Christian Spanking, Domination

[★ Citsonga ★]

This is like having a discussion with a fundie Christian about why hell is abuse while they go: "No it isn't!"

 

I was also thinking that this is like having a discussion with a fundie. You want to broadbrush everyone based on your own experience.

 

By the way, is hell sexual abuse or physical abuse?

 

One more time: http://www.nospank.net/sexdngrs.htm

 

OK, later on I'll make some time to look at that. Whatever it says, though, cannot change what I have experienced. I was spanked numerous times, and it was never sexual, so any claim that all spanking is sexual is definitely false. As far as some spanking being sexual abuse, I NEVER DENIED THAT.

 

If you don't understand the buttocks is a private area with nerve endings that produce SEXUAL responses in a large majority of humanity then I'm done discussing/dealing with you on the subject.

 

That depends on a lot of factors, such as age, personal level of arrousal and the way that the spanking is conducted. I would say that if the "large majority" of children being spanked were beaten the way I was beaten, then there would not be much of a chance of that "large majority" having "sexual responses" to the spanking.

 

In summary, my point is merely this: Yes, SOME spanking may very well be sexual abuse, but NOT ALL.

[ConureDelSol]

I think we should all just agree that SOME people experience spanking as sexual and SOME don't. There. Argument done.

[mymistake]

I think we should all just agree that SOME people experience spanking as sexual and SOME don't. There. Argument done.

 

Well that was my post 81 and Citsonga's post 86. I don't understand why some found that position offensive. I did read Tom Johnson's article. I believe he makes several errors but there is no point in going into that under these circumstances.

[badpuppy]

I said I was out of this, but fuck it. It pisses me off that this issue is being so downplayed. A place like Ex-C is supposed to be a place of support for people and ALL the shit they have to deal with from their Christian past including any type of abuse involved in that Christian experience. It's not okay to pretend sexual abuse isn't sexual abuse just because thinking about it makes you uncomfortable or just because it's not someone fingering someone. There are many ways to sexually violate someone.

 

So no. we CANNOT just "agree" that spanking is sexual to SOME and not to others because that entirely misses the point here.

 

Key points for anybody skimming and not listening to me:

 

I'm not saying every person who spanks a child is getting off on it. Nor am I saying every child is getting off on it. I'm saying it is inappropriate touching of a sexual part of the body that isn't consented to. This is not even a debatable topic.

 

Your ass is an errogenous zone.

 

Children are sexual beings.

 

Spanking is sexual abuse.

 

I do not care how anyone wants to justify it or deny it. I understand WHY people want to deny it but it is still deeply wrong and damaging to a great many people, not just as physical abuse but as SEXUAL abuse. It seems like some people seriously do not understand that the buttocks is a sexual part of the body. That kind of sexual ignorance astounds me. It's a private part. (i.e. one of those parts your mommy and daddy told you not to let strangers look at or touch.) It should not be exposed or hit during punishment. Period.

 

I will always stand firm on this and people can deny it forever. And I will consider those people completely backwards.

 

When you say that maybe "sometimes" it's sexual abuse but mostly it isn't... then you're basically blaming the victim. It's like saying there is "something weird or wrong" with the person who reacted in a negative way to it. Like "for some weird reason" it warped someone's sexuality or turned that child on. Like there is something wrong with the KID. No, it isn't some wacko wiring in the kid. It's WRONG BEHAVIOR.

 

There is nothing wrong with me or mudhoney or anyone else who had some issue due to being spanked. It's inappropriate to spank a child, bare buttocks or no. It's humiliating. It's an exercise of power and domination. It's forcefully touching a sexual part of the body, causing pain to a sexual area of the body, against the child's will. While I like my kink as an adult and don't look at my parents as sexual predators it is beyond ICKY to me that most of my sexual identity was in some part shaped by something my parents did to discipline me. To behave as if there was just something "weird" about me to begin with by denying that even normal-level spanking is sexual abuse (no matter whether it damages/traumatizes/twists the kid or not) is just unacceptable to me. My body was violated. My privacy was violated. I was touched in a forceful way in a private area of my body without my consent. It is NOT okay to behave like this is an okay behavior and not sexual abuse.

 

I'm not sure how much more clearly this position can be stated but I question the motives of anyone so dead set on denial who refuses to even read the article I linked. Willful ignorance is pretty annoying, especially when it comes to issues like abuse.

 

For anyone here interested in actual truth on this matter, here's an article by a therapist on the subject:

 

http://naturalchildh...ized-abuse.html

 

The problem here is that to say it might be sexual abuse to some but not to others is to say it comes down somehow to how the kid reacts and that is blaming the victim. You might not see it that way, but it is. To say it's EVER okay for an adult to hit a sexual part of somebody's body against their will is to deny the serious damage this behavior causes many and to pretend it isn't "really" sexual abuse, but just processed that way by some.

 

No.

 

It's sexual abuse.

 

One more question. If someone turned you over their knee as an adult and spanked you (with or without taking your pants down), and told you they loved you but that you needed to be disciplined, would you interpret that as asexual?

 

If you can't view this in a totally asexual way as an adult, why the hell is it suddenly asexual if done to a child? We all know our buttocks are a sexual area of the body. It may not be a "primary sexual organ" but neither are breasts. Breasts, genitals, and buttocks are all considered private, sexual areas.

 

Children deserve the dignity of not having these areas violated in ANY way. (And I agree with someone above that changing a diaper is NOT the same thing and it's disingenous to pretend that it is.)

 

If a 16 year old girl was spanked by a parent, most of us consider this a form of sexual assault. So, why is it sexual abuse if done to a 16 year old girl but somehow not sexual abuse if done to a 7 year old girl? Are we still operating under the delusion that children are not sexual beings? We consider other forms of sexual abuse STILL (and often ESPECIALLY) sexual abuse when done to children. So why is this different? Is it different just because you don't want it to be true?

[mymistake]

I understand WHY people want to deny it . . .

 

apparently not.

 

It seems like some people seriously do not understand that the buttocks is a sexual part of the body. That kind of sexual ignorance astounds me.

 

But who has such an ignorance? It's a big world so if you look hard enough you might find someone. However that doesn't have anything to do with the people here.

 

 

When you say that maybe "sometimes" it's sexual abuse but mostly it isn't... then you're basically blaming the victim.

 

That is not true. I'm sorry if you are upset about this topic but that is no reason for you to say things about others that are not true.

 

It's like saying there is "something weird or wrong" with the person who reacted in a negative way to it. Like "for some weird reason" it warped someone's sexuality or turned that child on. Like there is something wrong with the KID. No, it isn't some wacko wiring in the kid. It's WRONG BEHAVIOR.

 

Nothing I said was anything like that.

 

My body was violated. My privacy was violated. I was touched in a forceful way in a private area of my body without my consent. It is NOT okay to behave like this is an okay behavior and not sexual abuse.

 

I'm not sure how much more clearly this position can be stated but I question the motives of anyone so dead set on denial who refuses to even read the article I linked. Willful ignorance is pretty annoying, especially when it comes to issues like abuse.

 

I read the article. It is flawed. Is this about you or about an idea?

 

The problem here is that to say it might be sexual abuse to some but not to others is to say it comes down somehow to how the kid reacts and that is blaming the victim.

 

That is categorically untrue. Let me decide what I say and what I intend by it. If you have questions about my intent I am more than happy to answer. Now do you know of anybody in this thread who has advocated spanking? If nobody has then who do you see as your opponent in this debate?

[badpuppy]

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[badpuppy]

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[mymistake]

@Mymistake so you think it's okay for an adult to forcefully/painfully touch a sexual part of a child's body against his/her will?

 

No

 

"If you want to call spanking a form of child abuse go ahead." - MM, this thread, post #58

 

This is about me.

 

Then maybe we should start a new thread so you can work through that in a less confrontational way. You have to get that out. Now if you need me to play the role of your father or whoever so that you can yell at someone I'm okay with that. Roleplay can be therapeutic. Just don't get so caught up in it that you start to lose track that I do not advocate spanking.

 

Why are you so personally invested in denying that it's not okay to touch a child like that?

 

I am not. That is not the point of disagreement. ConureDelSol summed it up nicely. It's not true that all spanking is sexual. It is true that some spanking is sexual abuse.

 

Were you spanked?

 

"My dad would punish with a belt and that was socially acceptable back then." MM, Mybigmistake, post #1

 

"I was only hit on the legs or butt; only with the open hand, belt, wooden spoon or switch." MM, this thread, post #66

 

 

Did you spank? Were you on either end of this and just can't accept how wrong the act is? And how damaging it can be to some?

 

So here are some questions:

 

Do you think the buttocks are a sexual/private part of the body? If not, please explain to me why we are taught by our society not to expose our buttocks or let a stranger see or touch us there?

 

If you do see the buttocks as a sexual part of the body then explain to me your justification for any adult to hit that part of the body (bared or not) in an act that violates a child's privacy, decency, and humiliates them against their will. Since you're so convinced it's not sexual abuse, then explain why not.

 

If you think that article is "flawed" then where is your better research that refutes it?

 

BP have you not been reading my messages in this thread?

 

"However it left me with problems later in life so I can't argue with those who claim spanking is abuse." MM. this thread, post #66

 

" . . . when I was a kid was because we got beaten so often and cowered in fear." MM, this thread, post #69

 

Yes of course the buttocks are an erogenous zone. If you really want an analysis on how our society developed a taboo around ass touching you are going to have to give me more time. I'm not prepared to get into that now. If you just wanted me to acknowledge it is taboo then fine I have no problem with that.

 

I don't need research to refute that article. Clearly there was an overgeneralization. That is the point where the logic breaks down.

 

Erogenous zone + touching = sexual abuse

 

Human sexuality is far more complicated than that. Otherwise every kiss my grandmother or aunt gave me was sexual abuse. Every handshake is sexual. Sitting on the toilet is sexual. Doctors giving kids IM shots is sexual. This doesn't add up. Overgeneralization has false results. I don't care what credentials the author has he should know better than to overgeneralize.

 

I respect your experience. What you say happened when you were abused I take at face value. Now please return the favor. You were not in the room when I was being spanked. There are only a few witnesses to that event and I am one of them. Respect my experience. Citsonga is in the same boat. He was there when he was being spanked. You and I were not. When the victims say a certain event wasn't sexual then chances are it wasn't. If you say your experience was then I take you at your word.

 

That some spanking isn't sexual abuse in no way blames you for how you were mistreated nor diminishes your suffering in any way. Perhaps you think the person who spanked you knew how it was effecting you or should have known . . . I've never met them and can offer no opinion. It's a blank to me. You were there so I will take your word for it.

[badpuppy]

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[badpuppy]

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[Guest Valk0010]

 

And in fact, the only time I feel violated by that action is when another person tells me it wasn't a violation and that what he did was okay. (Something that happened very recently... not you.)

 

My apologies, yes, incase I am on ignore for you, someone else please to me a favor and tell her my apologies. I should have thought over that better.

[badpuppy]

And in fact, the only time I feel violated by that action is when another person tells me it wasn't a violation and that what he did was okay. (Something that happened very recently... not you.)

 

My apologies, yes, incase I am on ignore for you, someone else please to me a favor and tell her my apologies. I should have thought over that better.

 

It's okay Valk, i'm sorry I flipped out on you. It just made me feel so terrible when you said that.

[Guest Valk0010]

And in fact, the only time I feel violated by that action is when another person tells me it wasn't a violation and that what he did was okay. (Something that happened very recently... not you.)

 

My apologies, yes, incase I am on ignore for you, someone else please to me a favor and tell her my apologies. I should have thought over that better.

 

It's okay Valk, i'm sorry I flipped out on you. It just made me feel so terrible when you said that.

Sorry I am sort of half awake at this second. I rethought what I was thinking and realized you were right. If sex happens without consent, that is rape. I shouldn't have said what I said. We cool.

[badpuppy]

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[badpuppy]

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[mymistake]

Hope you are feeling better.

[Foxy Methoxy]

I got spanked a lot. A LOT. It made me want to murder my father. Whether or not it is sexual abuse, I think Badpuppy makes a pretty good case. I'd have a tough time calling it that, however, because I'd be labeling my parents not only child abusers, but child molesters and there is no way I could do that. She does make some good points and convinced me if I ever have children, I won't spank them.

[★ Citsonga ★]

I left the thread for a while so things could simmer down. I decided to come back to check out the article linked here:

 

One more time: http://www.nospank.net/sexdngrs.htm

 

In the very first sentence, the author defines "spanking" as "slapping the buttocks." However, not all spanking is slapping. When I was spanked, I got belt lashes, as many people have. Many have also been spanked with paddles or twigs. It appears that, right off the bat, this author is attempting to build his case by ignoring a significant portion of spanking. With such a slanted approach right off the bat, I see no reason to read any further into this article.

 

A place like Ex-C is supposed to be a place of support for people and ALL the shit they have to deal with from their Christian past including any type of abuse involved in that Christian experience.

 

You do have our support. I have expressed sympathy for what you have experienced, and I have never taken away from that. Nobody here has denied your experience.

 

It's not okay to pretend sexual abuse isn't sexual abuse just because thinking about it makes you uncomfortable or just because it's not someone fingering someone. There are many ways to sexually violate someone.

 

Of course it's not OK to pretend that sexual abuse isn't sexual abuse. Nobody here has said that you weren't sexually abused.

 

On the other hand, is it OK to pretend that there is sexual abuse in instances where there really isn't? Making up claims of sexual abuse is every bit as bad as denying real cases of sexual abuse.

 

I'm not saying every person who spanks a child is getting off on it. Nor am I saying every child is getting off on it. I'm saying it is inappropriate touching of a sexual part of the body that isn't consented to. This is not even a debatable topic.

 

Yet it is debatable. If nothing sexual happens, then it's not sexual abuse. Physical abuse, yes.

 

If I were to charge my father with sexual abuse for spanking me, it would be a false charge. He did physically abuse me, but never once did he sexually abuse me. Period.

 

I do not care how anyone wants to justify it or deny it. I understand WHY people want to deny it but it is still deeply wrong and damaging to a great many people, not just as physical abuse but as SEXUAL abuse.

 

Nobody here is justifying spanking, and nobody here is saying that it is not damaging to a great many people. As far as denial, why do some deny that not all spanking is sexual abuse?

 

It seems like some people seriously do not understand that the buttocks is a sexual part of the body. That kind of sexual ignorance astounds me. It's a private part. (i.e. one of those parts your mommy and daddy told you not to let strangers look at or touch.) It should not be exposed or hit during punishment. Period.

 

As I have pointed out, changing diapers requires exposing the buttocks, and you also have to wipe/rub a dirty buttocks clean.

 

On the other hand, spanking does not require exposing the buttocks (and I have already agreed that forcing a child to disrobe for a spanking should be classified as sexual abuse), nor does it require touching the buttocks (many use belts, twigs, paddles, etc.).

 

You have said that the intent of the parent and the perception of the child don't matter, it's the act of touching the buttocks that makes it sexual. By that very requirement, diaper changing would also be rendered sexual. Why do you ignore this?

 

I will always stand firm on this and people can deny it forever. And I will consider those people completely backwards.

 

Claiming that we're in denial and backwards does not make it so. Nobody here has denied that spanking can be sexual abuse. You, on the other hand, are in denial regarding the fact that spanking is not automatically sexual, and you have conveniently ignored the point I made about diaper changing.

 

When you say that maybe "sometimes" it's sexual abuse but mostly it isn't... then you're basically blaming the victim. It's like saying there is "something weird or wrong" with the person who reacted in a negative way to it. Like "for some weird reason" it warped someone's sexuality or turned that child on. Like there is something wrong with the KID.

 

No, no, no, no. Nobody here has said anything of the sort. I have NEVER blamed you for what you experienced. You are not responsible for the abuse you endured.

 

Nor do I recall saying that spanking "mostly" isn't sexual abuse (I haven't quantified it; I have merely said that it's not all sexual abuse).

[★ Citsonga ★]

For anyone here interested in actual truth on this matter, here's an article by a therapist on the subject:

 

http://naturalchildh...ized-abuse.html

 

That article looks pretty reasonable to me. Though the previous article you linked severely limited the definition of spanking in the very first sentence, I was able to read this whole article and find myself agreeing with it.

 

The problem here is that to say it might be sexual abuse to some but not to others is to say it comes down somehow to how the kid reacts and that is blaming the victim. You might not see it that way, but it is. To say it's EVER okay for an adult to hit a sexual part of somebody's body against their will is to deny the serious damage this behavior causes many and to pretend it isn't "really" sexual abuse, but just processed that way by some.

 

Um, you may want to read the last article you linked again. It says this:

 

It is certainly true, however, that spanking can affect children differently. The sensitivity of the victim, the comfort with touching and nudity in the family and relationship with the perpetrator all impact how this socially accepted form of punishment will affect the child.

 

In addition to that, nowhere does the article say that all who spank should be labeled sexual abusers.

 

I can agree with the article, while you exaggerate things beyond what the article claims.

 

One more question. If someone turned you over their knee as an adult and spanked you (with or without taking your pants down), and told you they loved you but that you needed to be disciplined, would you interpret that as asexual?

 

I probably shouldn't bother responding to this, since my questions regarding diaper changing have been ignored.

 

However, I will say that I don't recall ever being turned over my parents' knees, and I never spanked my children that way (when I did spank them at all, just a few times many years ago).

 

Spanking is abuse, and I agree that it should be classified as abuse.

 

(And I agree with someone above that changing a diaper is NOT the same thing and it's disingenous to pretend that it is.)

 

OK, so you did finally get around to mentioning it, but you had to throw in a false accusation instead of really answering it. There is absolutely nothing disingenuous about the comparison I made. You have repeatedly said that the parent's intent and the child's perception shouldn't matter, and that touching of the buttocks should automatically be classified as sexual. In that regard, diaper changing is absolutely a fair and reasonable comparison, and by those very standards that you yourself have set forth, it would have to be classified as sexual. To try to sidestep this issue is what is disingenuous.

 

Again, I sympathize with you and your experiences, and I have never said that you were to blame for the abuse you received. You were clearly traumatized, and I feel sorry for you. With that in mind, it appears that your emotional attachment to the subject is limiting your perception of the broader spectrum of spanking. This is probably not intentional on your part, but it does cause you to broadbrush the issue.

 

I agree totally that spanking is abuse, and I agree totally that some spanking is sexual abuse. I am not advocating spanking at all, nor am I denying your experience or blaming you for what you experienced.

 

In addition, I do want to express thanks for playing a role in opening my eyes to a broader possibility of sexual abuse in spanking. Though I did know of one family that made their children disrobe for spankings, which I have always considered sexual abuse, the thought had never entered my mind that some could actually be sexually stimulated by some forms of spanking (probably due to my own experience when I was spanked, which never had any sexual element). That is definitely something worth knowing, since it shows that some spanking can have unintended sexual consequences (unintended on both sides).

[Ro-bear]

My parents spanked with belt, brush, switch, and hand. It never turned me on at all. But I had a girlfriend who liked to be spanked and I liked spanking her very much.

 

I do not spank my children.