The Problem Of Pain

[Guest end3]

Did you ever think that that is the express purpose, to exibit our faith in what God calls for, blah blah blah

Can't you see how fucked up that concept is? A god that can do anything elects to make a terminal child suffer horribly just to see what the fuck WE are going to do about it? Nothing could be more fucked up than that concept.

 

How is it not right to believe in doing the loving thing is correct? If you don't believe in something bigger, fine. Grumpy old bastard.

[Guest end3]

Did you ever think that that is the express purpose, to exibit our faith in what God calls for, realizing our full potential as good or bad people and then choosing for ourselves the good and loving choice regardless, in the face of the suffering of a dying child?

 

All the replies are astute and on target. The suffering of one child is telling of the Christian God's true character. But more than this one child, are all the countless beings, human and non-human, who have suffered throughout history. The minuscule amount of people who have helped alleviate this staggering amount of suffering, isn't even a drop in the bucket. Not enough alleviation to justify this amount of suffering!

 

 

Let's suppose it is true...the complete story, Adam, Eve, Moses, Noah and the Ark.....the whole enchilada. Now people are whining because he is NOT compassionate in the face of suffering. Which is it?

[florduh]

How is it not right to believe in doing the loving thing is correct? If you don't believe in something bigger, fine. Grumpy old bastard.

That is not even close to what I said. You are trying to sidestep my point.

 

Grumpy Old Bastard is correct, and thanks for noticing.

[Guest end3]

Christians - - - Please bear in mind that my criticism of the suffering child scenario IS NOT being angry with a god who would do such a thing. It is outrage that because of religious indoctrination, an otherwise kind and moral human being could seriously entertain such an idea. This concept is by no means limited to the subject at hand.

 

The distinction is frequently lost on the believer, so I thought a disclaimer might be appropriate.

Complete bullshit.....see history of the world.

[Ouroboros]

Christians - - - Please bear in mind that my criticism of the suffering child scenario IS NOT being angry with a god who would do such a thing. It is outrage that because of religious indoctrination, an otherwise kind and moral human being could seriously entertain such an idea. This concept is by no means limited to the subject at hand.

 

The distinction is frequently lost on the believer, so I thought a disclaimer might be appropriate.

Complete bullshit.....see history of the world.

WTH??? Your response has nothing to do with what Florduh said... or am I missing something here???

[florduh]

Complete bullshit.....see history of the world.

Do you mean the Mel Brooks movie?

 

If not, what does the history of the world have to do with my personal intent and meaning?

[florduh]

WTH??? Your response has nothing to do with what Florduh said... or am I missing something here???

Get used to it. I have.

[Ouroboros]

WTH??? Your response has nothing to do with what Florduh said... or am I missing something here???

Get used to it. I have.

It's so weird... most of the time the Christian answers gives me the feeling I'm in the twilight zone. Sometimes they sound like random-word-response-generator robots. No real thought. Just accidental phrases.

[Dagan]

WTH??? Your response has nothing to do with what Florduh said... or am I missing something here???

Get used to it. I have.

It's so weird... most of the time the Christian answers gives me the feeling I'm in the twilight zone. Sometimes they sound like random-word-response-generator robots. No real thought. Just accidental phrases.

 

Maybe End is the latest version of Dr. Sbaitso... the conversations are about the same quality.

[agnosticator]

Did you ever think that that is the express purpose, to exibit our faith in what God calls for, realizing our full potential as good or bad people and then choosing for ourselves the good and loving choice regardless, in the face of the suffering of a dying child?

 

All the replies are astute and on target. The suffering of one child is telling of the Christian God's true character. But more than this one child, are all the countless beings, human and non-human, who have suffered throughout history. The minuscule amount of people who have helped alleviate this staggering amount of suffering, isn't even a drop in the bucket. Not enough alleviation to justify this amount of suffering!

 

 

Let's suppose it is true...the complete story, Adam, Eve, Moses, Noah and the Ark.....the whole enchilada. Now people are whining because he is NOT compassionate in the face of suffering. Which is it?

 

Are you saying He was compassionate in "the complete story"? I WAS "supposing it is true". Compassion in the face of suffering created by Himself is absent, because He created evil and suffering by His command in the first place. Allowing vast amounts of pain is not made up for in heaven, since most are condemned anyway, reserved for more pain. Besides, there was no point to the pain, except Divine cruelty.

 

What "now" do you refer to when He is NOT?

[Ouroboros]

Are you saying He was compassionate in "the complete story"? I WAS "supposing it is true". Compassion in the face of suffering created by Himself is absent, because He created evil and suffering by His command in the first place. Allowing vast amounts of pain is not made up for in heaven, since most are condemned anyway, reserved for more pain. Besides, there was no point to the pain, except Divine cruelty.

 

What "now" do you refer to when He is NOT?

That's right. God created a sinful human, let him spawn all over the world, then decided to drown 10 million people just to save one family, and that was a good act of God.

 

I wonder about the people living too far away from Noah to hear anything about his preaching. I mean, they weren't even given the chance to be saved. How can some far away little family in some desolate place be so sinful that they must die, with kids and everything? God is good? Again, God is jerk.

[Guest end3]

I was understanding the grumpy old man as saying that religion has gotten in the way of the option of being that good/loving person.

 

I was saying that the history of the world reflects the option of good and loving??? And the morality that we live under wasn't directly effected by Christianity and yet you fail to consider this evidence? WTH right back at y'all.

 

Hans, you don't have more compassion for the quadraplegic in a public setting, the difficulties?

Scott, you don't have more compassion for the child with cancer.

Grumpy old man, you don't more compassion for someone elses Black Betty broken on the side of the road?

 

Would each of you be at that level of compassion had the you not been able to identify with the pain?

[Ouroboros]

I have a lot of compassion for people who are quadriplegic since I have a son who is paraplegic. I know the pain and suffering that person has, and all the obstacles they have to go through to just eat, read, or pick up a dropped thing on the floor. So I have a lot of compassion for them. Does God? Haven't seen God much around lately to help them. Have you? When did God pick up a book from the floor last? When did God empty a colostomy back? When did God do a crede maneuver? When did God help them in or out a wheelchair? I have done it more than I can count. I have been up at nights cleaning after a popped bag. Where was God? He took a rest somewhere, thought I could handle it alone. God is great. He's swell. Such a sweet guy. He just doesn't give a fuck about us humans.

 

The greatest pain is to see them in pain. The whole thing isn't about me, me, me... it's about them, them, them.

 

Do you seriously think that my son somehow has more compassion for other paraplegics because of his condition and that was somehow a greater thing for humanity and his future? He's an atheist too. He's going to Hell, with me. God is awesome.

 

You see, my pain was no, and is not, in the things I have to do or go through, but what I see these people who are suffering have to go through. I feel it is wrong that I have a good life, and they suffer. But I can't take the suffering away because it requires a miracle, literally. Does it come? No. God doesn't do that, because it could accidentally convince them and me about his existence. And why would God want to do that? It would be terrible if we suddenly saw a miracle from God and converted to your special brand of religion. *shudder* We'd have to go to Heaven as penalty...

[Guest end3]

I have a lot of compassion for people who are quadriplegic since I have a son who is paraplegic. I know the pain and suffering that person has, and all the obstacles they have to go through to just eat, read, or pick up a dropped thing on the floor. So I have a lot of compassion for them. Does God? Haven't seen God much around lately to help them. Have you? When did God pick up a book from the floor last? When did God empty a colostomy back? When did God do a crede maneuver? When did God help them in or out a wheelchair? I have done it more than I can count. I have been up at nights cleaning after a popped bag. Where was God? He took a rest somewhere, thought I could handle it alone. God is great. He's swell. Such a sweet guy. He just doesn't give a fuck about us humans.

 

The greatest pain is to see them in pain. The whole thing isn't about me, me, me... it's about them, them, them.

 

Do you seriously think that my son somehow has more compassion for other paraplegics because of his condition and that was somehow a greater thing for humanity and his future? He's an atheist too. He's going to Hell, with me. God is awesome.

 

Your not giving any weight to the complete story. We, at this moment in time, would be God, throught Christ.

 

If Adam and Eve wouldn't have jumped off into the world of sin, then what do you think the outcome would have been?

 

And if it is a myth, then why does it have a presumed future to it? Christ coming back? Would a myth have such?

 

It doesn't make me a rat's ass, believe what you want, but try to give some weight to the things that ARE obivious, like pain refining our compassion.

[florduh]

Would each of you be at that level of compassion had the you not been able to identify with the pain?

You're veering away from addressing the reaction people had to your response about a god using an innocent's pain to test the rest of us. Non-Christians wouldn't come up with such a cruel and needless scenario.

 

I get the idea that Jesus suffering as a human was necessary for God to relate better to us (though ostensibly he is omniscient and also our creator). That is also an absurd notion, but another topic. At least I think that's one of your contentions. I could be wrong about that.

[Guest end3]

Would each of you be at that level of compassion had the you not been able to identify with the pain?

You're veering away from addressing the reaction people had to your response about a god using an innocent's pain to test the rest of us. Non-Christians wouldn't come up with such a cruel and needless scenario.

 

I get the idea that Jesus suffering as a human was necessary for God to relate better to us (though ostensibly he is omniscient and also our creator). That is also an absurd notion, but another topic. At least I think that's one of your contentions. I could be wrong about that.

 

That has crossed my mind, could infinite identify with finite? I don't know the answer to "why the plan"? Seems as tthough God fucked up with Satan. Was that why He left A&E in a half-knowing state? Was it the plan for humans to overcome through knowing their full potential and chosing good anyhow?

 

It's like The Crying Game...how can you pass judgement until you have seen the end?

[Ouroboros]

 

Your not giving any weight to the complete story. We, at this moment in time, would be God, throught Christ.

I agree that we're God. And through Christ would be more of a symbolic reference, the kind of being we're supposed to become.

 

If Adam and Eve wouldn't have jumped off into the world of sin, then what do you think the outcome would have been?

A world without Hell, and God talking to humans face-to-face.

 

And if it is a myth, then why does it have a presumed future to it? Christ coming back? Would a myth have such?

Presumed future? In what sense?

 

It doesn't make me a rat's ass, believe what you want, but try to give some weight to the things that ARE obivious, like pain refining our compassion.

What compassion does a child feel when it feels the pain?

 

Try to understand that argument before you start throwing strawmans at it.

 

The argument is not about my pain. Not at all.

 

It's about that person's pain, or the child's pain, or the fetuses pain, or the dog's pain...

 

It's not about me. I can take pain. I broke my arm last year and were scratched up pretty badly. They gave me vicodin to cope with the pain. I never touched it. Not even Advil. I like feel and know the pain. So it's definitely not about what my physical body feels.

 

But this question is about a child who doesn't know A from B. A child feeling pain, and perhaps even dying during the process. What compassion does that child feel towards their surroundings?

 

---

 

Let's look at some real life example.

 

Here's an article about some real things going on right now.

African Children Denounced As "Witches" By Christian Pastors.

 

These kids are tortured because they are witches. Of course they're witches. Christians know witches exists, and of course if something goes wrong, it must because the kids are evil. So let's torture them!

 

That's what is going on. Now, tell me that these poor kids are tortured with acid and beatings, and even killed, just for the purpose so you and I can feel compassion.

 

But wait, maybe because they're not "Real Christians," it's okay? Or is this kind of pain and suffering really part of God's good plan?

[Overcame Faith]

Its an odd question, to be sure.

 

It's not really such an odd question. We often hear Christians say that though we cannot understand why God allows pain and suffering, he must have a higher purpose for it. In this scenario, Jesus appears to someone who could stop the pain and suffering of this child but is told by Jesus not to do it. Obviously, the purpose does not include relieving the child's pain and in relieving it we are thwarting the divine purpose. If we are to believe that god exists and has the power to relieve suffering but does not and, indeed, allows children to die horrible deaths, then the suffering and the death of that child must be for a divine purpose. The question then is designed to make you think of whether it even makes sense that god would have a divine purpose which involves the death and suffering of innocent children and whether Christians really believe that there can be such a purpose. It seems to me that if a Christian really believed such a thing, then their answer would have to be that they would obey Jesus and have faith in his purpose and thus allow the child to continue to suffer. To answer otherwise is to admit that you really do not believe that god can have a divine purpose in the suffering of an innocent child.

 

I agree that there is no divine purpose in pain and suffering. But too many Christians really believe there may be. Many Christians would say something like look at the bigger picture and put it in perspective. Though there may be pain and suffering in this lifetime, the child in the scenario will be immediately transported to heaven for eternity once he dies and then his pain and suffering will be erased for all eternity. It is this kind of thinking that makes it too easy to do little or nothing during our lifetimes to really try to ease suffering. If you know there is no god and no afterlife, then your mandate to relieve suffering now becomes much, much stronger since this is the only life we get and the only life the suffering have also. Rather than spending money building bigger and fancier church buildings, that money could go to something that would really help relieve suffering like looking for a cure for cancer or feeding the hungry. Rather than sending missionaries to Africa to build churches so people can read the Bible and learn about witches and accuse children of being witches, spend money helping them build a better life and learning how to grow food and get medical attention.

 

The problem of pain does not prove there is a god, but demonstrates that there is not one. The Stenger scenario helps us to see the absurdity of such a proposition and should be a way to motivate us all to forget the nonsense of a divine purpose for suffering and work harder to relieve it.

[Sconnor]

Scott, you don't have more compassion for the child with cancer.

 

No. I see no discernible change. I have the same level of compassion I had before my son suffered and died. My life didn't change that way. I will have NOTHING to do with kids and cancer. I don't even like going past Children's Hospital.

 

Furthermore if (IF) it's god's plan to make people more compassionate by putting a plan into motion where little children suffer egregiously -- the sadistic little motherfucker can fuck off!

 

Additionally, what about ALL the people throughout life who didn't become more compassionate after someone suffered? Didn't your -- almighty god -- consider that hundreds of thousands (millions) of individuals didn't become more compassionate and instead became bitter, dejected, mentally crippled, incapacitated, gave up on life, committed suicide? Again, what a dumb-ass shitty plan!

 

Or what of a family who ALL suffered through some great calamity, only to die, never to be more compassionate? This plan is ineffectual, as well as being morbidly negligent.

 

Your justification of suffering is impotent as well as ridiculous!

 

How is your argument tenable in light of what I said above?

 

--S.

[Guest end3]

No. I see no discernible change. I have the same level of compassion I had before my son suffered and died. My life didn't change that way. I will have NOTHING to do with kids and cancer. I don't even like going past Children's Hospital.

 

I seriously doubt that Scott.....I am sure you would drop what you were doing in a heartbeat to help.

 

Additionally, what about ALL the people throughout life who didn't become more compassionate after someone suffered? Didn't your -- almighty god -- consider that hundreds of thousands (millions) of individuals didn't become more compassionate and instead became bitter, dejected, mentally crippled, incapacitated, gave up on life, committed suicide? Again, what a dumb-ass shitty plan!

 

That's why Jesus is the judge. I am understanding the plan is to remain consistant in love, in Him.

[Guest end3]

I agree that we're God. And through Christ would be more of a symbolic reference, the kind of being we're supposed to become.

 

So, within the context of the story, humanity being God/Christ at the present, why do you blame God for not showing up in some omni-form?

 

And if it is a myth, then why does it have a presumed future to it? Christ coming back? Would a myth have such?

Presumed future? In what sense?

 

There are many, many, many Christians that are expecting Christ to return....as mentioned in Revelation. That sense. Why does a myth have a future?

 

What compassion does a child feel when it feels the pain?

Faith in humanity, faith in family? Love?

 

It's about that person's pain, or the child's pain, or the fetuses pain, or the dog's pain...

I hear you, and I agree that in a very mature sense, our love truly reaches past ourselves. I think that is something we need to remind ourselves of often.

 

But this question is about a child who doesn't know A from B. A child feeling pain, and perhaps even dying during the process. What compassion does that child feel towards their surroundings?

 

I have often heard stories of dying children comforting the ones surrounding them? Is this what you are asking?

 

---

 

Let's look at some real life example.

 

Here's an article about some real things going on right now.

African Children Denounced As "Witches" By Christian Pastors.

 

These kids are tortured because they are witches. Of course they're witches. Christians know witches exists, and of course if something goes wrong, it must because the kids are evil. So let's torture them!

 

That's what is going on. Now, tell me that these poor kids are tortured with acid and beatings, and even killed, just for the purpose so you and I can feel compassion.

 

But wait, maybe because they're not "Real Christians," it's okay? Or is this kind of pain and suffering really part of God's good plan?

 

No, I don't believe it's ok. But the fact that child abuse happens doesn't lead you to keep making the right choices?

[Ouroboros]

There are many, many, many Christians that are expecting Christ to return....as mentioned in Revelation. That sense. Why does a myth have a future?

The Islamic myth is that Mohammad will come back one day, born by a man. (Through a miracle by Allah)

 

The Asatru believed that the end would end in a final battle: Ragnarök.

 

2012 is the Mayan apocalypse, haven't you heard?

 

And so on... Many religions have revelations about the future.

 

So what's your point?

 

I have often heard stories of dying children comforting the ones surrounding them? Is this what you are asking?

No. The "problem of pain" is regarding the use of pain. I can see that pain causes some positive effects in some cases, like a baby dies in extreme pain and the nurses and doctors in the hospital feel helpless and empathetic towards the child (even though it doesn't help the child).

 

But in the cases when some kid is suffering pain, alone, away from everyone to care for them. This happens. So what is the use of that pain? A child, left to his own pain and death, what kind of positive effect comes from that situation?

 

No, I don't believe it's ok. But the fact that child abuse happens doesn't lead you to keep making the right choices?

Sigh... So the pain those children feel is good because?...

[skepticalme]

 

And if it is a myth, then why does it have a presumed future to it? Christ coming back? Would a myth have such?

 

Lots of myths do. There is this one that says a fat guy in a red suit and beard will break into your house on Dec. 24-25, 2010 and will continue to do so the same day every year thereafter. There's another that says the world will end in 2012. These give specific dates to their presumed futures but it doesn't make them true. Lots of myths revolve around a hero returning to right some injustice or waiting to fulfill some destiny. Its just that almost all of those are excepted as fiction and are told in the past tense, "A long, long time ago, in a land/galaxy far, far away" that sort of thing.

[Guest end3]

But in the cases when some kid is suffering pain, alone, away from everyone to care for them. This happens. So what is the use of that pain? A child, left to his own pain and death, what kind of positive effect comes from that situation?

 

If it remains unknown, I can't imagine much good comes from it.

[Ouroboros]

But in the cases when some kid is suffering pain, alone, away from everyone to care for them. This happens. So what is the use of that pain? A child, left to his own pain and death, what kind of positive effect comes from that situation?

 

If it remains unknown, I can't imagine much good comes from it.

Right. I don't think it does either.

 

You see, that's the problem. Here you have an unsolved evil in the world. An evil, pain in a child, which doesn't lead to anything good. No one can help the child. Not even God? Where does free will come in here? A child that didn't choose to be in pain, but yet is, and suffer alone. Are we to suppose that Heaven as the reward is the only good? If that's true, then why not just drop the bombs and let's all go to Heaven? Why is it that God decided that it's good to stay here for some and good to die for some?