REPENT and Return to Jesus

[Ouroboros]

I have a question about OBEs-- how does the soul "see" without biological eyes?

Hey! That's my argument!

 

That's one of the problems of NDE and OBE, how the heck can you see things, hear things outside your body, and even worse, how can you remember things from being outside, since the short term and long term memory is stored in biological components in the... (drumroll)... Brain!!!

[pandora]

Why? 

 

Christians always claim that those who go to hell wanted to go there and would choose to go there even if they were offered heaven.  So why not give people a choice after they die?

So why did the version of himself known as The Father, create the devil and allow him to live and thrive on earth?

Huh???  Jesus is going to stand over hell and say "blah blah blah" as he watches people be tormented for eternity.  What kind of stupid senario is that?  What kind of callous being could stomach watching billiions suffer unimaginable torture for eternity and then utter a sarcastic line at them, all because they rejected or didn't know about a religion on earth. 

My dad had an NDE.  He said it was really peaceful and aliens (yes the white ones with big black eyes you see in sci-fi movies) were fixing him up.  If my dad's NDE is to be believed, then we go live with the aliens in a high tech world when we die.  why don't you believe this, why aren't you acting now to appease the aliens?

Hmmm?  If it is "my choice" then only a personal action can save me, not an action from above.  If it is dependant on an "action from above" then nothing I personally choose to do can save me.  See the catch-22 here?

 

If it is my choice to go to hell, then when I die, I will just tell god that I choose not to go.  Simple as that.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

Interesting. Since NDEs are all so different to some extent, they can't be said to reflect the truth of what happens to us after we die.

[pandora]

In that one instance of Pam on this website: http://www.near-death.com/experiences/evidence01.html I don't see them offering any proof that her experience coincided with the exact time frame that she was brain dead. Also, it seems to me that in this stand still procedure that true DEATH isn't really reached or otherwise they wouldn't be able to revive the patient.

[pandora]

Hey! That's my argument!

 

That's one of the problems of NDE and OBE, how the heck can you see things, hear things outside your body, and even worse, how can you remember things from being outside, since the short term and long term memory is stored in biological components in the... (drumroll)... Brain!!!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

LOL Sorry.

 

Of course, the people who support these things say that the experience is what causes the chemical changes in the brain, not the other way around.

[pandora]

You're misrepresenting the story completely!!!!

 

Don't say we go to hell without no doubt, when the story tells about a person that exactly did the opposite!

 

Howard Storm, according to the story, didn't believe and blasphemed God, but got to heaven and got back.

 

You claim that we can't do this, but still Howard Storm did it. You're contradicting your own story. Both the story and your claim can't be true at the same time.

 

So is the story a lie, or are you lying or are you both a lie?

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See, I beat you to it again. Neenerneener.

 

I REALLY wish he would come back and answer this.

 

Has anyone PMed him to tell him to come back and be responsible to/with/whatever his thread?

[Angel]

He should come back instead of "drive by shooting" cause to me that is cowardly. defend your god if you are so strong in him... you made a point to come here and sling threats... how about backing them up?

[Eponymic]

He should come back instead of "drive by shooting" cause to me that is cowardly. defend your god if you are so strong in him... you made a point to come here and sling threats... how about backing them up?

 

Hit & run. That's fine by me. If that's all you do, it's obvious you know you don't have two legs to stand on & deep down you have to run because if you stick around we're gonna give you the LL COOL J...

 

MAMA SAID KNOCK YOU OUT,

I'M GONNA KNOCK YOU OUT!

[Caretaker]

I have come to the conclusion that this is merely a hit-and-run Christian who is afraid to face debate.

 

 

Ahem.... :clears throat:

 

 

SIT YOUR ASS DOWN, YOU COWARD!

[euphgeek]

Considering that info came from a pro-NDE website, I am skeptical. I read my tidbit a few years ago in an anthology of Neurotheology essays and then again just a week or two ago in my Philosophy of Religion book.

All I was saying was that some have been reported, not that I know for sure that they actually happened. And they have been reported. That site isn't the only place I've seen them.

 

I have a question about OBEs-- how does the soul "see" without biological eyes?

That's one of the problems of NDE and OBE, how the heck can you see things, hear things outside your body, and even worse, how can you remember things from being outside, since the short term and long term memory is stored in biological components in the... (drumroll)... Brain!!!

I don't know. No one knows, or even claims to know. That's the question that is going to have to be answered as we explore this phenomenon more. There is evidence that at least some stuff happens outside of the brain since some of it happens while the person's EEG is flatlining. If we just ignore this as hallucinations, we close our minds to further scientific discovery.

 

In that one instance of Pam on this website: http://www.near-death.com/experiences/evidence01.html I don't see them offering any proof that her experience coincided with the exact time frame that she was brain dead. Also, it seems to me that in this stand still procedure that true DEATH isn't really reached or otherwise they wouldn't be able to revive the patient.

They did offer proof that her experience happened at the exact same time frame she was brain dead. From the website:

But during "standstill", Pam's brain was found "dead" by all three clinical tests - her electroencephalogram was silent, her brain-stem response was absent, and no blood flowed through her brain.  Interestingly, while in this state, she encountered the "deepest" NDE of all Atlanta Study participants.

 

As for not being "true death" who can say exactly what true death is? If you only define true death as something you don't revive from, then nobody has ever had an NDE. But something is happening while patients are brain dead. And I'm not quite ready to believe it's just a hallucination quite yet.

[thomas]

Return to Jesus while you're still alive, once you die there is no more repentance available.

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evreos

 

It is already too late.

Don't you know that God is dead?

[Bongo]

Amethyst,

 

Thanks for that link. Now I have to hate you. You have removed a cherished hope.

 

(just kidding about the hate you part!)

 

What bums me a bit is the fact that right after my dad died I had a great reunion dream with him, and he told me he was ok. Probably just a vivid dream like a NDE is.

 

I'll read the pro-NDE links now and get my "happy" back.

[Ouroboros]

I don't know.  No one knows, or even claims to know.  That's the question that is going to have to be answered as we explore this phenomenon more.  There is evidence that at least some stuff happens outside of the brain since some of it happens while the person's EEG is flatlining.  If we just ignore this as hallucinations, we close our minds to further scientific discovery.

As for not being "true death" who can say exactly what true death is?  If you only define true death as something you don't revive from, then nobody has ever had an NDE.  But something is happening while patients are brain dead.  And I'm not quite ready to believe it's just a hallucination quite yet.

They've done experimenting to recreate NDE with drugs and other methods, and been successful. You can stimulate certain parts of the brain to get this feeling. The tunnel of light is something you see as some reaction in the optical nerve (unfortunately I don't remember exactly what kind of reaction it was.)

 

Our brain actually "think" much faster than you talk or visualise things by daydreaming.

The REM sleep is only for a few seconds, and can give you a complete story from start to finish.

IIRC, we think 300 words a second, but that is only on the subconscious level, while the conscious level is really slow.

 

The NDE experience can be done in the last fraction before the brain goes into "silence", and the "story" you dream can be stored in the memory just before the memory shuts down.

 

I don't see NDE or OBE as any extraordinary or supernatural events, but results of physical and biological events.

 

I'm not telling you to change what you believe, I only give you an alternative explanation.

[Antlerman]

Return to Jesus while you're still alive, once you die there is no more repentance available. If you die in a second from now, where is your soul destined to for eternity? Dont let the Devil or his pomps who created this forum confuse you.

 

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May you turn around and embrace the loving arms of your creator, Jesus the Christ

Regarding being sent to hell by your primitive deity: If God created me, he is responsible for me being damned by "cursing" me with intelligence and rational thought. It is those aspects of my mind that will not allow me to think like you. It is that gift (or curse) of rationality that makes me discerning and unable to be gullible like you are so blessed with. My hell is awareness then. Your heaven is your lack of knowledge and gullibility. I don't know, but I prefer the hell of clear thinking, over the weakness and gullibility of a feeble mind as yours. Personally, I think only sincere people deserve heaven, and those who lie to themselves like you are already in hell.

 

If you do read this: REPENT YOURSELF! Get an education - if you are capable of learning. No one respects your foolishness here.

[crazy-tiger]

So... where do I get to send the bill for the 20 minutes of my life that your post just cost me?

[BeccasStillSeeking]

**SPAAAAAMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM

MMMMMMMMMMMM!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!*

 

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May you turn around and embrace the loving arms of your creator, Jesus the Christ

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

Sorry, not convinced. Jesus had twenty years of devotion from me in which to say anything he wanted to. Christianity was a horrible, scarring spiritual disappointment for me. I'm not interested anymore--especially when its advertisers are such pushy, self-congratulating idiots.

[Amethyst]

Just because you can reproduce the main features of an NDE using drugs doesn't mean that NDEs are not real. There's a lot more evidence for NDEs than just what the drugs reproduce, including people being able to see things that normally wouldn't be possible for them to see otherwise.

 

Um, no. There really isn't that much evidence. Go read the Skepdic link. Just because people claim to have experienced something doesn't mean they really experienced it.

 

I saw an aura once. Does that mean I had a brain fart, or was it a supernatural experience, or something else? More than likely, it wasn't anything supernatural. I know what I saw, but that doesn't make it really what I saw. For all I know, a neuron or two might have misfired for a second.

[pandora]

That's one of the problems of NDE and OBE, how the heck can you see things, hear things outside your body, and even worse, how can you remember things from being outside, since the short term and long term memory is stored in biological components in the... (drumroll)... Brain!!!

I don't know. No one knows, or even claims to know. That's the question that is going to have to be answered as we explore this phenomenon more. There is evidence that at least some stuff happens outside of the brain since some of it happens while the person's EEG is flatlining. If we just ignore this as hallucinations, we close our minds to further scientific discovery.

As for not being "true death" who can say exactly what true death is? If you only define true death as something you don't revive from, then nobody has ever had an NDE. But something is happening while patients are brain dead. And I'm not quite ready to believe it's just a hallucination quite yet.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

My point was that how did PAM know that her "experience" happened exactly as she was braindead?

[euphgeek]

Um, no.  There really isn't that much evidence.  Go read the Skepdic link.  Just because people claim to have experienced something doesn't mean they really experienced it.

I did read it. There was no conclusion drawn as to whether NDEs prove an afterlife or not. All they did was present both sides of the argument. I'm all for skepticism. It helps people to not be too gullible. But one should still strive to keep an open mind and not assume that just because something is outside of our knowledge of reality that the experiencer is hallucinating or being less than truthful.

I saw an aura once.  Does that mean I had a brain fart, or was it a supernatural experience, or something else?  More than likely, it wasn't anything supernatural.  I know what I saw, but that doesn't make it really what I saw.  For all I know, a neuron or two might have misfired for a second.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Maybe, or maybe not. I'm not going to pretend I know because I'm not you. But I will say that I dislike the word "supernatural". I don't believe there is anything which is supernatural, just things that science can't explain yet. I think that if there is such thing as a God or an afterlife (as I believe there is) science will eventually be able to measure/quantify it.

[Guest SkizzikS]

Wow! This is Rich…

 

Return to Jesus while you're still alive, once you die there is no more repentance available.

Indeed,

Because your omnipotent, omniscient, all-loving god threatens to burn me in an eternal firepit unless I accept the absurd notion that he has sent himself to sacrifice himself to himself to save me from himself. Sounds like even he thinks that he is the problem.

 

If you die in a second from now, where is your soul destined to for eternity?

In the real universe, my body will decompose and the atoms of my physicality will move and mingle with the substance of the universe, just as they did before biology knit them together in my mother’s womb.

 

Or do you mean according to your sanctified porn-belief? Are you shocked at the term I used? Well, that is what the hell doctrine is… it is Christian porn. A sanctified snuff-fetish. This is because, according to some of your religion’s most notable doctors, the suffering of hell is necessary for the Joy of heaven to exist. You see, you need my charred atheist ass so you can have your blessed hope.

 

Dont let the Devil or his pomps who created this forum confuse you.

And you see so clearly, right?

 

It doesnt please your Lord Jesus Christ to allow you to go to hell and be tormented there by the devil.

First… Neither JC nor his pal Satan even exist.

 

Second (assuming he exists)… If he is not pleased then why ---given his omniscience, omnipotence and alleged benevolence--- did he actualize the universe such that the majority of his human creatures will burn in hell?

 

Although he will allow it to happen to those who reject his name. And then that blasphemous icon you show with the words "blah blah blah" will be all you hear from him as your spirit screams for mercy from him.

“Matt 5:43-48 Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy. But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you; That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust. For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? do not even the publicans the same? And if ye salute your brethren only, what do ye more [than others]? do not even the publicans so? Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

 

If what you say is true then Jesus needs to be practicing what he is preaching. Don't ya think?

 

If you choose to reject Jesus and blaspheme his name, let there be no doubt you will go to hell and if you haven’t believed what the Bible says about hell, then take a more modern day approach and see what NDE'rs (People who have had near death experiences have said they saw). It's your choice, but to choose to go to hell is a personal choice of damnation that only an act from above can save you.

Actually, I read the Rev Storm’s NDE shortly before I de-converted. It is much less convincing than its rebuttal…

 

BTW,

Have you submitted to Allah yet?

[euphgeek]

I don't know.  No one knows, or even claims to know.  That's the question that is going to have to be answered as we explore this phenomenon more.  There is evidence that at least some stuff happens outside of the brain since some of it happens while the person's EEG is flatlining.  If we just ignore this as hallucinations, we close our minds to further scientific discovery.

As for not being "true death" who can say exactly what true death is?  If you only define true death as something you don't revive from, then nobody has ever had an NDE.  But something is happening while patients are brain dead.  And I'm not quite ready to believe it's just a hallucination quite yet.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

My point was that how did PAM know that her "experience" happened exactly as she was braindead?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Well, one of the pieces of evidence presented was that she observed the doctor using the surgical saw on her, something that happened "When all of Pam's vital signs were stopped". She even described the surgical saw, presumably something she had never seen before.

[pandora]

My point was that how did PAM know that her "experience" happened exactly as she was braindead?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Well, one of the pieces of evidence presented was that she observed the doctor using the surgical saw on her, something that happened "When all of Pam's vital signs were stopped". She even described the surgical saw, presumably something she had never seen before.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

Poor reading comprehension, sorry. LOL In her anxious pre-surgery state, perhaps that is what consumed her thoughts as she was put under... AND "vital signs" doesn't include brain waves as far as I know.

[Dark Helmet]

For example, a person blind from birth having an NDE suddenly being able to see.  Whatever this phenomenon is, even if it is just a chemical reaction, it warrants more study from the scientific community and not just being blown off as wishful thinking by people who want them to be true or hallucinations.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I think I was wearing the plain gold band on my right ring finger and my father's wedding ring next to it. But my wedding ring I definitely saw ... That was the one I noticed the most because it's most unusual. It has orange blossoms on the corners of it.

 

Ok explain to me how someone who has never seen colors in her life could know what orange looks like?

[Poonis]

Return to Jesus while you're still alive, once you die there is no more repentance available. If you die in a second from now, where is your soul destined to for eternity? Dont let the Devil or his pomps who created this forum confuse you.

 

It doesnt please your Lord Jesus Christ to allow you to go to hell and be tormented there by the devil. Instead, he awaits your return with ever open arms.

Although he will allow it to happen to those who reject his name. And then that blasphemous icon you show with the words "blah blah blah" will be all you hear from him as your spirit screams for mercy from him.

 

If you choose to reject Jesus and blaspheme his name, let there be no doubt you will go to hell and if you havent believed what the Bible says about hell, then take a more modern day approach and see what NDE'rs (People who have had near death experiences have said they saw). It's your choice, but to choose to go to hell is a personal choice of damnation that only an act from above can save you.

 

<snip long diatribe cut n paste found on near-death.com>

 

May you turn around and embrace the loving arms of your creator, Jesus the Christ

 

Fuck you and your god.

[scotter]

Poonis,

 

I don't know where you got that yellow smiley.....

[euphgeek]

I think I was wearing the plain gold band on my right ring finger and my father's wedding ring next to it. But my wedding ring I definitely saw ... That was the one I noticed the most because it's most unusual. It has orange blossoms on the corners of it.

 

Ok explain to me how someone who has never seen colors in her life could know what orange looks like?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Er...I think she said "orange blossoms", not "orange" blossoms. In other words, she was describing the shape, not the color.