Why We Should Attack Moderate Religiosity

[Greatest I am]

That is just a part of our usual way of life.

 

The basic ingredients are in any town.

 

I'm arguing that a completely unique demographic is attracted to boom communities. It's not a good way to try and represent society as a whole.

 

Perhaps but the participants are just moved out of existing demographics within the country.

 

How many brothels in your town?

 

In my town, St Petersburg?

 

That means many.

 

We consider it a show of lack of social skills to use a hooker for our first sexual experience while you think hookers are good teacher. LOL

 

You've been watching too much American Pie.

 

Not my kind of art form.

 

Regards

DL

[Shyone]

We consider it a show of lack of social skills to use a hooker for our first sexual experience while you think hookers are good teacher. LOL

 

You've been watching too much American Pie.

Or "Risky Business."

 

I've never been with a prostitute personally, but I would speculate that a tiny minority of people had their first experience with a prostitute. It would seem to be more of a last resort for those who are lonely.

[Ouroboros]

I would need an example of our more liberal option to compare. your statement is to open ended.

Hmm... is English your second language? I think you failed to see that my statement was about what I thought was the truth. Read it again: "I thought Canada had a lot more liberties and a culture of more liberal views, even socialized medicine." That means, "I THOUGHT," i.e. "I BELIEVED," and this kind of wording is not a statement of fact or claim, and is not an argument against another person's view. It's an opening to further discussion. Or, it could be taken as a question to you to prove your side.

 

But anyway, obviously you know this better than me (since you're actually from Canada). So I will concede on that point and admit that Canada has just as tough laws and restrictions on it's citizens as USA, solely based on your claim.

 

As to socialized medicin; I think that our government is more for the people and less for the corporations that control your government.

Wait. Are you saying that Canada's government focus more on people's rights than on corporations?

 

So if we in America have laws that restrict people because of corporations' interests, and it's not in Canada, and yet Canada and USA are the same???

 

I don't get it. Are they the same, or are they not?

 

Less corruption and the buying of votes here. Our government is also simpler to understand than yours and this also leaves less room for corruption by the big corporate players.

So they are different? There is more liberty (freedom, space to move, less restrictions) than USA?

 

I'm confused...

 

I guess I can now answer you on your first question: "I would need an example of our more liberal option to compare. your statement is to open ended." And my answer is that Canada's "government is more for the people and less for the corporations that control your government," and because there is "less corruption and the buying of votes here." On top of that, Canada's "government is also simpler to understand than yours [uSA] and this also leaves less room for corruption by the big corporate players."

[Vigile]

Perhaps but the participants are just moved out of existing demographics within the country.

 

You haven't made a case for this, you are simply assuming it to be true. My case is that they are different. Who moves to mining towns that just struck a vein? Get-rich-quick types. This is not a sampling of the general demographic.

 

Irregardless, I don't get the fuss over this. Young men with cash in hand and no women around like to get drunk and fuck. So what?

[Greatest I am]

Yes, this is a good example where religious Islamic moderates voted for secular government. It could have gone the other way without the moderates. One kudos for moderates. Right.

I take a point in my argument for this.

I fail to understand your arguments and your claim.

 

What is it again?

 

Only that religionists are a good sober second thought for secular governments and they would try to bring more dignity for the overall systems. I might add that I see man as having two basic natures. The political one that looks after the body or visible universe, so to speak and a spiritual nature that looks to the souls and some ideal as represented by their view of God. Out of the 6 billion of us here now, the majority seem to belong to a religion of some sort so I would be in the majority in this as at the same time I do not like their views on God.

Is it that a secular society hates religion, try to destroy it, and this leads to a rise in prostitutes?

 

Hell no.

 

Or is your claim that it doesn't? I'm not sure I follow you...

 

I would think that the demand for prostitution is what allows it to be what it is.

We do live in a demand and supply world.

 

The question jups out at us as to why men are not capable of finding girl friends and must resort to prostitutes in the first place. Seems to be the lack of social skills.

 

I am not saying I have more than others on this but when I was a player, I could always find some ready female without having to check my wallet first.

Hell, I am not even that good looking. Hmm. I take that back.

 

For your information, religion is not outlawed in Sweden. There are Lutherans, Catholics, Muslims, Jews, and many, many other practicing religious churches. They even have Islamic mosques. One was built close to where I lived, just before we moved. They can practice their religion just as freely as they do here in USA. And Sweden is considered a secular country.

 

Yes I know this and note of late their problems with Islam.

 

And we went back to Sweden over Christmas. They celebrate Christmas and Easter there. Some people even go to the state church (yes, they do have a state church, but it has been separated from the state since 20 years, but it's still called a state church, go figure). But in general, agnosticism and atheism is much stronger there, and yet I didn't see any freelancing fornicators on the streets. Maybe because it was too cold? I'll check next time we go--it'll be in summer this time.

 

Either you look in the wrong places or you did not check out their red light district.

I know of no country where freelance sex cannot be found.

Not too sure about Iraq.

 

Regards

DL

[florduh]

Young men with cash in hand and no women around like to get drunk and fuck.

Ah, and thus has it always been.

 

As an aside, it was in Toronto I received and paid for my one and only professional "massage." The opportunities were so prevalent I could hardly avoid it! Also, Canadian women are pretty hot. IMHO of course.

 

Note to self: Visit Canada again before everything stops working.

[Neon Genesis]

I'd like to see Greatest I Am's evidence that all prostitutes are atheists or that they became prostitutes because they read The God Delusion.

[oddbird1963]

 

2. What is your definition of dignity?

 

To be able to look about and know that man is as good a man as he can be.

 

 

 

 

And we need religion or spiritualism to establish that ? Really ? Somehow, some way, a rational system of philosophy and rational thinking can't help us with that ? There must be some "magical" ingredient ? That secularists and atheists cannot establish or believe in levels of morality that are similar or even better, perhaps, than religionists and spiritualists ? Is this the lofty card you're playing of: "I see more than you plodding materialists" ? Because of idealistic feelings and ideas about how "human culture and humankind" should behave ?

 

It sounds as though you are similar to many religious people I know who fear an world that more and more is separating religious beliefs from how we apply law and respect human dignity. Once again, this seems to be the sentiment we're used to that somehow thinks that non-belief will result in a sort of "anything goes" society. I claim that's bullshit, but we will see what others have to say about it.

 

Just to be clear, that is not my definition of dignity, it is "Greatest I Am's" definition.

 

The quote tags are out of whack in your post.

[Greatest I am]

As to the major difference between the U S and Canada, I would thinkj that the main thing that has slowed your civilizing would be from your ancient stance on slavery. It takes generations to get past such a mind set.

Part of it may also be your view of freedom in the sense of the John Wayne type of attitude and vigilaneism.

That speaks to freedom and responsibility.

 

Like Ouroboros, I'm having a difficult time understanding exactly what it is you are arguing. You make a strong statement and then you seem to argue something completely different in the response. I'm confused.

 

I would have to see where I do so to clarify.

 

As to your analysis of the US it seems pretty simplistic. I suspect the answer to why the US and Canada are different is far more complex.

 

Absolutely.

I have kept it simple and have only highlighted what I think I see clearly. After all we are supposed to be speaking of religion here and not politics even as I understand that they are intertwined. I am not a social scientist and have not studied the issue at any length.

 

Regards

DL

[Greatest I am]

If Bush is an example then your separation of church and state is a failure.

 

Even Obama had to say he was a believer or risk not being elected. Good separation there friend.

If it worked you would wonder why religious affiliations are the first thing your media looks for when questioning any delegate.

 

Regards

DL

The secular standards set by the constitution are intended to prevent religious abuses, not to prevent religious people from holding office. Ideally, with three branches of government working at odds with one another, injection of religion into the workings of the state will be curbed. Unfortunately, when all three align to insert religion despite the constitution, then we get things like "Faith Based Inititatives", In God We Trust on our money and "Under God" in the Pledge of Allegiance.

 

But government also has the means of correcting such things in time by appeals to the Supreme Court. Opinion about religion should not matter, but unfortunately it does.

 

Hence, the state remains the single means of curbing religious abuses even if it does so imperpectly. There is no "check and balance" between religion and state. The state checks religion, and religion is constantly seeking to undermine the state.

 

 

"religion is constantly seeking to undermine the state."

 

It may be semantics but that is what I call a check.

If it was supporting it, it would hardly be a check.

 

Regards

DL

[Shyone]

 

"religion is constantly seeking to undermine the state."

 

It may be semantics but that is what I call a check.

If it was supporting it, it would hardly be a check.

 

Regards

DL

To the degree that religion succeeds, government fails. It is the responsibility of the constitutionally authorized government to stop religious expression and implementation by the government (or supported by government) dead in its tracks.

 

By your logic, terrorism and the mob are checks on government since it is the government's responsibility to stop terrorism and the mob dead in their tracks.

[Greatest I am]

As to your analysis of the US it seems pretty simplistic. I suspect the answer to why the US and Canada are different is far more complex.

Agree.

 

Since both you and I have lived in two different countries (even continents), we both can see the difference but also the complexity of everything.

 

I can't say for sure what is the main reason to the differences between Sweden and USA, but I think it does start with culture and tradition. The heritage of mores and values are the basis for people's attitude towards life and society, and society, government, and crime rates will reflect that. But then there's a feedback from laws and government to people's attitudes, values, and mores. It's a circle, where one thing feeds on the other. Just like economy.

 

I may be wrong but I think that the major difference was the fact that the U S, and pardon the language here, have ghettoizsed many of their citizens, be it in the cities or in the native population. If Sweden have any ghettos then I do not know of them. Even now in Canada, many see our reserves as a breeding ground for the prostitute population that moves to the cities.

 

Regards

DL

[Lanakila]

Prostitution has nothing to do with religious belief or lack therof. Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. If you poll most inmates in jail you'll find that the majority are God believers of some sort or another. Does this mean believers are more likely to break the law? It could, but you'd have to take in account the percentage of God believers verses non-god believers in the general population, plus take into account conversions as a result of the incarceration.

 

In other words this is deeper than it appears on the surface.

[Ouroboros]

Only that religionists are a good sober second thought for secular governments and they would try to bring more dignity for the overall systems. I might add that I see man as having two basic natures. The political one that looks after the body or visible universe, so to speak and a spiritual nature that looks to the souls and some ideal as represented by their view of God. Out of the 6 billion of us here now, the majority seem to belong to a religion of some sort so I would be in the majority in this as at the same time I do not like their views on God.

Ok.

 

Perhaps that is true. Perhaps humanity is bound to live in a delusion of a higher power to keep them straight. But somewhere on this website, there is a discussion about a research that shows that religion is not necessary for a moral life.

 

Just because something has been done in the past a certain way doesn't mean it's the best or right way.

 

I would think that the demand for prostitution is what allows it to be what it is.

We do live in a demand and supply world.

 

The question jups out at us as to why men are not capable of finding girl friends and must resort to prostitutes in the first place. Seems to be the lack of social skills.

I think I saw some statistics once (but let this be my speculation rather than a fact) that most of the johns are married. They do it because of an unfulfilled marriage.

 

I am not saying I have more than others on this but when I was a player, I could always find some ready female without having to check my wallet first.

Hell, I am not even that good looking. Hmm. I take that back.

Which means that it's not about looks or money why johns go to hookers.

 

And we went back to Sweden over Christmas. They celebrate Christmas and Easter there. Some people even go to the state church (yes, they do have a state church, but it has been separated from the state since 20 years, but it's still called a state church, go figure). But in general, agnosticism and atheism is much stronger there, and yet I didn't see any freelancing fornicators on the streets. Maybe because it was too cold? I'll check next time we go--it'll be in summer this time.

 

Either you look in the wrong places or you did not check out their red light district.

I know of no country where freelance sex cannot be found.

Not too sure about Iraq.

I didn't say it didn't exist. You're misunderstanding again. This is a very weird discussion because you're missing the finer points of the things I say. And obviously I'm missing what you're saying too.

[Ouroboros]

I may be wrong but I think that the major difference was the fact that the U S, and pardon the language here, have ghettoizsed many of their citizens, be it in the cities or in the native population. If Sweden have any ghettos then I do not know of them. Even now in Canada, many see our reserves as a breeding ground for the prostitute population that moves to the cities.

Maybe. I'll think about that one.

[Vigile]

As to the major difference between the U S and Canada, I would thinkj that the main thing that has slowed your civilizing would be from your ancient stance on slavery. It takes generations to get past such a mind set.

Part of it may also be your view of freedom in the sense of the John Wayne type of attitude and vigilaneism.

That speaks to freedom and responsibility.

 

Like Ouroboros, I'm having a difficult time understanding exactly what it is you are arguing. You make a strong statement and then you seem to argue something completely different in the response. I'm confused.

 

I would have to see where I do so to clarify.

 

As to your analysis of the US it seems pretty simplistic. I suspect the answer to why the US and Canada are different is far more complex.

 

Absolutely.

I have kept it simple and have only highlighted what I think I see clearly. After all we are supposed to be speaking of religion here and not politics even as I understand that they are intertwined. I am not a social scientist and have not studied the issue at any length.

 

Regards

DL

 

I have a degree in social science, and while that doesn't make me an expert by any means I find your claims that religion is necessary to balance secular government completely unsupported. I would suggest you spend some time studying Rousseau, Locke, JS Mill, Kant, and a few others. It will give you a better idea how morality is actually constructed and specifically how that morality interplays with government and law. In fact, history has shown that where religious influence has eroded, at least in Western society, progress toward freedom has increased. My educated, but less than expert opinion is that you are wrong in your assessment that religion is a necessary force in keeping governments in line and it is also my opinion that you rely too much on your own perception and personal experience in assessing how morality is impacted by religion and how religion impacts government. My $0.02

[Greatest I am]

Perhaps but the participants are just moved out of existing demographics within the country.

 

You haven't made a case for this, you are simply assuming it to be true. My case is that they are different. Who moves to mining towns that just struck a vein? Get-rich-quick types. This is not a sampling of the general demographic.

 

Irregardless, I don't get the fuss over this. Young men with cash in hand and no women around like to get drunk and fuck. So what?

 

So with no women around they fuck their fists. So what?

 

Seriously.

So perhaps she is part of the sex slave market.

Perhaps her pimp beats her daily to keep her working.

Perhaps she was fucked by her father from the age of 8 before she could escape. So Fucking what.

The only important thing is men old enough to be the fathers of those they are fucking to get off right.

So what.

 

So no dignity and tast is developed in our sons and daughters. So what.

Humans are just commodities like bread and milk and can be bought. So what.

 

Do you want your children in the trade?

 

Regards

DL

[Greatest I am]

I'd like to see Greatest I Am's evidence that all prostitutes are atheists or that they became prostitutes because they read The God Delusion.

 

I will provide it when I make such a stupid claim.

 

Regards

DL

[Greatest I am]

 

"religion is constantly seeking to undermine the state."

 

It may be semantics but that is what I call a check.

If it was supporting it, it would hardly be a check.

 

Regards

DL

To the degree that religion succeeds, government fails. It is the responsibility of the constitutionally authorized government to stop religious expression and implementation by the government (or supported by government) dead in its tracks.

 

By your logic, terrorism and the mob are checks on government since it is the government's responsibility to stop terrorism and the mob dead in their tracks.

 

It is the duty of every citizen, religionist or not, terrorist or not, to protest in whatever way they can, what they see as wrong with government.

 

A check from whatever source is good.

 

If one can change laws peacefully then that is nice.

If a law is really bad then the protestor must decide if the law is worth breaking or not.

Some laws must be broken before change comes about for the betterment of the nation.

 

Regards

DL

[Greatest I am]

Prostitution has nothing to do with religious belief or lack therof. Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. If you poll most inmates in jail you'll find that the majority are God believers of some sort or another. Does this mean believers are more likely to break the law? It could, but you'd have to take in account the percentage of God believers verses non-god believers in the general population, plus take into account conversions as a result of the incarceration.

 

In other words this is deeper than it appears on the surface.

 

No argument here. I agree.

 

Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.

I do think the above is a stupid statement though.

 

Regards

DL

[bornagainathiest]

Y, if it isn't good ole DL again!

 

Yipee!

Yahoo!

Yoicks!

 

BAA

[Vigile]

Perhaps but the participants are just moved out of existing demographics within the country.

 

You haven't made a case for this, you are simply assuming it to be true. My case is that they are different. Who moves to mining towns that just struck a vein? Get-rich-quick types. This is not a sampling of the general demographic.

 

Irregardless, I don't get the fuss over this. Young men with cash in hand and no women around like to get drunk and fuck. So what?

 

So with no women around they fuck their fists. So what?

 

Seriously.

So perhaps she is part of the sex slave market.

Perhaps her pimp beats her daily to keep her working.

Perhaps she was fucked by her father from the age of 8 before she could escape. So Fucking what.

The only important thing is men old enough to be the fathers of those they are fucking to get off right.

So what.

 

So no dignity and tast is developed in our sons and daughters. So what.

Humans are just commodities like bread and milk and can be bought. So what.

 

Do you want your children in the trade?

 

Regards

DL

 

Well, I'd debate you on this, but you pretty much have your mind made up and appear to be pretty emotional about the subject, so what's the point?

[Greatest I am]

Perhaps that is true. Perhaps humanity is bound to live in a delusion of a higher power to keep them straight. But somewhere on this website, there is a discussion about a research that shows that religion is not necessary for a moral life.

 

I agree completely.

 

My morality as a non believer did not change when I found the Godhead.

It was just confirmed.

 

 

Just because something has been done in the past a certain way doesn't mean it's the best or right way.

 

I agree.

 

I would think that the demand for prostitution is what allows it to be what it is.

We do live in a demand and supply world.

 

The question jups out at us as to why men are not capable of finding girl friends and must resort to prostitutes in the first place. Seems to be the lack of social skills.

I think I saw some statistics once (but let this be my speculation rather than a fact) that most of the johns are married. They do it because of an unfulfilled marriage.

 

Then the should behave like moral men and get out of that situation so that both they and their wives can go find a partner that they can have a meaningful life with.

These men are not my definition of the word men.

 

I am not saying I have more than others on this but when I was a player, I could always find some ready female without having to check my wallet first.

Hell, I am not even that good looking. Hmm. I take that back.

Which means that it's not about looks or money why johns go to hookers.

 

There is likely a pleufora of reasons.

I am no English, as I think you noted, but I do know the odd weird word.

Now if I could only get my composition right.

 

And we went back to Sweden over Christmas. They celebrate Christmas and Easter there. Some people even go to the state church (yes, they do have a state church, but it has been separated from the state since 20 years, but it's still called a state church, go figure). But in general, agnosticism and atheism is much stronger there, and yet I didn't see any freelancing fornicators on the streets. Maybe because it was too cold? I'll check next time we go--it'll be in summer this time.

 

Either you look in the wrong places or you did not check out their red light district.

I know of no country where freelance sex cannot be found.

Not too sure about Iraq.

I didn't say it didn't exist. You're misunderstanding again. This is a very weird discussion because you're missing the finer points of the things I say. And obviously I'm missing what you're saying too.

 

I have my excuse. You may as well.

It is said that people who know more than one language have a hard time being understood.

 

A prochaine. Till next time.

 

Regards

DL

[Greatest I am]

As to the major difference between the U S and Canada, I would thinkj that the main thing that has slowed your civilizing would be from your ancient stance on slavery. It takes generations to get past such a mind set.

Part of it may also be your view of freedom in the sense of the John Wayne type of attitude and vigilaneism.

That speaks to freedom and responsibility.

 

Like Ouroboros, I'm having a difficult time understanding exactly what it is you are arguing. You make a strong statement and then you seem to argue something completely different in the response. I'm confused.

 

I would have to see where I do so to clarify.

 

As to your analysis of the US it seems pretty simplistic. I suspect the answer to why the US and Canada are different is far more complex.

 

Absolutely.

I have kept it simple and have only highlighted what I think I see clearly. After all we are supposed to be speaking of religion here and not politics even as I understand that they are intertwined. I am not a social scientist and have not studied the issue at any length.

 

Regards

DL

 

I have a degree in social science, and while that doesn't make me an expert by any means I find your claims that religion is necessary to balance secular government completely unsupported. I would suggest you spend some time studying Rousseau, Locke, JS Mill, Kant, and a few others. It will give you a better idea how morality is actually constructed and specifically how that morality interplays with government and law. In fact, history has shown that where religious influence has eroded, at least in Western society, progress toward freedom has increased. My educated, but less than expert opinion is that you are wrong in your assessment that religion is a necessary force in keeping governments in line and it is also my opinion that you rely too much on your own perception and personal experience in assessing how morality is impacted by religion and how religion impacts government. My $0.02

 

Religion per say is not required but at present, there is no other institution that I know of the promotes dignity with freedom. I like freedom as well as all here but think that dignity should also have a place and a champion.

 

I gave a rough interpretation of dignity earlier. I bow to your degree and would ask what you would define as dignity and how it pertains to freedom?

 

No learned paper now. just a short and sweet reply.

 

Regards

DL

[Vigile]

there is no other institution that I know of the promotes dignity with freedom

 

There are a lot of them actually, but institutions are not necessary. Morality is formed through a combination of things, including self interest, evolution, the general will of the community, your upbringing, etc...

I like freedom as well as all here but think that dignity should also have a place and a champion.

 

Religions tend to promote anything but human dignity.

 

ask what you would define as dignity and how it pertains to freedom?

 

That's a very complex question. I'd probably need to spend a lot of time and thought on it. I'm not really able or willing to do that at this time FWIW.