how many will he say ths to?...

[Asimov]

I find it interesting, Becca....um....that you don't believe in God, yet you contain such malice towards it. Isn't that kind of like being angry at Santa?

 

God is a concept....like Santa....that is used for many reasons relative to each person. Now this concept is taken as a reality for some people, but why you? Why say "God is a prick"? Cuz he's not...

[Nicole Simon]

Thank you. 

 

So you admit that besides the fact that I have a bitchin' avatar, it is God HimSelf that decides whether or not to save us, and it isn't up to us, no matter how hard we try.  You place yourself into the predestination camp.

 

No. You've placed me into the predestination camp, just now. But that's okay. Whatever. I'm always amused by people who think they have enough of a handle on understanding what God is up to -- that they actually can 'label' His activity. Oh really? Is that how He does it? I wouldn't dare presume. I only know my experience and you know of yours, right?

 

 

That puts the responsibility on God and not us.

 

I suppose it does. But only to an extent. Then again, there's always the unspoken witness of creation and what an individual does with that light. But as far as that concerns you, or any other fellow human being, what do I know? How much can anyone know of another person's inner life? Nothing. And it's all an inside job. It has nothing to do with behavior, but everything to do with motive. We can't see motive, we only see fruit, allegedly. But we're highly susceptible to judge wrong. And furthermore, we're told not to.

 

 

 

 

I never had a supernatural experience although I learned to speak in tongues and did often.

 

Can that be learned? My understanding (from what the Bible says) is that it is a gift.

 

I don't hate or even dislike MOST Christians, but I am convinced they are wrong.

 

In what particular way? Yeah, the way some dress, sure. But other than that?

 

So it's working out fine for me, thank you for asking.  How about you?

 

I'm pleased that you're pleased, and that you're enjoying life. That's how it should be. If we're unsettled, it makes it difficult to enjoy one another, and in the end, that's ultimately all we have. Love and enjoy ...and in the end, you'll be amongst likeminded company. My gut feeling is we all end up where we belong. I know that's contradictory to the my way or the highway outlook that many people have preached. But if you take a good look at the Bible------it stresses Love, and God being above all the final arbiter. If you truly Love, how can you err?

[Ouroboros]

(snip)

What were they again? Oh yeah, God never revealed Himself to you. Well ask Him, and until He does be patient.

And meanwhile, you mean we should stay atheists? It's okay with you then?

 

Take one day at a time. It's up to Him to let you know...not the other way around. You don't win brownie points for believing in a God who hasn't revealed Himself to you.

Ah. You're right. 30 years of waiting is quite impatient. Fasting and praying whole days, searching God doesn't count. Asking for him to reveal himself only counts when you finally get the answer. But until then? Is God non-existent? Non-responsive is pretty much like non-existent. So it's okay for me then to say that he doesn't exist, because he hasn't revealed himself yet.

 

You'd only get weird looks, a shrug of the shoulders, and a, What are ya doin' that for? If you never heard from God, why bother? Isn't life hard enough without obeying an imaginary God that you've created in your own mind? But if He reveals Himself, then I'd advice doing what He requests. Faith is God's gift to you -- Not your gift to God. He can manage fine without you manufacturing an artificial love. Let Him love you first.

Very true. 30 years of devotion is not love. Setting him first in your life, before your family and kids is not love. To give most of your time and money to him, is not love. James was wrong. Faith doesn't show in actions after all.

 

And how would you know? You yourself admitted He never said anything to you about anything ...ever ...in your whole life. So, tell me, how is it again you know what He is like?   

But yet, you claim God is a prick. Interesting.

Well, tell us, how you know he isn't? He created the Devil after all, and Sin was his concept from starters, he made it impossible to become saved, since you have to wait like a true Calvinist for Gods predestined future for you to unfold. Free will has been demoted.

 

And that, precisely, is why you didn't get one.

Because what? Because of our attitude now? After the fact? You're saying we failed because we eventually would be upset that we failed? Or we failed because God didn't reveal himself?

 

If you don't need one, why should He bother. He was probably busy with me ...I always need His help. Everyday. Today, for some reason, more than others.

Well, good for you.

 

There ya go. Now you've got it. Let go and let God we like to say with a big wide grin. Just relax, kid. Ask Him once ...and then let it go. I promise, at the right time and at the right place God will come through for you.

Asked once, and still waiting. Actually, just for the heck of it, I asked again today, after reading this thread. I don't feel any belief or faith boiling up yet. I'm not sure why... maybe it's because God didn't want to, still?

 

But remember, if you tick Nicole off, you'll never make it to that day

Who would be at fault for her eternal damnation then? Breaking God's plan and all. That's an even bigger No-No. Tsk, tsk.

[Amethyst]

It also says, "God is the author and finisher of our faith."

 

What does that mean to you? Nobody speaks on stage until the author gives them their lines. . .no one comes to the Father lest the Spirit draw them nigh. . .no one enters the Kingdom of God lest they be born again. Seems to me, He has to be the one to initiate all these enterprises. He is the Author and Finisher. He is the Alpha and the Omega. He is not going to help me get dinner ready, so I don't even bother to ask. See ya all later. Love, Nicole

 

Honestly, it means to me that someone wrote it in a book 2,000 years ago because they wanted people to believe it. It's funny that you used the word author. I'm an aspiring author myself. I also am a major bookworm. When you read lots of books all your life, you start to realize how people can concoct these stories with seemingly realistic characters in real settings and make it seem like it all happened. And you realize that it's really not that hard, and you can do it, too. So you try, and discover you really like to make up stories.

 

Then you start to think that the Bible really seems like a myth, so you do some research into the history of Christianity and lo and behold, all the evidence outside the Bible points to Christianity being an offshoot of Paganism. Then you realize it's all just another fairy tale.

[Cerise]

Ever consider, Nicole, that there are some people whom God just won't reveal himself to...ever? That there is no "one day my prince/God will come" song on the tracklist?

 

You claim we can't put our own assumptions on god, but doesn't that include the assumption that he will eventually call? By telling people to be patient, aren't you making that assumption while simultaneously telling us not to assume anything about god?

[Nicole Simon]

Honestly, it means to me that someone wrote it in a book 2,000 years ago because they wanted people to believe it.  It's funny that you used the word author.  I'm an aspiring author myself.  I also am a major bookworm.  When you read lots of books all your life, you start to realize how people can concoct these stories with seemingly realistic characters in real settings and make it seem like it all happened.  And you realize that it's really not that hard, and you can do it, too.  So you try, and discover you really like to make up stories.

 

Then you start to think that the Bible really seems like a myth, so you do some research into the history of Christianity and lo and behold, all the evidence outside the Bible points to Christianity being an offshoot of Paganism.  Then you realize it's all just another fairy tale.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

If I wanted to get someone to believe something -- in this instance, a plausible story -- even I, and I'm not that bright, could come up with something better than a Virgin Birth and a talking jackass and walking on water and---- need I go on. Seriously, even you, as an aspiring author could come up with a more realistic scenario to believe than that which is dramatized in Scripture. For that matter, if I wanted to create for my fiction a plausible universe, one which would readily be grasped and believed, I'd have to think twice about including a planet with rings around it, and another with 12 moons, and none of them but one with the ability to sustain life. Seems to me the physical realm mirrors somewhat the strangeness of the miraculous recorded in Scripture. That's what always got to me about Marx saying the Bible was nothing more than an opiate for the masses: if that's true, the medicine seems pretty hard to swallow (and believe) with every turn of the page. So which is it? Good fiction? Or a clever and well devised hoax that has survived generations of scrutiny. It can't be both.

[Cerise]

So which is it? Good fiction? Or a clever and well devised hoax that has survived generations of scrutiny. It can't be both.

 

Sorry, maybe I'm not getting something here about what you just posted but...why not?

 

Aren't hoaxes inherently fictions? Or any narrative, for that matter?

[Ouroboros]

If I wanted to get someone to believe something -- in this instance, a plausible story -- even I, and I'm not that bright, could come up with something better than a Virgin Birth and a talking jackass and walking on water and---- need I go on. Seriously, even you, as an aspiring author could come up with a more realistic scenario to believe than that which is dramatized in Scripture. For that matter, if I wanted to create for my fiction a plausible universe, one which would readily be grasped and believed, I'd have to think twice about including a planet with rings around it, and another with 12 moons, and none of them but one with the ability to sustain life. Seems to me the physical realm mirrors somewhat the strangeness of the miraculous recorded in Scripture.

Really? The Bible must be true because it's crappy?

 

That's what always got to me about Marx saying the Bible was nothing more than an opiate for the masses: if that's true, the medicine seems pretty hard to swallow (and believe) with every turn of the page. So which is it? Good fiction? Or a clever and well devised hoax that has survived generations of scrutiny. It can't be both.

And the Bible must be true because it's so good?

 

Crappy and Good. Sounds like Homer&Jethro again!

 

Btw, your description would also fit Judaism, Islam, Hinduism, Buddhism, Daoism, Paganism, Wicca ...

 

Islam could be a well devised hoax, even though it has survived, 2000 minus 600 years.

 

Since the Bible is good fiction, then you've give Judaism credit and validation too. Great! Now, which religion is the true one? Judaism, Kabbala, Catolicism, Calvinism, Lutheran ... etc?

[Amethyst]

So which is it? Good fiction? Or a clever and well devised hoax that has survived generations of scrutiny. It can't be both.

 

I think it's a clever hoax, and the only reason it's survived is because of the intergenerational brainwashing. IMHO, it's bad fiction because it's mostly plagiarized.

 

Seriously, even you, as an aspiring author could come up with a more realistic scenario to believe than that which is dramatized in Scripture.

 

Sure. But I wouldn't claim it was true, because I'm not a con artist.

 

And if we have a thermonuclear war, and civilization collapses and whoever's left saves the books, and several generations later somebody starts up a cult around my fantasy novel, or Harry Potter, or Star Wars, or LoTR, or whatever, that doesn't make it true.

 

For that matter, if I wanted to create for my fiction a plausible universe, one which would readily be grasped and believed, I'd have to think twice about including a planet with rings around it, and another with 12 moons, and none of them but one with the ability to sustain life. Seems to me the physical realm mirrors somewhat the strangeness of the miraculous recorded in Scripture. That's what always got to me about Marx saying the Bible was nothing more than an opiate for the masses: if that's true, the medicine seems pretty hard to swallow (and believe) with every turn of the page. So which is it? Good fiction? Or a clever and well devised hoax that has survived generations of scrutiny. It can't be both.

 

Even you admit that the Bible isn't plausible as fiction. So if it doesn't even stand up as fiction, how then can it stand up as absolute truth?

[Mythra]

Anyway. Isn't strange that the gospels are supposed to be eyewitness stories, while they tell legends about the birth of Jesus (none of the disciples where there), which they must have gotten from Mary (can we trust he story?), or when Jesus was praying and the disciples fell asleep, how do the writer know what Jesus did while they were sleeping? And so on...

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

All eyewitness accounts. Right.

 

Mark wasn't an eyewitness. Matthew was, but he just copied 70% of Mark, and fixed all of the geographical, theological, and timeline errors. Luke wasn't an eyewitness, he too copied from Mark and Q. And John was an eyewitness, but it's highly doubtful that John the disciple wrote the book of John.

 

What's funny is when christians cite a specific phrase from, say the book of John, and talk about it like it came right from Jesus' lips. Lets see now. The book of John was written 60 to 70 years after the date fixed for Jesus' supposed death.

Yet we have whole chapters that are nothing but the words of Jesus. And, like you said, Hans, sometimes Jesus' words are recorded when there was no one around to record them.

 

How bout Jesus' conversation with Pilate? You think that one of the disciples arranged an interview with Pilate and took notes of the conversation between the two of them after the fact?

 

You think you could remember verbatim something that someone said 5 years ago how bout 20 years ago? Maybe one sentence that stuck in your mind, but not entire solilequies that are several hundred words long.

 

Nicole: here was the point I was trying to make earlier. We said that in Matthew it says that only those who do the Father's will get to go to heaven. So, since that quote came from the book of Matthew, why don't you go ahead and give us something from Matthew that tells us what the Father's will is instead of jumping to the book of John?

 

If God's will for us is to "believe in the one he sent", then why didn't Matthew know about it? Seems kinda odd. Especially since Matthew spent just as much time with Jesus as John did.

[Nicole Simon]

Ever consider, Nicole, that there are some people whom God just won't reveal himself to...ever?

 

No.

 

You claim we can't put our own assumptions on god, but doesn't that include the assumption that he will eventually call?  By telling people to be patient, aren't you making that assumption while simultaneously telling us not to assume anything about god?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Again, no. It's no assumption. Either God will call on you while you're living, or you'll show up on His doorstep at the moment you take your last breath. One way or the other we're all headed for that face to face encounter. I don't know what more a person can do but ask sincerely, and once they've done that, be patient. What's so hard about living the golden rule and moving on from there. If you were truly sincere in asking, and God never got back to you, I don't see where it can be your fault. And I don't believe you'll find in the Bible that it is. It does say many are called in the last hour, maybe lying in a hospital bed. That would make it important not to abandon hope and miss out on that opportunity in the end. Sadly, many do. Having thought that God abandoned them, they went their own way, and in the end, when He came round for them...

[Nicole Simon]

Since the Bible is good fiction, then you've give Judaism credit and validation too. Great! Now, which religion is the true one? Judaism, Kabbala, Catolicism, Calvinism, Lutheran ... etc?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

The one that brings you closest to God. Pick one. Anyone. Your pain is palpable and causes me heartache, Han. You know that much, I hope. Gotta go. Busy day tomorrow.

[Nicole Simon]

Sorry, maybe I'm not getting something here about what you just posted but...why not?

 

Aren't hoaxes inherently fictions?  Or any narrative, for that matter?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

The delineation would focus on fiction serving to 'entertain' while a hoax is employed solely to deceive. One being benign, the other malevolent. ns

[Cerise]

No.

Again, no. It's no assumption. Either God will call on you while you're living, or you'll show up on His doorstep at the moment you take your last breath. One way or the other we're all headed for that face to face encounter. I don't know what more a person can do but ask sincerely, and once they've done that, be patient. What's so hard about living the golden rule and moving on from there. If you were truly sincere in asking, and God never got back to you, I don't see where it can be your fault. And I don't believe you'll find in the Bible that it is. It does say many are called in the last hour, maybe lying in a hospital bed. That would make it important not to abandon hope and miss out on that opportunity in the end. Sadly, many do. Having thought that God abandoned them, they went their own way, and in the end, when He came round for them...

 

What are you basing this reply on, if it is not an assumption? Have you received verbal communication from your god directly telling you that he will personally see to every single person alive or dead?

 

You state, all-believing perhaps, that god 1) exists, 2) cares whether or not we know him, and 3) will purposely introduce himself to everyone in order to ensure that they know him. What are you basing these statements on?

[Ouroboros]

No.

No never? There's never been a person that God didn't reveal himself to? Not even a fetus? What about before Jesus' time? Did God do it for all the pharaos in Egypt? All the Egyptians? All Persians? The Indians in America before Christopher Columbus?

 

Again, no. It's no assumption. Either God will call on you while you're living, or you'll show up on His doorstep at the moment you take your last breath. One way or the other we're all headed for that face to face encounter.

Which leads us to another question. If you never tell a person about Jesus, will God still reveal himself to them? Will he do that in the last minute before they die? Would a person have a better chance seing God the second before they die, instead of hearing a messed up and illogical gospel 10 years earlier? Maybe people would have a better chance to go to heaven if they meet God personally in the last second, instead of hearing the gospel from someone that have yet-another-interpretation of the word?

 

I don't know what more a person can do but ask sincerely, and once they've done that, be patient. What's so hard about living the golden rule and moving on from there. If you were truly sincere in asking, and God never got back to you, I don't see where it can be your fault. And I don't believe you'll find in the Bible that it is. It does say many are called in the last hour, maybe lying in a hospital bed. That would make it important not to abandon hope and miss out on that opportunity in the end. Sadly, many do. Having thought that God abandoned them, they went their own way, and in the end, when He came round for them...

Maybe, maybe not. You're founding this belief only on your belief, which is circular.

 

You can't document or find valid evidence for this theology to be real and accurate.

 

It might say so in in the Bible, but you need faith to believe this, and this faith comes from God, which you have to wait for and maybe get in the last second of your life. And truly, you have to pray with faith to begin with. To pray and ask without faith, you won't get anything (is that in Hebrew?). You when you ask, you need faith, but faith only comes from God, and God gives it in his time and only if you pray in faith, which you only can get from God, and so on... ad infinitum...

 

You can regard yourself lucky then, that you got this gift before your last minute in life, and without having to pray in faith to get it.

[Mythra]

Nicole: why don't you tell us how God has revealed himself to you. Did he make you all tingly? Or did he give you a feeling of peaceful certainty in your heart?

Did he open your eyes to the reality of the gospel and help you understand the scriptures? Or do you have something that might be remotely convincing?

 

If you've already talked about this, I missed it and I apologize in advance.

 

But....

 

The fact is that most of us who were christians also thought at one time that God revealed himself to us. We were just as sure of it as you are, Nicole. For me, I can say with absolute certainty that it was nothing more than wishful thinking and self-deception.

[Ouroboros]

The one that brings you closest to God. Pick one. Anyone.

Can I pick the cherry flavored one?

 

Your pain is palpable and causes me heartache, Han. You know that much, I hope.

No, I know. No hard feelings, we might think and believe different, and disagree on faith and how to interpret the Bible. But we're okay.

 

Gotta go. Busy day tomorrow.

Oh! There she goes again! Those Christians never stay to argue... ... JUST KIDDING!!!

 

***edit***

One thing you should know. I don't judge people or demand them changing their religion. I want them to see their own faith, in it's true light. Know yourself, but even more, know your religion (or faith, or whatever you'd like to put there.) And the best way is to grind it, mold it and roast it under the fire.

[Nicole Simon]

  IMHO, it's bad fiction because it's mostly plagiarized.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Sorry. I'm at a loss---- the Bible, you say, is plagiarized, meaning what? that people 'lifted' from the Bible? Or is it the other way around -- did you mean to say others stole from prior literature in order to write the Bible ...and if that's true (oh please, tell me that's what you believe!) ...from whom did they steal. 'They' in this instance being the 34 authors who wrote the Bible over the span of 1400 years. They must've taken meticulous notes and kept the lines of communication open--- somehow. But How? Do tell. That in itself is miraculous. Do you have any idea how difficult it is to sustain a narrative timeline within a novel -- let alone an epic? Please. Help me out here. Lucy!~ you got some 'splainin to do Lucy.

[Fweethawt]

I find it interesting, Becca....um....that you don't believe in God, yet you contain such malice towards it.  Isn't that kind of like being angry at Santa?

 

God is a concept....like Santa....that is used for many reasons relative to each person.  Now this concept is taken as a reality for some people, but why you?  Why say "God is a prick"?  Cuz he's not...

 

Asimov,

 

Please don't push these particular buttons. If I'm not mistaken, you were one of the lucky ones who were never really sucked into the religion, correct? If so, then you wouldn't know how "real" the personification of nothing can seem to a believer.

 

If one spends much of their life trying to communicate with this "nothing", only to find that this "nothing" never really existed, the disillusionment pains continue to blur the lines between fantasy and reality within the unbelieving mind long after rationality has taken hold.

 

It seems quite silly to someone who has never had to deal with it. I know.

 

It's just part of the growing pains, methinks.

[Ouroboros]

Sorry. I'm at a loss---- the Bible, you say, is plagiarized, meaning what? that people 'lifted' from the Bible? Or is it the other way around -- did you mean to say others stole from prior literature in order to write the Bible ...and if that's true (oh please, tell me that's what you believe!) ...from whom did they steal. 'They' in this instance being the 34 authors who wrote the Bible over the span of 1400 years. They must've taken meticulous notes and kept the lines of communication open--- somehow. But How? Do tell. That in itself is miraculous. Do you have any idea how difficult it is to sustain a narrative timeline within a novel -- let alone an epic? Please. Help me out here. Lucy!~ you got some 'splainin to do Lucy.

Now the action really starts! Read-set-go!

 

First, most of OT was put together (IIRC) 350 BCE.

 

And a big part of NT was written many years after Jesus death, and the theology could have developed quite a lot during that time. Besides, the Gospels were written in such way that the invented stories about Jesus would fit in into the "prophesies" in OT. That's not hard to do.

 

Mark and Matthew are based on one commone document.

John was written last, is have strong influences from Gnostic.

Jesus teachings have strong influence of Hellinistic Philosophy.

 

And much more to say... Well, now it's my turn to run... I'll post more later. This is the cool stuff Nicole. This is the part we love to talk about here.

L8R

[Fweethawt]

Nicole,

 

I see that you've jumped in head-first at some point today and that you're currently running the gauntlet. I see no need to continue with the "little" conversation that we started last night in light of the points being raised since then.

 

Maybe some other time?

 

Yeah. Some other time.

 

I'll wait till things slow down.

[Fweethawt]

And much more to say... Well, now it's my turn to run... I'll post more later. This is the cool stuff Nicole. This is the part we love to talk about here.

If she's fortunate, she has a cute butt and won't mind getting it handed back to her.

[Nicole Simon]

Nicole:  why don't you tell us how God has revealed himself to you.  Did he make you all tingly?  Or did he give you a feeling of peaceful certainty in your heart? 

Did he open your eyes to the reality of the gospel and help you understand the scriptures?  Or do you have something that might be remotely convincing? 

 

If you've already talked about this, I missed it and I apologize in advance.

 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Maybe someday ...if we get to know each other, and I can determine whether the above is sarcasm or sincerity. At the moment the scales are tipping toward you being a smart ass. But, hey, that's okay. That's your right. Just as it's my right to 'let you out up the road a ways.' And Mythra, dear, watch that door on your way out.

 

What difference is it to you what my particular experience is? Is it going to 'alter' the course of your life? I hardly think so -- and you know that, you do? So why bother asking, it only shows you disingenuous. We each have our own account and that's all we need be concerned with. It's not like we're going to die and be judged as a 'buck and wing' act. It's not vaudeville, sweetie.

[Nicole Simon]

Nicole,

 

I see that you've jumped in head-first at some point today and that you're currently running the gauntlet. I see no need to continue with the "little" conversation that we started last night in light of the points being raised since then.

 

Maybe some other time?

 

Yeah. Some other time.

 

I'll wait till things slow down. 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

"Running the gauntlet" ...You are too, too funny. And let me tell you, I for one, at this despairing point in time, appreciate it. PM me. I've got some things to attend to but I'll get back to you. k? Nicole

[Mythra]

Oh, I am most definitely a smart ass. But I think I'm right about God's revealing himself to you. Whatever it is can be explained by subjective emotionalism.

 

We just needed to clarify that God has NOT delivered some great revelation to you that none of us received because we were on the wrong side of predestination.

 

I'm comfortable with the conclusion being what it is.