Why We Should Attack Moderate Religiosity

[Vigile]

Have you been to Sweden, Greatest I Am? http://www.nytimes.com/2009/02/28/us/28beliefs.html?_r=1

 

They are good examples for sure in some areas.

 

If you read up on what their experience is with prostitution you will get a different picture.

They have excellent information on the continuing inadequacy even under legality.

 

Even a legal prostitution system shows prostitutes to be victims within that trade.

 

I would not make prostitution illegal as those people have enough problems but I do not think it dignified for old men to be fucking each others young daughters.

 

Is that a trade you would wish on your children?

 

Regards

DL

 

How old are you? The US is one of the most religious countries in the world and it has at least as much prostitution, probably more illicit, exponentially more murder, more violent crime, more theft, more human indignity that Sweden will ever have. You aren't looking at facts here you are merely looking to soothe your cognitive dissonance and protect your preconceived notions about how the world works.

[Vigile]

They usually have an influx of male labor and these are quickly followed by prostitutes and drug dealers.

 

And this represents society, the state of nature, what have you how? These jobs typically attract get rich quick types and drifters. What lessons do you hope to draw here about humanity? Your stats teacher would fail you.

[Vigile]

Your system as well as ours has checks and balances.

Take religionists out of it and you lose this check.

 

A complete misunderstanding or misrepresentation of what checks and balances are.

[florduh]

If all moderate religionists disappear then all the above will come to pass

That's some pretty wild, unsubstantiated horseshit.

[Neon Genesis]

 

 

How old are you? The US is one of the most religious countries in the world and it has at least as much prostitution, probably more illicit, exponentially more murder, more violent crime, more theft, more human indignity that Sweden will ever have. You aren't looking at facts here you are merely looking to soothe your cognitive dissonance and protect your preconceived notions about how the world works.

Even in the U.S., the states which have the higest crime rates, abortion rates, teen pregnancy rates, and divorce rates are the most religious states and there have been studies done which show that fundamentalist Christians are more likely to support torture than any other group and the non-religious were the least likely.

[Shyone]

 

2. What is your definition of dignity?

 

To be able to look about and know that man is as good a man as he can be.

 

 

 

 

And we need religion or spiritualism to establish that ? Really ? Somehow, some way, a rational system of philosophy and rational thinking can't help us with that ? There must be some "magical" ingredient ? That secularists and atheists cannot establish or believe in levels of morality that are similar or even better, perhaps, than religionists and spiritualists ? Is this the lofty card you're playing of: "I see more than you plodding materialists" ? Because of idealistic feelings and ideas about how "human culture and humankind" should behave ?

 

It sounds as though you are similar to many religious people I know who fear an world that more and more is separating religious beliefs from how we apply law and respect human dignity. Once again, this seems to be the sentiment we're used to that somehow thinks that non-belief will result in a sort of "anything goes" society. I claim that's bullshit, but we will see what others have to say about it.

 

Hmm.

 

Not quite.

I see religionists as the loyal opposition of secular government.

Your system as well as ours has checks and balances.

Take religionists out of it and you lose this check.

 

Regards

DL

I see a secular government as a check on religious hegemony and theocracy. The government of the US was established as it was to curb abuses of authority by state religions and to avoid "entanglement" of church and state.

 

Religion may be a necessary evil, but not a check on secular government.

[Ouroboros]

Have you been to Sweden, Greatest I Am? http://www.nytimes.com/2009/02/28/us/28beliefs.html?_r=1

 

They are good examples for sure in some areas.

 

If you read up on what their experience is with prostitution you will get a different picture.

They have excellent information on the continuing inadequacy even under legality.

 

Even a legal prostitution system shows prostitutes to be victims within that trade.

 

I would not make prostitution illegal as those people have enough problems but I do not think it dignified for old men to be fucking each others young daughters.

 

Is that a trade you would wish on your children?

 

Regards

DL

Are you saying that prostitution is legal in Sweden?

 

It's actually illegal to pay for sex in Sweden, but, however, it's not illegal to be a prostitute. In other words: they jail the john, but let the hooker walk.

 

In USA, several states jail the hooker as well, and in some states they don't.

 

So what is it that you're comparing here and what is the point?

 

For your information, a survey done in 2005 showed that Sweden had the lowest rate of prostitution out of 34 countries.

 

It worked then, didn't it?

 

http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/nationworld/2004285483_johns16.html

[Ouroboros]

Secular is not anti-religion. Nominal Christians can be seen as secular Christians. It that context it means "worldly." In another context, like society, it means that it doesn't bother about religious issues. An anti-religious government would be on the opposite side of secular. Secular is the middle ground: live and let live. (IMO)

 

Yes to your first comment and no to your live and let live.

 

An example of not letting religion live as it wants would be the blood transfusion forced onto J Ws.

 

Not that I mind but it just goes to show that secular law is the law of the land and the religious are not allowed to go by their laws. A good thing in my view because in many cases, secular law is more just.

 

Unfortunately we lose dignity with that middle ground.

We throw out the baby with the bathwater.

 

Regards

DL

The question was about what "secular" means, not how it is implemented. Two different things.

 

And my "live and let live" comment should be taken as a kinda' statement. I'm not talking in absolutes.

 

A secular law is not a law that intentionally goes against religion. A secular law consider the secular domain of questions and respond to those things first, and if religion suffers because of it, then it's tough luck for religion. But it's not a system that intentionally acts against religion.

 

Turkey is considered a secular society. Even though there is a lot of Islamic influence on the laws.

[Greatest I am]

 

 

Is that a trade you would wish on your children?

 

Regards

DL

What proof do you have that prostitution is a product of atheism?

 

I did not say it was. I may have hinted that secular systems are too easy in accepting it as same old same old without any moral implications.

 

In fact, I have been looking for the information that I skimmed over at one time that shows that much of St Peters cathedral was built by the vatican pimping out prostitutes to pay for it as well as accepting paymet to forgive sins. Unfortunately I cannot find it now.

 

The Greeks had deities and religions they worshiped yet they also had temple prostitution rituals, so your argument that religion leads to a moral society and that prostitution is a product of atheism holds no historical water.

 

See above.

 

Regards

DL

[Greatest I am]

Have you been to Sweden, Greatest I Am? http://www.nytimes.com/2009/02/28/us/28beliefs.html?_r=1

 

They are good examples for sure in some areas.

 

If you read up on what their experience is with prostitution you will get a different picture.

They have excellent information on the continuing inadequacy even under legality.

 

Even a legal prostitution system shows prostitutes to be victims within that trade.

 

I would not make prostitution illegal as those people have enough problems but I do not think it dignified for old men to be fucking each others young daughters.

 

Is that a trade you would wish on your children?

 

Regards

DL

 

How old are you? The US is one of the most religious countries in the world and it has at least as much prostitution, probably more illicit, exponentially more murder, more violent crime, more theft, more human indignity that Sweden will ever have. You aren't looking at facts here you are merely looking to soothe your cognitive dissonance and protect your preconceived notions about how the world works.

 

Thanks for the psychoanalysis. I will file it where I normally file such crap.

 

As to the world, I know to some extent how it works.

 

I too have found it strange that both Canada and the U S almost have the same rules and laws yet the U S is so much more depraved than Canada in terms of what you said.

 

It must be our view of freedom and responsibility. We seem to live up to both of these while you accentuate the first while ignoring the last. That is pure opinion on my part BTW.

 

We also have less corruption, or are smarter and hide it better, at the political level than the U S and a better education system which is key to civilizing a nation.

 

Regards

DL

[Greatest I am]

They usually have an influx of male labor and these are quickly followed by prostitutes and drug dealers.

 

And this represents society, the state of nature, what have you how? These jobs typically attract get rich quick types and drifters. What lessons do you hope to draw here about humanity? Your stats teacher would fail you.

 

That is just a part of our usual way of life.

 

The basic ingredients are in any town.

 

Go any where and jump into a cab and with a nice tip, he will take you to whatever you desire in terms of depravity.

 

How many brothels in your town?

 

Strange that the U S custom in some sectors are to have the fathers introduce sex to their sons in a cat house where in Canada, we prefer our sons to learn how to socialize with those they screw.

 

We consider it a show of lack of social skills to use a hooker for our first sexual experience while you think hookers are good teacher. LOL

 

Regards

DL

[Vigile]

Thanks for the psychoanalysis

 

It wasn't psycho analysis. I thought everyone older than 13 knew that the US was far worse off than Sweden when it comes to crime issues.

 

It must be our view of freedom and responsibility. We seem to live up to both of these while you accentuate the first while ignoring the last.

 

You're point here isn't really clear. I'm unsure what you are referring to. How does freedom and responsibility have anything to do with a comparison between Sweden and the US or Canada if you wish?

 

The debate I responded to is simple. When presented with Sweden as an example of a mostly secular society that does not have the moral problems you suggest would occur were it not for religious moderates holding the line you attempted to paint Sweden as a hot bed of prostitution. The stats just don't back up your position.

We also have less corruption, or are smarter and hide it better, at the political level than the U S and a better education system which is key to civilizing a nation.

 

Agreed.

 

But the bottom line is that the US is a complicated country to analyze. As NG pointed out, religion appears to have a positive correlation with high crime rates. I'm not aware of a statistical study to the effect but it does play out that way at least anecdotally. The US is also a much larger country than Canada, so the melting pot has a larger impact on crime rates due to assimilation issues. The loss of the industrial jobs base has exaggerated this effect. And, as you mentioned, there has been a trend toward an erosion of educational standards and there are in fact statistical studies that find positive correlations between low education and crime rates including violent crime. I would argue that religion in the US is a major contributor to the current low standards of education, both via their efforts to undermine science and via the impact the religious community has on the political process. Religious people tend to vote in demagogues like Bush who end up raping the education system with rote-based standards like no child left behind.

 

I live in secular Russia BTW and while it has its own problems I feel perfectly safe being pretty much anywhere in Moscow or St Petersburg at any time of the day or night. I can't say the same about DC where I lived before I moved here.

[Ouroboros]

I too have found it strange that both Canada and the U S almost have the same rules and laws yet the U S is so much more depraved than Canada in terms of what you said.

Are you sure about that? I thought Canada had a lot more liberties and a culture of more liberal views, even socialized medicine.

[Greatest I am]

 

 

How old are you? The US is one of the most religious countries in the world and it has at least as much prostitution, probably more illicit, exponentially more murder, more violent crime, more theft, more human indignity that Sweden will ever have. You aren't looking at facts here you are merely looking to soothe your cognitive dissonance and protect your preconceived notions about how the world works.

Even in the U.S., the states which have the higest crime rates, abortion rates, teen pregnancy rates, and divorce rates are the most religious states and there have been studies done which show that fundamentalist Christians are more likely to support torture than any other group and the non-religious were the least likely.

 

Not surprising when you consider how much literalist and fundamental logic begins with belief in talking animals and water walking. They are mentally fucked from the word go.

 

Regards

DL

[Greatest I am]

 

2. What is your definition of dignity?

 

To be able to look about and know that man is as good a man as he can be.

 

 

 

 

And we need religion or spiritualism to establish that ? Really ? Somehow, some way, a rational system of philosophy and rational thinking can't help us with that ? There must be some "magical" ingredient ? That secularists and atheists cannot establish or believe in levels of morality that are similar or even better, perhaps, than religionists and spiritualists ? Is this the lofty card you're playing of: "I see more than you plodding materialists" ? Because of idealistic feelings and ideas about how "human culture and humankind" should behave ?

 

It sounds as though you are similar to many religious people I know who fear an world that more and more is separating religious beliefs from how we apply law and respect human dignity. Once again, this seems to be the sentiment we're used to that somehow thinks that non-belief will result in a sort of "anything goes" society. I claim that's bullshit, but we will see what others have to say about it.

 

Hmm.

 

Not quite.

I see religionists as the loyal opposition of secular government.

Your system as well as ours has checks and balances.

Take religionists out of it and you lose this check.

 

Regards

DL

I see a secular government as a check on religious hegemony and theocracy. The government of the US was established as it was to curb abuses of authority by state religions and to avoid "entanglement" of church and state.

 

Religion may be a necessary evil, but not a check on secular government.

 

If Bush is an example then your separation of church and state is a failure.

 

Even Obama had to say he was a believer or risk not being elected. Good separation there friend.

If it worked you would wonder why religious affiliations are the first thing your media looks for when questioning any delegate.

 

Regards

DL

[Vigile]

That is just a part of our usual way of life.

 

The basic ingredients are in any town.

 

I'm arguing that a completely unique demographic is attracted to boom communities. It's not a good way to try and represent society as a whole.

 

How many brothels in your town?

 

In my town, St Petersburg?

 

We consider it a show of lack of social skills to use a hooker for our first sexual experience while you think hookers are good teacher. LOL

 

You've been watching too much American Pie.

[Greatest I am]

Have you been to Sweden, Greatest I Am? http://www.nytimes.com/2009/02/28/us/28beliefs.html?_r=1

 

They are good examples for sure in some areas.

 

If you read up on what their experience is with prostitution you will get a different picture.

They have excellent information on the continuing inadequacy even under legality.

 

Even a legal prostitution system shows prostitutes to be victims within that trade.

 

I would not make prostitution illegal as those people have enough problems but I do not think it dignified for old men to be fucking each others young daughters.

 

Is that a trade you would wish on your children?

 

Regards

DL

Are you saying that prostitution is legal in Sweden?

 

It's actually illegal to pay for sex in Sweden, but, however, it's not illegal to be a prostitute. In other words: they jail the john, but let the hooker walk.

 

In USA, several states jail the hooker as well, and in some states they don't.

 

So what is it that you're comparing here and what is the point?

 

For your information, a survey done in 2005 showed that Sweden had the lowest rate of prostitution out of 34 countries.

 

It worked then, didn't it?

 

http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/nationworld/2004285483_johns16.html

 

As far as I know, Sweden has been the forerunner of sexual liberation with their young and if sex is liberal for most then of course the need for prostitution will be lower.

 

Here or there I would still not want my children to have to join the trade.

Would you?

 

The fact that it is lower just shows that they are more civilized than the rest of us.

 

Regards

DL

[Ouroboros]

As far as I know, Sweden has been the forerunner of sexual liberation with their young and if sex is liberal for most then of course the need for prostitution will be lower.

The statistics shows (very clearly) that the drop came after the law change 10 years ago, not because of the liberal upbringing of people in the 60s.

 

It's not as sexual liberal as you think.

 

I grew up in Sweden, just so you know. I am a Swede, but live in USA since 14 years back.

 

Here or there I would still not want my children to have to join the trade.

Would you?

What the hell does that have to do with anything?

 

There are fewer prostitutes in Sweden than there is in USA. So, do you want your children to be hookers because you live in USA?

 

I was born in Sweden. My wife was born in Sweden. All my kids were born in Sweden. No one of us has become fornicating delinquents or walking the streets.

 

So what's your point?

 

The fact that it is lower just shows that they are more civilized than the rest of us.

The fact is that the change of the law did affect the number of johns to half. That's what the studies, surveys, and observations of real numbers, interviews, arrests, have reported. And not the general attitude by people or their upbringing. (At least the numbers and surveys I've seen point to this.)

[Greatest I am]

Secular is not anti-religion. Nominal Christians can be seen as secular Christians. It that context it means "worldly." In another context, like society, it means that it doesn't bother about religious issues. An anti-religious government would be on the opposite side of secular. Secular is the middle ground: live and let live. (IMO)

 

Yes to your first comment and no to your live and let live.

 

An example of not letting religion live as it wants would be the blood transfusion forced onto J Ws.

 

Not that I mind but it just goes to show that secular law is the law of the land and the religious are not allowed to go by their laws. A good thing in my view because in many cases, secular law is more just.

 

Unfortunately we lose dignity with that middle ground.

We throw out the baby with the bathwater.

 

Regards

DL

The question was about what "secular" means, not how it is implemented. Two different things.

 

And my "live and let live" comment should be taken as a kinda' statement. I'm not talking in absolutes.

 

A secular law is not a law that intentionally goes against religion. A secular law consider the secular domain of questions and respond to those things first, and if religion suffers because of it, then it's tough luck for religion. But it's not a system that intentionally acts against religion.

 

I basically agree but see the odd exception to reverse basic religious laws that has creapt into secular systems.

I E. Obama reversing Bush's law against stem cell research.

 

Turkey is considered a secular society. Even though there is a lot of Islamic influence on the laws.

 

Yes, this is a good example where religious Islamic moderates voted for secular government. It could have gone the other way without the moderates. One kudos for moderates. Right.

I take a point in my argument for this.

 

Regards

DL

[Ouroboros]

Yes, this is a good example where religious Islamic moderates voted for secular government. It could have gone the other way without the moderates. One kudos for moderates. Right.

I take a point in my argument for this.

I fail to understand your arguments and your claim.

 

What is it again?

 

Is it that a secular society hates religion, try to destroy it, and this leads to a rise in prostitutes? Or is your claim that it doesn't? I'm not sure I follow you...

 

For your information, religion is not outlawed in Sweden. There are Lutherans, Catholics, Muslims, Jews, and many, many other practicing religious churches. They even have Islamic mosques. One was built close to where I lived, just before we moved. They can practice their religion just as freely as they do here in USA. And Sweden is considered a secular country.

 

And we went back to Sweden over Christmas. They celebrate Christmas and Easter there. Some people even go to the state church (yes, they do have a state church, but it has been separated from the state since 20 years, but it's still called a state church, go figure). But in general, agnosticism and atheism is much stronger there, and yet I didn't see any freelancing fornicators on the streets. Maybe because it was too cold? I'll check next time we go--it'll be in summer this time.

[Greatest I am]

Thanks for the psychoanalysis

 

It wasn't psycho analysis. I thought everyone older than 13 knew that the US was far worse off than Sweden when it comes to crime issues.

 

It must be our view of freedom and responsibility. We seem to live up to both of these while you accentuate the first while ignoring the last.

 

You're point here isn't really clear. I'm unsure what you are referring to. How does freedom and responsibility have anything to do with a comparison between Sweden and the US or Canada if you wish?

 

The debate I responded to is simple. When presented with Sweden as an example of a mostly secular society that does not have the moral problems you suggest would occur were it not for religious moderates holding the line you attempted to paint Sweden as a hot bed of prostitution. The stats just don't back up your position.

We also have less corruption, or are smarter and hide it better, at the political level than the U S and a better education system which is key to civilizing a nation.

 

Agreed.

 

But the bottom line is that the US is a complicated country to analyze. As NG pointed out, religion appears to have a positive correlation with high crime rates. I'm not aware of a statistical study to the effect but it does play out that way at least anecdotally. The US is also a much larger country than Canada, so the melting pot has a larger impact on crime rates due to assimilation issues. The loss of the industrial jobs base has exaggerated this effect. And, as you mentioned, there has been a trend toward an erosion of educational standards and there are in fact statistical studies that find positive correlations between low education and crime rates including violent crime. I would argue that religion in the US is a major contributor to the current low standards of education, both via their efforts to undermine science and via the impact the religious community has on the political process. Religious people tend to vote in demagogues like Bush who end up raping the education system with rote-based standards like no child left behind.

 

I live in secular Russia BTW and while it has its own problems I feel perfectly safe being pretty much anywhere in Moscow or St Petersburg at any time of the day or night. I can't say the same about DC where I lived before I moved here.

 

I do not recall saying that Sweden was a hot bed of prostitution.

I agree that it is not such.

 

As to the major difference between the U S and Canada, I would thinkj that the main thing that has slowed your civilizing would be from your ancient stance on slavery. It takes generations to get past such a mind set.

Part of it may also be your view of freedom in the sense of the John Wayne type of attitude and vigilaneism.

That speaks to freedom and responsibility.

 

Regards

DL

[Vigile]

As to the major difference between the U S and Canada, I would thinkj that the main thing that has slowed your civilizing would be from your ancient stance on slavery. It takes generations to get past such a mind set.

Part of it may also be your view of freedom in the sense of the John Wayne type of attitude and vigilaneism.

That speaks to freedom and responsibility.

 

Like Ouroboros, I'm having a difficult time understanding exactly what it is you are arguing. You make a strong statement and then you seem to argue something completely different in the response. I'm confused.

 

As to your analysis of the US it seems pretty simplistic. I suspect the answer to why the US and Canada are different is far more complex.

[Greatest I am]

I too have found it strange that both Canada and the U S almost have the same rules and laws yet the U S is so much more depraved than Canada in terms of what you said.

Are you sure about that? I thought Canada had a lot more liberties and a culture of more liberal views, even socialized medicine.

 

I would need an example of our more liberal option to compare. your statement is to open ended.

 

As to socialized medicin; I think that our government is more for the people and less for the corporations that control your government.

 

Less corruption and the buying of votes here. Our government is also simpler to understand than yours and this also leaves less room for corruption by the big corporate players.

 

Regards

DL

[Shyone]

If Bush is an example then your separation of church and state is a failure.

 

Even Obama had to say he was a believer or risk not being elected. Good separation there friend.

If it worked you would wonder why religious affiliations are the first thing your media looks for when questioning any delegate.

 

Regards

DL

The secular standards set by the constitution are intended to prevent religious abuses, not to prevent religious people from holding office. Ideally, with three branches of government working at odds with one another, injection of religion into the workings of the state will be curbed. Unfortunately, when all three align to insert religion despite the constitution, then we get things like "Faith Based Inititatives", In God We Trust on our money and "Under God" in the Pledge of Allegiance.

 

But government also has the means of correcting such things in time by appeals to the Supreme Court. Opinion about religion should not matter, but unfortunately it does.

 

Hence, the state remains the single means of curbing religious abuses even if it does so imperpectly. There is no "check and balance" between religion and state. The state checks religion, and religion is constantly seeking to undermine the state.

[Ouroboros]

As to your analysis of the US it seems pretty simplistic. I suspect the answer to why the US and Canada are different is far more complex.

Agree.

 

Since both you and I have lived in two different countries (even continents), we both can see the difference but also the complexity of everything.

 

I can't say for sure what is the main reason to the differences between Sweden and USA, but I think it does start with culture and tradition. The heritage of mores and values are the basis for people's attitude towards life and society, and society, government, and crime rates will reflect that. But then there's a feedback from laws and government to people's attitudes, values, and mores. It's a circle, where one thing feeds on the other. Just like economy.