't he have enacted a better plan?

 

No, if there is a God, he is definitely not the God of Christian theology. And there is little indication other than assertions and cleverly told stories that he is a personal God.

 

Should he come down from his Holy castle and spread food himself to all the afflicted?

 

I see no reason why he shouldn't, if that is the solution. Really, you meant this to be a rhetorical question with the implied answer of "NO." Why is that so impossible to ask. He could send squadrons of angels to drop food and medicine and doctors to help. Isn't is Jesus who said, "With God nothing shall be impossible?"

 

Biblically, God has always worked through people on Earth to provide for others.

 

So god is "omni-inflexible?" He cannot see that whatever plan he had is a failure and change the methodology? Or he COULD change it but the Bible says he can't or shouldn't? That sure makes the suffering of innocents (anybody really) worth it.

[oddbird1963]

 

No ill intent towards you OB....but it gets frustrating on this end as well. The tale y'all present here is the tale that has been told all along. First God was with them in "provision" in the Garden and the Exodus...the manna. And the Jesus and miracles so people would believe. And today, it is no different. "Give me proof that I can believe". "I don't believe in Provision" "I don't believe in Miracles " "I don't believe in Faith". We are currently in the Faith time.

 

And to the other question. No blade of grass grows the same, no snowflake the same, no raindrop the same, yet we should all share the exact same meaning from each a different perspective? REALLY? REALLY? No atom strikes each blade of grass the same and yet you want each blade to tell the same growth story.

 

Damn it, you people are educated far past most people's capacity, yet severely lacking in some respects.

 

First, what is wrong with asking for proof? You and generations of Christians before you propose a God that demands that I submit every nook and cranny of my existence to him or face an eternity of suffering and torment. My only hope for eternal life is unquestioning obedience to this deity. You present stories of a paradise and a fall, and journey in the wilderness, and miracles from a traveling rabbi as some sort of proof.

 

Yet, I say, these stories contain nothing that rises to the level of credible evidence. Yet I'm still supposed to muster up some sort of faith in this deity? Sorry, this flimsy framework of tales may have been enough for me to believe back in the "because I said so" days of my childhood. But these explanations just do not fly. There is no reason to have faith in the God of the Bible.

 

Using your blade of grass analogy, it's not that I want each blade of grass to tell the same growth story. I'm saying that each growth story is not evidence of a Great Grass Deity with striking Grassopomorphic traits that created grass in GGD's grassy image.

 

I hope that clears up my intention.

[Abiyoyo]

 

 

 

Why am I having to find these verses that show that God made promises to do things? Does no christian know them? Are the forgotten or ignored? Are you so disappointed or ashamed that your god does nothing after promising so much? Over and over I have said that there are verses that made promises, and you all sat in silence or responded in ways that suggest you know nothing of these verses. These are a few of the verses that promise God's intervention on the part of the petitioner.

 

Jhn 14:13 And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son.

 

Jhn 16:23 And in that day ye shall ask me nothing. Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall ask the Father in my name, he will give [it] you.

 

Mat 16:19 And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.

 

Mar 6:23 And he sware unto her, Whatsoever thou shalt ask of me, I will give [it] thee, unto the half of my kingdom.

 

Mat 21:22 And all things, whatsoever ye shall ask in prayer, believing, ye shall receive.

 

Mar 11:23 For verily I say unto you, That whosoever shall say unto this mountain, Be thou removed, and be thou cast into the sea; and shall not doubt in his heart, but shall believe that those things which he saith shall come to pass; he shall have whatsoever he saith.

 

 

What do you want from God Shyone, that you have not received?

 

Sometimes, the only answer to this question is NOT whether you were a true believer, really saved, church rhetoric; it IS that God lives on a different timestable than us, and if he is all knowing, already knows our inner thoughts, being in which He determines what is granted and what is not granted.

 

Just because God didn't answer a prayer doesn't mean that there is no God; it just means it is still under review.

 

You are here. I am here. We both have had unanswered prayers. We both possibly have had difficulties within the faith of Christianity. I am no better than you, and you are no better than me. We are both here, searching, discussing, thinking, studying, communicating, expressing.

 

I have begged for answer to prayer before, become discouraged, cursed God, then years later, that prayer to be answered after my mind wasn't even thinking about it anymore. But, there are always unanswered prayers to some degree. Life is a journey that doesn't cease. We wake up every day and learn, adapt, express, live.

[Abiyoyo]

 

Yes, God DOES let millions of people starve to death. The evidence: millions of starving, unfed people all over the globe. It's great that people organize and make efforts to alleviate starvation all over the world through various means. But God, if he or she exists, is letting people die.

 

The provision of the church to meet these needs, though noble where the were noble applies and loving where the word loving is accurate , is a colossal failure. The evidence: Scores upon scores of swollen bellies, emaciated eyes and graves freshly dug every single day.

 

If God cared, wouldn't he put that to a stop? If God were able to, wouldn't he exercise his powers to do so? If God knew his church would be such a stupendous failure in that department (remember the dying we have today), wouldn't he have enacted a better plan?

 

No, if there is a God, he is definitely not the God of Christian theology. And there is little indication other than assertions and cleverly told stories that he is a personal God.

 

So, you feel that since many people suffer every day because of the greed, corruption, malicious activities of Third world countries that God should come to Earth and save them.

 

I agree, but, just because he hasn't YET doesn't mean that He is not God. It just means the time for Him to reveal Himself to mankind has not come yet. If He came down and saved them personally, He would have to reveal himself in some way or form. Also, What happens when He saves them??

 

They live, right? They are fed, saved. So, does God stay here, or does He leave?

 

If He stays here and continues to heal people of suffering then those people will be healed, fed, ;then what? they suffer again, He heals them again?

 

Then they start understanding that they have supernatural powers unlike other humans, and become God-like themselves.

 

Then what happens?

 

Now, lets even say that God destroys the people that work corruption in that ara of infliction. Who will reign there as king, president. Someone will surely do it. The point is that life is a continual cycle and what you propose isn't real.

 

Reality is that the cycle will cycle UNTIL God comes to Earth and makes a separation of offenses and powers.

 

Then, there will be no more suffering.

 

But, until then, we have Christ, who told us to help people in suffering.

[oddbird1963]

OK, OB, I will calm myself...

 

About your narrative statement. Sure, it's possible, but I would ask, what other God definitions are out there to compare to?

 

 

There are various God definitions such as Deism where God is not personal, but is essentially a first cause and the origin of objective moral principles.

 

There are the various theological constructions of process theology where God is partly part of this universe , existing on two poles - one of immanence and limitation to this universe and one of transcendence above and beyond this universe.

 

There are theologies which simply make a choice to limit one of the three aspects of God. A professor of mine once said he concluded that God is not "omnipotent" in the classical sense. He is the most powerful being there is, he wants to do good and he knows more than everybody else. He feels bad about people's suffering, but cannot do literally anything that he wants to.

 

But for me, the question is "what evidence do we have for the existence of any god?" In answering this question, I come up with a big fat goose egg.

[Guest end3]

 

No ill intent towards you OB....but it gets frustrating on this end as well. The tale y'all present here is the tale that has been told all along. First God was with them in "provision" in the Garden and the Exodus...the manna. And the Jesus and miracles so people would believe. And today, it is no different. "Give me proof that I can believe". "I don't believe in Provision" "I don't believe in Miracles " "I don't believe in Faith". We are currently in the Faith time.

 

And to the other question. No blade of grass grows the same, no snowflake the same, no raindrop the same, yet we should all share the exact same meaning from each a different perspective? REALLY? REALLY? No atom strikes each blade of grass the same and yet you want each blade to tell the same growth story.

 

Damn it, you people are educated far past most people's capacity, yet severely lacking in some respects.

 

First, what is wrong with asking for proof? You and generations of Christians before you propose a God that demands that I submit every nook and cranny of my existence to him or face an eternity of suffering and torment. My only hope for eternal life is unquestioning obedience to this deity. You present stories of a paradise and a fall, and journey in the wilderness, and miracles from a traveling rabbi as some sort of proof.

 

Yet, I say, these stories contain nothing that rises to the level of credible evidence. Yet I'm still supposed to muster up some sort of faith in this deity? Sorry, this flimsy framework of tales may have been enough for me to believe back in the "because I said so" days of my childhood. But these explanations just do not fly. There is no reason to have faith in the God of the Bible.

 

Using your blade of grass analogy, it's not that I want each blade of grass to tell the same growth story. I'm saying that each growth story is not evidence of a Great Grass Deity with striking Grassopomorphic traits that created grass in GGD's grassy image.

 

I hope that clears up my intention.

 

I would suggest OB that you ask yourself what constitutes adaquate evidence for you to believe in something other than God, and then apply that to God. I can't answer what would be adaquate evidence for your belief. I have my things that that I consider matching with science, my personal experience, how well the story that I subscribe to matches what I see. All those for me add up to sufficient evidence for my continued faith.

 

Sorry for the harshness....a nature I have a difficult time shaking.

[Shyone]

What do you want from God Shyone, that you have not received?

 

Sometimes, the only answer to this question is NOT whether you were a true believer, really saved, church rhetoric; it IS that God lives on a different timestable than us, and if he is all knowing, already knows our inner thoughts, being in which He determines what is granted and what is not granted.

 

Just because God didn't answer a prayer doesn't mean that there is no God; it just means it is still under review.

 

You are here. I am here. We both have had unanswered prayers. We both possibly have had difficulties within the faith of Christianity. I am no better than you, and you are no better than me. We are both here, searching, discussing, thinking, studying, communicating, expressing.

 

I have begged for answer to prayer before, become discouraged, cursed God, then years later, that prayer to be answered after my mind wasn't even thinking about it anymore. But, there are always unanswered prayers to some degree. Life is a journey that doesn't cease. We wake up every day and learn, adapt, express, live.

I know it's confusing when an atheist speaks of what Zeus did or didn't do, but I really don't believe in Zeus or that He lived on Mount Olympus.

 

The promises were made. There are no qualifiers. "I will do whatever you want, but read the fine print... Yes, no, maybe, wait... Actually, just do it yourself and I'll watch..."

 

In the final analysis, He does nothing. People do everything. Everything that gets done, from healing the sick to moving mountains, is done by humans. Call it a church, or a mosque, or an association or a government; it's humans helping humans and no matter how hard you look, that's all you will ever see.

 

Even when people help people, it's hardly as good as it should be. Slow inadequate response, people suffering unbearably and dying.

 

Just because God didn't answer a prayer doesn't mean that there is no God; it just means it is still under review.

 

I would laugh if there weren't already tears in my eyes.

 

Tell god the time for review is over. A late miracle is no miracle for those who have suffered unto death. Just ask Jesus.

[Abiyoyo]

 

 

Tell god the time for review is over. A late miracle is no miracle for those who have suffered unto death. Just ask Jesus.

 

I don't have to tell Him. Death is just sleeping to God. And you can see my response to Odd a few posts back.

[oddbird1963]

So, you feel that since many people suffer every day because of the greed, corruption, malicious activities of Third world countries that God should come to Earth and save them.

"because of . . ?" You added that clause. I think it is enough that people suffer horribly the slow, agonizing, dehumanizing effects of starvation. If you believe in all powerful, all knowing God who has compassion for humans, then you would think he could come up with a solution to the starving to death of millions.

 

Come to Earth? No. He can stay in heaven if he wants to. I didn't place that condition on it. If he wants to show his great and unwavering, endless compassion from heaven, that's fine with me. "Save them?" I don't know what you mean by save. I would say, heal them of the effects of long-term deprivation and see to it that they get a minimum of 2000 calories per day. An all-powerful deity should be able to do that with one galaxy cluster tied behind his back.

 

I agree, but, just because he hasn't YET doesn't mean that He is not God. It just means the time for Him to reveal Himself to mankind has not come yet. If He came down and saved them personally, He would have to reveal himself in some way or form. Also, What happens when He saves them??

 

Yet he allows poor, helpless people (including children) to waste painfully away while he readies himself in his dressing room until just the right time to make his appearance. Plus, like I said, it's okay with me if he wants to stay where he is. It seem, Abiyoyo, that you think I'm dreaming up some sort of second advent, end of the world scenario. I just want people who are starving at this very moment to get the help they need.

 

The church has failed to provide. And , really, if God were compassionate, would he let those babies waste away? What's it called when people have the means and proximity to help? Depraved indifference? What is a God who is All Powerful and All Knowing yet will not help out the little babies, school age children and poor peasants who just want to go to bed without the "rat of hunger" gnawing away at them from the inside?

 

They live, right? They are fed, saved. So, does God stay here, or does He leave?

 

Once again, you are caught up in location. God can do what he wants to do. My only concern is that he do something about starvation today.

 

If He stays here and continues to heal people of suffering then those people will be healed, fed, ;then what? they suffer again, He heals them again?

 

Then they start understanding that they have supernatural powers unlike other humans, and become God-like themselves.

 

Then what happens?

 

 

Why don't we just have him try it and see what happens? How many multiple generations of starvation, disease, deprivation and subjugation of the poor have we had? We already know what starvation , disease and opression looks like.

 

Let's try one or two generations of God actually visibly doing something about a real problem we have today.

 

We can talk later about how it turned out later.

 

Meanwhile, the children are starving. The poor can't provide the basic nutritional requirements for themselves. Where is God? If he doesn't have a bowl of oatmeal with him , who needs him?

 

Now, lets even say that God destroys the people that work corruption in that ara of infliction. Who will reign there as king, president. Someone will surely do it. The point is that life is a continual cycle and what you propose isn't real.

 

Reality is that the cycle will cycle UNTIL God comes to Earth and makes a separation of offenses and powers.

 

Then, there will be no more suffering.

No, Abiyoyo.

 

You propose a God that is omnipotent, omniscient and benevolent. Yet, he doesn't act at all like such a God. The starving are still with us. Who is proposing something that is not real?

 

But, until then, we have Christ, who told us to help people in suffering.

 

Do you really need Christ to tell you to help people in suffering? Isn't good old human empathy enough to put that into motion? That is the most unnecessary, uninspired insight in all of human religion.

 

Humanity: People are suffering and dying here!

 

GOD: You help them.

 

Humanity: Duh!

[oddbird1963]

 

Using your blade of grass analogy, it's not that I want each blade of grass to tell the same growth story. I'm saying that each growth story is not evidence of a Great Grass Deity with striking Grassopomorphic traits that created grass in GGD's grassy image.

 

I hope that clears up my intention.

 

I would suggest OB that you ask yourself what constitutes adaquate evidence for you to believe in something other than God, and then apply that to God. I can't answer what would be adaquate evidence for your belief. I have my things that that I consider matching with science, my personal experience, how well the story that I subscribe to matches what I see. All those for me add up to sufficient evidence for my continued faith.

 

Sorry for the harshness....a nature I have a difficult time shaking.

 

Harshness? I don't mind harshness as long as the issue being discussed is actually being discussed.

 

I have asked myself those very questions. Observability, falsifiability and repeatability are three hallmarks for standards of evidence. For historical issues, corroboration and documentation are important. I don't think the assertions of Christianity meet any of these standards when it comes to establishing the existence of God. After all, you are proposing that we give all that we have and all that we are to an immaterial, invisible being who looks a whole lot like a being that doesn't exist.

 

But I assure you, I have asked that very question.

[Abiyoyo]

 

Humanity: People are suffering and dying here!

 

GOD: You help them.

 

Humanity: Duh!

 

I am thinking outside the box here. What happens next? Can you try to visualize what would happen if these sufferring ones were fed?

 

I will even take it down a notch. Even if God didn't feed them himself and got others to feed them and say God told them too.

 

Would it matter if those people said God told them to feed them? Even if it was announced that the entire make-up for the feeding of these suffering was by people that said God told them to do it, Would it matter?

 

In that scenrio, whether it was organized, ordained, announced, done by God through people, there would still be Skeptics.

 

Back to the supernatural. You say God should do it for a generation or two. What about the people that oppress these people, the criminals that kill these people for their goods they do have, the government that is possibly corrupted.

 

What you say is still fantasy because these people would have to be in a God bubble to not be overwhelmed again by other people.

 

So, to resolve that problem, God would also have to feed these people and protect them from people that want to overturn them and their goods.

 

Before you say He should magically put food in their stomachs just to feed them, think about this for a moment. They are fed, they are well, they look good, strong healthy. Now, the ones that obviously weren't fed as well, yet they aren't suffering, What about them? Won't they begin to follow these others that look good and well even kill them for them to tell how they got so full, well, looking good. Yes, they would.

 

So, back to the bubble, now we have God feeding the suffering, and he HAS to protect them now because of people's intuition. Right?

 

Now, before you assert another fantasy of God could make those people not want to do harm to them; remember, we are as we are here on this planet and God doesn't (obvious) intervene within those situations.

 

 

Here's the point. ALL your points would have to lead back to God coming to Earth and separating suffering from not suffering, etc. Protect them will God powers.

 

Sound familiar? Revelation.

 

You contend that God isn't going fast eough and I contend that trillions of people have suffered for thousands of years and the time is of God's because we are NOT immortal, He would be if God and omniscient.

[Jedah]

Belief in a "personal God" is just a sugarcoated roundabout way of admitting that you SPAG

[Shyone]

I am thinking outside the box here. What happens next? Can you try to visualize what would happen if these sufferring ones were fed?

 

I will even take it down a notch. Even if God didn't feed them himself and got others to feed them and say God told them too.

 

Would it matter if those people said God told them to feed them? Even if it was announced that the entire make-up for the feeding of these suffering was by people that said God told them to do it, Would it matter?

 

In that scenrio, whether it was organized, ordained, announced, done by God through people, there would still be Skeptics.

 

We have pretty high standards, don't we.

 

How about a little loaves and fishes type miracle?

 

How about some "He is only sleeping" kind of miracle. Wouldn't it be miraculous if everyone was pulled out alive from those collapsed buildings? Is that impossible for an omnipotent being?

 

It isn't a question of how much is done by humans or God, it is that everything is done by humans and none by God.

 

If miracles are so hard to recognise as supernatural miracles, isn't it possible that there are no supernatural events occurring? It seems likely that we're on our own here, and there isn't anyone but us to take care of each other.

 

Once we realize this, and that life is precious and death is not just "sleeping", then we can start to support and help one another in earnest, instead of blaming the Hatians for their misfortune and then claiming the relief efforts are all Christian and All because of their God.

[oddbird1963]

 

What you say is still fantasy because these people would have to be in a God bubble to not be overwhelmed again by other people.

You contend that God isn't going fast eough and I contend that trillions of people have suffered for thousands of years and the time is of God's because we are NOT immortal, He would be if God and omniscient.

 

I'm not proposing any scenarios about it except that if there were a Christian God, he would solve the problem of starvation. What you are saying is a fantasy, Abiyoyo. You are using your limited human brain to make it sound reasonable that God , who is supposedly All-Powerful and all-knowing as well as loving and compassionate, would sit by and let children starve. You wouldn't sit by and let a child starve if you could provide food and medical care, would you? God is better than people, isn't he?

 

The contention that the only difference between my alleged scenario and the scenario in Revelation (assuming you are interpreting it correctly) is one of timing is insensitive at best to the magnitude of the problem of starvation. That thousands of years of suffering and starvation is just a pesky little difference, minor in all considerations of the matter, is a mind-boggling attitude.

 

But I say the suffering of people is real and meaningful. And that your God, if he is omniscient and is omnipotent, would be able to figure out a way to alleviate starvation without violating any of his plans that matter. If God actually cared, he would be moved to do something. But he doesn't care. How do I know this? Evidence: millions of starving , suffering people.

 

Of course, I actually believe He does not exist. But reality sure doesn't bear out your contention that the God of Christianity exists.

[Abiyoyo]

 

What you say is still fantasy because these people would have to be in a God bubble to not be overwhelmed again by other people.

You contend that God isn't going fast eough and I contend that trillions of people have suffered for thousands of years and the time is of God's because we are NOT immortal, He would be if God and omniscient.

 

I'm not proposing any scenarios about it except that if there were a Christian God, he would solve the problem of starvation. What you are saying is a fantasy, Abiyoyo. You are using your limited human brain to make it sound reasonable that God , who is supposedly All-Powerful and all-knowing as well as loving and compassionate, would sit by and let children starve. You wouldn't sit by and let a child starve if you could provide food and medical care, would you? God is better than people, isn't he?

 

The contention that the only difference between my alleged scenario and the scenario in Revelation (assuming you are interpreting it correctly) is one of timing is insensitive at best to the magnitude of the problem of starvation. That thousands of years of suffering and starvation is just a pesky little difference, minor in all considerations of the matter, is a mind-boggling attitude.

 

But I say the suffering of people is real and meaningful. And that your God, if he is omniscient and is omnipotent, would be able to figure out a way to alleviate starvation without violating any of his plans that matter. If God actually cared, he would be moved to do something. But he doesn't care. How do I know this? Evidence: millions of starving , suffering people.

 

Of course, I actually believe He does not exist. But reality sure doesn't bear out your contention that the God of Christianity exists.

 

 

Your not getting my point. He IS doing something. May not have been 1000AD, 1500AD or 2012AD, but, the God you are talking about is according to His Son, Christ, supposed to come from the heavens to the Earth, and THEN solve all suffering problems.

 

I am not being fantasy, I am answering question about the God you condemn. If you don't believe in God, then the entire conversation is moot.

 

Reality is this Oddbird, a reality which I don't partake of very much here on these boards much.

 

You will die someday, just as I and everyone else. We are temporal, limited to physical.

 

If I take my life, divide it with how many years since civilization of man, it comes to this.

 

Lets say 6000BC just as a number. I make up less than 1% of total years since civilization as we know it.

 

Now let's say the book is wrong, and the earth is 4 billion plus.

 

It's like .000000001 % of the years on Earth.

 

 

Who are we to declare there is no God?

[oddbird1963]

 

What you say is still fantasy because these people would have to be in a God bubble to not be overwhelmed again by other people.

You contend that God isn't going fast eough and I contend that trillions of people have suffered for thousands of years and the time is of God's because we are NOT immortal, He would be if God and omniscient.

 

I'm not proposing any scenarios about it except that if there were a Christian God, he would solve the problem of starvation. What you are saying is a fantasy, Abiyoyo. You are using your limited human brain to make it sound reasonable that God , who is supposedly All-Powerful and all-knowing as well as loving and compassionate, would sit by and let children starve. You wouldn't sit by and let a child starve if you could provide food and medical care, would you? God is better than people, isn't he?

 

The contention that the only difference between my alleged scenario and the scenario in Revelation (assuming you are interpreting it correctly) is one of timing is insensitive at best to the magnitude of the problem of starvation. That thousands of years of suffering and starvation is just a pesky little difference, minor in all considerations of the matter, is a mind-boggling attitude.

 

But I say the suffering of people is real and meaningful. And that your God, if he is omniscient and is omnipotent, would be able to figure out a way to alleviate starvation without violating any of his plans that matter. If God actually cared, he would be moved to do something. But he doesn't care. How do I know this? Evidence: millions of starving , suffering people.

 

Of course, I actually believe He does not exist. But reality sure doesn't bear out your contention that the God of Christianity exists.

 

 

Your not getting my point. He IS doing something. May not have been 1000AD, 1500AD or 2012AD, but, the God you are talking about is according to His Son, Christ, supposed to come from the heavens to the Earth, and THEN solve all suffering problems.

 

I am not being fantasy, I am answering question about the God you condemn. If you don't believe in God, then the entire conversation is moot.

 

Reality is this Oddbird, a reality which I don't partake of very much here on these boards much.

 

You will die someday, just as I and everyone else. We are temporal, limited to physical.

 

If I take my life, divide it with how many years since civilization of man, it comes to this.

 

Lets say 6000BC just as a number. I make up less than 1% of total years since civilization as we know it.

 

Now let's say the book is wrong, and the earth is 4 billion plus.

 

It's like .000000001 % of the years on Earth.

 

 

Who are we to declare there is no God?

 

To say "God will solve these problems . . . someday" is no different than saying "God could help NOW but he won't." Depraved indifference.

 

Your explanation is inadequate - it is a theological gymnastics game designed to prop up belief in a God. It does not reveal God as a compassionate, powerful and all-knowing deity to say that he is sitting on his thumbs while children starve. It's really quite monstrous.

 

I'm really not condemning God. He doesn't exist - at least there is no evidence to suggest that he does. But even if he did exist, he should be condemned. Why would a God who could solve starvation but chooses not to now NOT be condemned? That is monstrous, depraved indifference.

 

Who am I to declare that there is no God? First of all, my actual position is that there is not sufficient evidence to conclude that there is a God. He may exist, but the evidence does not point to that existence.

 

But to answer your question, I am one of a myriad of people that are being told to submit to God or burn in hell. Give Him everything I have, everything I am and everything I want to be. And,there is no proof. You just have to take him at his word.

 

What a ridiculous position to put people in!

 

My question is, "Who are YOU to say he exists when he won't even show love to dying, dwindling, shriveling starving people?"

[chefranden]

 

This was written by a woman in 1978. Now I know a lot of you will become indignant about the starving and homeless people in the world adn why doesnt God look out for them. To be honest I dont have all the answers to those problems. I think in this situation God was using this as an example to teach this lady about her heart and thinking in terms of lack all that time, and thinking God couldn't provide for her. I dont think this is an argument that God could feed all the starving people in the world if he wanted to. In fact I believe He could and does through the hands of serving and giving people.

 

Would love to hear your thoughts and opinions. I believe God is personal to me and definately speaks to me about the state of my heart in circumstances in my life. When to forgive someone and let go of anger and bitterness. When He brings words of comfort to me in trials, etc..

 

I do. The answer is that there is no god to look out for the homeless and starving.

 

I wonder if God talks to you like he seems to talk to this woman. God never talked to me.

 

I suppose that God could be personal, if a wall can be personal.

 

"This is my personal wall, Wally. I talk to Wally all the time, but Wally never talks back. Yesterday I invited Wally to meet me at the coffee shop, but he stood me up. That's why I look so mad in the picture. The picture shows me being personally mad, but you notice that Wally doesn't care. He's like that."

[Abiyoyo]

 

 

My question is, "Who are YOU to say he exists when he won't even show love to dying, dwindling, shriveling starving people?"

 

Well, we can't say no to worries about anything, even your life, because the whole point of belief in God is an afterlife which involves peace, harmony. The reason we can't say that is because most people that are suffering or not will just jump off a bridge and kill themselves to be satisfied.

 

I see your point, but just want to point out that to God, humanity may be different than the way we perceive it to be because He is immortal.

 

Do you understand my point? I say God sees life and death different and doesn't react because it's not the time for Him to act (or it may be) but in His providence He acts accordingly.

 

You say God should act now, and since He doesn't, and hasn't, he is monstrous.

 

It's just different opinions. I shared why I feel like a all powerful, knowing God wouldn't act in this ;in that it would be the 'coming of God' no matter which way He did it.

 

I say, Come on God. You say, God has taken to long, he is monstrous.

 

[Realist]

Abiyoyo!

 

You say:

 

Who are we to declare there is no God?

 

let's state this another way:

 

Who are YOU to declare there are no GODS?

 

See ... you totally ignore the extent indoctrination has played in making that statement!

[Abiyoyo]

Abiyoyo!

 

You say:

 

Who are we to declare there is no God?

 

let's state this another way:

 

Who are YOU to declare there are no GODS?

 

See ... you totally ignore the extent indoctrination has played in making that statement!

 

 

Because I was alive and did not breathe before I was born and now I breathe Oxygen. That is a divine reason in and of itself.

[chefranden]

Because I was alive and did not breathe before I was born and now I breathe Oxygen. That is a divine reason in and of itself.

 

 

If you can be alive with out oxygen, why do you bother? Breathing that is.

 

Or are you one of those reincarnated guys? Did you used to be Queen of England or a dung beetle in Bangladesh?

[Ouroboros]

I'm God; therefore, he is very personal.