Molding Victims?

[crazy-tiger]

If my memory is correct, their hands are tied beneath the sheet. Then, they're burried in the ground up to their waist or shoulders (depending on the gender), and if they can untie themselves, free themselves from the sheet and the hole, and make it out of the circle of people throwing stones, they get to go free.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Neck or shoulders... shoulders for the female since they're usually weaker.

 

Be honest though... what are the chances of anyone getting out of a hole in the ground, one that they've been buried in so there's almost no lee-way, out of the bag and outside the circle before the crowd has killed them?

 

 

 

Stoning is a painful, prolonged and inescapable death that no crime deserves as punishment.

[Fweethawt]

No, see, Fwee, that line of thinking only applies to strangers. It would be utterly unthinkable for a good, God-ph34ring Christian to allow their own blood kin to suffer like that!

Oh, you're so right! I forgot! Sweet Sweet Jesus™ did all of their suffering for them. To Hell with everyone else.

[Fweethawt]

Neck or shoulders... shoulders for the female since they're usually weaker.

 

Be honest though... what are the chances of anyone getting out of a hole in the ground, one that they've been buried in so there's almost no lee-way, out of the bag and outside the circle before the crowd has killed them?

Stoning is a painful, prolonged and inescapable death that no crime deserves as punishment.

 

Be honest?? Huh?

 

Oh, I see...

 

You thought that I believed that they had a snowball's chance in hell of getting out of that because of the way I worded it. Sorry 'bout that.

 

I was meaning to point out the absurdity (read - impossibility) in what the "criminal" has to do in order to keep from being stoned to death.

[Mythra]

Joshua 7:24

 

Then Joshua, together with all Israel, took Achan son of Zerah, the silver the robe, the gold wedge, his sons and daughters, his cattle, donkeys and sheep, his tent and all that he had, to the Valley of Achor. Joshua said "why have you brought this trouble on us? The Lord will bring trouble on you today."

 

Then all Israel stoned him, and after they had stoned the rest, they burned them. Over Achan they heaped up a large pile of rocks, which remains to this day. Then the LORD turned from his fierce anger.

 

Mad Gerbil: what kind of a person advocates the death penalty for child molesters, yet worships a deity who would be satiated by the stoning of innocent children?

 

The only thing these children did wrong was to have a father who could not resist temptation.

 

Yet, the God that you fawn over would not be satisfied until he saw these children slaughtered by flying rocks.

 

God deserves the death penalty in my book.

[crazy-tiger]

Be honest?? Huh?

 

Oh, I see...

 

You thought that I believed that they had a snowball's chance in hell of getting out of that because of the way I worded it. Sorry 'bout that. 

Nope... was just being rhetorical.

I was meaning to point out the absurdity (read - impossibility) in what the "criminal" has to do in order to keep from being stoned to death.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

So was I...

 

 

 

 

Still... it's not a harsh punishment, is it?

[The Silent One]

You cannot seperate the beliefs of the JW's from the carnage those beliefs create.

 

If I might be so bold: You didn't leave the JW's because you failed -- you left because you did it all and it killed you in the process -- because that carnage is the result of that kind of abuse.  Their belief system is the posion, and the carnage is the result.

 

Their beliefs are toxic mind rot that places people on a treadmill that keeps turning up the speed until the victim dies of exhaustion.  The resulting death is tired directly to the 'carrot on a stick' approach to G_d.

 

Unless you can demonstrate that the 'belief system' is somehow seperate from the 'carnage' then I'll say they are two sides of the same coin -- unless I completely misunderstood you.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I'd say something similiar about ALL Christian faiths. JW and otherwise., to single them out as such shows you as the hypocrite you are. I left the Witnesses because I realized that the whole bible/Christian god thing is a load of bullshit, don't make assumptions about why did or didn't leave. I got to a point where I was fed up with the system, and took a step away from the whole thing to review everything unbiasedly, THAT'S when I left, and that's WHY I left.

 

I'm sick of your assertations Gerbil, back up your claims about Witnesses beliefs.

[Asuryan]

Discussions in another thread got me thinking this morning, and I realized something.

 

While I had no trouble at all facing down people who were bullying, abusing, or scaring my friends.......I seemed to have a blocker when it came to helping MYSELF.

 

Thoughts?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Well, I'll share my experiences too.

As some of you may or may not know, I have been raped when I was ten: there have been some secondary experiences before and after that, such as dirty old men touching and grabbing before I managed to ran away (this kind of people is, to say the truth, very tolerated in a little provincial town as mine is), but they pale in comparison to a real rape, so I won't deal with them on this post.

 

Before then, I was a devout catholic. Very devout. I went to a kindergarten run by nuns, dreamed of becoming an altar girl, I prayed every morning and every night before turning the lights off, in sunday school (catechism here) I learned all sort of stories about god as a deus ex machina. Again, god saves the day! Ah, the beauties of turning the other cheek, of having jesus as your friend, blah blah.

 

What I think saved me was direct observation of the other kids of my same age. They came to sunday school, as ALL (and I say, ALL) kids of my town did, they listened as I did, they prayed as I did, they ate the holy wafer as I did, and so on.

But once they were outside sunday school, or outside the church, or outside the kindergarten, it was pure bullyism from their part. They were saved? They ate that shitty wafer and they were saved and purified, even if they made life miserable for some poor child? If some of you have ever been bullied, for years at end, you know how it feels.

 

I started helping bullied children at 4 yrs old, well before going to sunday school, but not before having been exposed to nice little stories with Powerpuff God as the sole protagonist from the kindergarten nuns. What strikes me even now as both odd and obvious, is that faith, jesus, god, were never, have never been, a reason for me to go and try and help others, as apparently that same faith was never a reason for those catholic, sunday school attending bullies to stop bullying and mobbing weaker children.

I helped, or tried to help, because I felt enraged every time I saw a kid being bullied or hit, and just felt I *had* to do something. Anything. My motivations for it were totally removed from faith and god: god was in church and sunday school and in prayers before sleeping. He had nothing to do with those fights.

 

I started at 4 yrs old. One of my friends had just had her doll stolen by a group of 5 yrs old male bullies. She cried and sobbed, and I am standing near her, then I am walking toward the bullies and say "give her doll back." They hitted me a lot, and hard. My mother still remembers that day as "the first day I started coming back from kindergarten with my nice white uniform stained with my own blood". No tears though. Of course they didn't give the doll back, they gave me a beating and kept the doll, but the gratitude I saw in the eyes of my friend when she saw me standing to them when no one else dared to was payment enough for it. Even in the following days, and weeks, and months, and years, every time that I thought about it, that "turn the other cheek" and "wait for god to help you" stuff never came to my mind. It was, simply, something entirely "else" from what I experienced In real life.

Maybe this was also because the nuns were simply observing, they never made a single move (of course the bullies had their "little base" in a rather secluded point of the gamefield, inside a little colorful house that was originally meant for the girls to play together acting like "mums") to stop or discourage them.

 

That beatings happened more and more, as I never pleaded them to leave me alone, or asked for forgiveness, or stopped protecting my friends or even babies I didn't know. My mom says she was desperate, because I kept coming back home with blood on my face, and bruises a bit everywhere. I didn't care though.

Meanwhile, I grew up big and strong (for a child my age), also thanks to an intensive swimming training that built up my arms, shoulders and other muscles. Soon I was standing up to bullies, while in elementary school, and managing to win every fight I got myself into. Another thing that my mom tells me, is that one day a woman of our neighborhood knocked at her door, and with tears in her eyes thanked her, because "your daughter has protected my son from a group of boys that were pushing him around and making fun of it" and so on. That kid had glasses, and a sickly complexion and constitution, so he was one of the favourite targets of the bullies. Again, no christ around my head before, during, or after the fact: I just got enraged seeing them treating him like that, and him trying to hide his tears from them. I asked them to stop, they didn't, I said if they didn't stop I would've made them stop, they tried to hit me, I hitted back... they never approached that kid again, although I did have bruises and deep scratches on my arms, cheeks, knees and ribcage.

 

In fact, I think that if someone has inside him or herself the justice sense (yep, Justice, all right) to feel furious when someone else is unjustfully mistreated, when a kid is mobbed by other kids just for being different, or a dark-skinned person treated with utter and evident contempt just for his/her skin color, you don't need to believe that powerpuff jesus is using you to do something good. You will do that anyway, no matter your beliefs. Honey, I think that you would've helped people even if you had been an atheist from the very beginning right until now, because you simply wouldn't have been able to stand it.

 

However, I too froze when I was raped. Just stood there. Couldn't move. Couldn't run away, couldn't even scream, could barely talk with my parents about that (and then they told me to shut my mouth about the whole issue and just "avoid that guy if I saw him again"). But it wasn't because I was secretly hoping for a god send hero to save me: I knew that the place was too secluded for someone to come, especially if I didn't scream (but nonetheless I didn't scream just the same!).

I don't think it has necessarily something to do with jesus and christianity (although I agree with you completely about the fact that christianity isn't helping at all, surely it doesn't encourage you to fight back, especially if you are a woman). I think it's something similar to the way deers (who we know are utterly heathen animals) froze right in the middle of a road when a car is about to crash on them: utter shock, something totally unexpected, for which the brain has got no answers, or defenses ready. Deers can't stop looking inside those car lights, even if a single jump could bring them away from the road and on to safety. I couldn't bring myself to scream, or fight back, or do something that wasn't quivering and whimpering and sobbing.

 

My conclusions: christianity doesn't help at all, but I don't think that it is the primary cause of neither the freezing nor the helping others instinct. I'd wager, as there are and were wayyy too many christians that do mobbing and are aggressive and burn heretics and enjoy torture and so on... that it should disprove the theory from a statistic point of view.

 

Hugs & Kisses!

[Mad_Gerbil]

I'm sick of your assertations Gerbil, back up your claims about Witnesses beliefs.

 

I'm not entirely sure why you are angry with me on this issue. You claimed that you grew frustrated with the organization -- and I agree with you to the extent that had I been a JW I would have fallen out just like you did.

 

I would be grateful if you shared why you were frustrated -- I could be wrong, but my guess is that you experienced what I did, namely, despite your best efforts you were never good enough.

 

I'm not just picking on the JWs because in my estimation any organization that puts people on that treadmill is EVIL. The only reason the JWs came up specifically is because of the misuse of that specific passage of scripture about rape.

 

In short, so you were a JW -- so you bought a line of bull hook line and sinker.

Again, I welcome you to the club.

I did the exact same thing.

[Mad_Gerbil]

Hugs & Kisses!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I always suprised at how many people have been raped.

I had a girl I worked with that had a couple of attempts on her while in college.

It is something I will be speaking to my girls about -- in detail.

 

I tell them that if anyone touches them in a way they don't wanna be touched they are free to scream, run, bite, kick, hit and break things and that no matter who it is that touched them that mommy and daddy will take their side -- that in protecting themselves they can do no wrong.

 

While I know it doesn't take away what you and others have been through here I hope you can take some comfort in the fact that I share what women say here with my kids (on some level).

[Vixentrox]

Then be sure to offer to sell them for marriage to thier rapist after for a few dollars. After all, that's what a good christian should do becuase that's what god approved of.

[Mad_Gerbil]

Then be sure to offer to sell them for marriage to thier rapist after for a few dollars.  After all, that's what a good christian should do becuase that's what god approved of.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

If that is what you have to believe to sheild yourself, fine.

Don't expect anyone else who actually takes the time to study the passage to take you seriously.

[The Silent One]

I'm not entirely sure why you are angry with me on this issue.  You claimed that you grew frustrated with the organization -- and I agree with you to the extent that had I been a JW I would have fallen out just like you did.

 

I would be grateful if you shared why you were frustrated -- I could be wrong, but my guess is that you experienced what I did, namely, despite your best efforts you were never good enough.

 

I'm not just picking on the JWs because in my estimation any organization that puts people on that treadmill is EVIL.  The only reason the JWs came up specifically is because of the misuse of that specific passage of scripture about rape.

 

In short, so you were a JW -- so you bought a line of bull hook line and sinker.

Again, I welcome you to the club.

I did the exact same thing.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Why am I angry at you? Because as much as I dislike Witnesses, I dislike dishonesty more. You're asserting that they're somehow worse than other groups, that they'er using a carrot/treadmill style method. I'd like to see your evidence to back this up.

[Vixentrox]

If that is what you have to believe to sheild yourself, fine.

Don't expect anyone else who actually takes the time to study the passage to take you seriously.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Your bible, black and white.

[Mad_Gerbil]

Why am I angry at you? Because as much as I dislike Witnesses, I dislike dishonesty more. You're asserting that they're somehow worse than other groups, that they'er using a carrot/treadmill style method. I'd like to see your evidence to back this up.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Okay, I think I understand.

 

The reason the JWs came up specifically is because of the rape text. If you'd like I could get a reference to their materials that shows what they said about rape at one time. I'm not aware of any other group that has that kind of a ridiculous standard -- so that is why they were mentioned specifically. (I believe this policy has been recinded, btw).

 

It isn't my claim that they use the carrot/treadmill approach exclusively, but rather that they and any group that uses that method is evil. They aren't any worse than Mormons, several branches of Protestantism, much of Catholocism and most other religion in one sense or another.

 

Moving onto the carrot/treadmill approach are you denying they use such a method or are you just upset that it looked as if I was claiming they are the only ones that do this?

 

For the record, I was in a Baptist church that was using that method....

[Mad_Gerbil]

Your bible, black and white.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

If you'd care to start another thread on the topic and post the passage that you think is so black and white I'll comment on it when I get time.

[Vixentrox]

It's already been talked about at length on these forums.

[Mad_Gerbil]

It's already been talked about at length on these forums.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Agreed.

[crazy-tiger]

I'm not entirely sure why you are angry with me on this issue.  You claimed that you grew frustrated with the organization -- and I agree with you to the extent that had I been a JW I would have fallen out just like you did.

 

I would be grateful if you shared why you were frustrated -- I could be wrong, but my guess is that you experienced what I did, namely, despite your best efforts you were never good enough.

That, in a nutshell, is Christianity...

I'm not just picking on the JWs because in my estimation any organization that puts people on that treadmill is EVIL.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I am extremely glad that we agree on this.

[crazy-tiger]

Why am I angry at you? Because as much as I dislike Witnesses, I dislike dishonesty more. You're asserting that they're somehow worse than other groups, that they'er using a carrot/treadmill style method. I'd like to see your evidence to back this up.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Well, in a way he's right... they do use a carrot/treadmill method.

 

 

 

 

 

Then again, ALL of Christianity uses that method...

[The Silent One]

Well, in a way he's right... they do use a carrot/treadmill method.

Then again, ALL of Christianity uses that method...

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

That's mainly why I'm upset, he seemed to be singling out witnesses, with comments like this:

 

I've studied the JW faith and I"ve had a debate with a JW elder that I soundly won and left him speechless. I do think I know something of that which I speak - the JWs are an incredibly cruel, heartless, and mean spirited organization.

 

Individuals are fine -- but the organization itself is straight outta the pit of hell.

 

And that's what I'd like his evidence of, that the organization is more cruel, heartless and mean spirited than any other christian group.

[Guest Guest_serenitynow_*]

That's mainly why I'm upset, he seemed to be singling out witnesses, with comments like this:

And that's what I'd like his evidence of, that the organization is more cruel, heartless and mean spirited than any other christian group.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Actually, IMHO, any Sect of Christianity (not ALL BELIEVERS in even in those sects) that teaches eternal torture is more evil than the groups, i.e.; Jehovah Witnesses, Church of God, etc. that don't. Anyone who thinks it is just to eternally torture someone for something as simple as unbelief to the extremes of genocide, murder, rape is in an EVIL sect of Christianity. Eternal hell is a heartless, mean-spirited and cruel doctrine.

[Mad_Gerbil]

That's mainly why I'm upset, he seemed to be singling out witnesses, with comments like this:

And that's what I'd like his evidence of, that the organization is more cruel, heartless and mean spirited than any other christian group.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I clearly said that any organization that puts people on that treadmill is cruel, heartless, and mean spirited

 

I then explained to you why the JWs, in particular, came up.

[LadyFeline]

If that is what you have to believe to sheild yourself, fine.

Don't expect anyone else who actually takes the time to study the passage to take you seriously.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Let's see what we've got here... What should the good Biblical Literalist do in the case of rape...

 

Deut 22:23 If a damsel that is a virgin be betrothed unto an husband, and a man find her in the city, and lie with her; 24 Then ye shall bring them both out unto the gate of that city, and ye shall stone them with stones that they die; the damsel, because she cried not, being in the city; and the man, because he hath humbled his neighbour's wife: so thou shalt put away evil from among you. 25 But if a man find a betrothed damsel in the field, and the man force her, and lie with her: then the man only that lay with her shall die. 26 But unto the damsel thou shalt do nothing; there is in the damsel no sin worthy of death: for as when a man riseth against his neighbour, and slayeth him, even so is this matter: 27 For he found her in the field, and the betrothed damsel cried, and there was none to save her. 28 If a man find a damsel that is a virgin, which is not betrothed, and lay hold on her, and lie with her, and they be found; 29 Then the man that lay with her shall give unto the damsel's father fifty shekels of silver, and she shall be his wife; because he hath humbled her, he may not put her away all his days.

 

If your daughter is engaged, and then raped in the city, then you need to take her out and execute her since, because she was raped, she obviously didn't scream loud enough for anyone to hear and come help her.

 

Now, if she's engaged, and raped outside the city, in a more rural setting, then she's safe.

 

Maybe you should move out to the country, Gerbil. Just in case.

 

However, if she's not engaged, then you need to have her marry her rapist, fine him a couple hundred dollars, and forbid them from ever divorcing. The Bible's pretty clear about that.

[Guest vanesa]

Jehovah's Witnesses, indeed. Bunch of weirdos who run around in silly buildings grunting and burping about spirits and goblins and lions and tigers and so on......

 

Thank God I wasn't indoctrinated with Xtian BS, although I love listening to all of you fight back and forth with your Xtian pals. Makes for good entertainment.

[LadyFeline]

I always suprised at how many people have been raped.

I had a girl I worked with that had a couple of attempts on her while in college.

It is something I will be speaking to my girls about -- in detail.

 

I tell them that if anyone touches them in a way they don't wanna be touched they are free to scream, run, bite, kick, hit and break things and that no matter who it is that touched them that mommy and daddy will take their side -- that in protecting themselves they can do no wrong.

 

While I know it doesn't take away what you and others have been through here I hope you can take some comfort in the fact that I share what women say here with my kids (on some level).

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Yet, should your daughters ever suffer the violation of being raped, you would never dare use that whole "The suffering is good for you, it helps you mature and builds character. You'll learn from it and be a better person." crap schpiel.

 

Because, you know, that's cruel and insensitive.