All Gods Fail Posted November 9, 2005 Share Posted November 9, 2005 I haven't read the book by Robert Ericksen, but I just saw the documentary by Rev. Steven D. Martin about the way the German protestant churches dealt with the Nazi philosophy in the WWII era. Amazing - it gave me a piece of the puzzle (of how a nation could embark on such an evil agenda) that I hadn't considered before. The Nazis were given spiritual legitimacy by some of it's leading theoligans: Kittel, Althaus and Hirsch. Kittel is especially reprehensible for his very specific polemics about the 'Jewish problem'. It was a primary force for the justification of the Final Solution, and was preached by pastors in the churches. So next time a xtian accuses you of being like a 'godless' Nazi, tell him to read up on Gerhard Kittel. It burns me up to think that fucker only got a 1.5 year prison sentence for complicity - he should have been hung. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
All Gods Fail Posted November 9, 2005 Author Share Posted November 9, 2005 Wow - nobody has anything to say about this? Is it old news? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ouroboros Posted November 9, 2005 Share Posted November 9, 2005 I would say yes and no. We kind of knew from earlier debates that Hitler wasn't a real atheist. But you complemented the information with both a book, documentary and some names, which is good to remember. Do you know the name of Ericksen's book? Maybe someone should read it (maybe even you ) and give a little piece of input under the Critics Corner. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thurisaz Posted November 9, 2005 Share Posted November 9, 2005 So next time a xtian accuses you of being like a 'godless' Nazi, tell him to read up on Gerhard Kittel. It burns me up to think that fucker only got a 1.5 year prison sentence for complicity - he should have been hung. Unfortunately the images won't load currently, or else I'd have inserted a link to a genuine nazi propaganda poster that shows an SA trooper side by side with a knight bearing a christian cross on his armor fighting the dragon which symbolizes the red/jewish menace... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
All Gods Fail Posted November 9, 2005 Author Share Posted November 9, 2005 I would say yes and no. We kind of knew from earlier debates that Hitler wasn't a real atheist. But you complemented the information with both a book, documentary and some names, which is good to remember. Do you know the name of Ericksen's book? Maybe someone should read it (maybe even you ) and give a little piece of input under the Critics Corner. 104122[/snapback] The book is the same name - Theologians Under Hitler. And I definitely plan on picking it up when I can scrape together a few extra bucks. Here's some links: The book. The documentary. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
All Gods Fail Posted November 9, 2005 Author Share Posted November 9, 2005 Unfortunately the images won't load currently, or else I'd have inserted a link to a genuine nazi propaganda poster that shows an SA trooper side by side with a knight bearing a christian cross on his armor fighting the dragon which symbolizes the red/jewish menace... 104166[/snapback] I honestly think that is the key to understanding the Holocaust - if the xtian church and theologians had refused to give the Nazis spiritual justification and condemned their beliefs instead, I think it would have been much more difficult (or impossible) getting tacit support from the common folk for the 'Final Solution'. Of course, they really just built upon the foundation Martin Luther had laid centuries before. One of these days I'm going to dig up Luther's corpse and piss on it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JeffXL Posted November 10, 2005 Share Posted November 10, 2005 I, too, am sick and tired of the "atheist Hitler" myth. Thanks for the links! Looking forward to reading it! A quick introduction I've sent to those who lie about the Nazis can be found at: http://www.nobeliefs.com/Hitler1.htm Quite handy! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SkepticOfBible Posted November 10, 2005 Share Posted November 10, 2005 Let's not forget the great Martin Luther himself. It was in his honor KyrstalNacht was celebrated. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amanda Posted November 10, 2005 Share Posted November 10, 2005 I was surprised to learn just within the last few months that Hitler was not an Atheist, but professed to be a Christian! Wow! I'm curious to know how someone could claim to be a Christian and hate the Jews. Even if someone says it's because the Jews killed Jesus... well, Jesus was a Jew too! Does anyone know Hitler's reasoning behind genocide of the Jews, AND claiming to be a Christian... which would make his God a Jew? Further, I heard that Hitler was suspected to have a brain tumor... any truth to that? Thanks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mythra Posted November 10, 2005 Share Posted November 10, 2005 This is an interesting article. Also from nobeliefs.com. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SkepticOfBible Posted November 10, 2005 Share Posted November 10, 2005 I was surprised to learn just within the last few months that Hitler was not an Atheist, but professed to be a Christian! Wow! 104519[/snapback] I think Hitler wanted to create his own religion out of christianity. I'm curious to know how someone could claim to be a Christian and hate the Jews. Even if someone says it's because the Jews killed Jesus... well, Jesus was a Jew too! Funny thing is, that concept comes from the bible The SAB has a good list http://www.religioustolerance.org/anse_bibl.htm Does anyone know Hitler's reasoning behind genocide of the Jews. Mein Kampf would be a good start. http://www.nobeliefs.com/Hitler1.htm Hitlers Inspiration from Martin Luther Anti Semitatic Material from Nazi Propanganda Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
seeker Posted November 10, 2005 Share Posted November 10, 2005 I was surprised to learn just within the last few months that Hitler was not an Atheist, but professed to be a Christian! Wow! I'm curious to know how someone could claim to be a Christian and hate the Jews. Even if someone says it's because the Jews killed Jesus... well, Jesus was a Jew too! Does anyone know Hitler's reasoning behind genocide of the Jews, AND claiming to be a Christian... which would make his God a Jew? Further, I heard that Hitler was suspected to have a brain tumor... any truth to that? Thanks. 104519[/snapback] I thought the reason Hitler wanted to kill all the Jews was because he believed they killed Jesus and deamed them unworthy. I'll look it up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eponymic Posted November 10, 2005 Share Posted November 10, 2005 Gotta love those Christians! Responsible for 80 to 90% of all wars since 450 AD. (And I'm probably being generous in my estimation.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
godlessgrrl Posted November 10, 2005 Share Posted November 10, 2005 I thought the reason Hitler wanted to kill all the Jews was because he was a psycho fuckwad. But I'll acknowledge that the historical explanations are a little more complex than that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
All Gods Fail Posted November 10, 2005 Author Share Posted November 10, 2005 I thought the reason Hitler wanted to kill all the Jews was because he was a psycho fuckwad. But I'll acknowledge that the historical explanations are a little more complex than that. 104586[/snapback] Sure, he was that, too. But the idea of theologians and churches jumping on the Nazi dogpile is just stunning to me. If they'd stood up for their faith like martyrs and told Hitler to go to hell, I wonder what would've happened? If the Nazis started persecuting pastors and church leaders, I doubt they would've gotten much public support. Might've even led to open rebellion. Who knows? Genocide as christian duty...of course, now that i think about it I guess it's not such a leap after all. That batshit book they quote all the time has plenty of crimes against humanity sanctioned by god. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Casey Posted November 10, 2005 Share Posted November 10, 2005 Here is a slightly different viewpoint. The Nazis, like the Communists, were a revolutionary political party. I suppose you could say the difference between democratic and revolutionary politics boils down to this: in a democracy the State now and then likes to play god. Under revolutionary politics the State believes it IS god, and by god if the average citizen wants to live to grow old, he had better believe it too. Very well, the Communists said, "There is no god", and maintained that harsh, strictly enforced Marxist-Leninist position until late 1941 when the Germans threatened Moscow. After that they permitted a few churches to re-open; if pandering to popular superstition would raise morale, that wouldn't cost 'em much, would it? Lest it look like it might, well, that is why they like the Germans, kept a secret police. It is to be noted that Red Army Officers the next year I think it was, were allowed to wear their traditional (Czarist) Rank Badges once more, and the influence of Politruks (Commissars) was diminished. It had by now become clear to the Soviets that their attempt to reduce everyone to the same level had produced a dismal failure. In Germany, the Nazis took the view that if most people were nominally christian (which at that time most Germans were), they would look upon that as a harmless bit of folklore. (They went rather a lot on folklore). They'd regard it as folklore however, only as long as the god worshipped supported Nazi ideals. They modified christianity to this end by substituting Hitler in children's prayers, insisting that christ was an Aryan rather than a Jew and last but not least, basing the SS on the catholic jesuit order. Hitler was heard to say privately Being weighed down by a superstitious past, men are afraid of things that can't, or can't yet, be explained-that is to say, of the unknown. If anyone has needs of a metaphysical nature, I can't satisfy them with the Party's programme. Time will go by until the moment when science can answer all the questions. Thus while the churches were still useful, why not make use of them? To do so would be to make use of practical, cynical politics, and the Nazis were past masters at that art. It was however intended that Nazism should replace christianity by a belief system which would combine pagan beliefs and ancestor worship. That was why Himmler rented this place for a peppercorn rent of 1 Mark per year: http://www.wwiirelics.com/wevelsburg.htm Here, according to a website with occult leanings, is a picture essay on how he wished to use it: http://www.livingstonemusic.net/hitlerandtheoccult.htm I've no doubt our resident skeptics will cram their tinfoil hats on a little tighter when they read some of the views expressed there, but that is as good an explanation as any. Lastly, if anyone has the time, this article is well worth the reading: http://www.forteantimes.com/articles/196_himmler1.shtml You will need to register to read the full article but registration is free. This is not a tinfoil-hat site; Fortean Times is a respected magazine which covers out-of-the-ordinary places and phenomena. It has done so and continues to do so, in a sane and rational manner. In conclusion, my own personal belief is that Hitler was neither a christian nor an atheist. Certainly he made use of christian theologians such as those mentioned, particularly Luther, but only when it suited his purposes. A master politician, which Hitler was, is a cynical realist and a master manipulator of his public. As such he will make use of whatever belief system suits him, as Hitler did. However to make use of a belief system is not the same as being a believer, is it? I can think of a number of present-day US politicians who are loud in their publically professed christian beliefs, but whose private lives have shown them up for what they really are, cynical users and abusers of trusting christians if not outright hypocrites as well. The same could also be said of a number of well-known American preachers. On the other hand, Hitler can't be dismissed as an atheist of the Marxist-Leninist variety either; as such he would have forbidden all forms of worship. Since Soviet Communism had existed since 1917, one might presume Hitler had taken notice of its strengths and weaknesses. He wouldn't have failed to have noticed the weakness caused by forbidding religious worship, any more than he would have failed to notice the weakness caused by "democratising" the Red Army. Certainly he publically professed a pathological hatred of Communism but then, "No one is more critical of you than your closest relative". Both Nazism and Communism were extreme brands of Socialism; it was simply that Hitler believed his version to be the best. It would of course have been far better for humanity if both inhuman systems had perished in the same gutter whence they came, but that alas was not to be. Casey Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amanda Posted November 10, 2005 Share Posted November 10, 2005 Does anyone know Hitler's reasoning behind genocide of the Jews. Mein Kampf would be a good start. http://www.nobeliefs.com/Hitler1.htm 104529[/snapback] Wow Pritish! Is that all you do... study your whole life? These informational sites are remarkable! Thank you! The one above is particularly interesting. It seems the rationality for the genocide, according to the site, was revealed in this quote from Hitler: In boundless love as a Christian and as a man I read through the passage which tells us how the Lord at last rose in His might and seized the scourge to drive out of the Temple the brood of vipers and adders. How terrific was His fight for the world against the Jewish poison. To-day, after two thousand years, with deepest emotion I recognize more profoundly than ever before in the fact that it was for this that He had to shed His blood upon the Cross. As a Christian I have no duty to allow myself to be cheated, but I have the duty to be a fighter for truth and justice.... Now, I had to think right away... hey, Jesus was a Jew... AND according to the site, the information Hitler was basing everything on was supposedly written by Jews! But, Hitler seems to claim the Jews condemned themselves by their own OT law! I have written such articles again and again; and in my articles I have repeatedly emphasized the fact that the Jews should serve as an example to every race, for they created the racial law for themselves-- the law of Moses, which says, 'If you come into a foreign land you shall not take unto yourself foreign women.' And that, Gentlemen, is of tremendous importance in judging the Nuremberg Laws.. Yet, Hitler did claim to be a Christian... and he had to know Jesus was a Jew, yet he even ordered Jews to be killed that converted to Christianity! AND, of course, he missed the Bible verse that says if we judge the religous right, we're no better than they are. Much more there, yet I can't just reprint the whole site here! It really shows the line of logic he used to convince his followers, if not himself. Answered my questions! Thanks again Pritish! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amanda Posted November 10, 2005 Share Posted November 10, 2005 In conclusion, my own personal belief is that Hitler was neither a christian nor an atheist. Certainly he made use of christian theologians such as those mentioned, particularly Luther, but only when it suited his purposes. A master politician, which Hitler was, is a cynical realist and a master manipulator of his public. As such he will make use of whatever belief system suits him, as Hitler did. 104665[/snapback] Thanks for the great info Casey! I've suspected many political leaders, as well as others, throughout history of doing the same! Just many trolls, hijacking these teachings and twisting it to suit their own purposes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thurisaz Posted November 10, 2005 Share Posted November 10, 2005 I, too, am sick and tired of the "atheist Hitler" myth. Then you might like the image I constructed following a spontaneous thought... ...always funny to poke your finger into the wounds caused by the gazillion contradictions in fundie lore, no? (Image courtesy of Steven Spielberg's "Band of Brothers") Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thurisaz Posted November 10, 2005 Share Posted November 10, 2005 Let's not forget the great Martin Luther himself. It was in his honor KyrstalNacht was celebrated. 104515[/snapback] You might want to know how it's spelled correctly - "Kristallnacht" SCNR 8) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thurisaz Posted November 10, 2005 Share Posted November 10, 2005 I was surprised to learn just within the last few months that Hitler was not an Atheist, but professed to be a Christian! Wow! ... Does anyone know Hitler's reasoning behind genocide of the Jews, AND claiming to be a Christian... which would make his God a Jew? Since having read Mein Kampf, I think that it's all but impossible today to conclude what the moustached bastard did or did not believe. In his infamous book you can find references to the "eternal creator" and adoration for the christian cults as well as references to such vaguely-defined entities like the "eternal goddess of revenge" et cetera ad nauseam. But then, whatever faith (or lack thereof) hitler might have clung to... the fact remains that the vast majority of Germans back then were christians. So... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
All Gods Fail Posted November 10, 2005 Author Share Posted November 10, 2005 But then, whatever faith (or lack thereof) hitler might have clung to... the fact remains that the vast majority of Germans back then were christians. So... 104903[/snapback] Exactly - the wide majority of almost all Westerners were xtians back then - even more so than today. That's why what the theologians of that time did was so reprehensible. They essentially used Jesus to prop up the 3rd Reich and it's vile philosophy. And that's why xtianity is a dangerous religion - conformity, a communal mindset and unquestioning obedience to authority allows them to be led around by the nose (although to be fair, a lot of world religions and political movements have this aspect, too). There were some much more courageous German theologians and xtian leaders who refused to side with the Final Solution, but they were the minority and didn't specifically decry Hitler and his pals. They simply refused to go along with it. And then there were xtians like Dietrich Bonhoeffer, who smuggled Jews out of Germany, tried to blow up Hitler, and eventually was executed by the SS. Now that's a xtian I respect! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amanda Posted November 11, 2005 Share Posted November 11, 2005 Not to hijack this thread... yet, since there are great historically informed backgrounds here... is the reason the Arabs presently hate the Jews because they took over Palestine from an Islamic people? Hitler's 'Desert Fox' stormed into Egypt in about 1942, blowing off the nose of the Sphinx, about the same time the Jews decided to ascertain their own country that would always accept them, their 'promised' land... Israel. Weren't the Islamic people ok with the Jewish people till this? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vixentrox Posted November 11, 2005 Share Posted November 11, 2005 Just a point of correction, the Afrika Korps never made it to the Sphinx. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SkepticOfBible Posted November 11, 2005 Share Posted November 11, 2005 Wow Pritish! Is that all you do... study your whole life? These informational sites are remarkable! Thank you! 104764[/snapback] Thanks Although I never studied History formally, I consider myself a student of History. I really find the period between the 1910 to 1960 quite fasinating. I wouldn't know every single detail regarding the Nazi Germany. There is this very good book i hope you have heard of "the rise and fall of the 3rd reich" by William L. Shirer. This is a must read if you ever want to know the how it all began. I saw in a documentary on BBC where they were showing when Hitler escaped the assasination attempt in 1943(I think), he said to his secretary "Providence has shown me that I am to lead the Germany in victory" The one above is particularly interesting. It seems the rationality for the genocide, according to the site, was revealed in this quote from Hitler:..........Now, I had to think right away... hey, Jesus was a Jew... AND according to the site, the information Hitler was basing everything on was supposedly written by Jews! But, Hitler seems to claim the Jews condemned themselves by their own OT law! Well I suppose the reason why the Jews were persecuted because they said that these Jews were not the same as the Hebrews of the OT. They said that Jews were the mixtures of Caaninites and were different from the Hebrew. I think in Nazi Germany they considered aryan race as one of the lost tribe of Isreal Here is a site of a group which still thinks the same way(anti seminatic site) http://www.biblebelievers.org.au/word.htm This site actually promotes the Luther's books as inspiration http://www.biblebelievers.org.au/luther.htm Yet, Hitler did claim to be a Christian... and he had to know Jesus was a Jew, yet he even ordered Jews to be killed that converted to Christianity! AND, of course, he missed the Bible verse that says if we judge the religous right, we're no better than they are. It wasn't just Hitler that started the concept of persecution of the Jews. If I remember my history well, Nazi Germany took a lot of research material from the field of eugenics. Ironically Eugenics started in America. It was endorsed by a lot of celebrities of that time(eg Henry Ford and H G Wells). Sadly the concept of Eugenics was actually derived from Evolution. Intelligent Design is probably the modern counterpart of Eugenics. And speaking of Henry Ford. Did you know that the father of Mass Production was also a Anti Seminatic. He was a author of the book "The International Jew", which by no surprise was a best seller in Nazi Germany. http://www.biblebelievers.org.au/intern_jew.htm I found the full text of Martin Luthers Book (Full text of the jews and their lies) Much more there, yet I can't just reprint the whole site here! It really shows the line of logic he used to convince his followers, if not himself. Answered my questions! Thanks again Pritish! If you want to see how "bad logic" or "logical fallacies" is used to brainwash people, here is a good link from the website I gave you. Top Ten Nazi Anti-Semitic Arguments Go through the other anti semantic propaganda material in the website. It is the most comprehensive site on Nazi Propanganda I have ever seen. In my opinion history is a subject which everyone should study. You know the favourite saying "Those who don't study history tend to repeat it" Indirectly I feel that doctrines of Judaism was in some way responsible for suffering for it's people . Both Judaism and Christianity follows the ideal that some people are chosen over others. It is this elitist attitude that may have offended christians(not ignoring the fact that many christians themselves hold this view). Sadly this History is being repeated in India too, in the form of hindu fundamentalism. Their idealogy matches the Nazi Idealogy. BTW here is link to the UN report on History of the Palestine Problem Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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