Asuryan Posted November 14, 2005 Share Posted November 14, 2005 I'm curious, if people there don't read the Bible and just trust their priests, then does everyone believe the same way... as in comparison to the US where we have hundreds, if not thousands or more interpretations? Well... the american christian interpretations strike me as something that has been researched on the bible. Different interpretations of biblical verses and chapters... here, since no one knows anything about the bible (not even the gospels), the 99% of our population just go around saying that they are christian, but they don't know anything about their own faith. The Catholic faith doesn't explicitly condemn *anything*... for fear of scaring away or annoying their believers... do you know that in our catholic churches there are NO sermons about hell? Not one. Not a single one. Our catholic priests don't talk about hell, EVER. I know that it can sound strange, but remember that for the roman catholic church: 1) There is a thing called purgatory. No matter what you did and believed all of your life, if you repent on your deathbed and pray with a RC priest you will go to purgatory. 2) Even if you don't repent on your deathbed and die in sin (and even if you were a murderer, rapist, and so on), there are good chances that you'll end up in purgatory anyway, and after some thousand years there, you get to go to heaven. 3) If someone, let's say a relative, pays the priest to say a mass for the dead sinner, the old mechanism of indulgences goes back in motion, and you are said that your dear one won't spend thousands of years in purgatory, but just hundreds. Of course you can shorten your relative's purgatory time even more by paying even more... The reasoning behind the total absence of hell in the sermons? If the priest said "your dear one is now in hell", he could offend the family of the dead person, and convince them that the christian religion is not one worth believing in anyway. This would mean losing a family's offerings and donations and pay-for-masses and christian funerals... LOTS of money that go away! Even more so, if someone is "in hell", there's nothing you can do for him or her. If someone is in purgatory, and if you're told that you can PAY to place him or her in a happily-ever-after place on the clouds to shorten the stay in purgatory, well, the RC church gets more money after you... even if you're already dead. Hell = no profit. Purgatory = big bucks! You have to pay the church for the baptism, you have to pay the church for the communion (1st and 2nd one), you have to pay the church for the sunday school, your parents PAY the church even if they don't want to, to have someone teach you the RC religion in school... you have to pay the church for your marriage, you have to pay the church when you go and confess (just a little offering, or the priest will look at you badly...), you have to pay the church for your funeral and your relatives pay the church to speed up your process of going to heaven. This last process is known as "Paying a mass for the dead one's soul". This is also cultural... we have lots of advertising showing heaven. People walking on clouds, with wings on their backs, fluttering around in the sky. NO advertising at all showing hell. The RC church believers are strange. As strange as Christianity without a hell (or better, with a hell that you can avoid by simply paying big bucks). And since the priests don't condemn anything for fear of losing income, people here are utterly confused about their own beliefs. Try to imagine it: the people don't know anything about their own faith, the gospels, the bible, nothing. In sunday school, here, they teach you the most entertaining stories, changing the lexicon in something more nice and acceptable, and showing you lots of colored pictures. Fables: noah and the ark, jesus and the easier, less controversial parables, adam and eve (<-- the sunday school teacher teach the children that when adam and eve were chased away from the garden of eden, they became the neanderthals or something like that... let's mix evolution and creationism! Wheee!)... But if you know nothing about the bible, and if your priest doesn't explicitly condemn anything and avoids altogether talking about a hell... what do the italian RC believers know about their faith and their tenets? Nothing. There is total chaos here. We have the papaboys, a big group of young people that follow the pope around wherever he goes, bringing their guitars and singing boyscouts songs, chanting and praying at every occasion... clean cut, elegant, well-dressed, RICH right-winger boys and girls, of course... when they go back to their hotels, they go and have some good pre-marital, casual sex: they'll even think that the pope agrees with them about sex and condoms. We have catholic couples that know perfectly well that their faith doesn't allow divorces at all, they go and divorce anyway, and then they act enraged and furious when the priest refuses them the holy wafer saying that they have broken god's laws. "It's outrageous! I am a catholic and I have the RIGHT to eat the holy wafer. I went against my faith's laws? SO THERE?". We have people voting against artificial insemination (even if, let's say, the husband is sterile and the only way the wife can have a baby is with some other man's semen), and against abortion (even if the mother's life is in danger), they vote so because they boast they are christian and they won't vote something that goes against the christian beliefs... then, when they need an abortion or assisted procreation, they simply take their car and drive to switzerland, where they have the needed interventions without a care in the world. Seems that it is only a sin if you do that in Italy! If you go abroad to have the same operations done to you it's all right! I could go on, but I think I gave you an idea about the total religious confusion that goes around here. Asuryan, I've found no confusion at all! Very informative and congruently presented! I do my best, thank you I sincerely hope you are feeling better, and all well now! Seeing as I'm under painkillers, well, yes. Oooh! Pretty colors! Well, no, no pretty colors at all, but at least no pain. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amanda Posted November 14, 2005 Share Posted November 14, 2005 106661[/snapback] Very interesting dynamics you have there. :ohmy: Yet, it seems better than the fundamentalist here. People there aren't worried about themself or friends and family ending up in eternal torment, especially if the church gets a kickback. But of course, it does seem to discredit one's own accountability and responsibilities to the community. I like the idea of God being portrayed as more loving, yet the constant having to be paying for it almost prostitutes the religion, doesn't it? Hey, I hope you're feeling better. Pain pills are good for the pain, yet I hope there is a natural painfree time in your life now or real soon! Take care of yourself! I really enjoy your posts! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Asuryan Posted November 15, 2005 Share Posted November 15, 2005 I like the idea of God being portrayed as more loving, yet the constant having to be paying for it almost prostitutes the religion, doesn't it? Religion here is NOT a relationship with a god, that is for sure. Religion here is all about paying a priest to be assured of your Happily ever after death. There is no spirituality at all here: all that matters are your parish priest's words, personal initiative is not encouraged, especially if it goes against what your priest said. Paying is a must... you can divorce and keep having your holy wafer if you pay the vatican's lawyers, if you don't have the money (they want big buck$) you cannot divorce, and so on. Blessed be the rich... Take care of yourself! I really enjoy your posts! Well, my posts are, like, words from a distant, strange land shaped like a boot. I am the nice, busty alien with big black eyes and dark hair that speaks a mysterious language and offers you the mystical knowledge of the Catholiclands! Delirious again. Where are my painkillers? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
All Gods Fail Posted November 15, 2005 Author Share Posted November 15, 2005 I am the nice, busty alien with big black eyes and dark hair that speaks a mysterious language and offers you the mystical knowledge of the Catholiclands! 107488[/snapback] Hmmm...now I'm intrigued. Just how busty are you, bella? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eponymic Posted November 15, 2005 Share Posted November 15, 2005 Hi Thurisaz... I can agree that they condemned people within their same nationality. I just don't believe they condemned their own nationality itself. Why is that so hard to believe? Millions of people do that nowadays too. And for plenty of good reasons. Heck, I know I condemn America for many improper things they do under the name of freedom. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amanda Posted November 16, 2005 Share Posted November 16, 2005 Hi Thurisaz... I can agree that they condemned people within their same nationality. I just don't believe they condemned their own nationality itself. Why is that so hard to believe? Millions of people do that nowadays too. And for plenty of good reasons. Heck, I know I condemn America for many improper things they do under the name of freedom. 107534[/snapback] Hi Eponymic! It seems to me you're condemning actions, much the way I think was done in these original teachings. You're not condemning people as a nationality, are you? I take it, you are an American... so do we kill/condemn you because of this? Anyway, 'Americans' are a poor analogy... because we are not really of one nationality, but ALL nationalities... we're Heinz 57! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amanda Posted November 16, 2005 Share Posted November 16, 2005 107488[/snapback] Hey Asuryan, my state is shaped like a boot too! Upside down... Florida. What about the Morrocan influence? I've seen some of it in Spain, such as in the Alhambra. Is there much of that.... which would be Islamic, wouldn't it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SkepticOfBible Posted November 18, 2005 Share Posted November 18, 2005 When was the NT written? In a time when the early christians tried to gain a foothold in the Roman empire. It's not unreasonable to assume that the NT writers hurled shit at their own folks for strictly political reasons - to appeal to their overlords. 105715[/snapback] Hi Thurisaz... I can agree that they condemned people within their same nationality. I just don't believe they condemned their own nationality itself. It wasn't just Paul who was condeming. It is the christian god who condeming the Jews to hell. Here are some really good articles which demonstrates that Book Oh Acts Book Of Hebrews Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
essence Posted November 18, 2005 Share Posted November 18, 2005 I haven't read the book by Robert Ericksen, but I just saw the documentary by Rev. Steven D. Martin about the way the German protestant churches dealt with the Nazi philosophy in the WWII era. Amazing - it gave me a piece of the puzzle (of how a nation could embark on such an evil agenda) that I hadn't considered before. The Nazis were given spiritual legitimacy by some of it's leading theoligans: Kittel, Althaus and Hirsch. Kittel is especially reprehensible for his very specific polemics about the 'Jewish problem'. It was a primary force for the justification of the Final Solution, and was preached by pastors in the churches. So next time a xtian accuses you of being like a 'godless' Nazi, tell him to read up on Gerhard Kittel. It burns me up to think that fucker only got a 1.5 year prison sentence for complicity - he should have been hung. The comparison can be seen today in the Bush regime and those who believe he has spiritual authority in will of God to prempt war anywhere in the world. As I see it, The Christian Right is no different than those Christians who supported Hitler. Of course the hatred is shifted toward another people in Muslims instead of Jews. The Jewish people have been attacked, black people have been attacked, the Muslims are being attacked. Who will be next on their death cult list for slaughter according to their interpretation of the bible?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Asuryan Posted November 18, 2005 Share Posted November 18, 2005 Hmmm...now I'm intrigued. Just how busty are you, bella? I'm not familiar with the american way of classifying cup sizes. In italy one would say I have a 5th, 6th measure. Maybe it's equivalent to an E cup size? What about the Morrocan influence? I've seen some of it in Spain, such as in the Alhambra. Is there much of that.... which would be Islamic, wouldn't it? Not much moroccan influences here. Those are in spain, mostly. We have some arabic influences in sicily, but not many. Mostly for the food... lots of spices in the food, some particular cakes, and so on... In tuscany, where I live, there were some Etruscan influences, and of course some influences from Greece and later on, the influences of the Roman empire. However, serving and obeying the Vatican for centuries took its toll. The ancient influences were lost, at least from a cultural point of view. Mussolini tried to encourage and revive a feeling of "imperial Roman might", and based his political campaign and propaganda on this: his reasons for attacking other countries were mainly: a) trying to show off for Hitler trying to rekindle the imperial flame and build some kind of new roman empire with the conquered nations. So it came to pass, that nowadays the Roman empire symbolism and mythology are used mainly and mostly by neo fascists. See how a political leader can destroy the historical and mythological symbols of a nation's past? *sigh* Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
All Gods Fail Posted November 18, 2005 Author Share Posted November 18, 2005 Hmmm...now I'm intrigued. Just how busty are you, bella? I'm not familiar with the american way of classifying cup sizes.In italy one would say I have a 5th, 6th measure. Maybe it's equivalent to an E cup size? Marry me! So it came to pass, that nowadays the Roman empire symbolism and mythology are used mainly and mostly by neo fascists. See how a political leader can destroy the historical and mythological symbols of a nation's past? *sigh* Seems like political power and xtianity is always a bad combination. Was there ever a case in history when it hasn't resulted in catastrophe? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SkepticOfBible Posted November 19, 2005 Share Posted November 19, 2005 Hey Amanda, Here is nice link for you Anti-Semitism Throughout History Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Asuryan Posted November 19, 2005 Share Posted November 19, 2005 Marry me! I want a full fledged declaration, with kneeling and a beautiful ring. Think American Pie 3... Seems like political power and xtianity is always a bad combination. Was there ever a case in history when it hasn't resulted in catastrophe? I don't think so. It is resulting in catastrophe here at present day... NEWSFLASH: latest news here... in Italy, remember, abortion is allowed by the law. No matter what the bishops say about it. Where's the news? Well... A new pill, developed in france, and regularly registered as a full fledged abortive pill for the whole EU since 1999, was requested here in Italy by some women. The pill works like this: under medical control, you take a pill per day, for three days. The doctor then checks if everything went well. No surgical operation, no trauma to the woman's body. Just three pills. Of course this kind of abortion can only be practiced in the first fifty days since conceiving, and still requests the woman to be controlled once per day by a doctor to see how her body is reacting. The region I live in, tuscany, imported the pill, since there is a law that states that if a patient requires a medicine that is legally approved in the EU, then the doctor must independently choose if prescribing it to the patient or not, and if there are no increased risks in using the medicine the patient asked for and if the medicine is effective, then the doctor *has* to allow the patient to take it. Other italian regions followed the example almost immediately. The reaction? Priests, bishops, cardinals and pope screaming enraged. Their line of reasoning? Surgical abortion is to be allowed. Chemical abortion, is not to be allowed. Because it would be NOT PAINFUL ENOUGH for the woman, because it would be LESS TRAUMATIC FOR THE WOMAN's BODY, and thus it could encourage more women to have an abortion. Under the pressure of the Vatican, our fucking health minister (one of berlusconi's lackeys) blocked the introduction of the pills in our country. Legally, he cannot do that. So he intends to prepare a new law just for this occasion. Tuscany already announced that we will bring the case to the European high court, if needed. France is once again enraged with us, because the pill is regularly registered and effective, not only in france but in the whole european union (and everybody in europe is taking it, exception made for Italy and maybe spain). And again, our country is regarded by the rest of europe as a Vatican protectorate. I want to emigrate... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thurisaz Posted November 19, 2005 Share Posted November 19, 2005 Seems like political power and xtianity is always a bad combination. Seems to me that this was the default situation for most of the jebus cults' history... Was there ever a case in history when it hasn't resulted in catastrophe? Probably not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ouroboros Posted November 19, 2005 Share Posted November 19, 2005 ... A new pill, developed in france, and regularly registered as a full fledged abortive pill for the whole EU since 1999, was requested here in Italy by some women. The pill works like this: under medical control, you take a pill per day, for three days. The doctor then checks if everything went well. No surgical operation, no trauma to the woman's body. Just three pills. Of course this kind of abortion can only be practiced in the first fifty days since conceiving, and still requests the woman to be controlled once per day by a doctor to see how her body is reacting. The region I live in, tuscany, imported the pill, since there is a law that states that if a patient requires a medicine that is legally approved in the EU, then the doctor must independently choose if prescribing it to the patient or not, and if there are no increased risks in using the medicine the patient asked for and if the medicine is effective, then the doctor *has* to allow the patient to take it. Other italian regions followed the example almost immediately. The reaction? Priests, bishops, cardinals and pope screaming enraged. So strange that Christian of any kind reacts to these pills, since the fetus is not a "living" being until the 3rd week, according to the Bible and biology. I want to emigrate... But where...? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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