Molding Victims?

[white_raven23]

Discussions in another thread got me thinking this morning, and I realized something.

 

More "bad shit" happened to me when I was a Christian, than has happened since.

 

Check this out.

 

Take a close look at the bible stories many of us were exposed to as children. Also the anecdotal stories we heard from the pulpit.

 

These stories all had a common theme "bad things happen-god intervenes, directly through miracles, or indirectly by 'sending someone' to help".

 

This is a dangerous construct to put into a little mind.

 

Note: These are things I realized only by looking back on my life, I did not recognize these patterns as they happened.

 

I have never had any trouble or hesitation with helping other people. I've had friends attacked by dogs, creepy guys wearing lingere frightening children in wooded parks (I was 9 myself), boyfriends beating on their girlfriends. Every time I've not hesitated in helping in some way by confronting the threat (much to my mother's great fright, as she didn't like me endangering myself).

 

But here is the real kicker.

 

While I had no trouble at all facing down people who were bullying, abusing, or scaring my friends.......I seemed to have a blocker when it came to helping MYSELF.

 

I've received unwanted sexual contact (through clothes) in a darkened classroom full of other kids and a teacher during a history film. I was terrorized by a drug dealer (when I tried to get help....the school treated ME like the problem, I gave up), and my personal favorite shame, I was molested at 35,000 feet in a plane for over 2 hours surrounded by people!

 

What gives? In several of these situations, all I had to do was stand up and scream.... I know that now. But looking back, I think there was something MORE than just fear blocking me.

 

On some level, I don't think I saw it as my "job" to help myself. It was my job to help others, to in effect be used by god to do the right thing. But it was someone ELSE'S "job" to help me in turn.

 

I could not rescue myself.....someone was supposed to be my god appointed hero.

 

Sounds crazy even to me now. Obviously if I'd realized at the time the nature of this subconscious mental construct at the time, I would have seen how flawed this worldview was (probably would have deconverted sooner too).

 

Since abandoning religion, interestingly enough, I don't expect a hero outside of myself. I don't hesitate to see if someone else is going to intervene on my behalf.

 

I have had bad scenarios come up, but I can't call them situations anymore because I recognized the danger, and I've done whatever was necessary to nip the threat in the bud before it could unfold into disaster. No more waiting to see what is going to happen and who was going to do something about it.....I save my own butt.

 

Looking back, I feel angry at all those bible stories and anecdotal sermons I heard of god intervening in people's lives. Without knowing it, I was being prepped for "wait for a hero when threatened" behavior.

 

It makes me wonder what the stats are for women as domestic abuse survivors. What is the ration between women coming from religious backgrounds versus those who don't?

 

Thoughts?

[Mythra]

I don't know if this is related more to gender, or to the religion itself.

 

"God helps those who help themselves"

 

Best verse in the bible.

 

Except it isn't in the bible.

 

Religion turns a person (male or female) into a dishrag.

 

We are all helpless to help ourselves. That's why "Jesus" had to come and do his gig for us. We are too filthy to save ourselves.

 

I'm a lot more self-reliant and self-protective now that I know I'm all I got.

 

ps: If I would have been there when the flasher dude was flashing little kids, or the guy was messin with you on the airplane, you woulda had your hero.

[white_raven23]

Awwwww!!

 

That means something to me....even after all this time.

*sniff*

Getting Fur-Klempt.....talk amongst yourselves......

[Mad_Gerbil]

White Raven:

 

While I'm certainly not an expert, I think it is characteristic of all children (despite religious training) to not defend him/herself against an abuser because children are afraid of opposing authority. It is my understanding that is why child molestors so often get away with it.

 

Bad religious training, and the criticism thereof, certainly has a place but in this case I cannot help but feel that it is in the nature of children to 'not cry out' -- the fear of the adult is what allows it to happen and the idea that something embarrassing and dirty is going on and that it should be hidden.

 

That is what I've always been told anyways.

 

Incidently, the molesting of children is one thing that I think warrants the death penalty since it is almost always a serial crime. The ease at which people can get away with it is shocking and these stupid cases where a person gets away with it to go on and do it another 100 times needs to stop.

 

I've got two young daughters.

Put the molestors in the ground and give a kid a break already.

[inini]

[quote name=white_raven:

 

 

"I have never had any trouble or hesitation with helping other people."

ME: EXACTLY!!!!

 

"While I had no trouble at all facing down people who were bullying' date=' abusing, or scaring my friends.......I seemed to have a blocker when it came to helping MYSELF."

 

ME: EXACTLY!!

 

 

"What gives? In several of these situations, all I had to do was stand up and scream.... I know that now. But looking back, I think there was something MORE than just fear blocking me."

 

ME: EXACTLY!!

 

"On some level, I don't think I saw it as my "job" to help myself. It was my job to help others, to in effect be used by god to do the right thing. But it was someone ELSE'S "job" to help me in turn."

 

"I could not rescue myself.....someone was supposed to be my god appointed hero."

 

ME: EXACTLY!!!

 

 

Raven, I can sympathize with this completely. I, too, thought that I should ALWAYS be there for other people, and I would also be taken care of by the sky guy. (Not that one follows the other precisely, that was just the construct.)

 

SO I WAS there ALWAYS for everyone, everytime, anywhere... SHEESH! I nearly drove myself insane from the stress. I finally quit my job (at a church) (more about that in my initial post) in total burnout. All the while my spouse (who still goes to church regularly) was pouring on the stress at home. I finally walked out on him, too, and have been sorry I went back.

 

Raven, I am so sorry for your troubles and am so happy that you have turned your back on the whole idea of people using you and using you up. You are a strong person for making in through!

 

When I look back on the behavior that I had learned, I realized, as you did, that no one is going to take care of us but ourselves. I try not to be bitter about it, but I'm not real successful at it. I do enjoy my peace and quiet these days, and I hope you are also.

Best,

[Guest Guest_serenitynow_*]

It makes me wonder what the stats are for women as domestic abuse survivors. What is the ration between women coming from religious backgrounds versus those who don't?

 

Thoughts?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I feel for you WR and am so sorry for all that has happened. I'm not sure about statistics but know that child abuse has no barriers; rich/poor, white/black, thin/fat, christian/not christian. However, America IS a Christian majority by far and of course none of them are "true" Christians. However, my ex step-mother was abused by her atheist father so and it didn't stop...went into her adult life, that is how bad her head was and sick he was as well (he's dead). She's still an atheist and she is an alcoholic also. She was married to my dad for the past 6 years but all her life she keeps being drawn to abusive men. She left my dad for a man that has no job, is an alcoholic and beats her silly. My father never laid a hand on her, ever, she is drawn to abusive relationships though. :-( It's like she couldn't handle not being with a man that wasn't abusive.

 

I think the attitude comes from fairytales (prince charming), traditions, etc. also. Many women in my age group 35 and those older were raised thinking the ideal was to marry a handsome guy and that happiness is from having a male to take care of us, that they'd rush in and save the day if things went wrong. Chivalry...KWIM? Not that Cinderalla and such are bad movies but they do "sublimenally" fill a young girls mind with images of heroes.

 

Just another thought to the possible "why".

[white_raven23]

I'm not so sure it's as easy as seperating cultural influence from religion. I know very much how little girls are given "damsel in distress" training in culture.

 

But why?

 

I have a hard time imagining one of the old goddess worshipping cultures, celebrating the feminine divine (giving women power) having a "damsel in distress" culture training for their young women.

 

Trying to seperate religion and culture, and the effects they have on each other makes little sense to me. Same will assigning blame and innocence for social issues. Religion cannot be innocent of effecting culture. It is a major influence. Culture cannot be exempt from effecting religion either, that's why our holidays are the way they are and when they are.

 

So religion is not blameless in this matter. It is a part of our culture, and is as much accountable for creating victims as poverty and drug abuse.

[inini]

I'm not so sure it's as easy as seperating cultural influence from religion. I know very much how little girls are given "damsel in distress" training in culture.

 

But why?

 

WR: It's called patriarchy, honey. And xtianity fits right into it. It works for males because they get all the perks and it is my opinion that it seems to work for females because if they go along with it, and gain favor from the males, that they are somehow "protected" and have the back-up of the dominant/preditor males.

 

Just my opinion.

[inini]

PS... don't get me wrong, not all males think or act this way and I don't hate all men. It's just that the ones who do practice the furtherance of patriarchy are prevalent and not to be ignored.

[Mad_Gerbil]

So religion is not blameless in this matter. It is a part of our culture, and is as much accountable for creating victims as poverty and drug abuse.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

There can be do doubt about that (first part)... although I'm not sure how religion leads to drug abuse.

[Razor]

I think she meant (correct me if I'm wrong WR)  religion is to abuse victims as poverty is to drug abuse.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Jesus said,

Your body is the temple, you choose which spirit dwells therin,

Light or Darkness

To those who choose darkness I can only say, How Dense is the Darkness!

 

Fortunately this World and its ways will not last.

 

Peace

[MQTA]

Fortunately this World and its ways will not last.

 

Peace

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

Christianity is also an ecologically irresponsible religion. Christians believe that Christ is coming back and is going to destroy the world, and therefore it's ok to trash the planet because Jesus is going to destroy it anyhow. This destruction is going to occur in our lifetime; however, we did make it through Y2K and Jesus isn't here yet, and if I were a Christian, I'd be getting pretty nervous that Armageddon is coming any time soon. Nonetheless, Christians don't accept that this planet is a finite ball in space, and it's our home (for now) and that we have to keep it clean and livable.

 

The biggest ecological threat we have is overpopulation. Christianity is the enemy, in general, of responsible family planning, which includes access to abortions and birth control. The church opposes the use of new technologies that empower women to have control and choice as to when they will reproduce. Christianity considers sex a sin and pregnancy to be a deterrent to sexual behavior, and to remove the penalty of pregnancy would result in increased sexual activity. However, the church's opposition to birth control, mostly by Catholics, has resulted in overpopulation and has increased famine, disease, and death. Christianity has not been the friend of preserving the limited resources of the planet.

[Mad_Gerbil]

I think she meant (correct me if I'm wrong WR)  religion is to abuse victims as poverty is to drug abuse.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Ah.. okay, that makes alot more sense.

 

I certainly think that can be true -- although I wouldn't say religion results in abuse but instead some religion is itself a form of abuse that allows for other forms of abuse.

 

For example, Jehovah's Witnesses used to teach that if a woman didn't scream while being raped that she was sinning sexually. So if a guy held a gun and told you to shaddup and submit or die and you submitted to save your life then it wouldn't be 'rape' according the them.

 

So reading that some would say the religion leads to abuse whereas I'd push it back one step further and say the religion itself is abuse as well as the resulting idiocy.

[BeccasStillSeeking]

Discussions in another thread got me thinking this morning, and I realized something.

 

More "bad shit" happened to me when I was a Christian, than has happened since.

 

Check this out.

 

Take a close look at the bible stories many of us were exposed to as children. Also the anecdotal stories we heard from the pulpit.

 

These stories all had a common theme "bad things happen-god intervenes, directly through miracles, or indirectly by 'sending someone' to help".

 

This is a dangerous construct to put into a little mind.

 

...wow. Nail. Head. BAM. Straight into the wood, one blow, like a textual Mr. Miyagi.

 

I freeze too, and I do have residual Christian brainwashing to thank for that as well. Help myself? What? That would be selfish. I'm supposed to help others, not MY worthless sinful ass, whom God won't even love enough to answer.

 

Christianity. A mindfuck that lasts a lifetime.

 

Of course, I have found that the further I get from said brainwashing, and the more I work on things, the less this happens.

[BeccasStillSeeking]

I'm not so sure it's as easy as seperating cultural influence from religion. I know very much how little girls are given "damsel in distress" training in culture.

 

But why?

 

I have a hard time imagining one of the old goddess worshipping cultures, celebrating the feminine divine (giving women power) having a "damsel in distress" culture training for their young women.

 

Trying to seperate religion and culture, and the effects they have on each other makes little sense to me. Same will assigning blame and innocence for social issues. Religion cannot be innocent of effecting culture. It is a major influence. Culture cannot be exempt from effecting religion either, that's why our holidays are the way they are and when they are.

 

So religion is not blameless in this matter. It is a part of our culture, and is as much accountable for creating victims as poverty and drug abuse.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Considering that Christianity has had a tremendous amount of influence on Western culture, its damaging effects are seen in cultural indoctrination as well as religious. And in my case, Christianity was ONE HUNDRED PERCENT the reason I didn't fight back against my abusers.

[BeccasStillSeeking]

Yeah, YHWH is going to annihilate you Christians and any other heathens that don't recognize him.  Oh, no wait, it's Allah!  No, Zoroaster!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I think it's Holly from Red Dwarf.

 

"Wassup dudes!"

 

[Mad_Gerbil]

Not so far off from the OT laws, Mad Gerbil, I suppose you haven't taken a good look at have you?  You dare call the JW's wrong when it is OT law?

Would you like me to list a whole bunch of other disgusting and humiliating and abusive laws in the bible Mad Gerbil or would you like to quit before I give you more?  How about the law in the OT where god makes the rapist marry the victim, hmmm?  How about the law where if you beat a slave but they recover in 3 days there is not punishment?  Shall I continue?  The bible is promotes abuse, there are no if's, and's or but's about it.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Serenity,

There are thoughtful discussions of those passages available all over the place online. I invite you to look up those answers for yourself.

 

-MG

[BeccasStillSeeking]

I already know the answers MG, no amount of apologetics can take away from what those scriptures promote... they are horrible and monstrous and disgusting.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Notice how he completely sideswiped your above point. "Oh God, she's got me backed into a corner intellectually. My only recourse is to...to...to...IGNORE WHAT SHE'S SAYING! That's it!"

[Mad_Gerbil]

I already know the answers MG, no amount of apologetics can take away from what those scriptures promote... they are horrible and monstrous and disgusting.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Oh.

 

Well if you already know why don't you share the most reasonable apologetic you've found for the the cited verses -- even though you may think it unreasonable, which one is the best of the bad apologetics?

[BeccasStillSeeking]

Oh.

 

Well if you already know why don't you share the most reasonable apologetic you've found for the the cited verses -- even though you may think it unreasonable, which one is the best of the bad apologetics?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Why should she do your work for you, you lazy bum?

 

And you still owe me an apology.

[Vixentrox]

White Raven:

 

While I'm certainly not an expert, I think it is characteristic of all children (despite religious training) to not defend him/herself against an abuser because children are afraid of opposing authority.  It is my understanding that is why child molestors so often get away with it.

 

Bad religious training, and the criticism thereof, certainly has a place but in this case I cannot help but feel that it is in the nature of children to 'not cry out' -- the fear of the adult is what allows it to happen and the idea that something embarrassing and dirty is going on and that it should be hidden.

 

That is what I've always been told anyways.

 

Incidently, the molesting of children is one thing that I think warrants the death penalty since it is almost always a serial crime.  The ease at which people can get away with it is shocking and these stupid cases where a person gets away with it to go on and do it another 100 times needs to stop.

 

I've got two young daughters.

Put the molestors in the ground and give a kid a break already.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

The holy spirit raped the young virgin Mary. Put your Holy spook to death.

[Alice]

... I wouldn't say religion results in abuse but instead some religion is itself a form of abuse that allows for other forms of abuse.

 

For example, Jehovah's Witnesses used to teach that if a woman didn't scream while being raped that she was sinning sexually.  So if a guy held a gun and told you to shaddup and submit or die and you submitted to save your life then it wouldn't be 'rape' according the them.

 

So reading that some would say the religion leads to abuse whereas I'd push it back one step further and say the religion itself is abuse as well as the resulting idiocy.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

Serenity,

There are thoughtful discussions of those passages available all over the place online.  I invite you to look up those answers for yourself.

 

-MG

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

MG ~ can't you see what you did here? You claimed that the teaching 'that if a woman didn't scream then a rape isn't a rape' was an abusive idiocy, and was not only an abuse resulting from a religion but that the religion that taught such a terrible thing was an abuse in and of itself.

 

That was when you thought this abusive idiocy was a teaching thought up by the JW's.

 

SerenityNow points out that it comes straight from your Bible ... and suddenly you go all coy and dismissive and suggest she seek out an apolgetic excuse for the teaching you moments before identified as an abusive idocy belonging to a religion that was an abuse in and of itself.

 

The moment of clarity that you had when you expressed your original view was a precious insight. What a shame you immediately buried it in a pile of denial as soon as you realised it was a teaching straight from your word of God.

[Mad_Gerbil]

MG ~ can't you see what you did here?  You claimed that the teaching 'that if a woman didn't scream then a rape isn't a rape' was an abusive idiocy, and was not only an abuse resulting from a religion but that the religion that taught such a terrible thing was an abuse in and of itself.

 

That was when you thought this abusive idiocy was a teaching thought up by the JW's.

 

SerenityNow points out that it comes straight from your Bible ... and suddenly you go all coy and dismissive and suggest she seek out an apolgetic excuse for the teaching you moments before identified as an abusive idocy belonging to a religion that was an abuse in and of itself.

 

The moment of clarity that you had when you expressed your original view was a precious insight.  What a shame you immediately buried it in a pile of denial as soon as you realised it was a teaching straight from your word of God.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I invited her to think about the passage more than the idiotic JWs thought about it.

 

There is no denial here -- there are definitely some OT customs/commands that make us squirm in the here and now -- however, if you put yourself in the shoes of each and every person faced with dealing with this situation I think it will become much more clear.

 

One approach you might find helpful is to come up with your own rape law that is fair to men and woman in the situation described in that passage at that time. I challenge you to come up with something more fair than that passage describes.

[Alice]

I invited her to think about the passage more than the idiotic JWs thought about it.

 

There is no denial here -- there are definitely some OT customs/commands that make us squirm in the here and now -- however, if you put yourself in the shoes of each and every person faced with dealing with this situation I think it will become much more clear.

 

One approach you might find helpful is to come up with your own rape law that is fair to men and woman in the situation described in that passage at that time.  I challenge you to come up with something more fair than that passage describes.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Sure ~ the original says ...

 

Deuteronomy 22:23-24

23 If a man happens to meet in a town a virgin pledged to be married and he sleeps with her, 24 you shall take both of them to the gate of that town and stone them to death—the girl because she was in a town and did not scream for help, and the man because he violated another man's wife. You must purge the evil from among you.

 

Off the top of my head I'd suggest an alternative along the lines of ...

 

Sensibleonomy 22:23-24

 

23. If a man happens to meet in a town a virgin pledged to be married and they decide to have sex it is essential that they both remember the following: Sex is to be consensual. They must discuss their expectations and the consequences of entering a sexual relationship together. I am God and these are my words, a person who is physically stronger must never force another into any sexual act. Rape is a deplorable act and will provoke my anger.

 

24. However I know that not every one will follow my command for there is evil amoung you (the reasons for this are another consideration) so this is my command ~ A man convicted of Rape should be sentenced to a term of imprisonment and be required to attend a sex offenders programme. I am God and I know the propensisty of the human heart for lies. There will be occasions when false allegations of rape are made (especially whilst you persist in the ridiculous and evil practice of stoning couples who have engaged in consensual premarital sex) therefore in such circumstances the accounts of the man and woman should be weighed by a group of their peers to determine if coercion and force was used.

 

MG ~ are you not perterbed that the wise words in your word of God would cause you to cringe (the reaction others feel is perhaps rather a stronger one than 'cringing')

 

What does this mean? That somehow you've advanced beyond the advice God used to give? If this is the case, why doesn't God come clean and say 'sorry chaps - please ignore the stuff I used to come out with, please excuse me, after all I'm just a G.I.P ...'

[Checkmate]

I invited her to think about the passage more than the idiotic JWs thought about it.

.................

Stop, halt, cease, desist, wait, freeze right there, gopher! "The IDIOTIC JW"? Sounds like a "judgment" to me. Sounds like YOU, Mad_Gerbil, just called someone "fool". And what does your bible say about this?

 

Also, what makes YOU so certain that YOUR religious superstitions are "true", while the Jehovah's Witnesses are "false"? It is my understanding that they use bibles and believe in God and Jesus also. Granted, they believe differently than do you. But what makes you so certain that THEY are "idiots", whereas YOU have got it "right"?

 

You have "faith"? Well, so do they. You've studied? Well, so have they. You've been taught? Well, so have they.

 

How can you be so arrogant as to call someone else's religious beliefs "idiocy", while you expect us here at Ex-C to treat YOUR religion with respect?

 

And WHY can't you see that for the SAME reason that YOU reject and scoff at the "idiotic JW", WE reject and scoff at YOUR "idiotic" religion? It is NO different!