I am pleased

[pug]

They can't use what they don't have...

Just look at their answers about the allknowingness of their god. They aren't even *TRYING*. I wonder what they still do around here... do they like it so much to hear their own screams in the desert?

Dumbasses.

It's sad to see such a waste of human brain. 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Firstly, IMHO, God do not want us to waste our human brain proving he exists or not.

 

Secondly, how to explain God? Unless you are all-knowing?

[Asuryan]

It is as they say.  One man's trash is another man's treasure.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

No, guy, trash and treasure have nothing to do with god being all knowing.

Don't you think that it is too cozy, too easy to say that "yes, god is all knowing, but we don't know what the word "all knowing" means since we are not all knowing ourselves"?

We DO know what all knowing means. If you don't, go search a dictionary, then come back here. Done? Good.

 

Now, try and use your hypotetical reasoning. No offense meant here.

Let's say that god knows everything, then he also knows that on 2010 a woman called Jane will develop lung cancer, and she will die after about a year of horrible agony. God knows everything, so he also knows that Jane will be married to a christian man called John. God knows everything, so he already knows that John will desperately pray to god to heal his wife, hell, god even knows the exact words that John will utter, day after day, while his wife worsen and die. God knowing everything, he also knows that after his wife's death, John will leave the Xtian faith forever, convinced that there is no god at all, and will die on 2031, going then straight to hell since he'll have renounced christ.

God knows everything. He knows this. He could fix everything up by simply willing Jane's cancer to never develop. It would be so easy for him to save John's soul.

Time passes, it's now 2010, and John has started his wailing and kneeling to plead god to save his beloved wife.

Why should god change his mind?

God already knew that jane would develop lung cancer, god already knows when jane will die, god already knows that john will abandon christianity. It's not that John's prayers are making a difference: god knew those prayers, and knew when they would've been uttered, well before John was born. Those prayers are nothing new, why should they move god now? They didn't move god sufficiently to convince him to block that cancer before it ate up at Jane's lungs.

 

There are so many Johns on these boards. People with dear ones dead, people with dear ones seriously, or permanently, ill. God could've blocked those accidents from happening, those illnesses from developing, and so on. Did he? No.

Is god all knowing, and lost all of these souls willingly? Then he doesn't care a fuck.

Isn't god all knowing? Does he, or doesn't he know everything?

 

Is it clearer now, daniel dear?

[pug]

Like you played God above, let me play God too:

 

 

God already knew that jane would develop lung cancer, god already knows when jane will die, god already knows that john will abandon christianity. 1. God also has in his plans for John to meet Amanda who will lead him back to the christian path. 2. Or God knows jane will commit adultery in another year, better to take her before that happens. Hey, they are humans. 3. Or she'll have a car accident and die violently 1 year later. 4. Or she'll die in child birth. 5. Or john writes an AntiChrist book which sparked a Christian revival.

 

It's not that John's prayers are making a difference: god knew those prayers, and knew when they would've been uttered, well before John was born. Those prayers are nothing new, why should they move god now? They didn't move god sufficiently to convince him to block that cancer before it ate up at Jane's lungs. Nobody knows God's plan. He wanted Jane to enjoy eternal life earlier? Like I stated earlier, you and I are not God.

 

There are so many Johns on these boards. People with dear ones dead, people with dear ones seriously, or permanently, ill. God could've blocked those accidents from happening, those illnesses from developing, and so on. Did he? No.

Is god all knowing, and lost all of these souls willingly? Then he doesn't care a fuck.

All knowing is one thing. And all caring is another. If He wishes to take you up to enjoy eternal life before your time... is that good or bad? Your Johns and Janes suffer on earth but their spouses are happy in heaven. Can't have both.

 

Isn't god all knowing? Does he, or doesn't he know everything?

 

Is it clearer now, daniel dear?

Hope, this speculative, poor explaination helps.

[Asuryan]

Like you played God above, let me play God too:

1. God also has in his plans for John to meet Amanda who will lead him back to the christian path.

...So how does that amends for making both John and Jane suffer horribly? Isn't a whole crystal vase better than a broken up, glued together crystal vase?

 

2. Or God knows jane will commit adultery in another year, better to take her before that happens. Hey, they are humans.

So Jane doesn't have any free will?

I thought that God had given free will to us humans. That Jane was *free* to sin, if she had chosen so, and then *free* to spend all of eternity in hell. Are you saying that now God is steeping so low as to kill people when they are still innocent (and a person is innocent until he or she actually commit a crime, you know)?

But here we go again. God could've healed (or prevent) Jane's lung cancer... AND at the same time, prevent John from abandoning the faith, even if Jane will betray him. It's not that two miracles are more tiring for him than just one, he's all powerful.

And prevent the car accident, or death in childbirth, you are speaking about later on.

 

Nobody knows God's plan. He wanted Jane to enjoy eternal life earlier? Like I stated earlier, you and I are not God.

So why torturing her with a year-long slow agony? If he wanted Jane to enjoy blah blah, couldn't he just have whisked her away with him in his lovely arms, without even killing her? Remember, he can do everything if he wants to...

 

All knowing is one thing. And all caring is another. If He wishes to take you up to enjoy eternal life before your time... is that good or bad? Your Johns and Janes suffer on earth but their spouses are happy in heaven. Can't have both.

Can't have both?

Why not?

Why cannot john and jane spend their terran life happily ever after, and then go together in heaven and be happily ever after there too? Of course god can have both, if he wants to!

 

Hope, this speculative, poor explaination helps.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

well, go and try and tell HanSolo that his family's suffering was all for the best. That, maybe, his son stuck on a wheelchair has deliberately been put on that wheelchair by GOD, because, who knows, maybe if he wasn't on a wheelchair right now he could've walked outside the house, and kicked the crap out of a baby and killed it just for fun.

Tell him that, see what he answers.

 

Postulate:

I don't believe in god. And my arguments here are hypotetical.

[MQTA]

Firstly, IMHO, God do not want us to waste our human brain proving he exists or not.

 

Secondly, how to explain God? Unless you are all-knowing?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

If He didn't want us to be confused, confounded, and with different languages, we wouldn't. WYSIWYG

 

Ever since Babel

[MQTA]

....

 

There are so many Johns on these boards. People with dear ones dead, people with dear ones seriously, or permanently, ill. God could've blocked those accidents from happening, those illnesses from developing, and so on. Did he? No.

Is god all knowing, and lost all of these souls willingly? Then he doesn't care a fuck.

Isn't god all knowing? Does he, or doesn't he know everything?

 

Is it clearer now, daniel dear?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I think that should be clear to anyone! Good post!

[MQTA]

I think that should be clear to anyone!  Good post!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Ok, I was wrong.

[daniel_1012]

No, guy, trash and treasure have nothing to do with god being all knowing.

Don't you think that it is too cozy, too easy to say that "yes, god is all knowing, but we don't know what the word "all knowing" means since we are not all knowing ourselves"?

We DO know what all knowing means. If you don't, go search a dictionary, then come back here. Done? Good.

 

Now, try and use your hypotetical reasoning. No offense meant here.

Let's say that god knows everything, then he also knows that on 2010 a woman called Jane will develop lung cancer, and she will die after about a year of horrible agony. God knows everything, so he also knows that Jane will be married to a christian man called John. God knows everything, so he already knows that John will desperately pray to god to heal his wife, hell, god even knows the exact words that John will utter, day after day, while his wife worsen and die. God knowing everything, he also knows that after his wife's death, John will leave the Xtian faith forever, convinced that there is no god at all, and will die on 2031, going then straight to hell since he'll have renounced christ.

God knows everything. He knows this. He could fix everything up by simply willing Jane's cancer to never develop. It would be so easy for him to save John's soul.

Time passes, it's now 2010, and John has started his wailing and kneeling to plead god to save his beloved wife.

Why should god change his mind?

God already knew that jane would develop lung cancer, god already knows when jane will die, god already knows that john will abandon christianity. It's not that John's prayers are making a difference: god knew those prayers, and knew when they would've been uttered, well before John was born. Those prayers are nothing new, why should they move god now? They didn't move god sufficiently to convince him to block that cancer before it ate up at Jane's lungs.

 

There are so many Johns on these boards. People with dear ones dead, people with dear ones seriously, or permanently, ill. God could've blocked those accidents from happening, those illnesses from developing, and so on. Did he? No.

Is god all knowing, and lost all of these souls willingly? Then he doesn't care a fuck.

Isn't god all knowing? Does he, or doesn't he know everything?

 

Is it clearer now, daniel dear?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Ok, fair enough... God knows about John... but God also knows about Jon. These two men live similar lives as you will see.

 

Jon's wife falls ill to cancer, and he trusts in God. He prays that if the LORD might heal her, he would be greatful... He sleeps at her bedside, and he holds her hand. Even so, Jon does not stray... His heart belongs to God and he does not faulter in putting his faith in his wife... his faith is in God.

 

Now you see, Jon trusts in the Lord as the God of His salvation. Jon does loves his wife, but he also knows that there is more to life than even his beloved wife. Jon didn't give his life to God thinking that people around him, including himself, would never die. Jon received the Lord to save his soul, because he knew he was a sinner and that Christ died for Him. He doesn't hold onto the Lord of his possessions, or even his loved ones here on earth. Jon say, Oh Lord, lover of my soul... I will never let you go. Though this world may pass away, in you my heart will stay. He loves God even more than he loves his wife. Since Jon and his wife are both Christians, better yet, he knows that he will see his wife again someday anyways. Also, Jon realizes that it would be a terrible mistake of those that loved him gave up their faith just because he died. After all... what mortal man has died, and lived to tell about it? Everyone dies, and Jon knows this. Jon knows the world is in a fallen state, but that God is sovreign... He knows that God will not forsake His soul -- for this is the very reason Jon is a Christian. Jon is not a Christian because he loves his wife... he is a Christian, because he loves Jesus Christ... He loves God.

 

Now, these two men... the same is lost to them materially. Both of them lose their wife, yet one man's professed faith is gone, and the other one lives on. Why is this? Perhaps one loved the Lord more than the other... or perhaps one didn't love the Lord at all, but was mislead in what it meant to put your trust in God. Either way, both John and Jon still have hope... because the Lord is not willing that any man should perish, and all that call upon the name of the Lord will be saved.

[pug]

With all due respects, the following post are ALL hypothethical; no reference to any one:

 

 

...So how does that amends for making both John and Jane suffer horribly? Isn't a whole crystal vase better than a broken up, glued together crystal vase??

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

God is heartless? Testing your faith? Hmmmm... Or He wants them to feel his (god's) strength in them? OK John, I gave you a good wife, you didn't appreciate her, so now suffer... so that you know how to appreciate Amanda (2nd wife). Terribly cruel huh?

 

Glued together crystal vase? Beauty in the eye of the beholder? Or "Oooh, i broke this by accident, next time i'll be more careful."

 

Looking for amends? No free lunch i guess.

 

So Jane doesn't have any free will. I thought that God had given free will to us humans. That Jane was *free* to sin, if she had chosen so, and then *free* to spend all of eternity in hell. Are you saying that now God is steeping so low as to kill people when they are still innocent (and a person is innocent until he or she actually commit a crime, you know)?

I'm not saying any thing! Have you forgotten? I'm not God. He does not answer to any of us. He judges us, eeerrr... not the other way round.

 

But here we go again. God could've healed (or prevent) Jane's lung cancer... AND at the same time, prevent John from abandoning the faith, even if Jane will betray him. It's not that two miracles are more tiring for him than just one, he's all powerful.

Could have. He can do it, why not? But if He doesn't wish to? Leave Him because He doesn't perform according to your wish?

 

And prevent the car accident, or death in childbirth, you are speaking about later on. So why torturing her with a year-long slow agony? If he wanted Jane to enjoy blah blah, couldn't he just have whisked her away with him in his lovely arms, without even killing her? Remember, he can do everything if he wants to... Can't have both? Why not?

Same answers as above. AND I repeat I wouldn't know his plans. He's all-knowing.

 

Why cannot john and jane spend their terran life happily ever after, and then go together in heaven and be happily ever after there too? Of course god can have both, if he wants to!

IF He wants to! Perhaps He wants Amanda to save John? And witness to all John's unbelieving friends? There can be thousands of other reasons.

 

well, go and try and tell HanSolo that his family's suffering was all for the best. That, maybe, his son stuck on a wheelchair has deliberately been put on that wheelchair by GOD, because, who knows, maybe if he wasn't on a wheelchair right now he could've walked outside the house, and kicked the crap out of a baby and killed it just for fun. Tell him that, see what he answers.

I did not say "for the best"!!! I do NOT know God's purpose/plan for us. AND I'm not exactly enjoying my life here on earth.

 

HanSolo, I'm sorry you have been dealt such a terrible hand in your life. I think any more I say will not help so... *shuts up*

 

 

Postulate:

I believe in god. And my arguments here are hypothetical.

[MQTA]

apparently it's pointless to have these discussions.

[pug]

Now, these two men... the same is lost to them materially.  Both of them lose their wife, yet one man's professed faith is gone, and the other one lives on.  Why is this?  Perhaps one loved the Lord more than the other... or perhaps one didn't love the Lord at all, but was misled in what it meant to put your trust in God.  Either way, both John and Jon still have hope... because the Lord is not willing that any man should perish, and all that call upon the name of the Lord will be saved.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Ouch, eeek.

 

Daniel, Daniel, that's too close to the bone, too true.

 

I hope it's not lost on these fine folks here.

[MQTA]

bumper stickers aren't lost, just absurd

[pug]

bumper stickers aren't lost, just absurd

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

Well, most of them.

[Mythra]

Now, these two men... the same is lost to them materially.  Both of them lose their wife, yet one man's professed faith is gone, and the other one lives on.  Why is this?  Perhaps one loved the Lord more than the other... or perhaps one didn't love the Lord at all, but was mislead in what it meant to put your trust in God.  Either way, both John and Jon still have hope... because the Lord is not willing that any man should perish, and all that call upon the name of the Lord will be saved.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

You talk about loss of faith like it's a bad thing.

 

WTF?

[MQTA]

I know I had it around here somewhere. Lemme go check the garage. Ooop, never mind, I don't have a garage.

[Asuryan]

Now, these two men... the same is lost to them materially.  Both of them lose their wife, yet one man's professed faith is gone, and the other one lives on.  Why is this?  Perhaps one loved the Lord more than the other... or perhaps one didn't love the Lord at all, but was mislead in what it meant to put your trust in God. 

 

A similar thing could happen to 2 muslim guys.

I am sure that, in their case, you would say:

"The muslim that keeps believing in allah is obstinate in his thinking, he desperately *needs* to believe that he will see his wife again in allah's paradise, and so he clings to the idea that Allah is true. Instead, the muslim that abandon his faith in Allah has opened his eyes, and has seen that his so-called god can't do anything to save people... that, because Allah doesn't exist. Why is that? Is that because the second muslim is able to see the truth as it is? Or because the first muslim is gullible?"

When you describe an hypotetical situation, you keep doing it from a strictly christian perspective. Your words, "one didn't love the lord at all, but was mislead in what it meant to put your trust in god", is just a variant of the good old "You were never a TRUE christian to begin with" that we've all heard many times here.

Please, do not assume that our love for god wasn't true just because we ceased believing in his existance. It is rather offensive to do so.

 

Either way, both John and Jon still have hope... because the Lord is not willing that any man should perish

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

So why creating hell?

[Ouroboros]

I did use logic... though saying that one can use logic to experience what it is like to be all knowing, is debatable...  There is no rule that says an all knowing being can't change their mind if they choose too.  Especially if that all knowing being, in his all knowing ability, set forth a path in which he could change his mind on our behalf -- because He is all knowing... this is the very reason He *can* change His mind.

I can tell that you don't get it!

 

Imagine this:

 

If I would know for certainty what I will decide exactly in one hour from now, 2:30 PM.

Say, that I know I will decide to make coffee.

 

They time comes, it's 2:30 PM.

 

If I make the coffee, I was correct in my foreknowledge (omniscience), but I didn't make a choice.

 

If I change my mind and don't make coffee, my prediction was wrong, and I'm not omniscient, because my knowledge was that I would make coffee, and not change my mind.

 

So the first option means I have omniscience, but no free will.

The second option means I have free will, but no omniscience.

 

Let's take this a step further.

 

Let's say that 1:30 PM I knew that I would change my mind to not make coffee.

 

The time comes, it's 2:30 PM. And I change my mind to make coffee anyway against what I predicted.

 

It is a contradiction and paradox.

 

What I used above is called LOGIC.

 

If you claim exceptions from this argument, you're making EXCUSES and not LOGIC .

[Ouroboros]

...

For instance... lets say even though I *know* beyond a shadow of a doubt that someone (we'll say you) has done wrong, and I *know* I am entirely right -- I can still show grace.  Just because I am all knowing on this matter, doesn't mean I can't change my mind.  In fact, it is the very idea that I am *entirely* right, that allows me to make the choice (even though I don't have to) to show grace, and change my mind.  Grace is *unmerited favor.*  It means that even though you don't deserve it, I am going to pardon you.  It means you are guilty, under the law, and if I want to put an end to you I will.  It is an act of my will, to do for you what I do not have to do.

...

You're making a disctinction between knowing everything that has been and is happening, but not the future. The idea of omniscience is that you also know about the future and your own future actions .

[Ouroboros]

Like you played God above, let me play God too:

God already knew that jane would develop lung cancer, god already knows when jane will die, god already knows that john will abandon christianity. 1. God also has in his plans for John to meet Amanda who will lead him back to the christian path. 2. Or God knows jane will commit adultery in another year, better to take her before that happens. Hey, they are humans. 3. Or she'll have a car accident and die violently 1 year later. 4. Or she'll die in child birth. 5. Or john writes an AntiChrist book which sparked a Christian revival.

...

Are you talking about that God knows about the possible outcomes of each event, or does he know the true and only outcome that actually will happen?

 

One thing to know the possibilities, and another to know for sure which one of the possibilities that actually will occur.

 

If God has a plan for John to meet Amanda, it's not even a plan, God knows this will happen, he's not wishing it to happen.

 

Either God knows the future or he doesn't!

 

Either God calculated the risks and options, or he is already bound by his own foreknowledge of the decisions he will make.

 

How can God "know Jane will die", and yet his decisions make it possible for her to not die? Did he know that he was wrong?

 

Did he know that he knew that he didn't know that he should have known that he would change things so they wouldn't end up the way he thought they would because he knew he didn't??? Did I get that right? Well, I for sure don't know!

[Asuryan]

God is heartless?

 

So why do you worship him?

 

Testing your faith?

He is all knowing. He should already know what my answer to the test will be, without a need to actually test it.

 

Hmmmm... Or He wants them to feel his (god's) strength in them? OK John, I gave you a good wife, you didn't appreciate her, so now suffer... so that you know how to appreciate Amanda (2nd wife). Terribly cruel huh?

Terribly stupid too.

In the first place, I never said that John didn't appreciate Jane. In the second place, killing a woman only to punish his husband for a flaw that HE has, is one of the most assholish thing that one could ever think to do. Not much godly in my eyes.

 

Glued together crystal vase? Beauty in the eye of the beholder? Or "Oooh, i broke this by accident, next time i'll be more careful."

But john didn't break anything.

It's not that john can make it so that his wife does not develop cancer by acting good or by works alone or whatever. Not all cancer develops because of heavy smoking, you know.

 

I'm not saying any thing! Have you forgotten? I'm not God. He does not answer to any of us. He judges us, eeerrr... not the other way round.

Some day, in your life, you *have* judged god, yeah.

You have confronted god and allah and buddha and whatever else, and decided (judged) that you liked god more than all the other divinities or spiritual teachers.

Or maybe you never made a paragon between your god and other divinities?

I hope you did, because if you hadn't, that would be a combination of sheer ignorance and sloth.

 

Could have. He can do it, why not? But if He doesn't wish to? Leave Him because He doesn't perform according to your wish?

No, leave him because he doesn't exist.

Which is very different.

"He can save my dear one's life and/or health. He doesn't wish to." Where does that leave you? Sounds to me that saying "He is all knowing, so he can do things that we would call cruel and selfish and assholish if done by another human being, and still be called good and loving".

That is a weak point in your reasoning, though.

If we cannot call god cruel, because only he knows the reasons behind his plans, then we cannot call him good and loving either, because only he knows the reasons behind his plans again. And as it would be arrogant to pretend we know his reasons to be cruel and evil, it would be as arrogant to pretend we know his reasons to be loving. Understand?

[Ouroboros]

HanSolo, I'm sorry you have been dealt such a terrible hand in your life. I think any more I say will not help so... *shuts up*

No offence taken. Maybe the purpose was to give me a thick skin?

 

I believe in god. And my arguments here are hypothetical.

All arguments about God are actually hypothetical. If they were real, actual, concrete, evidential, then no one of us would have these arguments. It's just because you can't make a logical explanation to the existence of God, and make it stick through the machinery of reason, is because the concept of a God (in the Biblical sense) is inherently irrational and paradoxical

[Cerise]

Why do Christians whine to us that nobody "knows God" or his "plan" and yet turn around and proceed to tell us that they know God and what his plan does and does not include? Do they really mean "nobody but me" or what?

 

If I say "according to this perspective, God's an asshole" and a Christian comes back and tells me "nobody can know God" and therefore my statement is moot, shouldn't that also make their position of "God's NOT an asshole" moot as well?

 

I don't get it. The lack of logic is killing me.

[Ouroboros]

Why do Christians whine to us that nobody "knows God" or his "plan" and yet turn around and proceed to tell us that they know God and what his plan does and does not include?  Do they really mean "nobody but me" or what?

Bugs me too. I the worst part is that even if you explain it to them, they still don't get it.

 

I keep on saying that these Christians believe in God, but are also certain that God is "wearing blue slippers on Sundays." They go from a generic idea and belief in some divine entity (deist view), and then they jump to a monotheistic entity, and then they make the leap to JHWH and then to Jesus. Of course the whole description of God must be taken from an old book, and not discovered by personal experience.

 

If I say "according to this perspective, God's an asshole" and a Christian comes back and tells me "nobody can know God" and therefore my statement is moot, shouldn't that also make their position of "God's NOT an asshole" moot as well?

Absolutely correct observation!

 

I don't get it.  The lack of logic is killing me.   

Yup. Non existing logic, in abundance.

[MQTA]

Why do Christians whine to us that nobody "knows God" or his "plan" and yet turn around and proceed to tell us that they know God and what his plan does and does not include?  Do they really mean "nobody but me" or what?

 

If I say "according to this perspective, God's an asshole" and a Christian comes back and tells me "nobody can know God" and therefore my statement is moot, shouldn't that also make their position of "God's NOT an asshole" moot as well?

 

I don't get it.  The lack of logic is killing me.   

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

OH YEAH! LOL. Good one. Gotcha! Gotta remember this one.

 

[MQTA]

Bugs me too. I the worst part is that even if you explain it to them, they still don't get it.

Exactly! Funny how it's obvious and transparent to everyone else.

 

I keep on saying that these Christians believe in God, but are also certain that God is "wearing blue slippers on Sundays." They go from a generic idea and belief in some divine entity (deist view), and then they jump to a monotheistic entity, and then they make the leap to JHWH and then to Jesus. Of course the whole description of God must be taken from an old book, and not discovered by personal experience.

 

I like the LEAP from Creator of The Universe, The ENTIRE Universe, And everything in it. Set up a construction area with stars strung out as lights, until he was able to create the light source Sun AFTER doing the Earth, all the way down to the Garden and giving a shit about us ANTS.

 

Or does He also care about every single ant too? Do the ants pray in mass for that big sole to not flaten them like paper? Aw, didn't work this time, but the one writing the ant folklore was one of the survivors.

 

 

 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>