bornagainathiest Posted January 17, 2011 Author Share Posted January 17, 2011 ...and this Paradise which Jesus referred to is the heaven where all Christian spirits are now? A simple Yes or No will do. BAA. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bornagainathiest Posted January 17, 2011 Author Share Posted January 17, 2011 1. You believe that the immediate after-life for all Christians is as disembodied spirits in heaven. 2. This would include everyone from Abel, Noah and Abraham, thru Job, David, Solomon, Samuel and Daniel, including the martyr Stephen and all of the Apostles, plus every other true Christian, right up until this very moment. 3. The thief who was crucified with Jesus, died and went to heaven on that day and is there now. 4. This thief is also a disembodied spirit in heaven, which is the Paradise Jesus was referring to in Luke 23:43. 5. All of the disembodied Christian spirits will receive glorified physical bodies at the appointed time. 6. This will be when God destroys the old heaven and earth and creates the New Heaven and the New Earth, not before. 7. The New Heaven and the New Earth appear after God's judgement, not before. So, my question is simply this... Do you agree with my 7-point description of your beliefs? If not, why not? ...and what harm would it do you to simply answer these two questions? BAA. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bornagainathiest Posted January 17, 2011 Author Share Posted January 17, 2011 There is no elapsed time for him in Sheol/Hades? Care to quote chapter and verse? I've already done so, many times, in this thread. Rather than me do the work of restating them, why don't you go back, read thru them. You offered nothing that corresponded to Scriptural context - I'm giving you a second chance. Plz put forth something plausible from the Bible - in context. Who are you to thunder down from on high that my examples aren't in context? When you make a claim like that, do you expect us all to kowtow to you and instantly agree? Show me how my examples weren't in context and then maybe I'll consider accepting your claim that they aren't. The Holy Bible : English standard version. 2001 (Matthew 25:31–26:1). Wheaton: Standard Bible Society. Do me a favor - point out all the metaphors in this passage. Hungry, thirsty, stranger, naked, sick, King, kingdom, right, left, glory, angels, eternal, fire, devil, punishment, righteous, eternal life? Which ones? No!Getting me to point out all the metaphors in that passage is a twofold ploy of yours and I will not bite. Your aim is to... A. Deflect attention away from the contradiction between 1 Timothy 6:16 and Luke 23:43. B. Present me with an irrelevant task and then, when I refuse to comply, make a big deal about how I'm not answering your questions. This is sheer cowardice. You can't do it and hold you beloved soul-sleep doctrine >> you know you've hung yourself with your own rope, your position holds no water. So you take the high road and accuse me of an 'irrelevant task' - and when did context become irrelevant? Oh, so you know for a fact that I can't do what you want? That's impressive! You can read my mind, know my thoughts and predict my actions? And context never becomes irrelevant. What was irrelevant was the chapter and verse you 'commanded' me to work on. It had nothing at all to do with the subject under discussion. That's why I declined. Present something relevant and I might consider your request. Oh yes, when you want to posit some doctrine that has never been taught or accepted within historic orthodox Christianity. And you also refuse to list any recognized Bible scholar that holds to this false doctrine - again by accusing me, a priori, of mistreating such men/women. Why-o-why is it so ****ing important to you that I adhere to historic orthodox Christianity? You sure as hell don't! The spiritual fruit you've displayed recently is ample proof that I'm doing the right thing by protecting the identity of my former church. The love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness and self-control you (haven't) been showing, speaks for itself. Those people showed me much kindness and even if I'm no longer a Christian, I certainly wouldn't want an arrogant, self-important, blustering, overbearing bully like you forcing his attention on them. Cowardice. We'll see who's the coward, soon enough. So, until you want to address pertinent passages in context, and supply some simple information I've asked for - what the purpose of continuing on? That's right! Just unilaterally declare anything you can't handle as not being in context. Prove your case. There is no contradiction between I Tim 6:16 and Luke 23:43 - unless you conjure one up in your own mind. Hmmmmm... Was Paul referring to those in Heaven - or those on Earth? Paul was referring to humans on Earth. No. This is incorrect. Look at what it says... I charge you in the presence of God, who gives life to all things, and of Christ Jesus,(AD) who in his testimony before[d] Pontius Pilate made(AE) the good confession, 14to keep the commandment unstained and free from reproach until(AF) the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ, 15which he will display(AG) at the proper time—he who is(AH) the blessed and only Sovereign,(AI) the King of kings and Lord of lords, 16(AJ) who alone has immortality,(AK) who dwells in(AL) unapproachable light,(AM) whom no one has ever seen or can see. To him be honor and eternal dominion. Amen. God the Father does not dwell on Earth, where humans live. Those examples from the OT of an unapproachable God do not apply because the temple curtain was torn in two, down from heaven to earth, at the moment of Jesus' death. That is why He is the Way, the Truth and the Life. Nobody comes to the Father, except thru him. And nobody has come to the Father, except Jesus. Read this... John 1:18. No one has ever seen God;(AM) the only God,[d] who is at the Father’s side,[e](AN) he has made him known. See? Jesus has made made Him known to us on Earth, but no one has ever seen the Father in heaven. And this... John 6:46. Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father comes to me— 46(BM) not that anyone has seen the Father except(BN) he who is from God; he(BO) has seen the Father. No one has seen the Father, except he who is of God, he has seen the Father. He. Singular. That's only Jesus, nobody else. The Father dwells in unappraochable light IN HEAVEN where no one IN HEAVEN has seen Him or can see Him. Got that? No one except Jesus, the Son of God and one of the Trinity, has seen God. BAA. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phanta Posted January 18, 2011 Share Posted January 18, 2011 Some further comments/questions for you, Ray, if you have a chance to get to them. A couple quick questions come to mind.... Abraham expected to have a physical body? 2nd question... When Jesus raised the widow's son from the dead, if what you say is correct, wouldn't that mean the son was already somewhere else...an afterlife, in another body? Thanks for considering my questions. Phanta God's revelation in Scripture is progressive - so as time goes on the revelation grows and becomes more specific. Yes, I think that Abraham expected to have a physical body in the after-life. Now, as we look at what God has further revealed >> the immediate after-life is as a disembodied spirit, since death is the separation of our soul from our body. 26 For as the body apart from the spirit is dead, so also faith apart from works is dead. The Holy Bible : English standard version. 2001 (James 2:26). Wheaton: Standard Bible Society. Then, after God destroys this sin-polluted universe and creates a New Heavens and a New Earth, we will receive glorified bodies. I Corinthians 15. Ok, straight off I'm wondering at this... The sentence implies that "this sin-polluted universe", which is replaced by "New Heavens and a New Earth", included an "Old Heaven and an Old Earth". Is that "Heaven" in the "universe" meaning everything outside of Earth's atmosphere? Or is it referring to the spiritual realm? And if it is referring to the spiritual realm, how did it get polluted? Why do we need New Heavens? What is wrong with the old ones? If it means just the physical universe outside of Earth's atmosphere, I have no questions. But I will address the other persons you asked about - but certainly David anticipated a physical, conscious after-life 9 Therefore my heart is glad, and my whole being rejoices; my flesh also dwells secure. 10 For you will not abandon my soul to Sheol, or let your holy one see corruption. 11 You make known to me the path of life; in your presence there is fullness of joy; at your right hand are pleasures forevermore. The Holy Bible : English standard version. 2001 (Psalm 16:9–11). Wheaton: Standard Bible Society. I also need to study this more, and I'll get back to you next week - but I would say the young man raised from the dead was a spirit in the current heaven, whom Jesus returned to his earthly body. One day - after the conclusion of this age, he will receive a physical body. Thanks! Paul personally prefers physical death to this worldly life in the flesh. So he can sleep? And he regards this as far better? Really? 'Cuz he says he will be at home with the Lord. Are you saying Paul will be home sleeping? I think what BAA is saying (and it is making some sense to me within the context of the belief system) is that Paul will be unconscious during the soul-sleep and so, to him, he will feel like he is immediately with the Lord after death. But at this moment in time, as you and I and BAA are discussing this topic, Paul is asleep and unconscious of it, pending end-time resurrection. Some Will Depart from the Faith4 Now the Spirit expressly says that in later times some will depart from the faith by devoting themselves to deceitful spirits and teachings of demons, 2 through the insincerity of liars whose consciences are seared, 3 who forbid marriage and require abstinence from foods that God created to be received with thanksgiving by those who believe and know the truth. 4 For everything created by God is good, and nothing is to be rejected if it is received with thanksgiving, 5 for it is made holy by the word of God and prayer. The Holy Bible : English standard version. 2001 (1 Tim 4:1–5). Wheaton: Standard Bible Society. Wow, is this an anti-vegetarian thing? Anti-Hindu (cow worship)? Is this negating all of the food rules in the OT, i.e. shellfish? Unclean animals? Let No One Disqualify You 16 Therefore let no one pass judgment on you in questions of food and drink, or with regard to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath. 17 These are a shadow of the things to come, but the substance belongs to Christ. 18 Let no one disqualify you, insisting on asceticism and worship of angels, going on in detail about visions, puffed up without reason by his sensuous mind, 19 and not holding fast to the Head, from whom the whole body, nourished and knit together through its joints and ligaments, grows with a growth that is from God. 20 If with Christ you died to the elemental spirits of the world, why, as if you were still alive in the world, do you submit to regulations— 21 “Do not handle, Do not taste, Do not touch” 22 (referring to things that all perish as they are used)—according to human precepts and teachings? 23 These have indeed an appearance of wisdom in promoting self-made religion and asceticism and severity to the body, but they are of no value in stopping the indulgence of the flesh. The Holy Bible : English standard version. 2001 (Colossians 2:16–23). Wheaton: Standard Bible Society. Again I ask, is this meant to be anti-pagan food rites, or is it negating the OT food restrictions? So my response to this whole soul-sleep gig is to quote Jesus' response to the Sadducees; 29 But Jesus answered them, “You are wrong, because you know neither the Scriptures nor the power of God. 30 For in the resurrection they neither marry nor are given in marriage, but are like angels in heaven. 31 And as for the resurrection of the dead, have you not read what was said to you by God: 32 ‘I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob’? He is not God of the dead, but of the living.” The Holy Bible : English standard version. 2001 (Matthew 22:29–32). Wheaton: Standard Bible Society. So, we see BAA is contradicting Jesus the Messiah, the Son of God. This doesn't seem to say anything about people dying and immediately entering Heaven. It says there are angels in heaven... Oh! Are angels dead Christians? If so, then I see your point. Or do you mean to point to the "He is not God of the dead, but of the living."? So, is Jesus saying there will be no resurrection??? What does he mean by "living"? Phanta Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phanta Posted January 18, 2011 Share Posted January 18, 2011 There is no elapsed time for him in Sheol/Hades? Care to quote chapter and verse? I've already done so, many times, in this thread. Rather than me do the work of restating them, why don't you go back, read thru them. You offered nothing that corresponded to Scriptural context - I'm giving you a second chance. Plz put forth something plausible from the Bible - in context. Who are you to thunder down from on high that my examples aren't in context? When you make a claim like that, do you expect us all to kowtow to you and instantly agree? Show me how my examples weren't in context and then maybe I'll consider accepting your claim that they aren't. The Holy Bible : English standard version. 2001 (Matthew 25:31–26:1). Wheaton: Standard Bible Society. Do me a favor - point out all the metaphors in this passage. Hungry, thirsty, stranger, naked, sick, King, kingdom, right, left, glory, angels, eternal, fire, devil, punishment, righteous, eternal life? Which ones? No!Getting me to point out all the metaphors in that passage is a twofold ploy of yours and I will not bite. Your aim is to... A. Deflect attention away from the contradiction between 1 Timothy 6:16 and Luke 23:43. B. Present me with an irrelevant task and then, when I refuse to comply, make a big deal about how I'm not answering your questions. This is sheer cowardice. You can't do it and hold you beloved soul-sleep doctrine >> you know you've hung yourself with your own rope, your position holds no water. So you take the high road and accuse me of an 'irrelevant task' - and when did context become irrelevant? Oh, so you know for a fact that I can't do what you want? That's impressive! You can read my mind, know my thoughts and predict my actions? And context never becomes irrelevant. What was irrelevant was the chapter and verse you 'commanded' me to work on. It had nothing at all to do with the subject under discussion. That's why I declined. Present something relevant and I might consider your request. Oh yes, when you want to posit some doctrine that has never been taught or accepted within historic orthodox Christianity. And you also refuse to list any recognized Bible scholar that holds to this false doctrine - again by accusing me, a priori, of mistreating such men/women. Why-o-why is it so ****ing important to you that I adhere to historic orthodox Christianity? You sure as hell don't! The spiritual fruit you've displayed recently is ample proof that I'm doing the right thing by protecting the identity of my former church. The love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness and self-control you (haven't) been showing, speaks for itself. Those people showed me much kindness and even if I'm no longer a Christian, I certainly wouldn't want an arrogant, self-important, blustering, overbearing bully like you forcing his attention on them. Cowardice. We'll see who's the coward, soon enough. So, until you want to address pertinent passages in context, and supply some simple information I've asked for - what the purpose of continuing on? That's right! Just unilaterally declare anything you can't handle as not being in context. Prove your case. There is no contradiction between I Tim 6:16 and Luke 23:43 - unless you conjure one up in your own mind. Hmmmmm... Was Paul referring to those in Heaven - or those on Earth? Paul was referring to humans on Earth. No. This is incorrect. Look at what it says... I charge you in the presence of God, who gives life to all things, and of Christ Jesus,(AD) who in his testimony before[d] Pontius Pilate made(AE) the good confession, 14to keep the commandment unstained and free from reproach until(AF) the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ, 15which he will display(AG) at the proper time—he who is(AH) the blessed and only Sovereign,(AI) the King of kings and Lord of lords, 16(AJ) who alone has immortality,(AK) who dwells in(AL) unapproachable light,(AM) whom no one has ever seen or can see. To him be honor and eternal dominion. Amen. God the Father does not dwell on Earth, where humans live. Those examples from the OT of an unapproachable God do not apply because the temple curtain was torn in two, down from heaven to earth, at the moment of Jesus' death. That is why He is the Way, the Truth and the Life. Nobody comes to the Father, except thru him. And nobody has come to the Father, except Jesus. Read this... John 1:18. No one has ever seen God;(AM) the only God,[d] who is at the Father’s side,[e](AN) he has made him known. See? Jesus has made made Him known to us on Earth, but no one has ever seen the Father in heaven. And this... John 6:46. Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father comes to me— 46(BM) not that anyone has seen the Father except(BN) he who is from God; he(BO) has seen the Father. No one has seen the Father, except he who is of God, he has seen the Father. He. Singular. That's only Jesus, nobody else. The Father dwells in unappraochable light IN HEAVEN where no one IN HEAVEN has seen Him or can see Him. Got that? No one except Jesus, the Son of God and one of the Trinity, has seen God. BAA. To quote a friend of mine, Why is the Bible always so fucking obtuse? - Phanta Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phanta Posted January 18, 2011 Share Posted January 18, 2011 Ray, here is more scripture that seems to support the soul-sleep idea: John 5:25-29 (English Standard Version) 25"Truly, truly, I say to you,(A) an hour is coming, and is now here, when( the dead will hear© the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear will live. 26(D) For as the Father has life in himself,(E) so he has granted the Son also to have life in himself. 27And he(F) has given him authority to execute judgment, because he is the Son of Man. 28Do not marvel at this, for(G) an hour is coming when(H) all who are in the tombs will hear his voice 29and come out,(I) those who have done good to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil to the resurrection of judgment. The dead in the tombs will hear his voice and come out? If the persona was in heaven, they would already be hearing Jesus plenty. It makes a lot more sense that the body and soul are asleep in "Shoel" until Judgement Day, when they hear Jesus' voice and receive their second earth paradise in their new and improved bodies. Matthew 27:52-5352 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose, 53 And came out of the graves after His resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many. Does it really make sense that these people's spirits were sucked out of heaven and back into their bodies??? Or is this meaning that they were zombies -- bodies devoid of souls -- wandering about? Daniel 12: 2 (English Standard Version) 2And many of those who(D) sleep in(E) the dust of the earth shall(F) awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt. You'll see, Ray, when you die and are sucked into a shiny new body straight off without any intermediary soul separation, boy, will you be surprised! Phanta Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest I Love Dog Posted January 19, 2011 Share Posted January 19, 2011 Matthew 27:52-53 52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose, 53 And came out of the graves after His resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many. Does it really make sense that these people's spirits were sucked out of heaven and back into their bodies??? Or is this meaning that they were zombies -- bodies devoid of souls -- wandering about? Oh my doG! There are more than 10,000 saints! Does this mean that when Jesus returns all those Zombie Saints are going to rise up out of their graves and wander around, devoid of souls, getting hit by cars and causing accidents and scaring little kids? I'm glad we've only got one saint in Australia! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bornagainathiest Posted January 22, 2011 Author Share Posted January 22, 2011 Posted 17 January 2011 - 03:00 PM bornagainathiest, on 16 January 2011 - 10:00 AM, said: Paul writes that he wants to depart and be with Christ. If he means on the day he dies, then he must share Ray's position - that the saved join Christ immediately when they die. But, elsewhere Paul also writes the God, 'dwells in unapproachable light, whom no one has ever seen or can see.' Hmmmmm... Was Paul referring to those in Heaven - or those on Earth? Paul was referring to humans on Earth. Note the context of I Timothy; stated right at the start and re-iterated throughout the letter >> the dangers of false teachers! Uhh....no, Ray. Paul was not referring to humans on Earth. As you say so yourself, the context of 1 Timothy; stated right at the start and re-iterated throughout the letter >> the dangers of false teachers! In that context, where does Paul write anything at all to Timothy about humans on Earth seeing not being able to see God because of the unapproachable light he dwells in... on Earth!!??? Please show us all where! Looking at the context again, who is writing to who and when? Paul and Timothy were not living in Old Testament times, where God had to stay hidden by smoke or fire or by a temple curtain, lest the sight of Him destroy onlookers. Such measures were finished with many years before Paul sat down to write this letter. God incarnated Himself in human flesh as Jesus Christ and live among men. He died on the cross, rose from death and ascended into heaven, years before Saul met Him on the road to Damascus and became Paul. Both Paul and Timothy were born-again Christians under Christ's New Covenant. Rhetorical question, now Ray. you'll know the answer to this, even if you'll never acknowledge it. How often does Paul write in his letters that a return to the regulations and rituals of the Old Covenant is not the way to know and worship Jesus, the Son of God? Therefore, how can any of the instances in the OT, where God has to remain separated and hidden from His worshippers be relevant here? The simple answer is, they aren't relevant. You've simply invoked them as a way of dodging the clear and direct contradiction between the plain meaning of 1 Tim 6:16 and your take on Luke 23:34. Paul was not, in any way, referring to humans on Earth not being able to see God because He dwelt here in unapproachable light. Here it is again... 1 Timothy 6:13-16, ESV. I charge you in the presence of God, who gives life to all things, and of Christ Jesus,(AD) who in his testimony before[d] Pontius Pilate made(AE) the good confession, 14to keep the commandment unstained and free from reproach until(AF) the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ, 15which he will display(AG) at the proper time—he who is(AH) the blessed and only Sovereign,(AI) the King of kings and Lord of lords, 16(AJ) who alone has immortality,(AK) who dwells in(AL) unapproachable light,(AM) whom no one has ever seen or can see. The blessed and only Sovereign, the King of kings and Lord of Lords, who alone has immortality dwells in unapproachable light... where? On Earth or in heaven? Let's go thru the possibilities and eliminate them, one by one, leaving us with the only possible answer. 1. Jesus had ascended into heaven, years before Paul wrote this letter to Timothy. So God was not present on Earth in His physical form and therefore Paul cannot be referring to the risen Jesus. 2. The day of Pentecost, when the Holy Spirit was sent to dwell within each Christian believer, happened years before Saul became Paul, so that aspect of the Trinity cannot be the one Paul is referring to. 3. As mentioned earlier, this was the time of the New Covenant, so any Old Covenant methods of concealing or hiding God's glory no longer applied. So, Paul cannot be talking about God the Father appearing in this way. 4. Jesus had not (and still hasn't) returned. So it still isn't the proper time Paul was referring to. Therefore he cannot be talking about the glorified, risen Christ as He will be seen in the future. So then, having covered all three persons of the Triune God and His future appearance on the Last Day and discounted all of them, for good reasons, we have to ask ourselves, what could Paul possibly mean by, 'dwelling in unapproachable light, whom no one has ever seen or can see'? Dwelling - present tense. Seen - past tense. See - present tense. Paul is writing about things that were current to him and Timothy. The only sensible and reasonable conclusion is that Paul was writing about God, in His dwelling place in heaven. Not on Earth and nowhere else - heaven. To say otherwise is to obdurately deny the proper meaning of scripture, in favor of something else. Now, according to you, even the earliest believers, like Abel and Noah have been going up to heaven when they died, followed by all believers over the millennia. So, you say that heaven is populated by millions of the ghostly spirits of Christians, who are in the presence of God. How do you reconcile that belief with the words of Paul and John and Peter in the NT, who say that only Jesus has returned to and seen the Father? Please resolve this contradiction for us. Thanks, BAA. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bornagainathiest Posted January 23, 2011 Author Share Posted January 23, 2011 Also, let's not forget what Peter said. That King David did not enter heaven - and this was hundreds of years after David died. But according to Ray, David should have gone there on the day of his death. Again, allow me to re-iterate; Peter stated that David did not physically rise from the dead. Since David died, his soul separated from his body, and David's current existence is similar to that of angels - until that point in the future when we receive our heavenly, glorified bodies. So my response to this whole soul-sleep gig is to quote Jesus' response to the Sadducees; 29 But Jesus answered them, “You are wrong, because you know neither the Scriptures nor the power of God. 30 For in the resurrection they neither marry nor are given in marriage, but are like angels in heaven. 31 And as for the resurrection of the dead, have you not read what was said to you by God: 32 ‘I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob’? He is not God of the dead, but of the living.” The Holy Bible : English standard version. 2001 (Matthew 22:29–32). Wheaton: Standard Bible Society. So, we see BAA is contradicting Jesus the Messiah, the Son of God. Again..... No, Ray. This is not correct. The Apostle Peter was referring to the full physical resurrection of King David at the end of days, with his animating soul clothed in new and glorified flesh on that day - not before. To say otherwise is to completely undermine the whole of the Jewish understanding about the body and soul. To the Jews, a person is not a person unless their soul is united with their body. Once their soul leaves their body when they die, this person ceases to be a person - they are dead. Though their soul may reside in Sheol/Hades, this soul is not the full and proper person any more than their dead body is that person. They do not become a person again until their soul is reunited with their body - either the old body, as in the case of the six resurectees I've mentioned in this thread, or a new and glorified body, such as they will receive on Judgement Day. Look closely what Peter says... "For in the resurrection they [the risen believers in Christ] neither marry nor are given in marriage, but are like angels in heaven" Note that? In the resurrection - not before. This resurrection is of the bodies of the dead, just like that of Jesus, the first to physically rise from the dead and show how ALL Christian's will rise on the last day. Or are you saying, Ray, that Jesus did not rise from the dead in the flesh? Careful now... What you seem to be advocating is a kind of dualistic 'spirit' resurrection, where a Christian's body remains in the grave and their invisible, ghostly spirit beams up to heaven. That's heresy, brother! You are the one denying the true and proper, full physical resurrection of the dead here. You've split Jesus' physical resurrection off from that of his believers, who (according to you) have to wait in heaven for their physical resurrection. Peter also says... "...They are like angels in heaven." Yes, they will be... once Judgement Day comes. Don't make the error of thinking that angels are somehow invisible ghoists in heaven! They aren't. There's no need for them to be so, in God's direct presence. Yes, they can move and exist invisibly on Earth, but that's not what Peter is talking about here. Once again, you are taking Earthly examples from scripture and projecting their validity into heaven. Wrong to do so! Peter carries on... "He is not the God of the dead, but of the living." Yes, it looks like Jesus is saying that Abraham, Isaac and Jacob are alive and well (and therefore, since the died, living in heaven) doesn't it? But that cannot be so. It directly contradicts what Paul and John clearly say about only Jesus returning to the Father after His physical resurrection. Only Jesus entering heaven and no one else - not Abraham, not Isaac, not Jacob, nor King David or anyone else. They key to understanding what Peter means here is to realize that nothing and nobody is dead to God. These are the two key words - 'to God'. From the human perspective the dead are gone and 'unperceived'. But no place in all of creation is hidden from God's sight and knowledge. Sheol/Hades is closed to the sight and knowledge of humans, but fully open and full known by God. No one and nobody in Sheol, from Abel thru to the present day dead, is unknown and unperceived by God. He knows all and sees all. Nothing is hidden from Him as many things are hidden, unknown and mysterious to us. There are psalms and OT passages that actually say this, which I have no time to quote now, but can do if called upon. So, once again Ray tries to paint me as the one denying the resurrection. Therefore, I will say it again, to make sure that everyone reading this understands. The doctrine of soul-sleep does not deny the doctrine of the physical resurrection - it simply postpones it until the right and proper time. The time appointed by God to raise His children in the same manner that Jesus was raised - physically, in glorified flesh. Ray's doctrine of separation of the soul and the body (one remaining on Earth and the other going up to heaven as a ghost) is a dualistic and un-biblical Heresy. Ray is more in line with the Sadduccees than I am. They denied the physical resurrection of the dead. I don't. He is saying that the Christian dead will not follow the path opened up for them By Jesus and rise from death in their new, glorified bodies. They do something different from Christ. Somehow, Christians and Christ diverge and follow different paths!! Why? He is saying that the Christian dead leave their bodies as ghostly spirits and enter heaven - in contradiction to the Apostles Paul, John and Peter. He is saying that a person is still a person, when they are these ghosts in heaven, even though he's quoted and written this... These are obviously phenomena which David did not experience, because after his death David's soul separated from his body and is now at home with the Lord. 26 For as the body apart from the spirit is dead, so also faith apart from works is dead. The Holy Bible : English standard version. 2001 (James 2:26). Wheaton: Standard Bible Society. ...which confirms my argument and which agrees with the Judaic belief that a person is not a person UNLESS their souls and bodies are united. The proper time for this re-unification is at the end of days, not before. It's quite simple Ray. While we live our earthly lives, our souls and bodies are one, united to make us living beings. When we die, our souls are divided from our bodies and we are no longer living beings nor persons. The only one who can still see and know us in this state is God. When we are resurrected in the our new bodies (like Jesus was) , we will once again become living beings. There is no third state of being. There is no intermediate existence as insubstantial ghosts in heaven. That is not scriptural. That is un-Biblical and heretical. We are, then we are not, then we are again. BAA. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bornagainathiest Posted January 28, 2011 Author Share Posted January 28, 2011 As promised... Abraham! ------------------------------------------------------------------ Rayskidude replied to Phanta on Jan 7, at 11:13 a.m., saying... Now, Abraham. He doesn't really speak of what he expected after death, so we work through strong implications. 8 Abraham breathed his last and died in a good old age, an old man and full of years, and was gathered to his people The Holy Bible : English standard version. 2001 (Genesis 25:8). Wheaton: Standard Bible Society. Gathered to his people indicates that he thought 'his people' still existed; so there was a belief in life after death. This same principle was spoken to Moses by God Himself. 6 And he said, “I am the God of your father, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.” And Moses hid his face, for he was afraid to look at God. The Holy Bible : English standard version. 2001 (Exodus 3:5–6). Wheaton: Standard Bible Society. We know that Jesus pointed to this Scripture to teach the Sadducees that the resurrection of the dead is true, a reality (see Matthew 22:29-32). So, according to Jesus, in some sense, at the time of Moses - Abraham, Isaac and Jacob had already experienced a resurrection. Being that Abraham believed God and God counted it to him as righteousness (Gen 15:6) also indicates that Abraham expected to be in God's presence after he died. Ok, Abraham himself doesn't say much about what he expected to happen to him after he died, but elsewhere in scripture, his expectations are clearly and succinctly explained. Didn't Ray know about this passage, in the Book of Hebrews? Hebrews 11: 8-16. ESV. 8By faith(M) Abraham obeyed when he was called to go out to a place(N) that he was to receive as an inheritance. And he went out, not knowing where he was going. 9By faith he went to live in(O) the land of promise, as in a foreign land,(P) living in tents(Q) with Isaac and Jacob, heirs with him of the same promise. 10For he was looking forward to® the city that has(S) foundations,(T) whose designer and builder is God. 11By faith(U) Sarah herself received power to conceive, even when she was past the age, since she considered(V) him faithful who had promised. 12Therefore from one man, and(W) him as good as dead, were born descendants(X) as many as the stars of heaven and as many as the innumerable grains of sand by the seashore. 13These all died in faith,(Y) not having received the things promised, but(Z) having seen them and greeted them from afar, and(AA) having acknowledged that they were(AB) strangers and exiles on the earth. 14For people who speak thus make it clear that they are seeking a homeland. 15If they had been thinking of that land from which they had gone out,(AC) they would have had opportunity to return. 16But as it is, they desire a better country, that is, a heavenly one. Therefore God is not ashamed(AD) to be called their God, for(AE) he has prepared for them a city. So the writer of Hebrews is quite certain - Abraham was looking forward to a city with foundations, whose designer and builder is God. He died in faith, not having received the things promised. What were these promised things? Firstly, God promised him descendants as numerous as the stars in heaven. Did Abraham receive this promise while he lived? No. In all Abraham had eight children. Isaac, by Sarah. Ishmael, by Hagar. Zimran, Jokshan, Medan, Midian, Ishbak and Shuah by Keturah. Abraham died in faith, not having received the fullness of God's promise to give him many, many descendants. Ray is correct, when he says that Abraham believed that he would be 'gathered to his people' when he died, but the conclusions he then draws from this are all wrong and un-scriptural. Who were the people that Abraham was to be gathered to when he died? Let's go thru the possibilities and eliminate everything except the only viable answer. 1. Scripture is clear that Abraham did not receive the things promised him, while he lived. So, the numerous descendants promised to him did not exist at that time, neither on Earth, nor in heaven. Therefore, these cannot be the 'people' Abraham expected to be gathered to at the moment of his death. 2. God made His promise with Abraham, not his father Terah or anyone else, so none of Abraham's dead ancestors can be legitimately counted as 'his people' in the context of this promise. Also, for any of them to enter heaven they would have had to have been Born-Again Christians, prior to God establishing covenant with Abraham. There is no scriptural evidence to support this notion. He was not expecting to be gathered to his Born-Again Christian predecessors in heaven - they didn't exist and so this is a scriptural impossibility. 3. This page... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sheol ...describes the beliefs that Abraham et al, would have held to. I reproduce the relevant paragraph which tells us how Abraham expected to be gathered to his people (family, clan and tribe) in Sheol. "As regards the origin not of the term but of the concept, the Jewish Encyclopedia considers more probable the view that it originated in animistic conceits: "With the body in the grave remains connected the soul (as in dreams): the dead buried in family graves continue to have communion (comp. Jer. xxxi. 15). Sheol is practically a family grave on a large scale. Graves were protected by gates and bolts; therefore Sheol was likewise similarly guarded. The separate compartments are devised for the separate clans, sects, and families, national and blood distinctions continuing in effect after death. That Sheol is described as subterranean is but an application of the custom of hewing out of the rocks passages, leading downward, for burial purposes." Yes, Abraham expect to be gathered to his people in Sheol. That is the correct understanding here and the proper conclusion of what that phrase means. Although this adequately describes what Abraham meant by being, 'gathered to his people', his understanding of Sheol does not contradict or clash with the Hebrews passage above nor the basic Christian message of physical resurrection on Judgement Day. For Abraham, Sheol was simply the place of waiting where his soul would sleep until the time that God would make good on His promises. Abraham will wait until the city God has prepared is ready - not before. This happens here... Revelation 21 The New Heaven and the New Earth 1Then I saw(A) a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and the sea was no more. 2And I saw© the holy city,(D) new Jerusalem,(E) coming down out of heaven from God,(F) prepared(G) as a bride adorned for her husband. 3And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, "Behold,(H) the dwelling place[a] of God is with man. He will(I) dwell with them, and they will be his people, and God himself will be with them as their God.[c] 4(J) He will wipe away every tear from their eyes, and(K) death shall be no more,(L) neither shall there be mourning, nor crying, nor pain anymore, for the former things have passed away." To explain what I mean by soul-sleep in Sheol, I now have to state the following, so there can be no misunderstanding, errors or deliberate misquotes by Rayskidude. Sheol is not the end and so is not an Atheistic paradigm. Nor is Sheol the Paradise referred to by Jesus in Luke 23:43. Nor is it any kind of Limbo or anything else than what I describe here. Sheol, when understood correctly, refers to the spiritual place where the souls of the dead go to sleep after death, waiting for the appointed time, when the dead are raised and clothed in new physical bodies of immortal flesh. As it says in James 2: 26, "For as the body apart from the spirit is dead, so faith apart from works is dead." A body, separated from it's spirit/soul is dead. The separation of body from soul renders the individual dead. Dead, but not unknown to God, who sees all and knows all. Psalm 139 sums it up... 7(I) Where shall I go from your Spirit? Or where(J) shall I flee from your presence? 8(K) If I ascend to heaven, you are there! (L) If I make my bed in Sheol, you are there! The Hebrew word, Sheol means 'unseen' and the New Testament equivalent, Hades means 'unperceived'. The dead are unseen and unperceived by us, but fully known and alive to God, who has full and total power over Sheol/Hades and death. A persons soul goes to Sheol to sleep thru the ages, unaware of anything. They do not become a person again until their soul is clothed in a new body on the Last Day. Nowhere in scripture is there anything that declares, describes or even suggests that a Christian's ghostly, invisible spirit enters heaven at the moment of death. Those passages that have been asserted to do so, have been misread, with the full, physical resurrection at the End being mistaken for some kind of irrelevant, intermediate resurrection that has been going on since the Book of Genesis. An example of this skewed understanding is to read this... 29 But Jesus answered them, “You are wrong, because you know neither the Scriptures nor the power of God. 30 For in the resurrection they neither marry nor are given in marriage, but are like angels in heaven. 31 And as for the resurrection of the dead, have you not read what was said to you by God: 32 ‘I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob’? He is not God of the dead, but of the living.” The Holy Bible : English standard version. 2001 (Matthew 22:29–32). Wheaton: Standard Bible Society. ...and conclude that Abraham, Isaac and Jacob are in heaven at this moment, having gone there (as transparent phantoms) when they died. If they entered heaven, what about the words of John and Paul, who say that only the physically resurrected and ascended Jesus entered heaven? These two passages cannot both be true. Either these Patriarchs entered heaven and the Apostles are wrong and the Bible contradicts itself or they didn't and Jesus, the Son of God was wrong and the Bible still contradicts itself. This Gordian knot can be resolved. The way to do so is to embrace the concept of soul-sleep. Then, Paul and John are right and only Jesus has entered heaven. Then, Abraham and Isaac and Jacob have not entered heaven, but, even though they sleep in Sheol, they are alive to God. Scripture confirms this, here... Romans 6:1-11. Dead to Sin, Alive to God 1What shall we say then?(A) Are we to continue in sin that grace may abound? 2By no means! How can we who died to sin still live in it? 3Do you not know that all of us© who have been baptized(D) into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? 4We were(E) buried therefore with him by baptism into death, in order that, just as(F) Christ was raised from the dead by(G) the glory of the Father, we too might walk in(H) newness of life. 5For(I) if we have been united with him in(J) a death like his, we shall certainly be united with him in a resurrection like his. 6We know that(K) our old self[a](L) was crucified with him in order that(M) the body of sin might be brought to nothing, so that we would no longer be enslaved to sin. 7For(N) one who has died(O) has been set free from sin. 8Now(P) if we have died with Christ, we believe that we will also live with him. 9We know that(Q) Christ, being raised from the dead, will never die again;® death no longer has dominion over him. 10For the death he died he died to sin,(S) once for all, but the life he lives he lives to God. 11So you also must consider yourselves(T) dead to sin and alive to God in Christ Jesus. ...and shows the pattern of Christian resurrection - in the flesh, like Christ. There is no other Way. So, Abraham will receive what God has promised him, when he rises from the dead, clothed in his new, glorified and immortal flesh. He will follow the resurrection path and pattern set down by Jesus and enter the New Jerusalem, God's Holy City, when the former things have passed away. Finally, from the lips of Jesus Himself... ...complete vindication of what Abraham will see, when he rises from the dead. John 8:48-59. Before Abraham Was, I Am 48The Jews answered him, "Are we not right in saying that you are a Samaritan and(CF) have a demon?" 49Jesus answered, "I do not have a demon, but(CG) I honor my Father, and you dishonor me. 50Yet(CH) I do not seek my own glory; there is One who seeks it, and he is the judge. 51Truly, truly,(CI) I say to you, if anyone keeps my word, he will never(CJ) see death." 52The Jews said to him, "Now we know that you have a demon!(CK) Abraham died, as did the prophets, yet(CL) you say, 'If anyone keeps my word, he will never(CM) taste death.' 53(CN) Are you greater than our father Abraham, who died? And the prophets died! Who do you make yourself out to be?" 54Jesus answered, (CO) "If I glorify myself, my glory is nothing.(CP) It is my Father who glorifies me,(CQ) of whom you say, 'He is our God.'[c] 55But(CR) you have not known him.(CS) I know him. If I were to say that I do not know him, I would be(CT) a liar(CU) like you, but I do know him and I keep his word. 56(CV) Your father Abraham(CW) rejoiced(CX) that he would see my day.(CY) He saw it and was glad." 57So the Jews said to him, "You are not yet fifty years old, and have you seen Abraham?"[d] 58Jesus said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was,(CZ) I am." 59So(DA) they picked up stones to throw at him, but Jesus hid himself and went out of the temple. Abraham saw (past tense) Jesus' day? Yes. But don't understand this like a human, limited to the here and now. Think like God, who knows the past, the present and the future. Of course He knew and met Abraham! He foreknew him before the creation of all things, He knew him when he lived in ancient times, He knows him now as he sleeps in Sheol and He knows him when the man will rise from the grave and see His (Jesus') day, the Second Coming and Day of Judgement. Thanks, BAA. 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bornagainathiest Posted July 5, 2011 Author Share Posted July 5, 2011 Nothing ever gets lost or forgotten about you Ray. Enjoy! BAA. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rayskidude Posted July 6, 2011 Share Posted July 6, 2011 And he said, “I am the God of your father, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.” And Moses hid his face, for he was afraid to look at God. The Holy Bible : English standard version. 2001 (Exodus 3:5–6). Wheaton: Standard Bible Society. We know that Jesus pointed to this Scripture to teach the Sadducees that the resurrection of the dead is true, a reality (see Matthew 22:29-32). So according to Jesus, at the time of Moses - Abraham, Isaac and Jacob are alive - about 400 years after the Patriarchs. And also Jesus said that believers in heaven are "like angels" >> i.e., spirits. By faith Abraham obeyed when he was called to go out... But as it is, they desire a better country, that is, a heavenly one. Therefore God is not ashamed to be called their God, for he has prepared for them a city.Yes, Abraham expect to be gathered to his people in Sheol. That is the correct understanding here and the proper conclusion of what that phrase means. How in the world do you go from Abraham desiring a better & heavenly country, to Abraham expecting to be gathered to Sheol? In the Easton Bible Dictionary; Sheol = "the all-demanding world" > the Greek word is Hades = "the unknown region" in Harper's Bible Dictionary, Sheol/Hades = netherworld, underworld where departed spirits go (which James Moffat translates as Death). The etymology of the word is unknown. In the New Bible Dictionary >> SHEOL. This word is used in the OT for the place of the dead. The derivation of the Heb. word še’ôl is uncertain. More scholars now hold the view that it is derived from the root š’l meaning ‘ask’ or ‘enquire’. In this case it may have been originally the place of enquiry, where oracles could be obtained. The root š’l is frequently used in the OT of consulting oracles, but the idea is certainly not a leading one in the conception of Sheol. There is a connection of thought with this root in the personification of Sheol as a gaping, craving monster (Is. 5:14; cf. Hab. 2:5, etc.). Delitzsch (Commentary on Is. 5:14) thought that an equivalent Assyr. word had been found in šualu. The meaning of Sheol moves between the ideas of the grave, the underworld and the state of death. Throughout the ancient Near East, as elsewhere, the dead were pictured as existing in a subterranean realm known in Bab. as aralu and in Ugaritic as ’ereṣ, ‘earth’. But whereas these were ruled by their own gods, Yahweh was the ruler of Sheol. Sheol was below the surface of the earth (Ezk. 31:15, 17; Ps. 86:13), a place of dust (Jb. 17:16), darkness (Jb. 10:21), silence (Ps. 94:17) and forgetfulness (Ps. 88:12). Sometimes the distinctions of earthly life are pictured as continuing in Sheol (Is. 14:9; Ezk. 32:27), but always it is a place of weakness and joylessness. In some passages Sheol has a punitive aspect (e.g. Ps. 49:13–14) and premature committal to Sheol is a form of judgment. The OT sees earthly life as the arena for the service of Yahweh; it is there that his word can be received, his sacrifices offered, his interventions experienced. Therefore in a real sense to be in Sheol is to be cut off from his hand (Ps. 88:3-5). However, Yahweh is both present in Sheol (Ps. 139:8) and able to deliver from it (Ps. 16:10). Where does Abraham ever say that he expects to go to this Sheol? BAA says; An example of this skewed understanding is to read this... 29 But Jesus answered them, “You are wrong, because you know neither the Scriptures nor the power of God. 30 For in the resurrection they neither marry nor are given in marriage, but are like angels in heaven. 31 And as for the resurrection of the dead, have you not read what was said to you by God: 32 ‘I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob’? He is not God of the dead, but of the living.” The Holy Bible : English standard version. 2001 (Matthew 22:29–32). Wheaton: Standard Bible Society. ...and conclude that Abraham, Isaac and Jacob are in heaven at this moment, having gone there (as transparent phantoms) when they died. If they entered heaven, what about the words of John and Paul, who say that only the physically resurrected and ascended Jesus entered heaven? These two passages cannot both be true. Either these Patriarchs entered heaven and the Apostles are wrong and the Bible contradicts itself or they didn't and Jesus, the Son of God was wrong and the Bible still contradicts itself. This Gordian knot can be resolved. The way to do so is to embrace the concept of soul-sleep. Then, Paul and John are right and only Jesus has entered heaven. Then, Abraham and Isaac and Jacob have not entered heaven, but, even though they sleep in Sheol, they are alive to God. What a convoluted thought process! Guess what BAA - the Patriarchs, the prophets, the Apostles, etc >> none has received their resurrection/heavenly/glorious/incorruptible bodies yet. They will, as all believers will >> at the First Resurrection in Rev 20. Until then, as Jesus teaches, they are in heaven and they are like angels - can you not read? Their bodies had been polluted and indwelled by sin (see Romans 7:15-21). But Jesus, God Incarnate, has already risen from the dead with his glorified body, and He ascends into heaven as the God-Man. This is who Jesus is; and His body is not infested with sin. He sits enthroned in heaven. The fact that Jesus enters heaven with body & Spirit and men enter only as spirit (as only their spirit was saved and sanctified) is not a contradiction, it is simply treating two different entities in accordance with God's holiness. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rayskidude Posted July 6, 2011 Share Posted July 6, 2011 Some further comments/questions for you, Ray, if you have a chance to get to them. Why do we need New Heavens? What is wrong with the old ones? If it means just the physical universe outside of Earth's atmosphere, I have no questions. Re; The New Heavens- the following verses seem to indicate that the heavens referred to are space - and all God's Creation has been marred by sin, I only know that God will burn up the current heavens and Earth and create new. Romans 8:18–25 (ESV) Future Glory 18 For I consider that the sufferings of this present time are not worth comparing with the glory that is to be revealed to us. 19 For the creation waits with eager longing for the revealing of the sons of God. 20 For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of him who subjected it, in hope 21 that the creation itself will be set free from its bondage to corruption and obtain the freedom of the glory of the children of God. 22 For we know that the whole creation has been groaning together in the pains of childbirth until now. 23 And not only the creation, but we ourselves, who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we wait eagerly for adoption as sons, the redemption of our bodies. 24 For in this hope we were saved. Now hope that is seen is not hope. For who hopes for what he sees? 25 But if we hope for what we do not see, we wait for it with patience. 2 Peter 3:8–13 (ESV) 8 But do not overlook this one fact, beloved, that with the Lord one day is as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. 9 The Lord is not slow to fulfill his promise as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing that any should perish, but that all should reach repentance. 10 But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, and then the heavens will pass away with a roar, and the heavenly bodies will be burned up and dissolved, and the earth and the works that are done on it will be exposed. 11 Since all these things are thus to be dissolved, what sort of people ought you to be in lives of holiness and godliness, 12 waiting for and hastening the coming of the day of God, because of which the heavens will be set on fire and dissolved, and the heavenly bodies will melt as they burn! 13 But according to his promise we are waiting for new heavens and a new earth in which righteousness dwells. Revelation 21:1–8 (ESV) The New Heaven and the New Earth 21 Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and the sea was no more. 2 And I saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. 3 And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, “Behold, the dwelling place of God is with man. He will dwell with them, and they will be his people, and God himself will be with them as their God. 4 He will wipe away every tear from their eyes, and death shall be no more, neither shall there be mourning, nor crying, nor pain anymore, for the former things have passed away.” 5 And he who was seated on the throne said, “Behold, I am making all things new.” Also he said, “Write this down, for these words are trustworthy and true.” 6 And he said to me, “It is done! I am the Alpha and the Omega, the beginning and the end. To the thirsty I will give from the spring of the water of life without payment. 7 The one who conquers will have this heritage, and I will be his God and he will be my son. 8 But as for the cowardly, the faithless, the detestable, as for murderers, the sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars, their portion will be in the lake that burns with fire and sulfur, which is the second death.” I think what BAA is saying (and it is making some sense to me within the context of the belief system) is that Paul will be unconscious during the soul-sleep and so, to him, he will feel like he is immediately with the Lord after death. But at this moment in time, as you and I and BAA are discussing this topic, Paul is asleep and unconscious of it, pending end-time resurrection. Where Jesus & Paul indicate that believers sleep, that is simply a metaphor to indicate the temporary status of our bodies being dead, by being separated from our conscious spirit. John 11:11–15 (ESV) 11 After saying these things, he said to them, “Our friend Lazarus has fallen asleep, but I go to awaken him.” 12 The disciples said to him, “Lord, if he has fallen asleep, he will recover.” 13 Now Jesus had spoken of his death, but they thought that he meant taking rest in sleep. 14 Then Jesus told them plainly, “Lazarus has died, 15 and for your sake I am glad that I was not there, so that you may believe. But let us go to him.” Matthew 9:23–25 (ESV) 23 And when Jesus came to the ruler’s house and saw the flute players and the crowd making a commotion, 24 he said, “Go away, for the girl is not dead but sleeping.” And they laughed at him. 25 But when the crowd had been put outside, he went in and took her by the hand, and the girl arose. Again I ask, is this meant to be anti-pagan food rites, or is it negating the OT food restrictions? This is negating OT food restrictions. Mark 7:14–23 (ESV) What Defiles a Person 14 And he called the people to him again and said to them, “Hear me, all of you, and understand: 15 There is nothing outside a person that by going into him can defile him, but the things that come out of a person are what defile him.” 17 And when he had entered the house and left the people, his disciples asked him about the parable. 18 And he said to them, “Then are you also without understanding? Do you not see that whatever goes into a person from outside cannot defile him, 19 since it enters not his heart but his stomach, and is expelled?” (Thus he declared all foods clean.) 20 And he said, “What comes out of a person is what defiles him. 21 For from within, out of the heart of man, come evil thoughts, sexual immorality, theft, murder, adultery, 22 coveting, wickedness, deceit, sensuality, envy, slander, pride, foolishness. 23 All these evil things come from within, and they defile a person.” Acts 10:9–16 (ESV) Peter’s Vision 9 The next day, as they were on their journey and approaching the city, Peter went up on the housetop about the sixth hour to pray. 10 And he became hungry and wanted something to eat, but while they were preparing it, he fell into a trance 11 and saw the heavens opened and something like a great sheet descending, being let down by its four corners upon the earth. 12 In it were all kinds of animals and reptiles and birds of the air. 13 And there came a voice to him: “Rise, Peter; kill and eat.” 14 But Peter said, “By no means, Lord; for I have never eaten anything that is common or unclean.” 15 And the voice came to him again a second time, “What God has made clean, do not call common.” 16 This happened three times, and the thing was taken up at once to heaven. Romans 14:1–8 (ESV) Do Not Pass Judgment on One Another 14 As for the one who is weak in faith, welcome him, but not to quarrel over opinions. 2 One person believes he may eat anything, while the weak person eats only vegetables. 3 Let not the one who eats despise the one who abstains, and let not the one who abstains pass judgment on the one who eats, for God has welcomed him. 4 Who are you to pass judgment on the servant of another? It is before his own master that he stands or falls. And he will be upheld, for the Lord is able to make him stand. 5 One person esteems one day as better than another, while another esteems all days alike. Each one should be fully convinced in his own mind. 6 The one who observes the day, observes it in honor of the Lord. The one who eats, eats in honor of the Lord, since he gives thanks to God, while the one who abstains, abstains in honor of the Lord and gives thanks to God. 7 For none of us lives to himself, and none of us dies to himself. 8 For if we live, we live to the Lord, and if we die, we die to the Lord. So then, whether we live or whether we die, we are the Lord’s. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bornagainathiest Posted July 6, 2011 Author Share Posted July 6, 2011 And he said, “I am the God of your father, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.” And Moses hid his face, for he was afraid to look at God. The Holy Bible : English standard version. 2001 (Exodus 3:5–6). Wheaton: Standard Bible Society. We know that Jesus pointed to this Scripture to teach the Sadducees that the resurrection of the dead is true, a reality (see Matthew 22:29-32). Yes. Exactly so Ray. The resurrection... singular. One event. Not billions of individual resurrections happening thru history as Christians die and get beamed up as phantoms. As the Koine (NT Greek) will show us clearly. So according to Jesus, at the time of Moses - Abraham, Isaac and Jacob are alive - about 400 years after the Patriarchs. And also Jesus said that believers in heaven are "like angels" >> i.e., spirits. Now why don't we have a look at what the original NT Greek says, huh? http://www.scripture4all.org/OnlineInterlinear/NTpdf/mat22.pdf verse 23. anastasin... "up-standing" verse 24. anastesei... "he-shall-be-up-standing" verse 28. en th oun anastasei... "in-the-then-up-standing" verse 30. en gar th anastasei... "in-for-the-up-standing" verse 31. peri de tes anastaseos... "about-yet-the-up-standing" The word anastasei (up-standing) doesn't refer to a Christian's ascension to heaven as an insubstantial spirit. Please refer to Mark 16:19 in the Scripture4all site and you will see that Jesus' ascension is decribed thus... o men an kurios meta to lalesai autois ANELEPHTHE eis ton ouranon kai ekathisen ek dexion tou theou So then after the Lord had spoken unto them, he was RECEIVED UP into heaven, and sat on the right hand of God. The key word, anelephthe is literally translated as was-gotten-up / was-taken-up Not anastasei, which is the up-standing! Ditto luke 24:51. kai ANAPHERETO eis ton ouranaon ...and CARRIED UP into heaven. The key word, anaphereto is literally translated as he-was-up-carried Again, not anastasei, which is the up-standing! So ascension to heaven is not what up-standing means here. Instead it means the resurrection event, when all flesh will up-standing from their graves. Additionally, anastasei is always treated in the singular sense, never the plural. Your take on it Ray, would change Jesus' words from... "For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God in heaven." to... "For in theIR INDIVIDUAL resurrectionS they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God in heaven." That is not what scripture is saying here. There are not billions of individual up-standingS for each and every Christian. There will be one anastasis (up-standing) for all, when Christ returns. Also, take a close look at Matthew 22:30 again. For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God in heaven. They are as the angels, not with the angels. AS, meaning resembling. AS, meaning similar to. Not meaning, in the same location. There's nothing here to imply that they are in heaven - only that they resemble the angelic beings who are there, that's all. Falling back on, 'He is the God of whoever' (insert the names of dead patriarchs) is no answer either. That does not imply that these OT persons MUST therefore be in His presence. To say that is to directly contradict the Apostles John and Paul, who clearly avow that no one has entered heaven except the resurrected Jesus Christ. I've already made it quite clear that you've got it backwards. Abraham et al are known to God (as are all in Sheol), but He is not known to them - they are not aware of anything. They have 'fallen asleep' in Christ, awaiting the time of the anastasein, the up-standing, as Matthew 22 plainly says. John 6:46. Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father comes to me— 46(BM) not that anyone has seen the Father except(BN) he who is from God; he(BO) has seen the Father. 1 Timothy 6:13-16, ESV. I charge you in the presence of God, who gives life to all things, and of Christ Jesus,(AD) who in his testimony before[d] Pontius Pilate made(AE) the good confession, 14to keep the commandment unstained and free from reproach until(AF) the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ, 15which he will display(AG) at the proper time—he who is(AH) the blessed and only Sovereign,(AI) the King of kings and Lord of lords, 16(AJ) who alone has immortality,(AK) who dwells in(AL) unapproachable light,(AM) whom no one has ever seen or can see. Please note that I've dealt with your OT-based objections to this Ray. This is the New Covenant, not the Old. There's no mileage in qoute-mining anything from the OT about God not being seen here on Earth. John and Paul are talking about Heaven after Jesus' resurrection and ascension. Capiche? So, if you want to continue asserting that Abraham et al are in heaven now as ghosts, try arguing your way around the up-standing! By faith Abraham obeyed when he was called to go out... But as it is, they desire a better country, that is, a heavenly one. Therefore God is not ashamed to be called their God, for he has prepared for them a city.Yes, Abraham expect to be gathered to his people in Sheol. That is the correct understanding here and the proper conclusion of what that phrase means. How in the world do you go from Abraham desiring a better & heavenly country, to Abraham expecting to be gathered to Sheol? (Big snip!) Where does Abraham ever say that he expects to go to this Sheol? He doesn't, but I've covered this too. What Abraham expected was revealed to Paul and is written down in the Book of Hebrews. He expected to join all the other Christians in the New Jerusalem, the city with foundations described in Revelation, not before then. BAA says; An example of this skewed understanding is to read this... 29 But Jesus answered them, “You are wrong, because you know neither the Scriptures nor the power of God. 30 For in the resurrection they neither marry nor are given in marriage, but are like angels in heaven. 31 And as for the resurrection of the dead, have you not read what was said to you by God: 32 ‘I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob’? He is not God of the dead, but of the living.” The Holy Bible : English standard version. 2001 (Matthew 22:29–32). Wheaton: Standard Bible Society. ...and conclude that Abraham, Isaac and Jacob are in heaven at this moment, having gone there (as transparent phantoms) when they died. If they entered heaven, what about the words of John and Paul, who say that only the physically resurrected and ascended Jesus entered heaven? These two passages cannot both be true. Either these Patriarchs entered heaven and the Apostles are wrong and the Bible contradicts itself or they didn't and Jesus, the Son of God was wrong and the Bible still contradicts itself. This Gordian knot can be resolved. The way to do so is to embrace the concept of soul-sleep. Then, Paul and John are right and only Jesus has entered heaven. Then, Abraham and Isaac and Jacob have not entered heaven, but, even though they sleep in Sheol, they are alive to God. What a convoluted thought process! Guess what BAA - the Patriarchs, the prophets, the Apostles, etc >> none has received their resurrection/heavenly/glorious/incorruptible bodies yet. They will, as all believers will >> at the First Resurrection in Rev 20. Until then, as Jesus teaches, they are in heaven and they are like angels - can you not read? Yes, I can read Ray. But more importantly and to the point - can you read the word ANASTASEI in the NT Greek link I provided? It means the singular UP-STANDING event when the dead rise for judgement. It doesn't mean a continuous ascension of Christian ghosts. You are wrong - scripture confirms this. No, Jesus doesn't teach that these patriarchs are in heaven - you draw that implication (wrongly) from the text. Their bodies had been polluted and indwelled by sin (see Romans 7:15-21). Why does that matter? They're not in heaven yet, not in God's pure and holy presence. When the up-standing comes they will be clothed in new, perfect and imperishable bodies - cleansed of sin by Jesus' sacrifice on the cross. But Jesus, God Incarnate, has already risen from the dead with his glorified body, and He ascends into heaven as the God-Man. This is who Jesus is; and His body is not infested with sin. He sits enthroned in heaven. Agreed. The fact that Jesus enters heaven with body & Spirit and men enter only as spirit (as only their spirit was saved and sanctified) is not a contradiction, it is simply treating two different entities in accordance with God's holiness. The up-standing totally refutes this spirit-only salvation heresy. The anastasein happens when Jesus returns, not at the moment of a Christian's death. BAA. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bornagainathiest Posted July 8, 2011 Author Share Posted July 8, 2011 Another point for you to chew on, Ray. http://www.scripture4all.org/OnlineInterlinear/NTpdf/joh11.pdf John 11: 23- 25. verse 23. legei aute ho iesous ANASTESETAI ho adelphos sou is-saying to-her the jesus SHALL-BE-UP-STANDING (SHALL-BE-RISING) the brother of you Jesus saith unto her, thy brother shall rise again verse 24. legei auto martha oida oti ANASTESESTAI en the ANASTESAI en te eschate hemera is-saying to-him martha i-have-perceived that HE-SHALL-BE-UP-STANDING (HE-SHALL-BE-RISING) in the UP-STANDING in the last day Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day verse 25. eipen auto ho iesous ego eimi he ANASTASIS kai he zoe said to her the jesus I am the UP-STANDING and the life Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life Jesus is the resurrection and the life, which is why the dead do not rise (be up-standing) until the Last Day, when He returns. To say that they rise of their own accord is to deny that Jesus and only Jesus is the resurrection. That is heresy. To say that the dead arise thru the power of God the Father or God the Holy spirit is also heresy. Only Jesus has power and authority to release the sleeping dead from Sheol/Hades, as can be seen in Revelation 1:18. The original Greek says it plainly enough Ray. The resurrection (up-standing) of the dead will happen thru and by the power of the returning Jesus Christ, no other. Jesus has not returned yet, so the resurrection of the Last Day has not happened yet. The dead still sleep. BAA. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bornagainathiest Posted July 8, 2011 Author Share Posted July 8, 2011 What a convoluted thought process! Guess what BAA - the Patriarchs, the prophets, the Apostles, etc >> none has received their resurrection/heavenly/glorious/incorruptible bodies yet. They will, as all believers will >> at the First Resurrection in Rev 20. Until then, as Jesus teaches, they are in heaven and they are like angels - can you not read? Their bodies had been polluted and indwelled by sin (see Romans 7:15-21).But Jesus, God Incarnate, has already risen from the dead with his glorified body, and He ascends into heaven as the God-Man. This is who Jesus is; and His body is not infested with sin. He sits enthroned in heaven. The fact that Jesus enters heaven with body & Spirit and men enter only as spirit (as only their spirit was saved and sanctified) is not a contradiction, it is simply treating two different entities in accordance with God's holiness. These highlighted statements deserve special attention. If we accept what Ray says about the patriarch's bodies being polluted by indwelling sin... and ...that only a man's spirit is saved and sanctified, not his body... then what of Enoch and Elijah? Genesis 5: 21 - 24. 21 When Enoch had lived 65 years, he became the father of Methuselah. 22 After he became the father of Methuselah, Enoch walked faithfully with God 300 years and had other sons and daughters. 23 Altogether, Enoch lived a total of 365 years. 24 Enoch walked faithfully with God; then he was no more, because God took him away. Hebrews 11: 5 & 6 5 By faith Enoch was taken from this life, so that he did not experience death: “He could not be found, because God had taken him away.”[a] For before he was taken, he was commended as one who pleased God. 6 And without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who comes to him must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who earnestly seek him. 2 Kings 2: 11 & 12 11 As they were walking along and talking together, suddenly a chariot of fire and horses of fire appeared and separated the two of them, and Elijah went up to heaven in a whirlwind. 12 Elisha saw this and cried out, “My father! My father! The chariots and horsemen of Israel!” And Elisha saw him no more. Then he took hold of his garment and tore it in two. So how did these two men enter heaven in their physical (and sin-polluted) bodies, neither of them having tasted death, but entering God the Father's holy presence alive and in their flesh? We know that Elijah was not destroyed by God's holiness, because he appeared with Jesus and Moses, all three of them shining in radiant glory. We also know that our earthly bodies CAN shine with God's light, because Moses' face glowed when he came down from Mount Sinai. Hmmmm...? BAA. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bornagainathiest Posted July 9, 2011 Author Share Posted July 9, 2011 The lynchpin of Ray's heretical theology is the Matthew quote below. By applying this incorrectly Ray asserts that Abraham et al are alive and in the presence of God in heaven as spirits, like the angels, not as humans with physical bodies. 29 But Jesus answered them, “You are wrong, because you know neither the Scriptures nor the power of God. 30 For in the resurrection they neither marry nor are given in marriage, but are like angels in heaven. 31 And as for the resurrection of the dead, have you not read what was said to you by God: 32 ‘I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob’? He is not God of the dead, but of the living.” The Holy Bible : English standard version. 2001 (Matthew 22:29–32). Wheaton: Standard Bible Society. However, earlier in this debate Ray introduced this quote... 26 For as the body apart from the spirit is dead, so also faith apart from works is dead. The Holy Bible : English standard version. 2001 (James 2:26). Wheaton: Standard Bible Society. Here, he reasons that because the a body separated from it's spirit is dead, so a spirit on it's own must be alive. Wrong! Adam, the first human did not come to life until God breathed his spirit into Adam's empty and dead body. Adam was not alive beforehand, just as a spirit. It took the unification of spirit and body by God to create a living being. This principle has not changed (why should it?) and still applies to everyone. Therefore James 2:26 tells us quite plainly that a person is dead unless their spirit is united with their body. The two parts must be united for that person to be alive. Therefore Abraham and co. cannot be alive as spirits in heaven. Their spirits are asleep in Sheol/Hades until Jesus returns to unite their sleeping spirits with their new and incorruptible bodies. BAA. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rayskidude Posted July 10, 2011 Share Posted July 10, 2011 ...that only a man's spirit is saved and sanctified, not his body... then what of Enoch and Elijah? Lemme get this straight - you wanna make a case from exceptions to the rule? I would also maintain that men do not go to heaven and come back. OOPS - Paul was caught up to heaven. 2 Corinthians 12:1–4 (ESV) Paul’s Visions 12 I must go on boasting. Though there is nothing to be gained by it, I will go on to visions and revelations of the Lord. 2 I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago was caught up to the third heaven—whether in the body or out of the body I do not know, God knows. 3 And I know that this man was caught up into paradise—whether in the body or out of the body I do not know, God knows— 4 and he heard things that cannot be told, which man may not utter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rayskidude Posted July 10, 2011 Share Posted July 10, 2011 The lynchpin of Ray's heretical theology is the Matthew quote below. By applying this incorrectly Ray asserts that Abraham et al are alive and in the presence of God in heaven as spirits, like the angels, not as humans with physical bodies. 29 But Jesus answered them, “You are wrong, because you know neither the Scriptures nor the power of God. 30 For in the resurrection they neither marry nor are given in marriage, but are like angels in heaven. 31 And as for the resurrection of the dead, have you not read what was said to you by God: 32 ‘I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob’? He is not God of the dead, but of the living.” The Holy Bible : English standard version. 2001 (Matthew 22:29–32). Wheaton: Standard Bible Society. However, earlier in this debate Ray introduced this quote... 26 For as the body apart from the spirit is dead, so also faith apart from works is dead. The Holy Bible : English standard version. 2001 (James 2:26). Wheaton: Standard Bible Society. Here, he reasons that because the a body separated from it's spirit is dead, so a spirit on it's own must be alive. Wrong! Adam, the first human did not come to life until God breathed his spirit into Adam's empty and dead body. Adam was not alive beforehand, just as a spirit. It took the unification of spirit and body by God to create a living being. This principle has not changed (why should it?) and still applies to everyone. Therefore James 2:26 tells us quite plainly that a person is dead unless their spirit is united with their body. The two parts must be united for that person to be alive. Therefore Abraham and co. cannot be alive as spirits in heaven. Their spirits are asleep in Sheol/Hades until Jesus returns to unite their sleeping spirits with their new and incorruptible bodies. BAA. Wha??????? The body without the spirit is dead >> as James states so clearly. And I agree, Adam's body was dead until God breathed life into Adam >> so clearly life is contained in the spirit of man, not his body. Genesis 2:6–7 (ESV) 7 then the LORD God formed the man of dust from the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man became a living creature. Zechariah 12:1 (ESV) 12 The burden of the word of the LORD concerning Israel: Thus declares the LORD, who stretched out the heavens and founded the earth and formed the spirit of man within him: So clearly, man's spirit is what makes him alive. Man was created as body & soul - and he will be so for all eternity, but for now - those in heaven are - just as Jesus says "like angels." Or even as Paul clearly states >> 2 Corinthians 5:6–8 (ESV) 6 So we are always of good courage. We know that while we are at home in the body we are away from the Lord, 7 for we walk by faith, not by sight. 8 Yes, we are of good courage, and we would rather be away from the body and at home with the Lord. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rayskidude Posted July 10, 2011 Share Posted July 10, 2011 They are as the angels, not with the angels. AS, meaning resembling. AS, meaning similar to. Not meaning, in the same location. There's nothing here to imply that they are in heaven - only that they resemble the angelic beings who are there, that's all. This is simply dodging what Jesus actually says in this verse. Puh-leeze! Rayskidude asked >>How in the world do you go from Abraham desiring a better & heavenly country, to Abraham expecting to be gathered to Sheol? Where does Abraham ever say that he expects to go to this Sheol? BAA retorts >> He doesn't.. EXACTLY BAA - Abraham never expects to go off to some netherworld soul-sleeping limbo. But BAA continues ... but I've covered this too. What Abraham expected was revealed to Paul and is written down in the Book of Hebrews. He expected to join all the other Christians in the New Jerusalem, the city with foundations described in Revelation, not before then. But Rayskidude asks again - where do you find Abraham saying that he didn't expect to be together with God and his people until what is recorded in John's Revelation? Or is this more conjecture? Because the Bible says; Genesis 25:7–8 (ESV) 7 These are the days of the years of Abraham’s life, 175 years. 8 Abraham breathed his last and died in a good old age, an old man and full of years, and was gathered to his people. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bornagainathiest Posted July 10, 2011 Author Share Posted July 10, 2011 The lynchpin of Ray's heretical theology is the Matthew quote below. By applying this incorrectly Ray asserts that Abraham et al are alive and in the presence of God in heaven as spirits, like the angels, not as humans with physical bodies. 29 But Jesus answered them, “You are wrong, because you know neither the Scriptures nor the power of God. 30 For in the resurrection they neither marry nor are given in marriage, but are like angels in heaven. 31 And as for the resurrection of the dead, have you not read what was said to you by God: 32 ‘I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob’? He is not God of the dead, but of the living.” The Holy Bible : English standard version. 2001 (Matthew 22:29–32). Wheaton: Standard Bible Society. However, earlier in this debate Ray introduced this quote... 26 For as the body apart from the spirit is dead, so also faith apart from works is dead. The Holy Bible : English standard version. 2001 (James 2:26). Wheaton: Standard Bible Society. Here, he reasons that because the a body separated from it's spirit is dead, so a spirit on it's own must be alive. Wrong! Adam, the first human did not come to life until God breathed his spirit into Adam's empty and dead body. Adam was not alive beforehand, just as a spirit. It took the unification of spirit and body by God to create a living being. This principle has not changed (why should it?) and still applies to everyone. Therefore James 2:26 tells us quite plainly that a person is dead unless their spirit is united with their body. The two parts must be united for that person to be alive. Therefore Abraham and co. cannot be alive as spirits in heaven. Their spirits are asleep in Sheol/Hades until Jesus returns to unite their sleeping spirits with their new and incorruptible bodies. BAA. Wha??????? The body without the spirit is dead >> as James states so clearly. And I agree, Adam's body was dead until God breathed life into Adam >> so clearly life is contained in the spirit of man, not his body. No. That is the incorrect assumption you draw from this. The body and the spirit must be united for there to be a living person. God is spirit and the angels are spirits, but man is the unification of body and spirit. Take one from the other and you do not have a human. You have a corpse and a disembodied human spirit. The disembodied human spirit cannot function without the human body it was specifically designed to be united with. Genesis 2:6–7 (ESV) 7 then the LORD God formed the man of dust from the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man became a living creature. Yes, only when the two are together are they A LIVING CREATURE. Zechariah 12:1 (ESV) 12 The burden of the word of the LORD concerning Israel: Thus declares the LORD, who stretched out the heavens and founded the earth and formed the spirit of man within him: WITHIN him, not outside of him nor apart from his body. So clearly, man's spirit is what makes him alive. Man was created as body & soul - and he will be so for all eternity, but for now - those in heaven are - just as Jesus says "like angels." Man's spirit is what makes him alive ONLY when his spirit is WITHIN HIM (read Zechariah!). There is no 'for now'. Or even as Paul clearly states >> 2 Corinthians 5:6–8 (ESV) 6 So we are always of good courage. We know that while we are at home in the body we are away from the Lord, 7 for we walk by faith, not by sight. 8 Yes, we are of good courage, and we would rather be away from the body and at home with the Lord. "at home with the lord" does not mean in the presence of the Father in heaven, for the reasons already given in this debate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bornagainathiest Posted July 10, 2011 Author Share Posted July 10, 2011 They are as the angels, not with the angels. AS, meaning resembling. AS, meaning similar to. Not meaning, in the same location. There's nothing here to imply that they are in heaven - only that they resemble the angelic beings who are there, that's all. This is simply dodging what Jesus actually says in this verse. Puh-leeze! Rayskidude asked >>How in the world do you go from Abraham desiring a better & heavenly country, to Abraham expecting to be gathered to Sheol? Where does Abraham ever say that he expects to go to this Sheol? BAA retorts >> He doesn't.. EXACTLY BAA - Abraham never expects to go off to some netherworld soul-sleeping limbo. But BAA continues ... but I've covered this too. What Abraham expected was revealed to Paul and is written down in the Book of Hebrews. He expected to join all the other Christians in the New Jerusalem, the city with foundations described in Revelation, not before then. But Rayskidude asks again - where do you find Abraham saying that he didn't expect to be together with God and his people until what is recorded in John's Revelation? Or is this more conjecture? Because the Bible says; Genesis 25:7–8 (ESV) 7 These are the days of the years of Abraham’s life, 175 years. 8 Abraham breathed his last and died in a good old age, an old man and full of years, and was gathered to his people. I've covered all of this... ...and you are presenting a strawman argument here Ray. Just because Abraham doesn't specifically say anything about Sheol/Hades, that doesn't automatically mean you're right here. How many times does a scriptural truth about a Bible personage appear in books written by other's centuries or even millennia after they died? Jesus and the apostles write things about the Patriarchs that illuminate the lives and beliefs of these ancient believers, often decribing things that the likes of Noah or Moses or Abraham never specifically mentioned or even hinted at. So, Paul covers what Abraham believed - that he would be together with all the saved in the New Jerusalem, not before. That's what the words, 'only together with us' refer to. Also, I've already covered what is meant by being, 'gathered to his people.' I've already shown that this cannot mean that his people are alive and dwelling in heaven. You are simply vomiting up that same Bible passages again and again, deliberately ignoring what I've already covered. Now it's time for you to do some fresh work, Ray! I notice that you've said diddly-squat about that anastasin, the up-standing of the resurrected dead that happens only at the last day. So get to it! http://www.scripture...NTpdf/joh11.pdf http://www.scripture...NTpdf/mat22.pdf Spirits don't up-stand. Resurrected people who's spirits have been united with their new and perfect bodies DO! Please address the points I've made - pronto! BAA. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bornagainathiest Posted July 10, 2011 Author Share Posted July 10, 2011 ...that only a man's spirit is saved and sanctified, not his body... then what of Enoch and Elijah? Lemme get this straight - you wanna make a case from exceptions to the rule? Hey friend, if the Bible contradicts itself, that's your problem, not mine. Your the Biblical Inerrantist, remember? So, if the OT says that Enoch and Elijah went up to heaven alive, but Paul says that nobody has entered heaven, then he writes that he's entered heaven and then came back down again - what would you call that? A mistake? An error? A mistranslation? A contradiction? Any way you cut this Ray, the Bible's going to end up falling way short of the perfect, flawless inerrancy you claim it has. That suits me just fine. How about you? Happy with that? I would also maintain that men do not go to heaven and come back. OOPS - Paul was caught up to heaven. 2 Corinthians 12:1–4 (ESV) Paul’s Visions 12 I must go on boasting. Though there is nothing to be gained by it, I will go on to visions and revelations of the Lord. 2 I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago was caught up to the third heaven—whether in the body or out of the body I do not know, God knows. 3 And I know that this man was caught up into paradise—whether in the body or out of the body I do not know, God knows— 4 and he heard things that cannot be told, which man may not utter. So do men go up to heaven alive or don't they Ray, make up your mind please! Oh and do hurry up and apply yourself to the remain questions about the up-standing. BAA. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rayskidude Posted August 5, 2011 Share Posted August 5, 2011 ...and you are presenting a strawman argument here Ray. Just because Abraham doesn't specifically say anything about Sheol/Hades, that doesn't automatically mean you're right here. That's it - that's your response to the fact that Abraham never expected to go to Hades - but only a proposal that your twisted theology of death sternly maintains? Yet I have quoted a plethora of Scripture that believers were taught and fully expected to be in God's presence and with their people after physical death. Jesus Himself speaks of Abraham's bosom where the poor man Lazarus. Why do run from the obvious teaching of Scripture? How many times does a scriptural truth about a Bible personage appear in books written by other's centuries or even millennia after they died? Wha???? Is this a serious question? Jesus refers to Adam & Eve, Jonah, Abraham, Moses, Noah, Elijah, quotes from Jeremiah, Isaiah, Moses, etc. Paul continually refers to Abraham and Moses, the entire nation of Israel, etc Have you read the Book of Hebrews lately - chap 11 in particular? And what's the purpose of God recording accounts of their ancient lives? Just to "write things about the Patriarchs that illuminate the lives and beliefs of these ancient believers" ?? Romans 15:4 (ESV) 4 For whatever was written in former days was written for our instruction, that through endurance and through the encouragement of the Scriptures we might have hope. 1 Corinthians 10:6–11 (ESV) 6 Now these things took place as examples for us, that we might not desire evil as they did. 7 Do not be idolaters as some of them were; as it is written, “The people sat down to eat and drink and rose up to play.” 8 We must not indulge in sexual immorality as some of them did, and twenty-three thousand fell in a single day. 9 We must not put Christ to the test, as some of them did and were destroyed by serpents, 10 nor grumble, as some of them did and were destroyed by the Destroyer. 11 Now these things happened to them as an example, but they were written down for our instruction, on whom the end of the ages has come. So, Paul covers what Abraham believed - that he would be together with all the saved in the New Jerusalem, not before. That's what the words, 'only together with us' refer to. Nonsense. I just finished reading An Exact Exposition of the Orthodox Faith, by St John Damascene, written in the 5th cent. Regarding this nonsense of 'soul sleep' - he says repeatedly in his chapter on death; "And it is clear that the souls do not lie in the graves, but the bodies... For no one surely would say that the souls sleep in the dust of the earth... Now no one in his senses would ever say that the souls are in the graves... We shall therefore rise again, our souls being once more united with our bodies..." So St John of Damascus and I agree with Scripture - your doctrinal position has always been regarded as nonsense by historic orthodox Christianity. You are simply vomiting up that same Bible passages again and again, deliberately ignoring what I've already covered. I don't vomit up Bible passages - I quote from Scripture so that you might learn Bible doctrine. Though you maintain you're some serious student - you simply do not understand some fairly simple and straight forward truths. I notice that you've said diddly-squat about that anastasin, the up-standing of the resurrected dead that happens only at the last day. You're statements re "anastasin" are simply examples of a 'wooden literalism' that reveals your poor hermeneutics. Eisegesis at its best. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bornagainathiest Posted August 5, 2011 Author Share Posted August 5, 2011 You're statements re "anastasin" are simply examples of a 'wooden literalism' that reveals your poor hermeneutics. Eisegesis at its best. You, the Bible Literalist are accusing me of 'wooden literalism'? That's rich! Well, I see that you've taken the soft option and replied to this thread, not the other one about Biblical Inerrancy. So, have you found that passage that Matthew quotes from Jeremiah, yet? You see friend, everything you believe stands or falls on the issue of Biblical Inerrancy. Your anti-Evolution stance, your Young Earth Creationism, the historicity of Genesis... everything. Now, when you find me that non-existent passage from Jeremiah, that's when I'll take anything you say seriously... including your above message. Sadly, I've gotta go... familial committments and all. But I'll be back after the 22nd. It's a shame because I'd like to stay and rub your nose in the non-existent Inerrancy of scripture. As it is, I'll just have to delay that pleasure. Byeeeeeeee! BAA. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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