Some Sort of Proof

[spamandham]

First hint:  An atheist is not someone who is simply unchurched and gets drunk all day.  It's quite the contrary.

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Speak for yourself.

[All Gods Fail]

I think you hit on what I have been trying to understand myself. There is this mysterious strength within, but is it us or some other influence?

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I can only tell you what my experience is, but that strength was no external agent like god, or a spirit, or a 'lifeforce'. It's just us. Humans are pretty amazing creatures capable of heroic acts, or terrible crimes, with no 'spirits' possessing them to give them courage or corrupt their will.

 

An aside - I'm a recovering alkie (13+ years) and I did it with no god. My higher power was freewill. Once you realize that you're the one who makes the tough decisions, with gods or without, Jesus and god don't seem all that necessary. Or real.

[Ouroboros]

An aside - I'm a recovering alkie (13+ years) and I did it with no god. My higher power was freewill. Once you realize that you're the one who makes the tough decisions, with gods or without, Jesus and god don't seem all that necessary. Or real.

Well done. Glad to hear there are people that can pull themselves together with their own strength. Amazing!

[Cerise]

Well, traditonal slander aside--and established beliefs--why wouldn't He?  He created us--why wouldn't He have the ultimate responsibility to each and every one of us?

 

Because if he did, he's doing a crap job at it. And it's pretty much impossible for someone perfect to do a crap job at anything.

 

We tend to think that when we don't discover events and situations to bear up against what we think we have the right to expect from God, 

that He doesn't care, or 'allows' bad things to happen, or that He toys with us.  No where are we promised a happy go lucky life free of human pain, stresses, and difficulties.  I personally don't see how such a care-free life would build anyone's character or bring them closer to a divine state of thinking--it's the main ingredient of a spoiled brat, IMO. 

 

Ah crap, another pain = enlightenment thinker. No offense, but whenever I see someone take that kind of attitude, I get to thinking that they really haven't experienced enough pain to be able to preach about its benefits to the rest of us.

 

I've had some pretty stiff times in my life, and hardships, and at the time they were , in fact they were the worst time I've ever endured.  Sometimes I wondered if the sun would ever shine again, and in no way would I want to even think about having to repeat any of them.  But not for one minute do I think any harm was done to me, and when I truly look at the 'me' before and the 'me' after--I realize I was done more good than I was ever done harm.

 

And of course, you would feel the same way if you died from your pain, right? Or someone else died? No harm, no foul? Maybe pain did you some good. You still have no right to insinuate that pain is doing the millions of children around the world get fucked into the ground by life any good at all. That child just sold into sex slavery in Guatamala? She's not benefiting from her pain. That mother her just watched her baby die from starvation because she can't eat enough to produce milk? She's not benefiting from her pain. There are MANY MANY PEOPLE who aren't building character or some other shit through pain.

 

This kind of attitude towards pain, I've seen in many Christians. It's part of what irritates me about the religion. It's an attitude that just brushes the pain of others by without trying to do anything about it. It's an attitude that looks at starving children and says "screw you, the weight-loss will do you some good in the long run" and then runs off to have a sandwhich. And then complains of persecution when the extra lettuce is left off the sandwhich.

[Asuryan]

  You still have no right to insinuate that pain is doing the millions of children around the world get fucked into the ground by life any good at all.  That child just sold into sex slavery in Guatamala?  She's not benefiting from her pain.  That mother her just watched her baby die from starvation because she can't eat enough to produce milk?  She's not benefiting from her pain.  There are MANY MANY PEOPLE who aren't building character or some other shit through pain.

 

Agreed with Cerise 100%.

Why is it that christians *NEED* so much to believe that pain is something good and holy, something to be cherished and accepted, instead of something to fight off with all of your might, no matter if it happens to other people or to you?

Oh, yeah, of course they need to believe that pain is a precious gift from the all-loving god, or they would never be able why this all-loving god lets people from all over the world suffer and die horribly. This makes me sick.

 

This complacent attitude is IMHO the main cultural reason why so many people look at the news, look at the children starving to death or being initiated as sex slaves at just 10 or 11 (...and our civilized, refined occidental rich men, all fat with their dollars or euros, go there only to have sex with children, since there are no laws against pedophily in such places or they are not enforced) then they sigh, they shake their head, they murmur "Poor kids... let's hope they will die soon, so that they will go to heaven and God will heal their suffering." WTF?? Why do they need to DIE for their sufferings to be healed?? Why, if there is an allpowerful god that could stop all that shit without as much as the snap of his fingers?

 

Let me tell you something, annie. I've been raped, like other people on these boards. Was it painful, that and the consequences of the fact? Yes. Did it help to strenghten my character? Yes. But you know what? Your argument is pure shit.

Ever noticed how old men always say that they endured hardships, ate everything they had in their plate without anything going to waste, knew discipline and so on, and all because war has tempered their character? Well you DON'T see people starting wars deliberately for their... educative, character strenghtening value, right?

When a bone is broken, and then the fracture heals, the point where the bone was broken becomes much stronger, more resistant. Do you see people going around and breaking others' legs and arms just so that they can develop better, stronger bones? Of course not.

And since rape strenghtens personality, especially when done on a little child, why don't you go around and abuse some children? Think how HAPPY they will be, in just ten, or twenty, or even fifty years, they will be so happy because they will be stronger, heck maybe they will even thank you with tears in their eyes.

 

Oh wait, it doesn't work this way, right? It would be cruel to rape a child... And it would be cruel to watch, unmoved (or moved to tears but standing still and doing nothing nonetheless...) while such a rape takes place, right?

Well that is what your GOD is doing. He stays there. Does nothing. What a cruel motherfucker.

[MQTA]

yeah, the joke is on us. Enki & Enlil are long gone and they never really cared about us anyway, we were just their gold mining slaves. If not for Enki, Enlil woulda wiped us out quite a few times.

 

The apparent duality of God in the book of Genesis is thus explained by the often opposing actions of Enki and Enlil.  Enlil expels Adam and Eve; Enki clothes them.  Enlil gives the old heave ho to Cain; Enki protects him.  Enlil brings about a flood; Enki assists a Noah in building an ark.  And so forth and so on.  Even the Jesuits of the Catholic Church have begun to acknowledge the reality of at least two gods in the story of Genesis.  Considering what we know of the Anunnaki and the elohim, there are a whole slew of Gods and Goddesses in the story of Genesis. 

 

The Sumerian texts really give Genesis a whole new view

[spamandham]

There are MANY MANY PEOPLE who aren't building character or some other shit through pain.

 

This kind of attitude towards pain, I've seen in many Christians.  It's part of what irritates me about the religion.  It's an attitude that just brushes the pain of others by without trying to do anything about it.  It's an attitude that looks at starving children and says "screw you, the weight-loss will do you some good in the long run" and then runs off to have a sandwhich.  And then complains of persecution when the extra lettuce is left off the sandwhich.

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An eloquent summary of the hypocrisy that drives me nuts within that stupid religion.

[MQTA]

I don't think I read all the pages at that site, but I spent a few weeks and a good 6-18 hours a day reading, sleeping, reading, sleeping. Shed a lot of light on how we probably developed all those stories.

 

The frightening part is, it makes sense! The big picture sure is wild.

 

Whatever it was, it seems to have happened a few thou years ago, and then about 2k years ago they gave a final send off and split. We've been moving on the momentum of that event ever since... sufficiently at odds with each other so that we'll never have another Babel situation where we all speak the same language AND have true world peace.

 

Whirled peas is more like it

[MQTA]

or is the internet the next Tower?

[Amethyst]

This complacent attitude is IMHO the main cultural reason why so many people look at the news, look at the children starving to death or being initiated as sex slaves at just 10 or 11 (...and our civilized, refined occidental rich men, all fat with their dollars or euros, go there only to have sex with children, since there are no laws against pedophily in such places or they are not enforced) then they sigh, they shake their head, they murmur "Poor kids... let's hope they will die soon, so that they will go to heaven and God will heal their suffering." WTF?? Why do they need to DIE for their sufferings to be healed?? Why, if there is an allpowerful god that could stop all that shit without as much as the snap of his fingers

 

Agree completely.

 

Also agree w/ Cerise completely.

 

My cube mate said the other day that "a little suffering is good for you." Anyone who believes that is seriously deluded. This is not just a Christian attitude, but an American attitude, that needs to be readjusted.

[Amethyst]

or is the internet the next Tower?

 

Well, there is Babelfish. But any god who would destroy people for trying to understand each other and have a peaceful society through communication is not a god worth worshipping.

[MQTA]

well, yeah, there's that, too.

 

I'll keep my illusions or imaginations of my unexplanable experiences as if there is a creator of all things that really gives a sh1t about any of us, then I am doing exactly what He would approve of. The System seems to work well, ya get too cocky, you have accidents or 'slaps in the face', and you either learn from them, or don't realize you should have, and then get slapped again.

 

He says I'm now on the proper path for me, and if it ain't up to his standards, oh well, I tried. A for effort. Ya make me spend my whole life trying to heal wounds and then ya gonna threaten me with eternal hell? yeah, right. Not my YIF.

[Huntsvil]

Did any one watch that Jim Carey movie where he becomes God for a moment?

Let me get this straight, you all want freedom to believe and do what ever you want when ever you want to. But have you considered being in God's place and having the power to stop all pain? How would YOU do it. I believe you would begin by taking away certain freedoms that could cause pain. Why, didnt God warn Adam and Eve about the tree of knowledge? (humor me here, ok?) Why would He not want us to have all knowledge? Could it be that we might get into trouble with it? Kinda like a baby with power tools. You can give a child everything, but is everything safe?

I am just wanting us all to think here, thats all. Contrary to what you might think of believers.

[Ouroboros]

Did any one watch that Jim Carey movie where he becomes God for a moment?

First of all, the movie gives a wrong picture of God. God is considered to be all powerful, omnipotent, which means that he can create and fix everything in one instance. He doesn't need to plan, meet, arrange, walk, search, find, manipulate, but only to say one word and it's fixed. And he can do it for one billion trillion fantazillion things at the same time, otherwise he's not omnipotent, but limited.

 

God would also know all and everyone's problems simultaneous because he's omniscient, he knows everything as of right now. He doesn't have to get a prayer request, or an email to know. He already knows. He also knows if you're going to pray for it or not. And he knows if he's going to answer to your prayer or not, because he has already made up his mind.

 

There is no way a finite mind can understand infinites.

 

Let me get this straight, you all want freedom to believe and do what ever you want when ever you want to. But have you considered being in God's place and having the power to stop all pain? How would YOU do it.

By using the magic power of "Let it be done.", and that would be it.

 

You believe in a Heaven, don't you? How can Heaven exist without pain and suffering and evil? So it is not only possible to solve all problems, according to your faith, but it is already solved.

 

I would take everyone home to heaven in an instance, just like God supposedly did with Enoch and Elijah.

 

I believe you would begin by taking away certain freedoms that could cause pain. Why, didnt God warn Adam and Eve about the tree of knowledge? (humor me here, ok?)

He did warn them. He told Adam not to eat. But the problem was that Adam was to stupid to understand, because the same fruit he wasn't allowed to eat, was the same fruit that would give him the ability to understand that it was wrong to eat it. It was a planned and cunning setup, by God, from start. God wanted sin to get into the world. God wanted evil to exist. It was his plan.

 

Why would He not want us to have all knowledge? Could it be that we might get into trouble with it?

Then he should have put the cherubim with the flaming sword at the tree from start, not after it was too late. God knew what he was doing, and he knew what was going to happen. He wanted us to have knowledge, sin and evil, just to create the need for us to ask him for forgiveness. (Hypothetical speaking)

 

Kinda like a baby with power tools. You can give a child everything, but is everything safe?

I wouldn't put it in front of the 2 year old baby, with the cord plugged in, tell the kid it's dangerous and then leave the room. The baby will play with it because it doesn't know better. And I would be charged with child abuse.

 

  I am just wanting us all to think here, thats all. Contrary to what you might think of believers.

You don't think I have thought about it? I know what you're saying, and those arguments are about 15-20 years old for me now. But the last year I have realized what was wrong with the argument, and you haven't yet. So I'm a couple of miles ahead of you mister. Pick up the pace, and try to catch up!

[Asuryan]

Why, didnt God warn Adam and Eve about the tree of knowledge? (humor me here, ok?)

 

1) Because he's an asshole.

2) Because god doesn't exist, therefore he cannot warn anyone of anything.

 

Choose one - they're both free!

[Huntsvil]

So I'm a couple of miles ahead of you mister. Pick up the pace, and try to catch up!

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Are you so sure that God is as you say? Or could He be alot like us. Didnt He say lets make man in our image? A reflection of who He and they were. Like men in general, we struggle with the idea we are not sensitive enough because the women think we should be. But in the Bible God said "the Lord is a warrior and the Lord is His name". Be careful, I say, and He said, lest you think you are smarter than you are. Of course I am paraphrasing what I remember as I am not able to recall the exact passage. Lest I leave out the women let me say I believe God's Jesus was a view to God's caring side.

[Skankboy]

Are you so sure that God is as you say?

 

No, I don't believe in god at all.

 

However, I do believe that there are certain, basic, fundament assumptions about the powers/attributes of god that are both biblical and/or traditional in christian mythology (ie the omni - attributes). If the biblical god was anything less, it wouldn't be the "alpha and omega" etc.

 

I'm beginning to sound like a broken record here but here goes...

 

Why is it that we ex-christians seem to hold God to a higher set of standards than most of the christians that come here?

 

[scotter]

Why is it that we ex-christians seem to hold God to a higher set of standards than most of the christians that come here?

 

Skankboy that is so Zen.

 

I may not know the 'why' for it, but I have some thoughts on 'that's why':

 

- that's why Skankboy you are an ex-Christian

- and that's why they are still Christians

 

- I don't hold standards to God, as I have my thoughts on God.

Ex-Christians and Christians are on higher realm than I am.

 

Another Zen for you, it came up from a chat with a Catholic priest:

 

"Why are Westerners leaving Christianity for Buddhism?"

 

"It is human nature to ask questions; it is also nature of certain churches, not to answer questions."

[NimbusBirdMgp]

I thought you where making this correlation(?)  You're still using the Bible to say there is a God.  I think(?)  What does that 2 Thes. in your signiture say?  I through away the Bibles I had.  I have no reference.

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I'm still waiting for an answer to this question. What does that 2 Thess. say and suppose to mean?

 

I'm getting some ideas going in me, that I will only Blog them if I ever can.

[Totallyatpeace]

Here you go, NBM~

 

I'll explain if you want me to.

 

Tap

 

 

II Thes 2 :4-11

 

4 He will oppose and will exalt himself over everything that is called God or is worshiped, so that he sets himself up in God's temple, proclaiming himself to be God.

5 Don't you remember that when I was with you I used to tell you these things?

6 And now you know what is holding him back, so that he may be revealed at the proper time.

7 For the secret power of lawlessness is already at work; but the one who now holds it back will continue to do so till he is taken out of the way.

8 And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will overthrow with the breath of his mouth and destroy by the splendor of his coming.

9 The coming of the lawless one will be in accordance with the work of Satan displayed in all kinds of counterfeit miracles, signs and wonders,

10 and in every sort of evil that deceives those who are perishing. They perish because they refused to love the truth and so be saved.

11 For this reason God sends them a powerful delusion so that they will believe the lie

[Totallyatpeace]

He'll defy and then take over every so-called god or altar. Having cleared away the opposition, he'll then set himself up in God's Temple as "God Almighty." Don't you remember me going over all this in detail when I was with you? Are your memories that short?

 

You'll also remember that I told you the Anarchist is being held back until just the right time. That doesn't mean that the spirit of anarchy is not now at work. It is, secretly and underground. But the time will come when the Anarchist will no longer be held back, but will be let loose. But don't worry. The Master Jesus will be right on his heels and blow him away. The Master appears and--puff!-the Anarchist is out of there.

 

The Anarchist's coming is all Satan's work. All his power and signs and miracles are fake, evil sleight of hand that plays to the gallery of those who hate the truth that could save them. And since they're so obsessed with evil, God rubs their noses in it--gives them what they want.

 

 

(edit by HanSolo, was it the right one TAP?)

[Ouroboros]

Are you so sure that God is as you say? Or could He be alot like us. Didnt He say lets make man in our image? A reflection of who He and they were. Like men in general, we struggle with the idea we are not sensitive enough because the women think we should be. But in the Bible God said "the Lord is a warrior and the Lord is His name". Be careful, I say, and He said, lest you think you are smarter than you are. Of course I am paraphrasing what I remember as I am not able to recall the exact passage. Lest I leave out the women let me say I believe God's Jesus was a view to God's caring side.

Are you one of those Christians that consider God subpotent and inept?

So he's not omnipotent, omniscient or omni-benevolent?

He's something less that this?

[Totallyatpeace]

He'll defy and then take over every so-called god or altar. Having cleared away the opposition, he'll then set himself up in God's Temple as "God Almighty." Don't you remember me going over all this in detail when I was with you? Are your memories that short?....

 

(edit by HanSolo, was it the right one TAP?)

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Yes. Thank you, HanSolo.

 

I sure miss that edit button. but.....I understand.

[white_raven23]

Didnt He say lets make man in our image? A reflection of who He and they were.

 

Only according to a book. When actually the reverse is what ends up being the perceived truth....at least according to those christians who judge and curse people who don't see things their way......they pull the "god agrees with ME" card.

 

Can't prove it though. You can only find the closest bible verse, and warp it to fit the need.

 

Don't appove of mastrubation? Pull out the Onan story! Never mind he was punished by god (according to your book) for not impregnating his brother's widow....jizz is on the ground! That's close enough!! Therefore god hates mastrubation!

 

You can make the bible fit any morality or value you are trying to force others to conform to.

 

And any crime too. There's plenty of pedophiles, rapists, and murderers who found some sort of justification for their actions in the pages of that book.

[NimbusBirdMgp]

He'll defy and then take over every so-called god or altar. Having cleared away the opposition, he'll then set himself up in God's Temple as "God Almighty." Don't you remember me going over all this in detail when I was with you? Are your memories that short?

 

You'll also remember that I told you the Anarchist is being held back until just the right time. That doesn't mean that the spirit of anarchy is not now at work. It is, secretly and underground. But the time will come when the Anarchist will no longer be held back, but will be let loose. But don't worry. The Master Jesus will be right on his heels and blow him away. The Master appears and--puff!-the Anarchist is out of there.

 

The Anarchist's coming is all Satan's work. All his power and signs and miracles are fake, evil sleight of hand that plays to the gallery of those who hate the truth that could save them. And since they're so obsessed with evil, God rubs their noses in it--gives them what they want.

(edit by HanSolo, was it the right one TAP?)

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A part of me has this little bit of compromise about some Deity, if there is one in question. The Bible and Chrisitianity to me is this Anachrist. In others words, I'm a little bit open minded that a Deity is at the other end of all this and man making the Bible and the Christian religion would be all of this Anarchist or else I default to Atheism slightly still. I just can't fathem this life is all by accident. But I do think religion and cults would more likely be the results of Anarchist deceptions upon man for what I've noticed in this world at best. But thanks for the information.