The Problem Of Pain

[Guest end3]

But in the cases when some kid is suffering pain, alone, away from everyone to care for them. This happens. So what is the use of that pain? A child, left to his own pain and death, what kind of positive effect comes from that situation?

 

If it remains unknown, I can't imagine much good comes from it.

Right. I don't think it does either.

 

You see, that's the problem. Here you have an unsolved evil in the world. An evil, pain in a child, which doesn't lead to anything good. No one can help the child. Not even God? Where does free will come in here? A child that didn't choose to be in pain, but yet is, and suffer alone. Are we to suppose that Heaven as the reward is the only good? If that's true, then why not just drop the bombs and let's all go to Heaven? Why is it that God decided that it's good to stay here for some and good to die for some?

 

The child that dies alone would to me be the height of evil, and stay with me, but back to the story, why wouldn't this be "heaven" for Satan? The difference in the bomb vs. the plan would be that through the plan, we would overcome the evil. By offing ourselves, I see that this gives Satan a check in the win column. Although that seems to be an avenue of faith in God, I would think that it circumvents Christ in methodology. And in fact, Christ asks us to "die" to ourselves in faith to God.

[Shyone]

The child that dies alone would to me be the height of evil, and stay with me, but back to the story, why wouldn't this be "heaven" for Satan? The difference in the bomb vs. the plan would be that through the plan, we would overcome the evil. By offing ourselves, I see that this gives Satan a check in the win column. Although that seems to be an avenue of faith in God, I would think that it circumvents Christ in methodology. And in fact, Christ asks us to "die" to ourselves in faith to God.

I can understand positing another supernatural being, but if Satan can "win" then what good are prayers, and what does that say about omnipotence and free will?

 

To put it differently, if God is so indifferent to life, then why all the promises in both the old and new testaments?

 

You might as well make a new religion based on behavior alone. Rewards to come after death - good for good behavior, bad for bad behavior.

 

Oh, wait, we've already got that.

[Phanta]

It's like The Crying Game...how can you pass judgement until you have seen the end?

 

Because I am alive in this moment. I don't believe you are waiting until the end to make your choice (i.e. pass judgment). So, tell me, how can you pass judgment until you have seen the end?

 

Phanta

[Phanta]

What would I do? I attempt to remain in faith to God and the actions I understand that supports this faith.

 

Would it be appropriate of me to insert one word into your reply, End? Like this?

 

"I attempt to remain in my faith to God and the actions I understand that supports this faith."

 

This is YOUR faith, were talking about here, right? Not anyone else's?

 

So what matters to YOU isn't the suffering of the dying child? What matters to YOU is YOUR faith. How wonderfully selfless of YOU!

 

BAA.

 

No, this is exactly what I am trying to describe. We are UNIFIED in the faith to do the good/loving thing...heal the child. What you just did to me was choose not to select that faith to love and CHOSE through YOUR own faith and to aim at me. Your experience and faith in that probably tells you Christians are selfish, and I agree we are all selfish, but I am understanding that we choose the actions that will bring about the will of God, simply, love your neighbor.

 

What actions would you take in this scenario with the child, End? What actions support your understanding?

 

Phanta

[Guest end3]

It's like The Crying Game...how can you pass judgement until you have seen the end?

 

Because I am alive in this moment. I don't believe you are waiting until the end to make your choice (i.e. pass judgment). So, tell me, how can you pass judgment until you have seen the end?

 

Phanta

 

I see it Phanta as people defining the end of the movie without finishing the movie...our lives being the movie. I don't rule out God before the movie is over. Remaining faithful to an idea doesn't seem equal to totally ruling out the idea. Remaining in evidence gathering mode is different than writing the conclusion.

[Guest end3]

What would I do? I attempt to remain in faith to God and the actions I understand that supports this faith.

 

Would it be appropriate of me to insert one word into your reply, End? Like this?

 

"I attempt to remain in my faith to God and the actions I understand that supports this faith."

 

This is YOUR faith, were talking about here, right? Not anyone else's?

 

So what matters to YOU isn't the suffering of the dying child? What matters to YOU is YOUR faith. How wonderfully selfless of YOU!

 

BAA.

 

No, this is exactly what I am trying to describe. We are UNIFIED in the faith to do the good/loving thing...heal the child. What you just did to me was choose not to select that faith to love and CHOSE through YOUR own faith and to aim at me. Your experience and faith in that probably tells you Christians are selfish, and I agree we are all selfish, but I am understanding that we choose the actions that will bring about the will of God, simply, love your neighbor.

 

What actions would you take in this scenario with the child, End? What actions support your understanding?

 

Phanta

 

I think it's a silly scenario P....the Stengler thing places a new command that would supercede what is written to my knowledge. I would have to go through the experience of Jesus appearing to give you an answer.

[Shyone]

It's like The Crying Game...how can you pass judgement until you have seen the end?

 

Because I am alive in this moment. I don't believe you are waiting until the end to make your choice (i.e. pass judgment). So, tell me, how can you pass judgment until you have seen the end?

 

Phanta

 

I see it Phanta as people defining the end of the movie without finishing the movie...our lives being the movie. I don't rule out God before the movie is over. Remaining faithful to an idea doesn't seem equal to totally ruling out the idea. Remaining in evidence gathering mode is different than writing the conclusion.

I've seen this movie before.

 

I give it a thumbs down.

[Phanta]

What would I do? I attempt to remain in faith to God and the actions I understand that supports this faith.

 

Would it be appropriate of me to insert one word into your reply, End? Like this?

 

"I attempt to remain in my faith to God and the actions I understand that supports this faith."

 

This is YOUR faith, were talking about here, right? Not anyone else's?

 

So what matters to YOU isn't the suffering of the dying child? What matters to YOU is YOUR faith. How wonderfully selfless of YOU!

 

BAA.

 

No, this is exactly what I am trying to describe. We are UNIFIED in the faith to do the good/loving thing...heal the child. What you just did to me was choose not to select that faith to love and CHOSE through YOUR own faith and to aim at me. Your experience and faith in that probably tells you Christians are selfish, and I agree we are all selfish, but I am understanding that we choose the actions that will bring about the will of God, simply, love your neighbor.

 

What actions would you take in this scenario with the child, End? What actions support your understanding?

 

Phanta

 

I think it's a silly scenario P....the Stengler thing places a new command that would supercede what is written to my knowledge. I would have to go through the experience of Jesus appearing to give you an answer.

 

You leave the child to suffer, trusting there is a higher purpose--or it will somehow turn out all right-- in the style of Abraham. Yes?

 

Phanta

[Phanta]

Remaining faithful to an idea doesn't seem equal to totally ruling out the idea.

 

I disagree. They are exactly the same. Someone can be faithful and close-minded to the possibility that God does not exist just as someone can operate under the assumption that God doesn't exist and be close-minded to the possibility God does exist.

 

The difference comes in the openness of the individual to new material, evidence, revelation, etc., not in the basic ideas they operate under. Even those who stay open are operating under certain assumptions (come to through judgments). They can be working assumptions, but they are still based on our best understanding of the situation, which can include our sense of "how it's all going to end up".

 

Phanta

[Guest end3]

You leave the child to suffer, trusting there is a higher purpose--or it will somehow turn out all right-- in the style of Abraham. Yes?

 

No, Stengler sets up a contradiction in God. Simply, God says love your neighbor. And then Stengler is saying go against the Word of God in your heart, that is to love your neighbor. If Christ showed up in person, then yes, being throughly affirmed that it is Christ, I would certainly do what God says.

[Guest end3]

I disagree. They are exactly the same. Someone can be faithful and close-minded to the possibility that God does not exist just as someone can operate under the assumption that God doesn't exist and be close-minded to the possibility God does exist.

 

I understand, but you to my understanding are now discussing two factions of faith rather than one who has declared something concluded. I was understanding your first statement to be someone who has concluded the idea. I can still be gathering data in an ongoing experiment or I can call the experiment done and quit collecting data.

 

The difference comes in the openness of the individual to new material, evidence, revelation, etc., not in the basic ideas they operate under. Even those who stay open are operating under certain assumptions (come to through judgments). They can be working assumptions, but they are still based on our best understanding of the situation, which can include our sense of "how it's all going to end up".

 

Yes, operating under faith rather than closing the "openness"? .....the experiment is still ongoing. Right?

[NotBlinded]

And in fact, Christ asks us to "die" to ourselves in faith to God.

Yes, Jesus was a mystic.

[ColorMixer]

WTH??? Your response has nothing to do with what Florduh said... or am I missing something here???

Get used to it. I have.

It's so weird... most of the time the Christian answers gives me the feeling I'm in the twilight zone. Sometimes they sound like random-word-response-generator robots. No real thought. Just accidental phrases.

 

Maybe End is the latest version of Dr. Sbaitso... the conversations are about the same quality.

 

Haha holy shit, just had to jump in here to notice that you mentioned Dr. Sbaitso... such a classic. So fitting

[bornagainathiest]

What would I do? I attempt to remain in faith to God and the actions I understand that supports this faith.

 

Would it be appropriate of me to insert one word into your reply, End? Like this?

"I attempt to remain in my faith to God and the actions I understand that supports this faith."

This is YOUR faith, were talking about here, right? Not anyone else's?

So what matters to YOU isn't the suffering of the dying child? What matters to YOU is YOUR faith. How wonderfully selfless of YOU!

BAA.

 

No, this is exactly what I am trying to describe. We are UNIFIED in the faith to do the good/loving thing...heal the child. What you just did to me was choose not to select that faith to love and CHOSE through YOUR own faith and to aim at me. Your experience and faith in that probably tells you Christians are selfish, and I agree we are all selfish, but I am understanding that we choose the actions that will bring about the will of God, simply, love your neighbor.

 

"Your own faith..." !!!

"Your experience and faith?

 

FAITH? FAITH?

 

What's my handle, End?

 

BornAgainPastafarian? BornAgainJedi? BornAgainFUCKINGFundy?

 

Please take back your comments about my 'faith'.

 

No. Scratch that. Take back what you said... pronto! I'm not going to say please because you've insulted me and I'm demanding an apology from you. Do it asap in your next message and do it without ****ing around!

 

BAA

[Phanta]

I disagree. They are exactly the same. Someone can be faithful and close-minded to the possibility that God does not exist just as someone can operate under the assumption that God doesn't exist and be close-minded to the possibility God does exist.

 

I understand, but you to my understanding are now discussing two factions of faith rather than one who has declared something concluded. I was understanding your first statement to be someone who has concluded the idea. I can still be gathering data in an ongoing experiment or I can call the experiment done and quit collecting data.

 

I'm uncomfortable with it being set up that atheism=being inherently close-minded to the possibility of God and Christianity including some inherent openness to evidence that there is none. That's all. The atheist may operate under the assumption that there is no God, but still be open to new material to the contrary. The Christian may operate under the assumption there is a God, but not be open to evidence to the contrary. Close-mindedness or open-mindedness is not necessarily inherent in either position, but the more fundamental the position, the more likely the theist or atheist to be close-minded, in my experience.

 

Phanta

[Guest end3]

What would I do? I attempt to remain in faith to God and the actions I understand that supports this faith.

 

Would it be appropriate of me to insert one word into your reply, End? Like this?

"I attempt to remain in my faith to God and the actions I understand that supports this faith."

This is YOUR faith, were talking about here, right? Not anyone else's?

So what matters to YOU isn't the suffering of the dying child? What matters to YOU is YOUR faith. How wonderfully selfless of YOU!

BAA.

 

No, this is exactly what I am trying to describe. We are UNIFIED in the faith to do the good/loving thing...heal the child. What you just did to me was choose not to select that faith to love and CHOSE through YOUR own faith and to aim at me. Your experience and faith in that probably tells you Christians are selfish, and I agree we are all selfish, but I am understanding that we choose the actions that will bring about the will of God, simply, love your neighbor.

 

"Your own faith..." !!!

"Your experience and faith?

 

FAITH? FAITH?

 

What's my handle, End?

 

BornAgainPastafarian? BornAgainJedi? BornAgainFUCKINGFundy?

 

Please take back your comments about my 'faith'.

 

No. Scratch that. Take back what you said... pronto! I'm not going to say please because you've insulted me and I'm demanding an apology from you. Do it asap in your next message and do it without ****ing around!

 

BAA

 

You are misunderstanding me. I am trying to describe a faith, not necessarily in God, but nonetheless, a faith in a choice. Yours faith was exacted in belittling me.

[Guest end3]

I disagree. They are exactly the same. Someone can be faithful and close-minded to the possibility that God does not exist just as someone can operate under the assumption that God doesn't exist and be close-minded to the possibility God does exist.

 

I understand, but you to my understanding are now discussing two factions of faith rather than one who has declared something concluded. I was understanding your first statement to be someone who has concluded the idea. I can still be gathering data in an ongoing experiment or I can call the experiment done and quit collecting data.

 

I'm uncomfortable with it being set up that atheism=being inherently close-minded to the possibility of God and Christianity including some inherent openness to evidence that there is none. That's all. The atheist may operate under the assumption that there is no God, but still be open to new material to the contrary. The Christian may operate under the assumption there is a God, but not be open to evidence to the contrary. Close-mindedness or open-mindedness is not necessarily inherent in either position, but the more fundamental the position, the more likely the theist or atheist to be close-minded, in my experience.

 

Phanta

 

Yes, I agree. Thx.

[Sconnor]

No. I see no discernible change. I have the same level of compassion I had before my son suffered and died. My life didn't change that way. I will have NOTHING to do with kids and cancer. I don't even like going past Children's Hospital.

 

I seriously doubt that Scott.....I am sure you would drop what you were doing in a heartbeat to help.

 

What the shit? Here you go again making up bullshit assumptions to protect your feeble arguments.

 

No -- end, I would NOT drop what I was doing in a heartbeat to help, because there is NOTHING I could do to help.

 

Point in fact: A child about Connor's age (from the same school and city) suffered for the last two years only to die from his leukemia.

 

How exactly would I help this child dying from terminal cancer?

 

Would I be the awkward outsider and invade the family's personal space (a family I don't even know? What do I have, that I could possibly offer, to help?

 

Would I visit his room and let him know how much he was going to suffer. That the chemo was going to make him ill and he was going to lose his hair. That throwing up would be a part of his life. That he would have to endure painful biopsies, bone marrow transplants, surgeries, distended stomach, excruciating body aches, blood transfusions and lesions on his tongue and throat and so much more? That life as he knew it was going to be turned upside down and inside out? And after ALL that suffering he's just going to die in the end?

 

Or would I come in and lie to him and tell him everything is peaches and cream and everything is going to be all right? Face it end -- once again -- god's dumb-ass plan is a miserable failure that doesn't take into account ALL his suffering children.

 

Again, end, How exactly would I help this child, dying from terminal cancer?

 

And you missed my point, entirely. My compassion did NOT change after being a witness to Connor's suffering. I have the same compassion -- for dying children -- I had before Connor got sick. The only thing that changed was my eyes were opened to children suffering in egregious unimaginable ways, while this supposed all-loving, all-powerful god sits on his ass and does nothing to stop the suffering of his children, when, presumably, all it would take was the wave of his awesome hand.

 

And now you're telling me that this same god is using suffering (including the suffering of innocent children) to accomplish some bullshit plan of making people more compassionate? That is fucking demented!

 

Additionally, what about ALL the people throughout life who didn't become more compassionate after someone suffered? Didn't your -- almighty god -- consider that hundreds of thousands (millions) of individuals didn't become more compassionate and instead became bitter, dejected, mentally crippled, incapacitated, gave up on life, committed suicide? Again, what a dumb-ass shitty plan!

 

That's why Jesus is the judge. I am understanding the plan is to remain consistant in love, in Him.

 

WTF? We are talking about broken, fallible human beings who are so far gone that they can't love anything, let alone some supposed god. Didn't your god consider this when he put his shitty plan into action? Your god-concept and his supposed plan has so many holes -- its just another indication this god is a made-up entity, that has NO reference in reality.

 

Furthermore you did NOT address my argument. You're the one who asserted that god's plan is to make us more compassionate by using the suffering of children.

 

I gave real-life examples, where this is impossible -- which means hundreds of thousands of children suffered for a plan that is ineffectual and morbidly negligent. Again how is your argument tenable?

 

--S.

[bornagainathiest]

You are misunderstanding me. I am trying to describe a faith, not necessarily in God, but nonetheless, a faith in a choice. Yours faith was exacted in belittling me.

 

Saying that an atheist has faith is like saying that the 'Off' switch on a t.v. is a channel choice.

 

So, my fellow atheists... KEEP THE FAITH!

 

BAA