how many will he say ths to?...

[BLACKGRAVITY]

"Many will say to Me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?' And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.'" (Matthew 7:22-23)

 

?

[Ouroboros]

All of them. No one is or has ever been a True Christian™. All of them are at fault and lack of faith.

[Mythra]

If that day ever comes, at least I'll be able to say "that's cool, big J, I evidently never knew you either. But at least I enjoyed my life."

 

That's better than spending your life snivelling and grovelling in the wrong church for 40 years and then have the dude tell you that.

[Angel]

What the hell would be the point if you lived the best you can for god, just to have him turn you away anyway? WTF? You would think that he would honor at least someone that tried? It may state that he does not like sending people to hell, but he sure is not making it easy for someone to stay out of it!!!

[Angel]

All of them. No one is or has ever been a True Christian. All of them are at fault and lack of faith.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

You're right! No one is perfect so we are all screwed, christian or not. (according to the bible) Sooooo why bother trying to live like a christian?

[thomas]

Jesus to "faith" filled Christian:  "Away from me, all you who practice lawlessness!"

 

Christian:    "But, but I thought we were under grace not law, Paul says so!"

 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Oh yes. One cannot trust the Christian God. Think about it.

 

According to the bible, God told the Jewish slaves in Egypt, that he would bring them to a better land. But what happened? On the journey they did something that really pissed God, so God did not keep his promise, but changed the plan. Now the people who had been promised the land were to die in the dessert, and only their children were allowed to enter the land.

 

Later in the new land God was pissed again and the Jewish people were taken into captivity, and years later, it was only the tribe of Juda that returned.

 

And then later again, God declares that his covenant with the Jews, isn't the real thing. He does not care, that the Jews had struggeled so hard to keep it. He just says, that the old one was not the real thing, and then he changes the rules of the game; the new covenant is introduced, and the Jews are punished for not adapting well to the new rules.

 

But why should one ever believe, that the new covenant is the real stuff. Maybe God will send all Christians to hell on judgement day, and then make a totally new and fresh covernant with some other people.

 

Why not? One never knows what this abusive monster will do next.

[thomas]

"Many will say to Me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?' And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.'" (Matthew 7:22-23)

 

?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

When I was a Christian, I once heard a charismatic preacher, saying that from these verses, it was clear that even some of the charismatic christian leaders would not make it to heaven.

 

The preacher had just returned home from a visit to the Pensacola revival.

[Angel]

When I was a Christian, I once heard a charismatic preacher, saying that from these verses, it was clear that even some of the charismatic christian leaders would not make it to heaven.

 

The preacher had just returned home from a visit to the Pensacola revival.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

So much for blessed assurance huh? I have been told by people in the ministry that even people that believe that they are saved will not make it. For crying out loud, I was first told that Jesus came to make it simple..then I was told that it was a narrow road, then told that not all christians are going to make it and will still be sent to hell. The point? There is no way of knowing even if you are christian and claim him as your father, that he will infact accept you.

PLUS, I was always taught that god is no respecter of persons, soooooo how can he choose one over the other? This one goes to heaven, this one goes to hell.... oh what about him.. hmm, well I guess he can go to heaven... Hmmm, here is a tricky one.... nah, bad hair day, dont want slop in the holy shop, fry baby fry....

WTF?

[thomas]

LOL..Thomas, I am only like 2 miles from Brownsville Revival!  People come from freakin' everywhere to go to those things.  I was at a Charismatic Church but I could never get into that crap.  Once I tried a Miracle Faith Church and there were prostetics hanging on the walls and wheelchairs on display, good grief.  It was too hokey and seemed so freakin' fake...Oh, that's probably because it was.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

SN

 

When I first heard the preaching I really felt touched, and went forward to prayer. But basically, there was some elements in it that I will never forget, and that later have helped me to see how ridicules Christianity really is.

 

First of all the preacher in question has been in Christian service for many many years and is a well know guest speaker among Scandinavian charismatics. (If you like, you can read about him here by scrolling down to board members and look for Eivind Froen)

 

Next he and his wife had been visiting Pensacola, and now they were invited to out Church in order to bring some of this revival atmosphere to us. In his preaching he started by telling about the trip and about the strong spiritual atmosphere in these Pensacola meetings. And then he even told, that in the first meeting, the atmosphere was so strong, that he looked at his wife and said: “I am not sure, that I am a true Christian”.

 

Then he preached about how easy it is, without really being aware of it, to slowly drift away from the lord and become a cold non committed Christian,. And then he came to those verses about people being sent to hell, and said that even some of the strong charismatic Christian would go to hell.

 

But wait a minute, it does not make sense. If his point was that God did not like Charismatic Christianity and that charismatics generally were headed for hell, then I would on some level bee able to see the point (although it still is sick thinking, that a god should send his creation to hell). But to this preacher, charismatic Christianity is the best form of Christianity. His point was, that even some of the best Christians would not make it.

 

So what an asshole this Christian god really is. People who are serving him all their life, struggeling to do their best to follow his instructions, and then they won’t make it because they were unaware of their own spiritual condition in a crucial moment.

 

What the fuck, this god can go to hell himself.

 

 

PS Sorry for bad language

[Checkmate]

PS  Sorry for bad language

What bad language? Don't apologize, Br. Thomas. Ain't no virgin ears(eyes?) around here!

[thomas]

What bad language?  Don't apologize, Br. Thomas.  Ain't no virgin ears(eyes?) around here! 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

Right

[Mythra]

What the fuck, this god can go to hell himself.

PS  Sorry for bad language

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Bad language??

 

WTF??

 

If god is omnipresent, he's already in hell.

[Dio]

When I was a Christian, I once heard a charismatic preacher, saying that from these verses, it was clear that even some of the charismatic christian leaders would not make it to heaven.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Many (most?) times Christians pray and do not receive an answer to their prayer. Then they say tritely that "God does answer all prayers, but sometimes the answer is 'No'". How do they know then that their "prayer of salvation" or "sinners' prayer" is going to be answered in the affirmative? They don't. It's still a crap shoot for them and their capricious deity.

[thomas]

Many (most?) times Christians pray and do not receive an answer to their prayer.  Then they say tritely that "God does answer all prayers, but sometimes the answer is 'No'".  How do they know then that their "prayer of salvation" or "sinners' prayer" is going to be answered in the affirmative?  They don't.  It's still a crap shoot for them and their capricious deity.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

Ha, ha. I have never thought of it that way. But clear, if the christian version of god is allowed to answer prayers witn a "no", then this version is also allowed to reject a person praying the sinners prayer.

[Ouroboros]

But why should one ever believe, that the new covenant is the real stuff. Maybe God will send all Christians to hell on judgement day, and then make a totally new and fresh covernant with some other people.

 

Why not? One never knows what this abusive monster will do next.

The Muslims think Islam is the next level of understanding, the correction, from God. And their Hell is much worse than the Christian version, and Heaven is way cooler.

[Ouroboros]

So what an asshole this Christian god really is. People who are serving him all their life, struggeling to do their best to follow his instructions, and then they won’t make it because they were unaware of their own spiritual condition in a crucial moment.

That has been in my thoughts more than ever the last two weeks. If you do some math:

 

All people before Jesus will go to Hell, except a few Jews (Abraham, Moses, Salomon, etc): some 100-1000 people.

Most people during Jesus time will go to Hell, except for the disciples and some other followers (early church): say a couple of thousand

Catholic Church destroyed Christianity, and all of them are going to hell

All other religions and people from then until now are going to hell, except a few revival people: total say some 10,000.

And today, out of 2.2 Billion Christians, most are Catholics. Going to hell, with most cult christians too (word of life etc)

Say (high number) 1 million.

 

Total: around 1-2 million TOPS. Probably even much lower.

 

How many people live in the world today 6 Billion.

How many people est. lived before today, 5-6 Billion

 

The end conclusion: 0.017% Return of Investment for Gods project

 

I get better return on my savings account. God is a bad designer, planner and manager.

He would NOT get hired by me as my money manager.

 

Even the dude that screwed us and blew most of our money had better return that God.

 

PS  Sorry for bad language

What fucking bad language? What ya bitching about?

[Ouroboros]

Many (most?) times Christians pray and do not receive an answer to their prayer.  Then they say tritely that "God does answer all prayers, but sometimes the answer is 'No'".  How do they know then that their "prayer of salvation" or "sinners' prayer" is going to be answered in the affirmative?  They don't.  It's still a crap shoot for them and their capricious deity.

That's exactly the answer I got.

 

I was losing my faith, and asked God to give me faith again, and then when it didn't come, I lost it all.

 

So God said No, when I needed more faith.

 

(Or the simple explanation, he never answered because he can't hear, he got no ears, no nose, no head, no mind and no existence.)

[All Gods Fail]

"Many will say to Me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?' And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.'" (Matthew 7:22-23)

 

?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Oh, I know the answer!

 

He won't say it to anybody, because he doesn't exist!

[Guest queen annie]

That's exactly the answer I got.

 

I was losing my faith, and asked God to give me faith again, and then when it didn't come, I lost it all.

 

So God said No, when I needed more faith.

 

(Or the simple explanation, he never answered because he can't hear, he got no ears, no nose, no head, no mind and no existence.)

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

There is one more possibility--that God did answer your prayer--in your own best interests (by which I mean, specifically, unspoken and undetected (yet heeded, all the same--completely) instructions to 'bail, get out of that puppy (christianity)--she's gonna blow!')

 

You say you were losing your faith--in religion? Or in the god that religion touts as 'The' God?

 

What was it, exactly?

[Guest queen annie]

(Dio)

That's a good question, worth an answer!

 

I had a ton of anxiety in my last years in Christianity because I had prayed very hard for God to answer a big prayer.  And he didn't come through.  After that, I got really insecure about my salvation and started having mild anxiety attacks when I would hear about hell.  Finally I realized that no matter how much I asked for salvation, I had no assurance that God had really answered it. 

 

Most Christians assume that God has answered that prayer because it is an invisible request attached to a fantastical happening that nobody can confirm occurs.  The more real a request- one that demands that something physical happens on a specific time frame (such as was my prayer) and the less able humans are to fix it, the more likely that God won't step up to the plate either.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I think, truly--that christianity defines 'answered prayer' as 'getting the answer you want to get.'

 

This is the christian approach to prayer:

If we have a problem, and we think we know the solution, but can't bring it to fruition, we ask God to do it for us.

 

Now--that is dead before it gets out of the water--if you can't make the solution happen--then maybe, just maybe, it's the wrong solution.

 

The theological concept of 'answered prayer' is basically the same as saying 'God gave me my way.'

 

And so it's false.

 

If they truly believe in God as they say they do, then they would understand what the bible says. But they don't--they twist it all up and make it a mess. The make others feel they have been forsaken--but that is not the case.

[Ouroboros]

There is one more possibility--that God did answer your prayer--in your own best interests (by which I mean, specifically, unspoken and undetected (yet heeded, all the same--completely)  instructions to 'bail, get out of that puppy (christianity)--she's gonna blow!')

Or maybe Calvin was right, that we all are predestined to be saved or not. And Gods plan was that I wasn't supposed to be saved.

 

You say you were losing your faith--in religion?  Or in the god that religion touts as 'The' God?

In Christianity specifically. But since I lost my faith in the Christian God, there was nothing to replace it with. I fully understand if someone believes in a divine creator, more like deism or naturalism, but I can't reconcile the Bible to any divine being.

 

What was it, exactly?

My experience, or more specifically, the experience my family had, my kids and wife, made me eventually loose the faith in Bible God, and when I asked him to give me faith in him, nothing happened. I wanted to believe, but I needed something to hold on to. Just something. And my second request from God was to give me a sign of any kind, his choice, to convince me that he existed. He didn't have to do any miracle of any kind, but just to strengthen the faith that was fading. I've been waiting ever since. Believe me, if I get a sign that will convince me, I'll be converting in a second.

[Guest queen annie]

Or maybe Calvin was right, that we all are predestined to be saved or not. And Gods plan was that I wasn't supposed to be saved.

Possibly. But....nah. Calvin was just as 'half-cocked' as the rest of the founding theologians of christianity.

In Christianity specifically. But since I lost my faith in the Christian God, there was nothing to replace it with. I fully understand if someone believes in a divine creator, more like deism or naturalism, but I can't reconcile the Bible to any divine being.

I see--you helped me just come to my own realizations, too--since now I see a difference in my own experience and that of an ex-christian. I've never held christianity in any high regard and I am not technically an ex-christian because of that (I've never identified with that term, it seems like a 'bad word' to me, no joke).

 

It's a long story--but if anything else, you've done me a great service in answering as you have--and I appreciate your sharing your experience and thoughts with me.

 

My experience, or more specifically, the experience my family had, my kids and wife, made me eventually loose the faith in Bible God, and when I asked him to give me faith in him, nothing happened. I wanted to believe, but I needed something to hold on to. Just something. And my second request from God was to give me a sign of any kind, his choice, to convince me that he existed. He didn't have to do any miracle of any kind, but just to strengthen the faith that was fading. I've been waiting ever since. Believe me, if I get a sign that will convince me, I'll be converting in a second.

That's good to know, just because that means you're not closed off altogether--it is one of the most heinous crimes, in the annals of 'man's inhumanity to man', the way the insecure and overzealous religious factions have hindered peace of mind for the majority of the world.

 

I just want to tell you that it was a good thing that you got no sign--it would have been a false sign; the type of which has been the main fertilizer for christianity over the last 2000 years. But I can tell you that I have had a sign--actually two or three--nothing I ever asked for, looked for, or (thought I) needed. (and none of them involved tears, statues, virgins, apparitions, crackers, or even 'jesus-tacos', 'jesus-clouds', or 'jesus-cabinet-doors')

 

I have never had a problem believing (since I didn't come into that line of thinking through the 'witness' of christians or visiting a church one time for my first 'introduction' to the idea of Jesus) but when I received that first sign, I began to know. Then a couple of other things happened to me and that 'knowing' became certain.

 

Just know that the 'christian god' may be supported in the bible, but not completely--there is much conflict in christianity over the things which they cannot resolve into their manufactured god--but there is a definite entity called truth and/or Love and that is the underlying story of the bible. But you will never ever hear it complete out of the mouth of a 'christian' because they do not understand it. I say that rather arrogantly--but as long as there is the idea of 'hell' and a god who selectively and impetuously slings us around here and there, most likely to hell--I see no essential viable truth in the doctrine of christianity.

 

In fact, I firmly believe the allegorical representation of all the 'evil' in the bible is directly representative of religion, namely christianity. The 'antichrist' the christian world waits for with bated breath is the very institution they live and breathe by! The strong delusion, the mark of the beast--all of it. It's christianity, plain and simple.

 

I love this forum--I can say things like that and even if no one reads them or believes them, they still don't throw *tomatoes*

[Guest queen annie]

Oh, so when we asked for God to help us hold onto the faith (some for many months, perhaps years) we were twisting his words,

No. But you're sure twisting mine!

 

 

oh, okay, I see...then screw BIBLEGOD!  

You mean 'christian god?' Sure, why not? That's nothing more than a bad reflection of some of the worst traits man is oblivious to in himself.

 

Another problem with your thoughts on this Queen is that Jesus gave signs of believers, in MARK 16 so, um...appears god has a problem with allowing "true" believers to heal in the name of his son. 

It would be--if those things were to apply to this modern age--but times change--people change, but God doesn't. Things that were pertinent for Moses or Christ are not the same things of priority these days.

 

Back then, the people were just getting used to the idea of some kind of light beyond the darkness--they were not as able to comprehend the idea of spiritual life as we can today. Humanity, as a whole, is maturing and evolving. We are growing. The issue these days is not about fleshly life--it's about understanding that fleshly life is not all there is. But in order to get to this place, we had to be shown that there are powers we do not see that do have rule over the things that we do see. But to continue to heal people's bodies would keep us all stuck at the level of holding physical existence and material reality as absolute. The healing that must take place now is of our hearts, our minds. It's about having a healthy soul (one step beyond having a healthy body)

 

This tells me that Christianity is bunk.  Hasn't a damn thing to do with "give me what I want".

No, it doesn't.

[Fweethawt]

Oh, I know the answer!

 

He won't say it to anybody, because he doesn't exist!

 

Even if he does exist, he'll still say that to every single person who claims what that verse says. Hell, we've been telling them that they're full of shit for years. This oughta be an easy call for The Son of God.

 

[Nicole Simon]

"Many will say to Me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?' And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.'" (Matthew 7:22-23)

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

You forgot the preceding verse, verse 21, add that verse and the above scripture becomes a whole paragraph with a complete meaning. As it stands now, there are too many unanswered questions.

 

If (and I've no doubt you'll do this, you'll have to, I'm too lazy to look it up and type it in. I had a rigorous tutorial last night with Fwee on how to post accurately with color and quotes. I flunked.) Sooo, when you look at verse 21, for instance, you'll be able to answer what men? ...who are they? ...what kind of men?

 

As it lay before us now, all we know is that the men to whom He was speaking are those type, or atypical of those '...who practice lawlessness." Hmm? What kind of lawlessness? ...what law do the men who practice, yes, even (make a habit of) lawlessness, what is the law they remain 'outside' of? -- not only outside but far enough outside and away that He never, ever knew them. How could He? You'll be able to see why He never knew them when you look at verse 21.

 

Think of it as a NY Times crostic ... a puzzle ...it'll make it easier: cause I know (too well) that most of you don't believe this or think it's BS. But before you go 'assuming' He meant something He didn't -- at least read the whole passage. The first verse sets up the rest. Honest. I'm not trying to get you to believe something you don't. Only to help you see the passage accurately. A lot of Christians get wiggy with this one, too -- the difference, tragically, is they turn and use the Lord's statement to beat people up, and it's the wrong people, their very own, presumably. There's no need for that, and you'll see that once you 'see' what it simply says. NS