I Have So Many Questions

[Mr. Neil]

I know a few women who have prayed and fasted for God to send them Godly husbands; they supposedly married 'great men of God' who turned out to be abusers, cheaters, liars, dead-beat dads, self-centered, etc. I also have friends who not christians who are married to wonderful worldly men. It is about character... a belief in Christ or going to church regularly has no bearing on one's character.

Matthew chapter 7 says that you shall recognize them by their fruit. Of course, they're talking about prophets of the Lord, but I don't think I'm being too far off the mark by bringing it up here.

 

I think Nara hit it right on the head. It's not very convincing of a religion to claim that an allegedly bad tree cannot bear good fruit when you, in fact, see it all the time.

 

It also says that a good tree (i.e., one that represents Christ) cannot bear bad fruit, but if you were to hop over to the Lion's Den sub-forum, you'll see that Justyna has been bearing a lot of dingleberries.

[Guest Justyna]

Nara,

 

I dont feel guilty when I mess up. When I mess up, I ask God to help turn me around from that sin and I accept His grace and pray that I would not do it again. Its that simple. I dont dwell on it forever and ever..as I believe Jesus takes the sin from us the moment I confess.

 

There are a lot of "good" people who are atheists, and who are from other religions. There are also some not so good Christians who go to church and are never changed by the power of God. Being "good" is not enough. Knowing Jesus and having a relationship wit Him is the key. I would hate for you to miss the boat, so to speak. You are at a crucial time right now, where you are making decisions. Make the right one.

 

Its also not about being "happy." I would not say that I am happy all the time. I would say that I have the joy of the Lord in me, but I am not happy all the time. Happy refers to what is happening to the outside. When you have the joy of the Lord, no matter what circumstance you are in, you can rejoice because He is with you! That is the difference.

 

Good luck to you.

[Adelice]

Atheists seem and are more happier and calmed than theist since they DONT have an god to follow , easy has that. Since i became an theist i must say my life been quite more difficult and confusing than when i was an atheist , when you are an atheist you dont have to worry if you have to please your deity , the certain path of life you gotta follow , youre pretty much free and where was god there is only an empty space wich most of the time doesnt need to be filled.

 

I understand were you coming from with this post , is never easy to ask yourself about your own beliefs , yet i WONT tell you that god doesnt exist neither all those things to delude you , it depends on what YOUR heart feels about your deity , how you interact with it , and if THAT DEITY makes ITSELF aparent to you , i wont say that theres no sense on following an empty deity who never answers YET its your personal choice , you gotta feel and decide what thing is the best for you , from the things yourself analized and lived with your deity.

 

Personally im not gonna say you gotta be an theist again neither you gotta go harcore atheist , just feel and live what seems the best path for you and follow it , yeah i admit christians piss me off to no limits sometimes , but i would feel still bad if i forced someone to be an atheist just cause im pissed or angry , just has i would feel awfully bad for someone right now telling me i couldnt follow what i want to believe ( irony here , dont mind it ).

 

Right now following my own deity is an personal choice i made , i mean it wouldnt matter to me if he was real or unreal or whatever , i still think is an cool character and even still i would like it. So dont feel bad or pissed off for " feeling " you got " deceived " or etc , you just gotta examine the reasons of why you wanna continue that path and why. I would recommend you to study a lot more into atheism , buddhism , islam , catholics , etc etc , all the religions you can BEFORE saying your an hardcore atheist. But yes i admit it , life withow an god is way too easier than one with one.

 

YET , finally but not LESS important , remember : atheism and any other form of not well known religion can be pretty lonely sometimes. You will be having an hard time and feel quite empty , wich can drain you up if youre not ready for it. Personally sometimes i look back into christians and wish i could join them , yet i feel i cant and i dont want to , sadly religion became an strong thing on society to only dismiss it that easy.

[Overcame Faith]

Nara,

 

I think atheists are happier than you because it just seems like that for now. The Bible talks about the Godless and how happy they are for a moment. And the keyword here being...moment. Dont be deceived.

 

 

Justyna,

 

I know the bible from Genesis to Revelation. I know what the Word says about how the 'wicked prosper.' I do appreciate your attempt to encourage me just like " Apostle Paul encouraged Timothy to remain faithful," but your efforts are futile. My sister told me that as soon as she was able to take responsibility for her own actions and not feel guilty about every mistake she's made, she's been much happier and it shows. I finally mustered the courage to aks her the question a few hours ago. I am beginning to think that life is about the choices we make.

 

I know a few women who have prayed and fasted for God to send them Godly husbands; they supposedly married 'great men of God' who turned out to be abusers, cheaters, liars, dead-beat dads, self-centered, etc. I also have friends who not christians who are married to wonderful worldly men. It is about character... a belief in Christ or going to church regularly has no bearing on one's character.

 

All my Christian friends and acquaintances are struggling with some sort of sins in their lives. They're never content nor satisfied. God is always working in them through the power of the Holy Ghost. They're always worried about pleasing God. When they fall into sin, they receive harsh criticism from their fellow Christians. Or they excuse their behavior by claiming that " I am a sinner saved by grace."

 

How can Christians be happy?

 

Nara, I'm glad you spoke with your sister. From what you write about her, she seems like a very understanding and loving person. You are fortunate to have her.

 

At this point, you are not forced to make a choice between atheism and christianity. What you are doing now is questioning whether christianity is true or not. Just take things one step at a time. Deal with the issue of christianity and you can save the big issue of whether there is a god for later. That's what I did. Once I determined that christianity is a false religion, I still maintained a belief that there was a god for about two years. It was only when I felt mentally ready that I finally tackled the last issue and decided that the god of the bible does not exist nor is there sufficient evidence that any god exists. You may come to a different conclusion about whether there is a deity of some sort, as many on this board have. But what we all (except for those who are labeled christians, like Justyna) share is the certainty that christianity is a false religion which corrupts and harms people.

[Overcame Faith]

Its also not about being "happy."

 

How sad.

[Ouroboros]

Nara,

 

I dont feel guilty when I mess up. When I mess up, I ask God to help turn me around from that sin and I accept His grace and pray that I would not do it again. Its that simple. I dont dwell on it forever and ever..as I believe Jesus takes the sin from us the moment I confess.

Exactly why Christianity is so messed up.

 

You can murder, and just say, "*oops* God, I'm sorry." And you feel you did something good.

 

It's sick.

 

If I do something bad to someone, I own up to it, take the punishment, and try to rectify it. I know my part and guilt in it, and will do what I can to fix it. And by knowing that this is what I do, I try to stay out of trouble. I feel guilt when I hurt someone, so if I avoid hurting other people, I don't have to fix it.

 

There are a lot of "good" people who are atheists, and who are from other religions.

Are you changing your tune a little? I thought all atheists were murderers and drunkards.

[Phanta]

Nara,

 

I think atheists are happier than you because it just seems like that for now. The Bible talks about the Godless and how happy they are for a moment. And the keyword here being...moment. Dont be deceived.

 

 

Justyna,

 

I know the bible from Genesis to Revelation. I know what the Word says about how the 'wicked prosper.' I do appreciate your attempt to encourage me just like " Apostle Paul encouraged Timothy to remain faithful," but your efforts are futile. My sister told me that as soon as she was able to take responsibility for her own actions and not feel guilty about every mistake she's made, she's been much happier and it shows. I finally mustered the courage to aks her the question a few hours ago. I am beginning to think that life is about the choices we make.

 

I know a few women who have prayed and fasted for God to send them Godly husbands; they supposedly married 'great men of God' who turned out to be abusers, cheaters, liars, dead-beat dads, self-centered, etc. I also have friends who not christians who are married to wonderful worldly men. It is about character... a belief in Christ or going to church regularly has no bearing on one's character.

 

Good thoughts, Nara.

 

Phanta

[Shyone]

How can Christians be happy?

I would call their happiness a facade, perhaps even mistaken, but with "freedom" and responsibility comes the burden of accepting blame and consequences. If you do something and screw up, you can't blame Jesus for "testing you" or whatever. You own it. When faced with difficult decisions, you have yourself, friends, relatives and a large body of human writing to support you, but no invisible guidance.

 

Christians may consider themselves blameless and "forgiven" so that they don't ever have to take responsibility for anything. Atheists must earn our forgiveness, and we find that it is better to think things out and hopefully avoid hurting others in the first place.

 

The realization that my decisions, affecting the lives of hundreds, were not supernaturally guided was, for me, earth shaking. I also no longer feel armor coated. As a result, I'm more thoughtful, careful, studious and prudent. I accept that responsibility because there really is no alternative. It's the way life is.

[Shyone]

Nara,

 

I think atheists are happier than you because it just seems like that for now. The Bible talks about the Godless and how happy they are for a moment. And the keyword here being...moment. Dont be deceived.

 

 

Justyna,

 

I know the bible from Genesis to Revelation. I know what the Word says about how the 'wicked prosper.' I do appreciate your attempt to encourage me just like " Apostle Paul encouraged Timothy to remain faithful," but your efforts are futile. My sister told me that as soon as she was able to take responsibility for her own actions and not feel guilty about every mistake she's made, she's been much happier and it shows. I finally mustered the courage to aks her the question a few hours ago. I am beginning to think that life is about the choices we make.

 

I know a few women who have prayed and fasted for God to send them Godly husbands; they supposedly married 'great men of God' who turned out to be abusers, cheaters, liars, dead-beat dads, self-centered, etc. I also have friends who not christians who are married to wonderful worldly men. It is about character... a belief in Christ or going to church regularly has no bearing on one's character.

 

Good thoughts, Nara.

 

Phanta

I second this.

[Phanta]

Its also not about being "happy." I would not say that I am happy all the time. I would say that I have the joy of the Lord in me, but I am not happy all the time. Happy refers to what is happening to the outside. When you have the joy of the Lord, no matter what circumstance you are in, you can rejoice because He is with you! That is the difference.

 

Happy is an emotion. Happy, sad, mad, glad, afraid: these are emotions inside our bodies.

 

Emotions in humans are triggered to varying degrees by outside influences, but the emotions themselves are inside us.

 

One who has the "Lord" "inside" them, merely has a strong code or touchstone which they can hang onto during tough times. Many people of all faiths and non-faith have a similar code or touchstone. Many people of all faiths and non-faith (including Christians) do not have such a strong touchstone. In this way, "the Lord" is not the only answer for humanity in this way. It is an answer for some people who, for whatever reason, have brains for which this appeals and works. For someone else, it is something else.

 

There are also many who are stuck--for complex reasons...indoctrination, fear, social standing--in a system that never brings peace to their minds. These are the people who dedicate their lives to a system, like Christianity, and yet never feel the comfort of that Touchstone.

 

There is another Touchstone in the world for them. You have found yours. Others find theirs elsewhere.

 

Phanta

[Phanta]

How can Christians be happy?

I would call their happiness a facade, perhaps even mistaken, but with "freedom" and responsibility comes the burden of accepting blame and consequences. If you do something and screw up, you can't blame Jesus for "testing you" or whatever. You own it. When faced with difficult decisions, you have yourself, friends, relatives and a large body of human writing to support you, but no invisible guidance.

 

Christians may consider themselves blameless and "forgiven" so that they don't ever have to take responsibility for anything. Atheists must earn our forgiveness, and we find that it is better to think things out and hopefully avoid hurting others in the first place.

 

More great thoughts. These got me thinking...the next step, after taking personal responsibility, is discerning how to best make amends, if at all. This is atonement, releasing a debt, payback. It's an important interpersonal issue of the human family.

 

What has struck me in my reading over the last couple years is that the Jews took this concept very seriously, which is why their punishments were so harsh. I also read a compelling argument that the bad behavior of many of "God's people" in the OT was meant to reflect the very messy situations people find themselves in in real life, to pose difficult moral questions to the Jews. It wasn't, as so many Christians take it, meant to illustrate Godly behavior. In other words, rather than answer questions clear as day, many of those old stories were meant to function as inspiration for contemplation and wresting with the real complexity of humanity. When they are taken as black & white & simple instruction of how to be Godly, that's not what the authors intended. However, that response does speak to the maturity of the individual or sect.

 

So, instead of doing the hard work of wrestling that the Jews were doing, the Christians took the impossible demands of the Jewish code and softened it to the opposite extreme to the point of eliminating hard work and replacing it with magic and abstract fantasy.

 

I get the need to address both responsibility for trespasses as well as crippling guilt. Biblical authors over the centuries clearly struggled deeply with these issues. But the collection of books we call the Bible has been prevented from evolving with the council of Nicea. It went from being a growing book of complex ideas to something jammed up. Arrested development. That's a shame.

 

Just some recent thoughts. Reading your piece, Shy, brought them together for me.

 

Phanta

[Ouroboros]

What has struck me in my reading over the last couple years is that the Jews took this concept very seriously, which is why their punishments were so harsh. I also read a compelling argument that the bad behavior of many of "God's people" in the OT was meant to reflect the very messy situations people find themselves in in real life, to pose difficult moral questions to the Jews. It wasn't, as so many Christians take it, meant to illustrate Godly behavior. In other words, rather than answer questions clear as day, many of those old stories were meant to function as inspiration for contemplation and wresting with the real complexity of humanity. When they are taken as black & white & simple instruction of how to be Godly, that's not what the authors intended. However, that response does speak to the maturity of the individual or sect.

 

So, instead of doing the hard work of wrestling that the Jews were doing, the Christians took the impossible demands of the Jewish code and softened it to the opposite extreme to the point of eliminating hard work and replacing it with magic and abstract fantasy.

 

That's what I learned a few years ago too. I'm not sure if it was some course in philosophy or theology, but I do remember that part. The stories in the OT was meant for contemplation of the complexity of morality, not a moral policy like Christians take it.

 

I get the need to address both responsibility for trespasses as well as crippling guilt. Biblical authors over the centuries clearly struggled deeply with these issues. But the collection of books we call the Bible has been prevented from evolving with the council of Nicea. It went from being a growing book of complex ideas to something jammed up. Arrested development. That's a shame.

I like where you're going with this. If Christianity had let the Bible evolved more and added/removed books to fit current culture, they might have been the rulers of the world. But when they stopped, and the world moved on, the religion is slowly dying out--suffocating.

[Nara]

Nara,

 

I dont feel guilty when I mess up. When I mess up, I ask God to help turn me around from that sin and I accept His grace and pray that I would not do it again. Its that simple. I dont dwell on it forever and ever..as I believe Jesus takes the sin from us the moment I confess.

 

There are a lot of "good" people who are atheists, and who are from other religions. There are also some not so good Christians who go to church and are never changed by the power of God. Being "good" is not enough. Knowing Jesus and having a relationship wit Him is the key. I would hate for you to miss the boat, so to speak. You are at a crucial time right now, where you are making decisions. Make the right one.

 

Its also not about being "happy." I would not say that I am happy all the time. I would say that I have the joy of the Lord in me, but I am not happy all the time. Happy refers to what is happening to the outside. When you have the joy of the Lord, no matter what circumstance you are in, you can rejoice because He is with you! That is the difference.

 

Good luck to you.

 

Justyna,

 

My own mother married a minister (who is still preaching the gospel to this day). My father abused my mother emotionally and physically. He had several mistresses in the church; he fathered several children out of wedlock. To top it off, when I was eight years-old, he abandoned my mother and all his children to move in with one of his mistresses. Despite the fact that my father ridiculed the gospel by his actions, I still remained strong in my faith. His behavior has no impact on my decision to investigate the Christian religion. It is about knowledge for "Without knowledge, the people perish."

 

Justyna, I am an educated woman with a master's degree who believed that in the beginning, a Talking Snake caused Eve to sin against God; thus, I am a sinner. I was taught that God parted the Red Sea so that the children of Israel could flee out of Egypt (there is no evidence of the so-called mass exodus). I learned in Sunday school that God ordered the murder of entire nations so that the Jews could steal their lands. Don't tell me that in OT times, we were under the law. The bible clearly states that the Law was given to the children of Israel, not to us. I could go on and on, but I am just angry.

 

Stop responding to my post, I don't need your help. If I need to hear that I am going to burn in hell for questioning the Christian religion, I will call my mother. I have many legalistic friends who would be more than happy to cast the spirit of doubt out of me. Why don't you become a member on a Muslim website to preach the word. As a matter of fact, the first list of bible contradictions that I came across was compiled by a Muslim scholar. Please, tell that scholar that Allah is not the true God.

[Midnight-mindwanderings]

Nara I really admire you for what you are doing. I also admire the way you are handling questions, support and criticism on this thread. Its really impressive to see

 

Your responses to Justyna are especially good. Having to defend yourself can be hard but I think it can show where you stand. However if the interaction with her is not appreciated maybe a MOD can move the thread to Ex-C testimonies where there can be no proselytizing.

 

There is a lot of good stuff going on in this thread and I don't have much to add except thanks and all the best of luck to you. I hope you feel welcome here.

[VeryBerry]

Nara, was your father a bigamist? He sounds a lot like mine. My father was a baptist minister who slept around and abused my mother as well. He stopped preaching the gospel after being expelled from his last church.

 

I don't remember you from the main blog either. Did you change your screen name?

 

I am in the process of deconverting myself. unlike you, I don't know any atheists. Keep searching! Don't give up!

[Ouroboros]

Your responses to Justyna are especially good. Having to defend yourself can be hard but I think it can show where you stand. However if the interaction with her is not appreciated maybe a MOD can move the thread to Ex-C testimonies where there can be no proselytizing.

I like that. Even though Nara isn't a full-fledged Ex-Christian, I think she deserves to be in a safer forum.

 

So be it. Moved to Testimonies.

[Moxie]

Nara,

 

I dont feel guilty when I mess up. When I mess up, I ask God to help turn me around from that sin and I accept His grace and pray that I would not do it again. Its that simple. I dont dwell on it forever and ever..as I believe Jesus takes the sin from us the moment I confess.

 

There are a lot of "good" people who are atheists, and who are from other religions. There are also some not so good Christians who go to church and are never changed by the power of God. Being "good" is not enough. Knowing Jesus and having a relationship wit Him is the key. I would hate for you to miss the boat, so to speak. You are at a crucial time right now, where you are making decisions. Make the right one.

 

Its also not about being "happy." I would not say that I am happy all the time. I would say that I have the joy of the Lord in me, but I am not happy all the time. Happy refers to what is happening to the outside. When you have the joy of the Lord, no matter what circumstance you are in, you can rejoice because He is with you! That is the difference.

 

Good luck to you.

 

 

Not feeling guilty about wrongdoing is the same way sociopaths process their wrongs. This is what is so messed up about christianity. People in christianity think they can just plow over whomever they want, then ask their god for forgiveness and, voila, it's all right. They end up leaving a humongous wake of pain and hurt behind them. If Jesus takes the sin away the moment you confess, that doesn't mean anything to the people you hurt. What about the people you hurt? You need to ask THEM for forgiveness, and really feel remorse for wrongdoing.

 

Being good, and being the best we can be IS the key. I have met more kind, loving and caring non-christians who helped me when I was sick and befriended me without judgment. I'm not saying that all non-christians are loving, but believing in Jesus will not help anyone.

 

Being happy is a choice, and it's an important one. You are the only one you have to live with ALL the time, so you can either be your best friend or your worst enemy. I would not be happy if I had to depend on an imaginary friend all the time instead of real physical people. I'm happy, joyful and at peace when I have REAL interaction with REAL human beings.

[Nara]

Your responses to Justyna are especially good. Having to defend yourself can be hard but I think it can show where you stand. However if the interaction with her is not appreciated maybe a MOD can move the thread to Ex-C testimonies where there can be no proselytizing.

I like that. Even though Nara isn't a full-fledged Ex-Christian, I think she deserves to be in a safer forum.

 

So be it. Moved to Testimonies.

 

Thanks Ouroboros. Justyna was getting on my nerves. I hear enough of that rambling from close friends and family members.

[Ouroboros]

No problem. You need the space.

[Nara]

Nara, was your father a bigamist? He sounds a lot like mine. My father was a baptist minister who slept around and abused my mother as well. He stopped preaching the gospel after being expelled from his last church.

 

I don't remember you from the main blog either. Did you change your screen name?

 

I am in the process of deconverting myself. unlike you, I don't know any atheists. Keep searching! Don't give up!

 

Veryberry,

 

I read your testimonial on the main blog. My father was a pentecostal preacher who hated baptists. He thought that there were phonies...how ironic! My dad had to pay child support because those women took him to court.

 

I did change my screen name. How is your deconversion process going?

[Phanta]

What has struck me in my reading over the last couple years is that the Jews took this concept very seriously, which is why their punishments were so harsh. I also read a compelling argument that the bad behavior of many of "God's people" in the OT was meant to reflect the very messy situations people find themselves in in real life, to pose difficult moral questions to the Jews. It wasn't, as so many Christians take it, meant to illustrate Godly behavior. In other words, rather than answer questions clear as day, many of those old stories were meant to function as inspiration for contemplation and wresting with the real complexity of humanity. When they are taken as black & white & simple instruction of how to be Godly, that's not what the authors intended. However, that response does speak to the maturity of the individual or sect.

 

So, instead of doing the hard work of wrestling that the Jews were doing, the Christians took the impossible demands of the Jewish code and softened it to the opposite extreme to the point of eliminating hard work and replacing it with magic and abstract fantasy.

 

That's what I learned a few years ago too. I'm not sure if it was some course in philosophy or theology, but I do remember that part. The stories in the OT was meant for contemplation of the complexity of morality, not a moral policy like Christians take it.

 

Oh, neat! Yeah, I immediately started enjoying the OT more when I looked at it that way. It came alive for me! Not that every aspect of the Pentateuch reflects this technique, I reckon, but many more of the stories suddenly became intriguing puzzles not to be solved, but to facilitate moral growth via the process of struggling (for it is through struggling that we grow...no struggle means no growth). They were not meant to dictate answers, but to challenge and bring up more questions with which thoughtful humans may find beneficial to wrestle.

 

I believe I read the idea in Max Dimont's The Jews, God, and History. I do remember that, after reading it, aspects of Genesis, at least, made a whole lot more sense.

 

One of my least favorite bits in the Bible is the story of Abraham and Isaac. Of course, the Christian (fanatic) view is simply that you do what God says to do, period, no matter how dear the sacrifice, and even if you have a history of hallucinations and psychosis (a.k.a. DEMONS!). Despite the extreme nature of the story, this seems to be the message. But one day I found, on a Jewish blog or forum or such, a serious discussion about the possibility that God was testing Abraham to see if he would follow the law of no murder. One poster was asking if Abraham may have actually failed God's test by attempting to kill his son, even as he passed the test of faith. What interested me here was the struggle, and what that struggle said of the individuals engaged in it...far more interesting than the blind, black-and-white emotionalism and escapism of fundamentalist and literalist Christianity.

 

One way I admire committed "liberal" Christians is that, in a way, they are like the ancient Jews, struggling with complex ideas about God. Sometimes it is just plain cherry picking...but so often they are engaging a thoughtful spiritual/moral/ethical struggle in a complicated, grey world & Bible.

 

I get the need to address both responsibility for trespasses as well as crippling guilt. Biblical authors over the centuries clearly struggled deeply with these issues. But the collection of books we call the Bible has been prevented from evolving with the council of Nicea. It went from being a growing book of complex ideas to something jammed up. Arrested development. That's a shame.

 

I like where you're going with this. If Christianity had let the Bible evolved more and added/removed books to fit current culture, they might have been the rulers of the world. But when they stopped, and the world moved on, the religion is slowly dying out--suffocating.

 

Yeah! I know I'm not as well read in the Bible as most, and I've been reading more in the last couple of years. The shifts I observe in the "contradictions" between the OT and NT is reflective of the things we humans see all the time, even out of religion, that are contradictory or even paradoxical, and also reflective of a growth of ideas. Whatever I think of the morality of the various Biblical authors, many (most?) of them were extremely thoughtful. They wrestled, as I do, as psychology does, as physics does, to put order to a very confusing reality. The issues their thoughts arose from are real struggles for humanity, and in some cases, their ideas are even interesting (to me). But situations are really, really complicated.

 

What I hear from you folks (I haven't read this far) is that the Jews got super-duper into rules. It's something they tried. It's what they thought God wanted, and so it was attributed to God. But then it didn't work. So instead of saying, "Oh gee...we didn't quite hit on the way to be" (I think of being in tune with the Tao, here), some continued to try (orthodox), others gave up, and yet others changed what "God" wanted (these would become Christians)-- i.e changed the directive from God, which is different from saying that we didn't understand the message right in the first place. Rather than seeing the Torah as a document of changing human seeking/understanding/behavior, it became a changed directive from God. Thus, Christianity. Thus, later, Islam. Yet another "change" from God, rather than an understanding of different peoples trying out different ideas and getting some stuff kinda right and some stuff kinda wrong.

 

Before I started reading the Bible, I read Anita Daimont's The Red Tent", a novel about Dinah. In this novel, the women of the family are still Pagans, and Jacob is a follower of monotheism. After reading the book, I decided to read that section of the Bible, including the bit where Rachel steals the house idols from her father's house, and that made sense. It's evidence of a cultural shift from paganism to monotheism where families were still mixed in their beliefs.

 

I found a review of the book where a Christian was railing about Daimont's inaccurate portrayal of these women as pagans, where surely they were pure-hearted monotheists with YHWH at their center.

 

I didn't get it. I just didn't get it. There the idols were, clear as day in the Bible! Traces of history, traces of human struggle and religious development! And yet, from this Christian, such total, simple thinking.

 

I also sense traces of this in the Isaac/Abraham story. I know that the commonality of human sacrifice in the ancient middle east is hotly debated, but if it was occurring near the people who were authoring the Bible, it makes sense that the story would be a step in the right direction among people prone to proving "their God" was better than the next tribe's "God". What more powerful deity is there than one who would be served in any way by it's followers? What more devastating sacrifice could one offer to a mighty God than one's own offspring? If a deity isn't worth the greatest sacrifice, is it worth anything at all, especially in the eyes of an enemy who sizes the competition up by the strength of it's God (as dictated, at least in part, by how it's people worship it)?

 

So, the tribe had to be willing to make the greatest sacrifice, both to appease YHWH's tribe in regards to the power of their deity, but also to show the other tribes as well. However, if this tribe experiences a moral development as a collective, that sacrificing one's own was wrong, simultaneous to this inter-tribal social pressure, they would need to serve both points -- discontinuing human sacrifice, but proving their God was worthy of just as big a sacrifice as the next tribe's. In this case, this is the best they could do, apparently. Had they not still been in such a volatile, bloody place in history, the story might have looked very different.

 

I see this story, and I see moral development. Historically interesting, but something most societies have moved well past. When the story itself is literally revered and worshiped as guidance for the present--and many of you know people who said they would raise hands against offspring in violence if they thought it was God's will--I'm more than a little disturbed. That, to me, is fanaticism over a tale that seems (to me) merely a marker of a period in the moral development of the human collective.

 

Anyway. That was long.

 

Phanta

[ShallowByThyGame]

When I was where you are, although perhaps more free in that I was not as emotionally attached to the community as you seem to be, I asked myself this.

 

"I want it to be true, but I want to be able to explain that it is true. I can only do this if I am willing to look at the matter impartially, and if it is true, then the world will show it to be true."

 

I believed that because Christianity was correct, one could only strengthen one's faith by studying it, and comparing it to other 'false' ideas. That way we could comfort ourselves and others instead of doubting.

 

Of course, the evidence of the real world does not support Christianity, but when I began to understand the dissonance between what the church wants you to accept as truth, and what is reasonable given how the world actually works, I was not afraid or sad, but I became inspired. There was a door that noone was going through, lest it hurt their faith, but the other side was a place of nirvana. Answers that make sense, and a sense of belonging to something bigger than the bible ever imagined. The truth set my heart free, and I feel like I became fully human.

 

By owning ourselves, we control our destinies. If there is trouble we must either fix it ourselves, or admit it is not a problem. When we suffer we know it is not a sign that we are failing to please an unseen master.

 

I hope that you will resolve to open that door, and to value truth above all things. If we are to do good in this world, then we must first understand it. And understanding requires going where you have not gone before.

 

"Faith is a cop-out. It is intellectual bankruptcy. If the only way you can accept an assertion is by faith, then you are conceding that it can’t be taken on its own merits." — Dan Barker

[ShackledNoMore]

Nara,

 

I dont feel guilty when I mess up. When I mess up, I ask God to help turn me around from that sin and I accept His grace and pray that I would not do it again. Its that simple. I dont dwell on it forever and ever..as I believe Jesus takes the sin from us the moment I confess.

Exactly why Christianity is so messed up.

 

You can murder, and just say, "*oops* God, I'm sorry." And you feel you did something good.

 

It's sick.

Yep.

 

There's another element in play, too: since Christianity imposes an assumption of depravity for all mankind, it forces a struggle against "our sinful nature" even after we have been "sanctified" and have "Jesus / the Holy Spirit in our hearts."

 

It is illustrated quite clearly in an oft quoted passage of Ephesians that it central to this mindset: "Put on the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil. For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places."

 

Christians, I think (particularly so for evangelicals and Catholics) have to slip up at least in minor ways or at least have to be constantly vigilant fighting against temptation and sin whether there is any true temptation and evil to struggle against or not. When we can't point to real life evidence of how depraved we are, a lot of artificial sins, typically normal elements of human nature, are either created for us explicitly from Biblical text or the pulpit or derived from our idea of how a Christian should behave and/or feel. Sexual desire, anger, annoyance, impatience, strong language, to name a few are there to show us how we have "fallen short of the glory of God." For the purpose of retaining membership and control, it is useful because it keeps the faithful ever reminded of their need for god. And yes, I think this probably does create stress and reduce happiness for many.

 

Unfortunately, being such imperfect humans and always being tempted or falling short has the tragic side effect of overemphasizing little "sins" (which even in themselves are supposed to qualify us to deserve an eternity in hell, save for the grace of a "perfect" god) and underplay those heinous acts, such as murder, from which we can obtain forgiveness from god as easily as we can be forgiven for saying "damn it."

 

It's really not that hard to not go around doing bad things and being a jerk on a regular basis ("sin" in Christian parlance) whether you're a Christian or not.

[Nara]

Nara, was your father a bigamist? He sounds a lot like mine. My father was a baptist minister who slept around and abused my mother as well. He stopped preaching the gospel after being expelled from his last church.

 

I don't remember you from the main blog either. Did you change your screen name?

 

I am in the process of deconverting myself. unlike you, I don't know any atheists. Keep searching! Don't give up!

 

VeryBerry,

 

You are quite gorgeous. I am straight BTW LOL. But, you are one beautiful black woman. Thanks for letting me see your pic before you erased your profile on that networking site. I wish I had an hour glass shape. No wonder the church leaders wouldn't let you dress sexy. I wouldn't want my man around you either.

 

Thanks for accepting my apology.

[Nara]

Nara,

 

I dont feel guilty when I mess up. When I mess up, I ask God to help turn me around from that sin and I accept His grace and pray that I would not do it again. Its that simple. I dont dwell on it forever and ever..as I believe Jesus takes the sin from us the moment I confess.

Exactly why Christianity is so messed up.

 

You can murder, and just say, "*oops* God, I'm sorry." And you feel you did something good.

 

It's sick.

Yep.

 

There's another element in play, too: since Christianity imposes an assumption of depravity for all mankind, it forces a struggle against "our sinful nature" even after we have been "sanctified" and have "Jesus / the Holy Spirit in our hearts."

 

It is illustrated quite clearly in an oft quoted passage of Ephesians that it central to this mindset: "Put on the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil. For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places."

 

Christians, I think (particularly so for evangelicals and Catholics) have to slip up at least in minor ways or at least have to be constantly vigilant fighting against temptation and sin whether there is any true temptation and evil to struggle against or not. When we can't point to real life evidence of how depraved we are, a lot of artificial sins, typically normal elements of human nature, are either created for us explicitly from Biblical text or the pulpit or derived from our idea of how a Christian should behave and/or feel. Sexual desire, anger, annoyance, impatience, strong language, to name a few are there to show us how we have "fallen short of the glory of God." For the purpose of retaining membership and control, it is useful because it keeps the faithful ever reminded of their need for god. And yes, I think this probably does create stress and reduce happiness for many.

 

Unfortunately, being such imperfect humans and always being tempted or falling short has the tragic side effect of overemphasizing little "sins" (which even in themselves are supposed to qualify us to deserve an eternity in hell, save for the grace of a "perfect" god) and underplay those heinous acts, such as murder, from which we can obtain forgiveness from god as easily as we can be forgiven for saying "damn it."

 

It's really not that hard to not go around doing bad things and being a jerk on a regular basis ("sin" in Christian parlance) whether you're a Christian or not.

 

According to my fundy mother, having sex before marriage is like murdering someone. Telling white lies is a little sin. Being a homosexual is one of the greatest sin that a Christian can commit.

Justyna's God is more understanding than the God of the bible.