Is The Christian God A Personal God?

[Abiyoyo]

You are deflecting Dagnarus. That is the second time you have asked me about my possessions? Which one of my possessions? My laptop? My car? My clothes? My food? My house? What do you feel I have more than any man could ever have that I should give away???

 

I already said I have what is needed, honestly, I am not a rich person. Yet, again, you ask me the same question and even have the nerve to say that I am deflecting, when you, are the obvious deflector of the questions which had nothing to do with anyone personally on the forums giving away their money, ..unless, you fit that category of having more than one human ever needed

 

Sorry, maybe you aren't deflecting, maybe your just dense. Okay, the point isn't that you morally should give away all your possessions, the point is that you believe in the Christian God, correct?

 

And you believe that Jesus came down from heaven, and either was this God, Was a third of this God, or was a prophet of this God (from memory you don't ascribe to orthodox christianity, so I'm not certain which one you subscribe to), correct?

 

Now in the gospels this Jesus said both "take all your possessions and sell them", correct? He also said

24No man can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon.

 

25Therefore I say unto you, Take no thought for your life, what ye shall eat, or what ye shall drink; nor yet for your body, what ye shall put on. Is not the life more than meat, and the body than raiment?

 

...

 

31Therefore take no thought, saying, What shall we eat? or, What shall we drink? or, Wherewithal shall we be clothed?

 

32(For after all these things do the Gentiles seek:) for your heavenly Father knoweth that ye have need of all these things.

 

33But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you.

 

Or to paraphrase, "don't worry about your material needs, worry about following me, I'll take care of the rest." So then you believe that this is from your God. Therefore you should also be assured that whatever you have no need to worry about your material necessities. You should have the full assurance that if you lose your house, or your food, or your clothes, that God will take care of you. If you were to sell your possessions and give them to the poor God will take care of you, you are worth more than many sparrows. The fact of the matter is that you do not have that assurance, you might be willing to pass of some woman getting free strawberries as a sign of God's working, but you certainly aren't willing to put enough trust into this God to depend on him for your material needs.

 

Don't get me wrong, I don't think you should sell all your possessions and trust in God for all your needs. To do such a thing would be extremely risky as their is no God. In fact historically there have been many people who have actually sold all their possessions and given everything up to serve God, some of them even survived and became famous examples of Christian faith, many more however died and were never really talked about. I personally know of roughly seven who had enough faith to do this in the history of my own church, God saw fit to allow them and their families to die of starvation. Just like he allows his faithful followers in the third world to die of starvation every day, maybe he's still pissed over the Ham incident, oh well, at least a well off american lady got strawberries.

 

 

That's good that you feel a Christian should give up all their possessions. I also assume you use to attend church at some point, be a Christian yourself?

 

Did you tell everyone at church every weekend that they should give up all their possessions, and follow Christ.

 

BTW, there are more attachments than what you said. like, "pick up your cross and follow me". Heck, for that matter, to be a True^TM , every Christian should buy tickets to fly to the 10:40 region and preach the Gospel. Then when they are killed, they will be martyrs.

 

Aren't those that die for Christ held highly? Of course! But, we are not extremist terrorists looking to strap bombs on us in the name of Allah (even though I wouldn't put it past some).

 

So, in a 'take it literal' sense, yes, we should sell all our belongings (which when I felt compelled by this in my life, I did do) , we should pick up our cross and follow Him (our will from God, which I did in my life as well), and then, lastly, should go fly to a oppressive region and be martyred. Haven't quite got to that point yet

 

My point is that the human race is capable of eliminating these afflictions, temporarily, and possibly long term with their own means.

 

YET, a story about God giving a lady some strawberries is debated here as nonsense because God should be worried about more significant things, like the suffering.

 

Who says HE isn't! What proof do you have, story, tale of tales that claims God is absent?

 

Who told you this, ...Haven't you heard!!!, ..."upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it"

 

Church isn';t just the physical embodiment of the church. You do know that right?

 

Everybody is required to do their part, ...since according to the Christ you quote, "our neighbor is

 

36 Which now of these three, thinkest thou, was neighbour unto him that fell among the thieves?

37 And he said, He that shewed mercy on him. Then said Jesus unto him, Go, and do thou likewise.

 

So, my point is that Christian or not, people are responsible for other people, just as many of you have said, "There is no god, just us." You are correct that it is just us to help others, and I contend that their is no God attached to that because of what Christ said about the matter.

[NotBlinded]

Like I said, my answers aren't good enough. God can't just be a powerful deity, He has to live up to the imagination of people, which fails.

Abi,

 

Can you see how what you stated applies to everyone and not just skeptics? This is what you may be saying, I'm not sure. Christians have described God to the last detail and every bit of it has come from people's imaginations.

 

You know, you go into a church with those beautiful stained glass windows portraying Jesus and the disciples. The problem is is that those images block out the light shinning through the window. They put images in people's minds about what God is and that is what is worshiped and held onto because it makes them feel safe to have something to cling to.

 

I tell you what...scrape off those images, which are mental idols, and let the pure light of God shine though. There is no way it can with all the imagery imbedded in the glass no matter how magnificent they are.

So it was from people's imagination that they came up with a form of love that is stronger and so out of this world and different to every agenda and nature of man's heart? I wonder who wanted to make that up? From my perception, when people have their own way, it is usually the facets of a sinful nature and way of living that override any illusion of love. Pure love is laying down our selves for others, and dying to that nature to God. I cant imagine for the life of me why humans would make that up themselves in their own imagination.

Absolutely it is from their own hearts and imaginations. You only see people in a "sinful" kind of way that taints your understanding and that just isn't true. Yes, we all have the ability to do bad, but we also have the ability to do good and to love and care for others. I could go into some Buddhist philosophy of why that is so, but I'll leave it at just saying that it is so.

 

Christianity took the guilt that people feel about the things they do and turned it into a good thing because the more guilty and sorrowful you feel, the better you are in their eyes. They never tell you how good you are because that would defeat their salvation theology. You can't do good in their understanding without God. Even if you believe that, it just isn't true.

 

It is not the nature of people's heart to do bad all the time. How would you feel towards people if you could understand that people are indeed the ones that love like your image of God does? It makes me feel wonderful towards others.

[NotBlinded]

Yes. There does have to be a better way, notblinded. I'll let you know when I've found it if you'll let me know if you find it!

You got it.

[Shyone]

Everybody is required to do their part, ...since according to the Christ you quote, "our neighbor is

 

36 Which now of these three, thinkest thou, was neighbour unto him that fell among the thieves?

37 And he said, He that shewed mercy on him. Then said Jesus unto him, Go, and do thou likewise.

What was that verse about washing feet? I think it ended with another "Go, and do thou likewise" as well.

 

Jhn 13:12 ¶ So after he had washed their feet, and had taken his garments, and was set down again, he said unto them, Know ye what I have done to you?

 

 

Jhn 13:13 Ye call me Master and Lord: and ye say well; for [so] I am.

 

 

Jhn 13:14 If I then, [your] Lord and Master, have washed your feet; ye also ought to wash one another's feet.

 

 

Jhn 13:15 For I have given you an example, that ye should do as I have done to you.

 

I guess he really didn't mean it, or Christians would pay attention to it.

[Abiyoyo]

Everybody is required to do their part, ...since according to the Christ you quote, "our neighbor is

 

36 Which now of these three, thinkest thou, was neighbour unto him that fell among the thieves?

37 And he said, He that shewed mercy on him. Then said Jesus unto him, Go, and do thou likewise.

What was that verse about washing feet? I think it ended with another "Go, and do thou likewise" as well.

 

Jhn 13:12 ¶ So after he had washed their feet, and had taken his garments, and was set down again, he said unto them, Know ye what I have done to you?

 

 

Jhn 13:13 Ye call me Master and Lord: and ye say well; for [so] I am.

 

 

Jhn 13:14 If I then, [your] Lord and Master, have washed your feet; ye also ought to wash one another's feet.

 

 

Jhn 13:15 For I have given you an example, that ye should do as I have done to you.

 

I guess he really didn't mean it, or Christians would pay attention to it.

 

That's the point. ALL the sayings of Christ could be looked at literally, which is why there are some churches that wash each others feet!

 

But, they can be conveyed, ..logically. Like, the whole sell your possessions; can't love God and money, easier for a rich man to enter through the eye of a needle than the kingdom of heaven(which I differ from normal theology and consider this as Christ speaking about entering the kingdom of God within us, Holy Spirit), keep what we need and give the rest to the poor.

 

See, I know you know this Shyone. Judas even caught that literally, as he complained about using to much of the expensive perfume on Christ's feet, and said we could give that to the poor.

 

So, it's not meant to be taken literally. The Jews took what Christ said in literal translations, and were confused. There were meanings for the disciples to aquire, followers then, disciples now, and followers now.

 

He was a prophet.

 

So, what else could be taken from the feet washing saying. The master came to serve, and the servant is not greater than the master. We should serve each other, help each other.

 

Washing of the feet was a common practice then, usually performed by servants.

[Shyone]

So, it's not meant to be taken literally.

 

Like I said, a personal god isn't the OT one or the NT one.

 

I'll bet you could write your own version of the bible. I suspect it would be a lot shorter. and a bit of editing here and there:

 

The 10 Suggestions...

 

WikiBible. That way, if there is a theological dispute, you could edit the bible to make it read the way you think it should read. You could make it so the prophecies all come true, and you could remove that awkward "Emmanuel" and put Jesus in there. Maybe even a couple of New Jesus Prophecies.

 

And you could have Jesus prophecy the Continental Congress and WWII.

 

You're missing a great opportunity here, Abi.

[Vixentrox]

Funny how he knows what Jesus intentions were. Amazing that he knows what is to be taken literally or not.

[Abiyoyo]

So, it's not meant to be taken literally.

 

Like I said, a personal god isn't the OT one or the NT one.

 

I'll bet you could write your own version of the bible. I suspect it would be a lot shorter. and a bit of editing here and there:

 

The 10 Suggestions...

 

WikiBible. That way, if there is a theological dispute, you could edit the bible to make it read the way you think it should read. You could make it so the prophecies all come true, and you could remove that awkward "Emmanuel" and put Jesus in there. Maybe even a couple of New Jesus Prophecies.

 

And you could have Jesus prophecy the Continental Congress and WWII.

 

You're missing a great opportunity here, Abi.

 

Typical skepticism. You know what I am talking about, and you what in what way I mean these sayings are attributed.

 

Seriously, shyone, it is what it is. It has nothing to do with false interpretations or wikibible. It has to do with the theme.

 

What is the theme from Christ?

 

I can't believe you threw out the 'Emmanuel' junk. Okay, you got me, they translated it wrong, interpreted it wrong, added His virgin birth., made Him superman.

 

What's next? The whole book wrong now? These lying scribes, church leaders, these fraudulent pious scribes, leaders, left the verses in there, .. that would make someone very different 2000 years later by simply putting away their pride, and doing for another, or helping who they see needs help, as a great commandment, and changing the world, since as it has been said, WE let the people suffer because there is no God.

 

Like I said earlier, the 'we' part is correct, but that doesn't mean God didn't educate us on the matter.

[Shyone]

 

What's next? The whole book wrong now? These lying scribes, church leaders, these fraudulent pious scribes, leaders, left the verses in there, .. that would make someone very different 2000 years later by simply putting away their pride, and doing for another, or helping who they see needs help, as a great commandment, and changing the world, since as it has been said, WE let the people suffer because there is no God.

 

Like I said earlier, the 'we' part is correct, but that doesn't mean God didn't educate us on the matter.

I'm amazed that you can't see that the bible IS wholly corrupt, although written by well intentioned men. There are a couple of gems, and a lot of bullshit. But there is more written in the Tao Te Ching of worth than the entire new testament.

 

There is no "theme", and no one needs a belief in a fictitious being to be good to another person.

 

You do believe there is a spiritual being of some sort, don't you? I don't even know what you believe.

 

Here's the Bible:

 

1. Myth about how mommy and daddy got here, Magic to support belief in Yahweh.

2. Justification about slaughtering to make it "righteous"

3. Deluded men taking credit for the Egyptians, Assyrians and Babylonians

4. Mystic religious material with no connection to reality.

5. Myth about how Jesus was born.

6. Created events to match "prophecy."

7. Magic to support claims to divinity.

8. Man dies.

9. Mystic religious claims to the impossible with no connection to reality.

 

Lying scribes, church leaders, these fraudulent pious scribes, leaders and the whole rotten crowd has bent you and all humanity into a pretzel.

 

Well, if it hadn't been Jesus, it would have been Mohammed or some bullshit claimant to be the voicebox of God. Some people just have to believe something that isn't real.

[chefranden]

...1. Who says HE isn't! 2. What proof do you have, story, tale of tales that claims God is absent?...

 

1. I do along with somewhere in the neighborhood of 10% of the earth's population. This is kind of a stupid question don't you think, especially after all the years you have spent here. I suppose that you are trying to say, "Who has the authority to say HE isn't?" Well I do.

 

2. Many proofs have been given you, but of course you refuse to acknowledge them. So you would have to tell us what constitutes proof for you. The problem of evil being discussed here is sufficient proof of no Jesus for me. But I have no idea what would be sufficient proof for you, and I just bet you don't either.

 

3. Why don't you prove there is a god, and that this god is your personal god Jesus? I can tell you what would be sufficient proof for me, the end of gratuitous suffering. You should talk that over with your buddy the all powerful Jesus next time you have coffee with him. Meanwhile I'll talk to my personal brick. The first one, the brick or Jesus, to end gratuitous suffering wins the title Almighty Real God of the Universe. This is a fine sort of biblical test, so you needn't fear doing it. We should put a time limit on the test, because well I won't last forever. How about this time next year? Are you up for it? Is Jesus?

 

In fact I'll spot you and Jesus a handicap like Elisha did for the priests of Baal. All Jesus has to do is end gratuitous suffering caused by the earthquake in Haiti, but my brick has all suffering in the whole world. That should be fair. So right then -- this time next year next year if the gratuitous earthquake suffering in Haiti has not ended then Jesus is not a real god. By the same token if gratuitous suffering in the whole world does not end my personal brick is not a real god.

 

Edit: No wiggling out of this by saying you can't test God of course you can. As it is written, "Taste and see that the LORD is good". If you are unwilling to make the test and abide by its outcome as I am, I will be forced to conclude that you don't believe in Jesus any more than I do.

[par4dcourse]

Well spoken, Shyone, and I agree wholeheartedly.

Not fair, Chef. I can see your brick.

[florduh]

I want my own personal brick.

[Abiyoyo]

 

 

Edit: No wiggling out of this by saying you can't test God of course you can. As it is written, "Taste and see that the LORD is good". If you are unwilling to make the test and abide by its outcome as I am, I will be forced to conclude that you don't believe in Jesus any more than I do.

 

"Thy will be done, on Earth, as it is in heaven"

 

I follow Gods will Chef, and I am a sinner, not worthy of such a test.

 

But even if I did have these powers to go over and end suffering throughout the world, I couldn't at this time, agree?

[dagnarus]

That's good that you feel a Christian should give up all their possessions. I also assume you use to attend church at some point, be a Christian yourself?

 

Did you tell everyone at church every weekend that they should give up all their possessions, and follow Christ.

 

No natural selection says that those Christians who actually take Jesus's teachings seriously will die.

 

BTW, there are more attachments than what you said. like, "pick up your cross and follow me". Heck, for that matter, to be a True^TM , every Christian should buy tickets to fly to the 10:40 region and preach the Gospel. Then when they are killed, they will be martyrs.

 

Good idea.

 

Aren't those that die for Christ held highly? Of course! But, we are not extremist terrorists looking to strap bombs on us in the name of Allah (even though I wouldn't put it past some).

 

So, in a 'take it literal' sense, yes, we should sell all our belongings (which when I felt compelled by this in my life, I did do) , we should pick up our cross and follow Him (our will from God, which I did in my life as well), and then, lastly, should go fly to a oppressive region and be martyred. Haven't quite got to that point yet

 

My point is that the human race is capable of eliminating these afflictions, temporarily, and possibly long term with their own means.

 

OK, What about when the human race was not capable of eliminating these afflictions, what was God's reason for not interfering then? I mean at the very least he could have given the scientific knowledge we needed through the bible? Does God hate medieval peasants?

 

YET, a story about God giving a lady some strawberries is debated here as nonsense because God should be worried about more significant things, like the suffering.

 

I'm sorry but the idea that God decided to step in to give a woman strawberries where secular development alone makes that need reasonably easy to fulfill without any outside intervention from God, while at the same time for whatever reason he feels no need to say teach his followers in the third world that if they just trust in him that he will be faithful to provide all they need so that they won't starve and their children wont grow up with brain damage, caused by lack of nutrition, (he said his followers need not care for their material needs remember, he would make certain that all these things would be added to them) Is quite frankly, inane.

 

Who says HE isn't! What proof do you have, story, tale of tales that claims God is absent?

 

Who told you this, ...Haven't you heard!!!, ..."upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it"

 

Church isn';t just the physical embodiment of the church. You do know that right?

 

Actually the word church is the translation of "Ekklesia", which means called out assembly, (I think it's original secular meaning was related to politics). Anyway the word in the original Greek doesn't even give itself to meaning a building. Which I find rather interesting, as if I were to interpret the word church as meaning say, the Vatican, well it's still standing, if I were to use it to mean God's followers however, well the gates of hades have been having a field day with them haven't they, Pat Robertson, TV evangelists, Catholic sex scandals, Inquisitions, Greed, Corruption, even your arguing for the fact that the church is the one which has failed to end world hunger. 2000 years and what has God built, His message has apparently been corrupted by the catholics to shore up their power base, not to mention every other tv evangelist out to make a buck, and christian believers like you aren't even certain whether the current bible is actually God's speaking, or whether it might come from some of the old heretical books which have been recently dug up.

 

Everybody is required to do their part, ...since according to the Christ you quote, "our neighbor is

 

36 Which now of these three, thinkest thou, was neighbour unto him that fell among the thieves?

37 And he said, He that shewed mercy on him. Then said Jesus unto him, Go, and do thou likewise.

 

So, my point is that Christian or not, people are responsible for other people, just as many of you have said, "There is no god, just us." You are correct that it is just us to help others, and I contend that their is no God attached to that because of what Christ said about the matter.

 

And my point is that God promised to look after the material needs of his followers, something which he routinely fails to do in all places where material needs are routinely a problem. Although thank you for pointing out he also failed to build his church. And let's not forget sending the holy spirit to give his believers a full understanding of his will. Damn your god is a fuck up.

[chefranden]

 

 

Edit: No wiggling out of this by saying you can't test God of course you can. As it is written, "Taste and see that the LORD is good". If you are unwilling to make the test and abide by its outcome as I am, I will be forced to conclude that you don't believe in Jesus any more than I do.

 

"Thy will be done, on Earth, as it is in heaven"

 

I follow Gods will Chef, and I am a sinner, not worthy of such a test.

 

But even if I did have these powers to go over and end suffering throughout the world, I couldn't at this time, agree?

 

 

And Elisha wasn't a sinner? Phooey. Everybody is/was a sinner. Just ask Paul.

 

But you seem to misunderstand. I know you don't have the powers. If you did you would end the suffering, because you are a nice guy, and you are real. No the test is for Jesus who is either not a nice guy or not real. I'm leaning towards not real, but like I say I'm open to proof.

 

Edit: I should mention that my personal brick is real, but it is not a nice guy.

[Vixentrox]

I want my own personal brick.

Praying to a brick and getting the same result as praying to god was the last test for me before ditching the faith completely. Got the same answer from both the brick and god and that was of course, no answer at all.

[Abiyoyo]

 

 

And Elisha wasn't a sinner? Phooey. Everybody is/was a sinner. Just ask Paul.

 

But you seem to misunderstand. I know you don't have the powers. If you did you would end the suffering, because you are a nice guy, and you are real. No the test is for Jesus who is either not a nice guy or not real. I'm leaning towards not real, but like I say I'm open to proof.

 

Edit: I should mention that my personal brick is real, but it is not a nice guy.

 

But, how can a person test Jesus and not account the prophetic words from Jesus? Earthquakes, famines, pestilences, signs from the heavens. These all are suppose to happen, but, the end will not come unto the Gospel is preached to all nations. No signs will be given, but that of Jonah.

 

Jonah was a man running away from God, and even when he did what God said to him to do, he was bitter about it.

 

I read. People that run from God and are bitter because they wanted to see God's wrath on sinners and be known as a great ministers to God. Yet, that isn't what happened, they just simply repented and God forgave them.

 

Just as Christ. They wanted signs, they wanted the show, the fireworks, yet the "Physician can't even heal himself".

[oddbird1963]

 

But, how can a person test Jesus and not account the prophetic words from Jesus? Earthquakes, famines, pestilences, signs from the heavens. These all are suppose to happen, but, the end will not come unto the Gospel is preached to all nations. No signs will be given, but that of Jonah.

 

Jonah was a man running away from God, and even when he did what God said to him to do, he was bitter about it.

 

I read. People that run from God and are bitter because they wanted to see God's wrath on sinners and be known as a great ministers to God. Yet, that isn't what happened, they just simply repented and God forgave them.

 

Just as Christ. They wanted signs, they wanted the show, the fireworks, yet the "Physician can't even heal himself".

 

Jesus' prophetic words are either historical events retrofitted back into the gospels or meaningless. I'll make a prophesy, "Earthquakes, famines, pestilences will happen! People will come and claim to be the messiah." Look! I'm a prophet!! You see, meaningless.

 

That doesn't wash.

 

And really, Abi. You are still tossing these red herrings around. Who is asking for god to "get the sinners" in this thread? Just alleviate the suffering of the poor. You seem to be lobbing ad hominems around to keep from dealing with the Big 3 + suffering/evil problem.

 

Now, it sounds as if you are saying, "You're all just bitter. " And you miss the point that the same god who DID send manna in the wilderness refuses to do it again out of mercy to those who are suffering.

 

Either he won't, so he's not loving.

Or he can't, so he's not all-powerful.

Or doesn't know what's going on so he's not all-knowing.

 

Either way, the god of your Christianity doesn't exist.

 

I understand that you may not know how to resolve this problem and still retain your personal god. But please quit repeating arguments that just don't pertain to anything. That's why they are red herrings. They keep you and others talking about things that don't deal with the BIG problem you have with the god of Christianity. "He's got other things to do" or "He wants YOU to feed the poor" is just a tacit admission that he is not loving. He is putting a cold agenda ahead of warm-blooded humans whom the Bible says he loves, yet who dwindle and die from starvation.

[Shyone]

But, how can a person test Jesus and not account the prophetic words from Jesus? Earthquakes, famines, pestilences, signs from the heavens. These all are suppose to happen, but, the end will not come unto the Gospel is preached to all nations. No signs will be given, but that of Jonah.

 

Jonah was a man running away from God, and even when he did what God said to him to do, he was bitter about it.

 

I read. People that run from God and are bitter because they wanted to see God's wrath on sinners and be known as a great ministers to God. Yet, that isn't what happened, they just simply repented and God forgave them.

 

Just as Christ. They wanted signs, they wanted the show, the fireworks, yet the "Physician can't even heal himself".

Which famines, pestilences, and earthquakes are signs? The Earthquake in Crete in 365 AD? One of these perhaps:

 

1904 03 21 - Southeast Maine - M 5.1

1903 08 11 - Southern Greece - M 8.3

1903 05 28 - Gole, Turkey (Ottomon Empire) - M 5.8 Fatalities 1,000

1903 04 28 - Turkey - M 7.0 Fatalities 3,500

1902 12 16 - eastern Uzbekistan (Turkestan) - M 6.4 Fatalities 4,700

1902 04 19 - Guatemala - M 7.5 Fatalities 2,000

1901 12 31 - Cook Inlet, Alaska - M 7.1

1901 12 18 - Ayvalik, Turkey (Ottoman Empire) - M 5.9

1901 05 17 - Near Portsmouth, Ohio - M 4.2

1901 03 03 - Parkfield, California - M 6.4

1900 10 09 - Kodiak Island, Alaska - M 7.7

1899 12 25 - San Jacinto, California - M 6.7 Fatalities 6

1899 09 23 - Copper River delta, Alaska - M 7.0

1899 09 20 - Menderes Valley, Turkey - M 6.9 Fatalities 1,100

1899 09 10 - Yakutat Bay, Alaska - M 8.0

1899 09 04 - Cape Yakataga, Alaska - M 7.9

1899 04 16 - Eureka, California - M 7.0

1898 04 15 - Mendocino County, California - M 6.8

1898 03 31 - Mare Island, California - M 6.3

1897 06 20 - Calaveras fault, California - M 6.3

1897 06 12 - Assam, India - M 8.3 Fatalities 1,500

1897 05 31 - Giles County, Virginia - M 5.9

1896 06 15 - Sanriku, Japan - M 8.5 Fatalities 27,000

1895 10 31 - Charleston, Missouri - M 6.6

1892 04 21 - Winters, California - M 6.4

1892 04 19 - Vacaville, California - M 6.4 Fatalities 1

1892 02 24 - Imperial Valley, California - M 7.8

1891 10 27 - Mino-Owari, Japan - M 8.0 Fatalities 7,273

1890 02 24 - Corralitos, California - M 6.3

1887 06 08 - Almaty, Kazakhstan - M 7.3

1887 05 03 - Northern Sonora, Mexico - M 7.4 Fatalities 51

1886 09 01 - Charleston, South Carolina - M 7.3 Fatalities 60

1884 09 19 - Near Lima, Ohio - M 4.8

1884 08 10 - New York City, New York - M 5.5

1882 11 08 - Denver, Colorado - M 6.6

1879 01 13 - St. Augustine, Florida

1877 11 15 - Eastern Nebraska - M 5.1

1877 05 10 - Offshore Tarapaca, Chile - M 8.3 Fatalities 34

1875 05 18 - northern Colombia - M 7.3 Fatalities 16,000

1873 11 23 - California - Oregon Coast - M 7.3

1872 12 15 - Lake Chelan, Washington - M 6.8

1872 03 26 - Owens Valley, California - M 7.4 Fatalities 27

1872 01 28 - Samaxi, Azerbaijan - M 5.7 Fatalities 118

1871 10 09 - New Jersey - Delaware border

1871 10 09 - New Jersey - Delaware border

1871 02 20 - Lanai, Hawaii - M 6.8

1868 10 21 - Hayward, California - M 6.8 Fatalities 30

1868 08 13 - Arica, Peru (now Chile) - M 9.0 Fatalities 25,000

1868 04 03 - Ka'u District, Island of Hawaii - M 7.9 Fatalities 77

1868 03 29 - Ka'u District, Island of Hawaii - M 7.0

1867 11 18 - Puerto Rico Region

1867 04 24 - Manhattan, Kansas - M 5.1

1865 10 08 - Santa Cruz Mountains, California - M 6.5

1865 08 17 - Memphis, Tennessee - M 5.0

1857 12 16 - Naples, Italy - M 6.9 Fatalities 11,000

1857 01 09 - Fort Tejon, California - M 7.9 Fatalities 1

1855 01 23 - Wellington, New Zealand - M 8.0 Fatalities 4

1843 02 08 - Leeward Islands - M 8.3 Fatalities 5,000

1843 01 05 - Northeast Arkansas - M 6.3

1838 06 - San Francisco area, California - M 6.8

1836 06 10 - South San Francisco Bay region, California - M 6.5

1835 02 20 - Concepcion, Chile - M 8.2 Fatalities 500

1823 06 02 - South flank of Kilauea, Hawaii - M 7.0

1821 07 10 - Camana, Peru - M 8.2 Fatalities 162

1819 06 16 - Gujarat, India Fatalities 2,000

1812 12 21 - West of Ventura, California - M 7.1 Fatalities 1

1812 12 08 - Southwest of San Bernadino County, California - M 6.9 Fatalities 40

1812 03 26 - Caracas, Venezuela - M 7.7 Fatalities 26,000

1812 02 07 - New Madrid Region - M 8.0

1812 01 23 - New Madrid Region - M 7.8

1811 12 16 - New Madrid Region

1811 12 16 - New Madrid Region - M 8.1 Fatalities Several

1791 05 16 - Moodus, Connecticut

1787 05 02 - Puerto Rico - M 8.0

1783 11 30 - New Jersey - M 5.3

1783 02 04 - Calabria, Italy Fatalities 50,000

1780 02 06 - Northwest Florida

1755 11 18 - Cape Ann, Massachusetts

1755 11 01 - Lisbon, Portugal - M 8.7 Fatalities 70,000

1755 06 07 - Kashan, Iran Fatalities 40,000

1746 10 28 - Lima, Peru Fatalities 5,000

1744 06 14 - Southern Cape Ann, Massachusetts region

1730 07 08 - Valparasio, Chile - M 8.7

1727 11 18 - Tabriz, Iran Fatalities 77,000

1727 11 10 - Northern Cape Ann region, Massachusetts

1700 01 26 - Cascadia Subduction Zone - M 9.0

1693 01 11 - Sicily, Italy - M 7.5 Fatalities 60,000

1692 06 07 - Jamaica Fatalities 2,000

1687 10 20 - Lima, Peru - M 8.5 Fatalities 600

1668 08 17 - Anatolia, Turkey - M 8.0 Fatalities 8,000

1667 11 - Shemakha, Caucasia Fatalities 80,000

1664 05 12 - Ica, Peru - M 7.3 Fatalities 400

1663 02 05 - St. Lawrence Valley region, Quebec, Canada - M 7.0

1638 06 11 - St. Lawrence region

1619 02 14 - Trujillo, Peru - M 7.7 Fatalities 350

 

1568 - Moodus-East Haddam, Connecticut - Intensity VI

1556 01 23 - Shensi, China - M 8.0 Fatalities 830,000

 

1290 09 27 - Chihli, China Fatalities 100,000

1268 - Silicia, Asia Minor Fatalities 60,000

 

1138 08 09 - Aleppo, Syria Fatalities 230,000

 

0893 03 23 - Ardabil, Iran Fatalities 150,000

0856 12 22 - Damghan, Iran Fatalities 200,000

 

The Black Plague? Or maybe one of these:

 

Plague of Pericles (430-428 B.C.)

Antonine Plague (165-180 A.D.)

Plague of Cyprian or Aurelian Plague (251- 270)

Plague of Justinian (541-542)

 

 

Which famines:

 

1 5th century BC

2 2nd century BC

3 5th century AD

4 7th century AD

5 8th century

6 9th century

7 10th century

8 11th century

9 12th century

10 13th century

11 14th century

12 15th century

13 16th century

14 17th century

15 18th century

16 19th century

17 20th century

18 21st century

 

 

Natural disasters are just that: Natural. And famines and plagues are the result of very understandable phenomena. Signs from heaven? Only in your mind.

[par4dcourse]

Sorry, no post. Seems I can't figure out how put a freakin' photo up today.

 

 

[Abiyoyo]

 

 

 

And really, Abi. You are still tossing these red herrings around. Who is asking for god to "get the sinners" in this thread? Just alleviate the suffering of the poor. You seem to be lobbing ad hominems around to keep from dealing with the Big 3 + suffering/evil problem.

..............................................................

He is putting a cold agenda ahead of warm-blooded humans whom the Bible says he loves, yet who dwindle and die from starvation.

 

 

 

Which famines, pestilences, and earthquakes are signs? The Earthquake in Crete in 365 AD? One of these perhaps:

 

...................................

Natural disasters are just that: Natural. And famines and plagues are the result of very understandable phenomena. Signs from heaven? Only in your mind.

 

This my point exactly with Skeptics. You pick the one subject, point, that you can prove your skepticism and disregard the rest of the posts, or for that matter, the entire point.

 

Go back and read what I wrote, because to me, you guys are coming off as extremely unobservant and meaningless.

 

Here's how I read your posts.

 

Abi, The blah blah blah, and you are blah blah blah. We won't regard your other points because we love to blah, blah.

 

The Gospel has been preached to ALL nations in this world at this time and THAT is why the prophetic meaning of Christ is an important factor in today when skeptics want Jesus to prove He is real.

 

The prophecy about all those things (yes, I know they have all happened before), plus, the fact that the Gospels has 100% been preached throughout the Earth, which HAS NOT happened until the last 20 years.

 

Okay, so I addressed your red herrings that have nothing to do with what I was saying; so, your turn.

 

Gospel has been preached throughout the nations, all nations. Add that to why we can't test Christ, if, we don't even regard what He said. Oh, then I ADDED that there are natural disturbances happening unlike any of the last 100-200 years, in total.

[Shyone]

This my point exactly with Skeptics. You pick the one subject, point, that you can prove your skepticism and disregard the rest of the posts, or for that matter, the entire point.

 

Go back and read what I wrote, because to me, you guys are coming off as extremely unobservant and meaningless.

 

Here's how I read your posts.

 

Abi, The blah blah blah, and you are blah blah blah. We won't regard your other points because we love to blah, blah.

 

The Gospel has been preached to ALL nations in this world at this time and THAT is why the prophetic meaning of Christ is an important factor in today when skeptics want Jesus to prove He is real.

 

The prophecy about all those things (yes, I know they have all happened before), plus, the fact that the Gospels has 100% been preached throughout the Earth, which HAS NOT happened until the last 20 years.

 

Okay, so I addressed your red herrings that have nothing to do with what I was saying; so, your turn.

 

Gospel has been preached throughout the nations, all nations. Add that to why we can't test Christ, if, we don't even regard what He said. Oh, then I ADDED that there are natural disturbances happening unlike any of the last 100-200 years, in total.

MY point was that the Earthquakes, pestilence and famine were all bogus prophecies, and so is the prophecy regarding the preaching of the gospel.

 

Is that the reason for the missionaries? To bring about the end times?

 

Your claim about the "natural disturbances" unlike any before is bullshit. Try topping the Black Plague. And did you not notice the distribution of the famines?

 

We have much better record keeping now, but disasters including all of the above have always been part of the earth's natural history, no more now than in the past.

 

If the gospel was preached to the whole earth, by your own accouht, 20 years ago, then your prophecy is already 20 years overdue.

 

Come to think of it, Hal Lindsey predicted the end of the world 20 years ago. Maybe you missed it.

[chefranden]

 

 

And Elisha wasn't a sinner? Phooey. Everybody is/was a sinner. Just ask Paul.

 

But you seem to misunderstand. I know you don't have the powers. If you did you would end the suffering, because you are a nice guy, and you are real. No the test is for Jesus who is either not a nice guy or not real. I'm leaning towards not real, but like I say I'm open to proof.

 

Edit: I should mention that my personal brick is real, but it is not a nice guy.

 

But, how can a person test Jesus and not account the prophetic words from Jesus? Earthquakes, famines, pestilences, signs from the heavens. These all are suppose to happen, but, the end will not come unto the Gospel is preached to all nations. No signs will be given, but that of Jonah.

 

Jonah was a man running away from God, and even when he did what God said to him to do, he was bitter about it.

 

I read. People that run from God and are bitter because they wanted to see God's wrath on sinners and be known as a great ministers to God. Yet, that isn't what happened, they just simply repented and God forgave them.

 

Just as Christ. They wanted signs, they wanted the show, the fireworks, yet the "Physician can't even heal himself".

 

Ya, it appears from the story that Yahweh, Jesus, and, H.S.Casper* are pretty schizoid about these matters. On the one hand if two or three agree then Yahweh will do it. On the other hand he will bust Haitians or Amalekites for what their great great grandfathers did. On the one hand if you have puny bit of faith, you can tell a mountain to go jump in a lake, but on the other hand you better not test to see if it's so.

 

I should remind you that one can't run from non-existent beings. And I'm not bitter either. I know it is a difficult thing for you to grok, but as far as I know there really is no God. I'm not just saying that to fuck with him for not rapturing George Bush in a timely fashion or for not getting me that 3 speed bike for my 10th birthday. When engaging with you perhaps I should write "the alleged god of the Christians" when ever I mention one of the three heavenly stooges who can never seem to get their act together. I should but I'm too lazy.

 

*I always thought that the Holy Spirit got screwed when he\she/it? didn't get a name.

[oddbird1963]

Abiyoyo,

 

The title of this thread is "Is the Christian God a Personal God?" In the OP, Kathlene raised the issue of the starving masses in anticipation of skeptics/atheists/freethinkers posting that objection. I have been steering the conversation repeatedly back to the Christian God's nature and the problem of suffering, particularly the suffering of the starving. Many of the other participants on this thread have done this as well to one degree or another.

 

So by steering the conversation back to 1) God is omnipotent 2) God is omniscient 3) God is Love yet 4) evil (particularly starvation) exists we are the ones staying on topic.

 

When you try to say 1) It is OUR fault people are starving or 2) there exists some vast eternal salvific plan, you are, in fact, getting off topic. How can god be a personal god when he presumably loves the people he is letting evaporate to leather, bone and sunken eye sockets?

 

If everything you say is true about prophecy the christian god still cannot exist. Because

 

Either he won't (or wouldn't end starvation), so he's not loving.

Or he can't, so he's not all-powerful.

Or doesn't know what's going on so he's not all-knowing.

 

None of your posts on why it is our fault or what God's saving plan is does anything to resolve this.

 

Only by dealing with the dead and the starving to death that has taken place and continues to take place right now, will you be staying on topic and not throwing red herrings about.

 

I have read your posts, Abiyoyo. I have told you why they are not adequate answers: they don't deal with those that God has let starve to death.

The dead and dying and God's alleged goodness, power and knowledge ARE the main issue. Your responses have not adequately dealt with them because they don't tackle how God can be all-knowing, all-powerful and loving yet overlook those with the swollen bellies and sunken eye sockets.

 

I can only ask, which points have you made which you don't feel are being adequately acknowledged? It so happens I don't agree with your assertion that some great prophecy has been fulfilled that Jesus supposedly made. But that's not pertinent to the subject.

 

Even if your assertions are true, how does that deal with those who God let die when he could have, in his omnipotence and omniscience, prevented it?

 

The fact that you read our points as blah blah blah is not surprising, though it is disappointing. I feel I have made efforts to understand your points quite well and that I am listening to you. Just because I say your responses to our position are red herrings in relation to the OP does not make our staying on point red herrings.

 

If there is a god, he is only a personal god to a select few with many many believers hanging on in faith hoping that he/she/it will be a personal god to them. The fact that he lets billions die who need his attention more than the potentially fictitious lady in the strawberry anecdote raises the issue of the big 3 + suffering/evil.

 

So who is off point, Abiyoyo? I have restated your position several times. Are you sure you are really coming to grips with what it means to believe in the Christian god?

 

Respectfully,

 

OB '63

[Abiyoyo]

Abiyoyo,

 

 

The fact that you read our points as blah blah blah is not surprising, though it is disappointing. I feel I have made efforts to understand your points quite well and that I am listening to you. Just because I say your responses to our position are red herrings in relation to the OP does not make our staying on point red herrings.

 

 

 

Well, when I hear the same response reformed over and over again, like in this post, then, yes, it comes out like that. No pun intended, reread your posts, all the same.

 

My point all in all is that you are not correct in anything you have said.

 

I said earlier, IF, God was omniscient, then He knows exactly what needs to be done in each situation. As far as omnibenevolent, that is what is really being debated here, not the other two. God could be omnipotent, omniscient and not be omnibenevolent toward mankind.

 

So, instead of rehashing prior information and posts, lets summarize and slim this topic down to, Is God omnibenevolent?

 

First, wouldn't this be a perception, instead of a deity characterization?

 

Example. Man suffers, man says God doesn't love me, he is not all loving. Man suffers, man says God loves me, he is all loving?

 

Now, omnipotence. God could be omnipotent and not show us His potency, right?

God could be omniscient, and not show us all things, right?

 

These two relate to omnibenevolent in that it would make someoen 'feel' that God doesn't love them, which would make them feel he is neither omnibenevolent, omniscient, omnipotent.

 

So is omnibenevolent as the others? Can God be omnibenevolent and not show His love in every human situation, as omnipotence, and omniscience?

 

I say it is possible because just as omnipotence, and omniscience, God doesn't show his power and knowledge in every human situation. And, if He is omniscient, then His omnibenevolence is already measured within, and we just don't understand it because we are not like God, we are not God, and we die.

 

Now, before you say that is a red herring, or typical apologetic, I will ask.

 

Odd, how else should one summarize it to be. We live, we die? God is immortal. There are things that happen in this world that we will never understand, but, that doesn't mean God doesnt understand, just us.