The Problem Of Pain

[Overcame Faith]

I recently watched the videos of a debate on Youtube between apologist William Lane Craig and physicist Victor J. Stenger, the author of "God the Failed Hypothesis." The question for the debate was "is there a god." Not surprisingly, one of the issues that came up was the problem with pain. Stenger said that the problem of pain is one of the ways he is certain there is no god because a loving god would not allow children to suffer from pain. Craig said that pain is one of the evidences that there is a god because absent a god there would be no good or evil and pain evidences evil thus pointing to the existence of a god. Craig also said that there may be a divine purpose in pain that we cannot understand.

 

In his closing remarks, I thought Stenger hit a grand slam. These are his verbatim remarks on closing: "Finally, an all good, all powerful, all knowing god, if one existed, he would have the power to comfort a child dying an excrutiating death from leukemia. He chooses not to do so. Is there a person in this room who would not ease that child's suffering given the power? I would do it. Jesus Christ could appear before me and tell me not to do it because it has some ultimate purpose. I would still do it. Even if I faced eternal damnation, I would do it."

 

So I pose the question that Stenger hypothetically posed and answered in his closing remarks. This is to all takers, but especially to Christians. If you were in the situation described by Stenger, would you relieve that child's pain even if Jesus Christ (if he existed) appeared to you and told you not to do it because it has some ultimate purpose and even if you faced eternal damnation if you did ease that child's pain?

 

I'll be the first to answer. I would do it. If this Jesus Christ must use the suffering of a dying child to fulfill his supposed purpose, then that purpose be damned.

[Guest end3]

I recently watched the videos of a debate on Youtube between apologist William Lane Craig and physicist Victor J. Stenger, the author of "God the Failed Hypothesis." The question for the debate was "is there a god." Not surprisingly, one of the issues that came up was the problem with pain. Stenger said that the problem of pain is one of the ways he is certain there is no god because a loving god would not allow children to suffer from pain. Craig said that pain is one of the evidences that there is a god because absent a god there would be no good or evil and pain evidences evil thus pointing to the existence of a god. Craig also said that there may be a divine purpose in pain that we cannot understand.

 

In his closing remarks, I thought Stenger hit a grand slam. These are his verbatim remarks on closing: "Finally, an all good, all powerful, all knowing god, if one existed, he would have the power to comfort a child dying an excrutiating death from leukemia. He chooses not to do so. Is there a person in this room who would not ease that child's suffering given the power? I would do it. Jesus Christ could appear before me and tell me not to do it because it has some ultimate purpose. I would still do it. Even if I faced eternal damnation, I would do it."

 

So I pose the question that Stenger hypothetically posed and answered in his closing remarks. This is to all takers, but especially to Christians. If you were in the situation described by Stenger, would you relieve that child's pain even if Jesus Christ (if he existed) appeared to you and told you not to do it because it has some ultimate purpose and even if you faced eternal damnation if you did ease that child's pain?

 

I'll be the first to answer. I would do it. If this Jesus Christ must use the suffering of a dying child to fulfill his supposed purpose, then that purpose be damned.

 

Did you ever think that that is the express purpose, to exibit our faith in what God calls for, realizing our full potential as good or bad people and then choosing for ourselves the good and loving choice regardless, in the face of the suffering of a dying child? Did the generations before us choose this? Do we always?

[Overcame Faith]

Did you ever think that that is the express purpose, to exibit our faith in what God calls for, realizing our full potential as good or bad people and then choosing for ourselves the good and loving choice regardless, in the face of the suffering of a dying child? Did the generations before us choose this? Do we always?

 

Based on my question, "what God calls for" is not to relieve the child's suffering even though it is within our power to do so. In this scenario, there must be some "purpose" beyond us and in our relieving the child's suffering we are interfering with God's purpose. To this I say, if the only way this god can achieve his purpose is through a child's suffering, then that god lacks imagination given that he is all powerful. He is not limited in how he achieves his purpose and if he chooses to achieve the purpose through the pain and suffering of a child for whom I have the ability to relieve the pain and suffering, then this god does not deserve my devotion to his will and I have no faith in him at all.

 

So, what would you do in this scenario?

[Guest end3]

What would I do? I attempt to remain in faith to God and the actions I understand that supports this faith.

[bornagainathiest]

What would I do? I attempt to remain in faith to God and the actions I understand that supports this faith.

 

Would it be appropriate of me to insert one word into your reply, End? Like this?

 

"I attempt to remain in my faith to God and the actions I understand that supports this faith."

 

This is YOUR faith, were talking about here, right? Not anyone else's?

 

So what matters to YOU isn't the suffering of the dying child? What matters to YOU is YOUR faith. How wonderfully selfless of YOU!

 

BAA.

[Guest end3]

What would I do? I attempt to remain in faith to God and the actions I understand that supports this faith.

 

Would it be appropriate of me to insert one word into your reply, End? Like this?

 

"I attempt to remain in my faith to God and the actions I understand that supports this faith."

 

This is YOUR faith, were talking about here, right? Not anyone else's?

 

So what matters to YOU isn't the suffering of the dying child? What matters to YOU is YOUR faith. How wonderfully selfless of YOU!

 

BAA.

 

No, this is exactly what I am trying to describe. We are UNIFIED in the faith to do the good/loving thing...heal the child. What you just did to me was choose not to select that faith to love and CHOSE through YOUR own faith and to aim at me. Your experience and faith in that probably tells you Christians are selfish, and I agree we are all selfish, but I am understanding that we choose the actions that will bring about the will of God, simply, love your neighbor.

[florduh]

Did you ever think that that is the express purpose, to exibit our faith in what God calls for, blah blah blah

Can't you see how fucked up that concept is? A god that can do anything elects to make a terminal child suffer horribly just to see what the fuck WE are going to do about it? Nothing could be more fucked up than that concept.

[Ouroboros]

Did you ever think that that is the express purpose, to exibit our faith in what God calls for, blah blah blah

Can't you see how fucked up that concept is? A god that can do anything elects to make a terminal child suffer horribly just to see what the fuck WE are going to do about it? Nothing could be more fucked up than that concept.

And since God already knows what we are going to do, why does the child have to go through pain just to prove the point that we're going to do exactly what God already knew we would? Sounds like he's just a prick.

[NotBlinded]

Did you ever think that that is the express purpose, to exibit our faith in what God calls for, blah blah blah

Can't you see how fucked up that concept is? A god that can do anything elects to make a terminal child suffer horribly just to see what the fuck WE are going to do about it? Nothing could be more fucked up than that concept.

And since God already knows what we are going to do, why does the child have to go through pain just to prove the point that we're going to do exactly what God already knew we would? Sounds like he's just a prick.

Jesus Christ...pretty damn pointless isn't it?

[agnosticator]

Did you ever think that that is the express purpose, to exibit our faith in what God calls for, realizing our full potential as good or bad people and then choosing for ourselves the good and loving choice regardless, in the face of the suffering of a dying child?

 

All the replies are astute and on target. The suffering of one child is telling of the Christian God's true character. But more than this one child, are all the countless beings, human and non-human, who have suffered throughout history. The minuscule amount of people who have helped alleviate this staggering amount of suffering, isn't even a drop in the bucket. Not enough alleviation to justify this amount of suffering!

[mwc]

Did you ever think that that is the express purpose, to exibit our faith in what God calls for, realizing our full potential as good or bad people and then choosing for ourselves the good and loving choice regardless, in the face of the suffering of a dying child? Did the generations before us choose this? Do we always?

So the "good and loving *choice*" is obedience and not free will. We must choose to obey a mandate rather than choose to do what we believe is "good and loving." We must choose to "keep the faith" even if it goes against what we might consider to be "good and loving" on the off chance that "keeping the faith" is part of a larger plan. Stupid.

 

mwc

[Sconnor]

Did you ever think that that is the express purpose, to exibit our faith in what God calls for, blah blah blah

Can't you see how fucked up that concept is? A god that can do anything elects to make a terminal child suffer horribly just to see what the fuck WE are going to do about it? Nothing could be more fucked up than that concept.

 

And what about the children who suffered -- throughout history (war, plagues, what have you) where no one was around to do anything about it or make a good and loving choice? So that means thousands upon thousands of children suffered without accomplishing god's supposed glorious plan.

 

Just another example of this all-powerful god being morbidly negligent and masterfully incompetent. What a shitty system!

 

"Who wants to know this DAMNED GOOD AND EVIL AT SUCH A PRICE?" The Brothers Karamazov

 

I'm a little more blunt -- fuck faith!

 

Certainly, god being god -- THE CREATOR OF THE UNIVERSE -- could have found an easier way? He could of created an infinite array of realities, where he could have accomplished everything he wanted to accomplish, without egregious, unthinkable, misery, suffering and pain.

 

--S.

[florduh]

Christians - - - Please bear in mind that my criticism of the suffering child scenario IS NOT being angry with a god who would do such a thing. It is outrage that because of religious indoctrination, an otherwise kind and moral human being could seriously entertain such an idea. This concept is by no means limited to the subject at hand.

 

The distinction is frequently lost on the believer, so I thought a disclaimer might be appropriate.

[Kathlene]

Its an odd question, to be sure. Then again, you are asking the God of the universe, who purposefully sent his own son to die, and knowing the amount of pain he would go through, to bear the weight of our sins, why he would allow pain? Thats even odder.

 

Anyhow, I will answer the question. I am human, if I had the powers to release a child from pain regardless if Jesus told me not to,I would probably still do it. My over-riding sense of my own human understanding, could not fathom letting the child still go in pain. Im not even sure it would be a scenario that Jesus would put us through, but he also knows we are human and subject to all our own spectrum of understanding. I know that when Jesus was walking around he did not heal every single person he came into contact with. Why not? He had the power to do so. There are some verses that allude to why, that confuse me. One about faith, one about how the power came on Jesus to heal. Maybe he didnt always have that power. I remember the story of him sitting in front of the Jewish leaders and it says and there was power in him to heal, so he restored a man's hand and they all got upset over it.

 

Another verse says he did not perform many miracles in certain towns due to their lack of faith. Was that lack of faith that he could heal? or lack of faith that he was their saviour? mmm, not sure.

 

Another scenario that is interesting, was when those men lowered the paralysed man through the roof. Jesus didn't automatically say you are healed. He said your sins are forgiven. To me, that means a whole lot more and weighs more importance than your physical healing. If you have a clean heart on the inside, you are free regardless of what body you are confined to. Then he healed the guy, saying his faith had healed him. Interesting.

 

Pain is horrible and our immediate response is to always be set free from it. I think we are confined to the structure of this world, the ills, the viruses, the bad health choices, the random crap that happens to us. I don't think it is our right to automatically assume God will take those things away from us. Or to blame him when He doesn't. I think loss and grief are unbearable, but I also believe in a redeeming God who can bring healing in our hearts and take us through the journey of grief to a higher place if we allow him to. Sometimes when we are so broken and shattered, it is in that emptiness that we can be filled by god. Job said to God in the storm....I have heard of you,but now I see you. Interesting that he got to see God, in the storm, not when it was all rosy and nice for him. He still saw all the crap he went through, and saw God's presence as higher. Did God heal him at all during his trial? not at all. After the storm he did though. Just my random thoughts on it.

 

I have no doubt 100% if something happened to my son and he died, I would go through a stage of being angry at God and why did it happen?. I feel as though there should be some form of divine protection around him, seeing as I only have the one child. Haha, life doesnt work that way at all. I can't make that assurance. Its in the total uncertainty, the nothingness around us that when I let go, the fear...that I know deep under all that, God would still be there in my life, and would carry me if need be to the place I would need for healing and comfort. He would take me to the next stage of journey in my life, probably with me kicking and screaming, lol...but in the end I would release it to him and find peace. Or I guess, I could stay stuck in that place of pain and anger, and it might lead me down another path of my own finding.

[Dagan]

How come the Christian answers to this question always are long and convoluted and require you to stand on one foot hold your head "just so" to really see the wonderful truth?

[Kathlene]

How come the Christian answers to this question always are long and convoluted and require you to stand on one foot hold your head "just so" to really see the wonderful truth?

 

Its to save myself from having to come back in here again and again to post.

[Guest Valk0010]

If we are made in the image and likeness of god, we all should be really cold assholes.

[Guest Valk0010]

Lovey dubby mindfuck crap

 

I was thinking earlier about the argument, that we don't understand god, so then believe.

 

In the anthro of religion class I took, I realized that all of the tribal religions and the cults like the cargo cults say the same kind of thing.

 

One of the things the teacher kept saying is that, that is one of the ways that religions stick around.

 

The idea that god is mysterious therefore incomprendable is a cop out. It is the excuse to make when someone gets beyond the human explanation. It is called a control factor.

 

 

You find a hole in a religion, you are told the mysterious card. You might as well say a spade is a spade, and its a hole. Because there should be no holes in a perfect religion.

 

You would think Kathlene, ohhh that right I forgot you don't, that if we where made in the image and likeness of god, so many things would not be such a mystery. you would also think, we would never need more then god.

 

I am not saying suffering and a god can't exist together, but back to the stenger challenge, you would think, that if we were made in the image and likeness of god, that god would be more dare I say human in his kindness

 

If the suffering of a child is for a greater plain, then that is cruelty.

 

God is called mysterious when, someone didn't think of a problem there religion could answer.

If we are in the image of god, we should have a the answers. If anything, so those that find a hole could get something more then a non-answer.

 

what happen ti a god that followed logic which in a theist world was god given?

[Hydroman74]

Its an odd question, to be sure. Then again, you are asking the God of the universe, who purposefully sent his own son to die, and knowing the amount of pain he would go through, to bear the weight of our sins, why he would allow pain?

Better yet, why would he make a plan like that? "I need blood so I can forgive." What the hell? "I will send myself down to earth, then I will sacrifice myself to myself so that I can then forgive them without them having to sacrifice other animals....and stuff." Again, what the hell?

 

Anyways, you know what really gets me, well a lot of things really get me, but this really gets me. People are always saying they have a relationship with this creator of the universe. Yet, they do not. How do I know? Because I was one of them.

 

Now, they are always saying, "God told me this, god told me that" or "God gave me peace on this or that" etc. Let me give you an example. My mother-in-law is a hard-praying, strong christian woman of many years. She said that god gave her peace that her youngest daughter wasn't a lesbian. Yet, we all know, except for her, that her daughter is indeed a lesbian. Way to go god!

 

Also, I've heard many christians claim that god told them such and such would happen and yet it did not. Many times! And I'm talking about christians of many years, with a long time relationship with the creator of the universe. And they still can't discern his voice? What the hell? So, if these people can't discern his voice, who actually live for him, how can god expect anyone who doesn't believe in him to change their minds?

 

I asked my dad once, "If god asked you to do such and such, would you do it?" His response? "I'd have to make sure it was god telling me." What? Is god's voice that vague? Do you really have to listen closely to make sure it's the god of the freakin universe talking to you? WHAT THE HELL?

 

I recently spoke with a missionary whom I served with 11 years ago. I brought this up to him. He said, "When you think god speaks something to you concerning a future event, the best thing to do is not say anything and just wait and see if it happens." Are you freakin serious? This coming from a man of god of about 40 years? He still doesn't know god's voice good enough to be able to say 100% that god told him something? You have got to be kidding me.

[Snowflake]

Its an odd question, to be sure. Then again, you are asking the God of the universe, who purposefully sent his own son to die, and knowing the amount of pain he would go through, to bear the weight of our sins, why he would allow pain?

Better yet, why would he make a plan like that? "I need blood so I can forgive." What the hell? "I will send myself down to earth, then I will sacrifice myself to myself so that I can then forgive them without them having to sacrifice other animals....and stuff." Again, what the hell?

 

That even bothered me when I was a christian. God made the rules to begin with, so why did he make this one, the blood sacrifice of his only son/himself? And if we're to believe that the historical Jesus existed and suffered and died, his death on the cross, if I'm remembering this correctly, was not as brutal as many of the other crucifixions were. He was on the cross for a period of hours, not days as others were known to last, as they suffered in agony.

 

I can't imagine not relieving the pain of a dying child. I can't imagine a loving God having any sort of higher purpose in allowing a child to die in agony. I can't think any possible good that could come out of it. Not one thing that would be worth the suffering of a child.

[skepticalme]

 

Did you ever think that that is the express purpose, to exibit our faith in what God calls for, realizing our full potential as good or bad people and then choosing for ourselves the good and loving choice regardless, in the face of the suffering of a dying child? Did the generations before us choose this? Do we always?

 

Did you ever think that "purpose" is something anyone can superimpose onto anything. By applying that word you can transform even the most vile meaningless acts into divinely inspired acts of benevolence. You could take a world where everything happened chaotically without a higher meaning and call every event in that world "purposeful" and you would have an instant god responsible for everything who had a plan that was beyond our understanding.

[Deva]

So I pose the question that Stenger hypothetically posed and answered in his closing remarks. This is to all takers, but especially to Christians. If you were in the situation described by Stenger, would you relieve that child's pain even if Jesus Christ (if he existed) appeared to you and told you not to do it because it has some ultimate purpose and even if you faced eternal damnation if you did ease that child's pain?

 

I'll be the first to answer. I would do it. If this Jesus Christ must use the suffering of a dying child to fulfill his supposed purpose, then that purpose be damned.

 

Purpose be damned indeed. Is an unknown purpose better than no purpose? I say it is not better, in fact it is worse.

 

It is better to consider the circumstances of this life as arbitrary, capricious and impersonal. They are the result of a long chain of causes none of us can trace. If you start speculating about purpose, then things become much more problematic. Throw an almighty God into the equation and you have an even more troubling scenario.

[agnosticator]

I think we are confined to the structure of this world, the ills, the viruses, the bad health choices, the random crap that happens to us.

 

...and people's stupid, life-destroying acts. This is reality. The Christian God doesn't fit within it. The rest of what you say is fantasy. To be consistent, the God of all this would be the Deist's God, or some other similar "hands off" God concept.

[Ouroboros]

Its an odd question, to be sure. Then again, you are asking the God of the universe, who purposefully sent his own son to die, and knowing the amount of pain he would go through, to bear the weight of our sins, why he would allow pain? Thats even odder.

Are you asking if it's odd to ask the question, or do you admit that the question brings up a very odd issue? It is odd that God supposedly gives pain to humanity and then present some kind of human-sacrifice solution to get rid of it... or actually, not get rid of it, but give some kind of gold-ticket for the special elect to go to an infinite and eternal bliss.

 

Anyhow, I will answer the question. I am human, if I had the powers to release a child from pain regardless if Jesus told me not to,I would probably still do it. My over-riding sense of my own human understanding, could not fathom letting the child still go in pain. Im not even sure it would be a scenario that Jesus would put us through, but he also knows we are human and subject to all our own spectrum of understanding. I know that when Jesus was walking around he did not heal every single person he came into contact with.

He never healed anyone because they're all just stories.

 

Why not? He had the power to do so. There are some verses that allude to why, that confuse me. One about faith, one about how the power came on Jesus to heal.

That's the one where he's in his hometown. He couldn't heal many because they didn't believe he was sent by God.

 

Mind readers and crystal ball readers have the same problem. If you doubt their abilities, they can't perform. It takes only one doubter in the audience and the whole miracle fails. It shows that doubt is a far much stronger power than faith. You can have 10,000 believers and one doubter and the miracle is gone.

 

Maybe he didnt always have that power. I remember the story of him sitting in front of the Jewish leaders and it says and there was power in him to heal, so he restored a man's hand and they all got upset over it.

Or he had the same powers as magicians. It had to be at his terms, at the right place, at the right time, after he had prepared and set up all the things that needed to be there beforehand, like hidden strings and such.

 

Another verse says he did not perform many miracles in certain towns due to their lack of faith. Was that lack of faith that he could heal? or lack of faith that he was their saviour? mmm, not sure.

It was the people that knew him from childhood. They didn't believe he was sent by God or could do miracles... therefore he couldn't do miracles. Put it this way, they were skeptical and he couldn't use the sleight-of-hand tricks since they watched everything he did. God can only do miracles about the gullible people. Only those who expect a miracle and won't dare question the trickery, will experience the miraculous. Just like how some of the faith healers have done it in our time (they fool you).

 

Another scenario that is interesting, was when those men lowered the paralysed man through the roof. Jesus didn't automatically say you are healed. He said your sins are forgiven. To me, that means a whole lot more and weighs more importance than your physical healing. If you have a clean heart on the inside, you are free regardless of what body you are confined to. Then he healed the guy, saying his faith had healed him. Interesting.

It's even better when you fully understand what sin is and what it isn't.

 

The sins he was forgiven for was the sinful acts in his life. In other words, people are burdened by guilt, and it is a psychological thing. People can be sick because of guilt. To give them the rest of mind by absolving them, will help them. And I can tell you're suffering guilt as well, and that's why you need religion to comfort you.

 

I can tell you, I don't feel the burned of sin. Which is awesome! I'm truly free from the shackles. It doesn't mean I don't do stupid things now and then, or that I regret some things I've done, but I'm not held down or filled by guilt. And it's very liberating. However, I didn't need Jesus to get there...

[Ouroboros]

Pain is horrible and our immediate response is to always be set free from it.

And we can see the exact same behavior (or need) in many kinds of animals. Have you ever wondered why God gave them the sense of pain and suffering if they're just here to be our slaves and food?

 

I think we are confined to the structure of this world, the ills, the viruses, the bad health choices, the random crap that happens to us. I don't think it is our right to automatically assume God will take those things away from us. Or to blame him when He doesn't.

That's just a very, very small part of the problem statement in this thread.

 

The question isn't why God doesn't take away pain from me, a middle-class, middle-aged jerk, who's in pain from dropping a keyboard on his toe, or pain in his tooth because some piece chipped away.

 

No, the question is who God finds it necessary to allow small children to suffer, and especially children who can't defend themselves or are in a situation they can't get out from. Why are some (or many) children suffering? Is it to prove how evil we are? We can do something, but don't, and that's God's master plan? Let them die in severe pain just to show how good he is by letting us be displayed as evil? Sounds very sinister. His master plan is working great. I've noticed how much people have changed because of this the last 10,000 years... Some day now, it will work fully... just a few more children under some rubble from some earthquake and we'll solve all problems.

 

But wait, there are organizations working on this. There are governments who wants to help the starving, poor, and sick. And it's fascinating that when a government decides to bring help to these people... they're called socialists and communists and they are from the devil!

 

The hardcore Southern Baptists could actually take a step in the right direction and support a health system which would help every sick, starving, and homeless. But... that would mean they would have to side with Satan's Democrats. Too sad. God works in mysterious ways.

 

I think loss and grief are unbearable, but I also believe in a redeeming God who can bring healing in our hearts and take us through the journey of grief to a higher place if we allow him to. Sometimes when we are so broken and shattered, it is in that emptiness that we can be filled by god.

And when it doesn't?

 

Part of my de-conversion was that I didn't feel God fill the emptiness. Religion only reinforced that feeling. De-conversion freed me, and finally could fill my empty glass again, with life!

 

 

Job said to God in the storm....I have heard of you,but now I see you. Interesting that he got to see God, in the storm, not when it was all rosy and nice for him. He still saw all the crap he went through, and saw God's presence as higher. Did God heal him at all during his trial? not at all. After the storm he did though. Just my random thoughts on it.

And you know that Job's problems started when God made a bet with the Devil. God was gambling with a man's life and family, just to convince Satan. God even let Satan kill members of his family, animals, and workers. Pfft. Who cares about them? It was all about shoving it in Satan's face and play with Job as a pawn. God is great!!!

 

I have no doubt 100% if something happened to my son and he died, I would go through a stage of being angry at God and why did it happen?. I feel as though there should be some form of divine protection around him, seeing as I only have the one child. Haha, life doesnt work that way at all. I can't make that assurance. Its in the total uncertainty, the nothingness around us that when I let go, the fear...that I know deep under all that, God would still be there in my life, and would carry me if need be to the place I would need for healing and comfort.

I was saying the same thing... before it almost happened for real, then things started to change inside.

 

I was certain I would never leave Jesus or stop believing, until things happened.

 

It's very easy to judge, when you haven't experienced it. I'm supposed to believe because you feel like God exists. But you won't accept that I don't believe because I've gone through the experience and motions of realizing that God does not comfort your feelings or interact with reality. Nope. My experience should not lead me, but instead, I should allow your experiences and beliefs become mine. Because your experiences are real, and mine are not. I shouldn't trust myself or my reality, but instead I should trust you and your belief. Right?

 

He would take me to the next stage of journey in my life, probably with me kicking and screaming, lol...

"He" took me to the next stage of my journey, the one were I realized that God isn't at all what I thought.

 

but in the end I would release it to him and find peace. Or I guess, I could stay stuck in that place of pain and anger, and it might lead me down another path of my own finding.

Or you could get rid of the pain and anger by realizing that the real source of it is religion and belief in imaginary beings who someone magically touch you with pixie-dust when you talk to them.