My Personal Relationship With Absurdity

[Denyoz]

Denyoz, I envy and admire your courage to share your true self with your family. I agree that we all need to come out but the reality of it is frightening. Your pill rant is priceless! It's so true that religion is the biggest mind fuck. You do write well and yes, writing is an art. Don't let your family get you down. It's impossible for believers to blame god for bad stuff like your lack of belief. It has to be your fault or satan's. Hopefully they will come around. My husband chipped away at my belief without even realizing it by his steadfast unbelief and his calm reasoning. He never argued with me about religion but when I would try to start a discussion he often shut me up with some small statement that shook my faith. I never admitted it to him. I think the people around you feel threatened by your lack of belief. Keep chipping away.

 

OMneg, thank you for writing to me. Your words are precious.

 

My family has been very good to me, even if I deconverted they treat me with the same respect as before. They are not hardcore fundamentalists, just church-going, God-loving, peace-seeking, tolerant christians. Tolerant is the word that best describes them, in fact I think this is a Canadian trait. Our main enemy is not the devil, it's not atheism, it's the cold. So I'm lucky in that sense. I probably could get into a hot debate about Christianity with my brother if I wanted, but I prefer talking about this with my sisters, they are more open-minded. My father was a hot-headed debater when he was alive. My mother is gentle and she's a good listener.

 

My wife is from a catholic family like me. She doesn't go to church exept for Baptisms, First Communions, Confirmations and Weddings in the family. Her rules are pretty simple: be nice, stay clean, obey the law. Don't kill anyone and you will go to Heaven after you die. That's it. So it's cool. She will never deconvert because she was never a convert. She has a few superstitious beliefs but nothing that affects me. She keeps them to herself because she knows what I think about them.

 

I don't know any ex-christians I could talk to. But that's ok. I prefer writing, I'm not really good at talking.

[OMneg]

One of my particular favourites is that being rich makes you happy. Money has been god in western culture for decades, another truth no one wants to tell.

 

I wish I had somebody to blame. In my mind it's all God's fault, but I don't believe he exists any more, so I can't blame him. If I turn my anger towards myself then it could get ugly, so I don't want to do that. I keep telling myself that I am innocent. I feel my anger just goes around in circles and never hits any target and it's so frustrating.

 

Last Saturday I posted a video on the Rants and Replies forum entitled Preacher Dies On Stage! Do I get some sort of pleasure out of seeing priests die and churches burn? Yes I do. Maybe I have become evil. The worse thing is I don't care. I even get a pleasure out of thinking that I have become evil. Does anybody else experience this?

I can so relate to the anger and having no one to blame. I wish I could share with you how I became less angry. I don't know if it will ever be completely gone but it's manageable now. Do not turn it on yourself! You are innocent in this. We all are. We were fed a line of crap and we thought we were doing the right thing. You can't blame yourself for that no matter how irrational it seems now. It was very real back then. I'm glad your wife isn't devout. That helps. Sad that she has become depressed herself. You guys can help each other with that I hope. I'm sort of jaded about the soul mate issue myself but I think that when you're with someone long enough and close enough that you become soul mates.

I'm glad you mention the strange attraction to evil. It's like I want to do something really bad to piss God off. Of course he's not there. I still feel like rebelling just because I can. I wouldn't encourage you to wallow in negative and evil thoughts but I think sometimes it's good to allow ourselves to think terrible things like being happy that the pastor died. Maybe directing your anger like that will help.

[Denyoz]

You are innocent in this. We all are. We were fed a line of crap and we thought we were doing the right thing. You can't blame yourself for that no matter how irrational it seems now. It was very real back then.

 

I'm glad you mention the strange attraction to evil. It's like I want to do something really bad to piss God off. Of course he's not there. I still feel like rebelling just because I can. I wouldn't encourage you to wallow in negative and evil thoughts but I think sometimes it's good to allow ourselves to think terrible things like being happy that the pastor died. Maybe directing your anger like that will help.

 

Ah! Thank you, OMneg. It feels good to hear that I am innocent.

 

It's also good to hear that you understand the "attraction to evil" part. I posted this 3 days ago and I asked "Does anybody else experience this?" And no one replied. You replied this morning, thank you. Last night I was thinking about this. We are so quick at acknowledging how good we are but not so quick at acknowledging how evil we are. We say: He is evil, God is evil, the church is evil, Christianity is evil but not "I am evil."

 

I just did an online quiz for fun: How evil are you? The result is that I am 56% evil. Cool. That's what I thought and I am happy with it.

 

This is interesting, I want to know how others score so I am starting a new thread here on this subject.

[Margee]

Denyoz, I am going to post more serious about my feelings on 'evil' here in your original post. I just made a lighthearted response to the other one you posted. (even tho it was true!! )

 

I think this whole issue of evil is about 2 things. 1.Our survival and 2. the rules we were taught growing up at what 'they' considered 'evil' was, according to the world's standards.

Sometimes, in the game of life we have to do what we do to survive; emotionally and physically. Sometimes we do have to hurt other people so they don't hurt us. Is this evil? I don't think so. I'm not talking about someone going out and killing for no good damn reason. I am talking about our own personal survival. I went through a divorce. Some people considered that almost next to 'evil'. Divorce is the devils work!! Evil!!

 

On the emotional side,we were taught that you were not supposed to be one bit selfish and if you were...that was a bad thing. These were the 'rules'.

 

Most of us grew up to be people pleasers. Most of us were not allowed to say no. It's only been the past couple of years that I have really learned how to say that word and mean it. I am working hard on not feeling the continuous guilt that I have felt during my whole life as a people pleaser.

 

Just take a look at the bible and what it says about remaining 'good'! Look at this 'standard' of evil below.....according to god......

 

My gawd, it state's that if you even look at another with lust in your eyes....tear your eyes out. Well, I should have been born with 4,000 sets of eyes to pull out cause I committed that 'sin' hundreds of times. I even had a crush on the pastor!!!!!!

 

I would go down to the alter and pray for god to give me 'eyes' that were only for him. I felt flawed all the time no matter how good I tried to be.. Of course, I didn't tell anyone....it was too shameful. All these years of feeling abnormal and evil because of some of these rules from teachers, preachers, parents, etc..I didn't do anything wrong - I looked...Ok...sometimes I lusted..... but we are friggin' human beings. We're animals. I think it's amazing that any of us stay faithful to our partners for years and years. Sorry, some will think I'm bad and don't have any morals for saying this. Well I do......I've already proved that to myself.

 

I'm just sick and tired of people telling me what evil is and what evil isn't. Most people can't admit that they wish their parents at 95 would fall asleep and die (peacefully of course) so they wouldn't have the burden of looking after them. to admit something like this would make one evil!!!! Not me anymore - I say, you had your turn on earth....now go to sleep because I don't want any more responsibility. Sounds evil I know.

 

Do I say some of these things out loud? No, of course not. I do not want to hurt anyone, I am just admitting that I do think more realisitically now and I do have these thoughts and I don't want to be told by anyone that I should feel guilty. I may shock some by saying these things. I don't mean to. I'm in my 50's now....I'm gettin' a little tired; I've worked hard my whole life, I got 2 kids out the door, struggled through a lot of things to survive and make it this far.I also did my best to please an invisable god and hundreds of people.

 

I want some time to myself now. I want to be a little selfish right now without all the godamn fucking guilt of not being the perfect 'lady'.

 

I am a nice person; I try to do right by others and I try not to do 'wrong' things that would hurt other people. I don't always succeed...sometimes I have to lie a little to protect myself.(and them!) I don't consider half the things I used to.....to be evil anymore.

 

If you are not out there killing and hurting animals and children and your loved ones....You might start to consider yourself 'normal'. I know my flaws and I am working on them. You know yours denyoz.....sounds to me like a lot of us on EX-c are very hard on ourselves. I'm tired of that shit.

I admit, I am a little more selfish since I left christianity....... and I think I'm O.K. with that... for now.....

 

I hope my honesty dosen't get me in trouble.......

 

Denyoz.......i think you're normal....................

[Denyoz]

I think this whole issue of evil is about 2 things. 1. Our survival and 2. the rules we were taught growing up

 

Hi again Margee. Thank you for your response. I totally agree with you. Plus, it's not nice of me to imply that if we don't admit being evil it's because we are hypocrites. It was arrogant of me to say that, I am sorry. I'm learning, I'm learning.

 

I also realized that hiding our evil side is all about survival. People like beautiful things, we need people, so we show them beautiful things. This is how nature works.

 

Thanks for your support. I hope Lyall will be allright

[NeverAgainV]

There is a void after walking away from religion for those of us who put our hearts & souls into it.

Do your best to keep moving forward...that's all any of us can do.

The crying you mention could be that you are still grieving about what you experienced.

 

I remember I cried every day for about 2 years straight...one year before I left the cult ( I think I realized it was bullshit & that was one bitter pill to swallow) Then a year after I left...all of the emotions of being shunned & realizing I gave so much for a group of people who didn't really give a shit about us.

 

Ah well...just gotta keep moving forward & carry on.

Take Care!! ((hug))

 

So true how much the shunning hurts. I cried for three years in church every sunday when I finally got the guts to go somewhere other than the cult. Its bloody soul destroying stuff. The anger though at realising they didn't give a shit helps with some balance though. Big fat hug for you for your courage.

 

I'm sorry I haven't been to this thread in a while. Galien, Thank you so much & a (((HUG))) back. Oh, wow wow...I cried too...in the Lutheran church I started going to after the cult... I just couldn't handle church anymore.

Kudos to you for your strength to get through the hell of it. and you are so right when you write, "It's bloody soul destroying stuff..." Yes it sure is. I'm glad we have places like this to find folks like ourselves & to help each other.

Take Care

[TrueFreedom]

The story of Adam and Eve makes a little more sense now. The Creator of the universe tells Adam he can eat from any tree in the garden, including the Tree of Life, but not eat from the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil. Our knowledge of good and evil comes from the Bible, the church, Christianity, religion, and from our own insecure and guilty consciences. Our Creator tells us right at the beginning not to touch that tree. He says to eat from the tree of life! In other words: “Enjoy life and don't worry about good and evil, you'll be OK.” The rest of the Bible is the story of what happens to those who choose to eat from the tree of knowledge of good and evil. They have to go through all this redemption absurdity to end up at the same place they were in the beginning.

 

So this is it then: Welcome to the Garden of Eden!

 

Brilliant! What a keen take on the story! Better to stick with loving autonomy!

[mcdaddy]

But if in the process of enjoying life you wind up causing lots of pain and destruction. That's no bueno.

[TrueFreedom]

But if in the process of enjoying life you wind up causing lots of pain and destruction. That's no bueno.

 

Of course! No need to confuse pain and destruction with good and evil. The a priori (genetic/memetic) understanding of love is enough for most of us. Good/evil guilt just makes things worse.

[Denyoz]

The story of Adam and Eve makes a little more sense now. The Creator of the universe tells Adam he can eat from any tree in the garden, including the Tree of Life, but not eat from the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil. Our knowledge of good and evil comes from the Bible, the church, Christianity, religion, and from our own insecure and guilty consciences. Our Creator tells us right at the beginning not to touch that tree. He says to eat from the tree of life! In other words: “Enjoy life and don't worry about good and evil, you'll be OK.” The rest of the Bible is the story of what happens to those who choose to eat from the tree of knowledge of good and evil. They have to go through all this redemption absurdity to end up at the same place they were in the beginning.

 

So this is it then: Welcome to the Garden of Eden!

 

Brilliant! What a keen take on the story! Better to stick with loving autonomy!

 

Well thank you True! I'm quite proud of this take on the Adam and Eve story, it makes the rest of the Bible make more sense.

[Denyoz]

But if in the process of enjoying life you wind up causing lots of pain and destruction. That's no bueno.

 

Of course! No need to confuse pain and destruction with good and evil. The a priori (genetic/memetic) understanding of love is enough for most of us. Good/evil guilt just makes things worse.

 

Exactly. According to the very first story in the bible, our creator does not want us to know anything about good and evil. This knowledge is of no use. And if you insist on knowing what is good and what is evil, then read the rest of the bible to see what will happen to your mind and what you will have to go through to end up at the same place you were in the beginning: the Garden of Eden, or Heaven (both are the same thing). Heaven is a state of mind by the way, not a place on a map.

[Cestlavie]

I also have much difficulty with love. Like even when I say to them "I love you", I want to add "but not that much." because I don't want to give them false hope. It's horrible.

 

I know the word is probably overused, but Wow! I loved reading your story, you hit so many of my buttons around Christianity. And your questioning of the concept of love is right where I am, too. I think so much of how I defined love for myself had to do with my concept of God and that sense of euphoria we get when we first fall in love. And you hit the nail on the head when you talked about it being a chemical reaction that caused us to stay with a mate long enough to procreate.

 

Now I am redefining what love means to me. In it's very basest sense, I think all of us assign the emotion of love to anyone and anything that is giving us something we need or want in our lives, and that varies wildly from person to person. It's a very childish view of love, but I think I've been stuck there most of my life. Now I am seeing how much more it has to do with things like: being responsible in a relationship, learning to communicate clearly, being honest, caring about how my actions might hurt the people I "love", being supportive and encouraging, even when their decisions don't benefit us! It has more to do with empathy than any real emotional high. Sometimes I might feel nothing, but I know what the right action is, so I do it anyway.

 

So, thank you for your story and welcome! I'm new here, too, and I'm really enjoying this amazing group of people.

[Denyoz]

...your questioning of the concept of love is right where I am, too. I think so much of how I defined love for myself had to do with my concept of God...

 

Now I am redefining what love means to me.

 

Hi Cestlavie. Thank you for your comment, I appreciate it.

 

I still wonder why so many people believe that God is love, and what' so divine about love. God and his love has deceived me big time, I wonder if I will ever get over it. Years have passed since my deconversion, and look, I'm still talking about it, reading about it. Seems this is the only thing I'm interested in. This and role-playing games, which I noticed you enjoy also. A bit unusual, considering my age. But I think RPG is the best escape to "a better place" that man has conceived, after religion, when religion fails.

 

I wish I could spend more energy helping make this world a better place, but I admit, I have lost hope for this world. I can't find the motivation.

 

I read your testimony last night. Will go and have a look at it again this morning, I think we have a lot in common.

[inorbit]

Our stories have soooo many parallels. Replace "Catholic" with "Conservative Evangelical" and "camp" with "mission trip" and our stories are nearly interchangeable. I didn't go into much about my history within Christianity in my testimony, only my journey coming out of it. I must say, the whole context is very eye-opening and confirming. I was nodding along as I read your story. Also, feeling your pain. Very relatable. Good stuff. Thanks for sharing. Nice to find so many kindred spirits here.

[mcdaddy]

All humans are kindred spirits; Some just choose to be less kindred.

[Denyoz]

Our stories have soooo many parallels. Replace "Catholic" with "Conservative Evangelical" and "camp" with "mission trip" and our stories are nearly interchangeable. I didn't go into much about my history within Christianity in my testimony, only my journey coming out of it. I must say, the whole context is very eye-opening and confirming. I was nodding along as I read your story. Also, feeling your pain. Very relatable. Good stuff. Thanks for sharing. Nice to find so many kindred spirits here.

 

Thank you inorbit. I just went and read your testimony which I found fascinating. I'm not going to comment it here, I will comment it there. Also, if you know how I could go into orbit, let me know, I am so very interested

[BendyLine]

Here are links to my first two posts on the forum. These were journal entries I wrote when I was right in the middle of all of my doubt and frustration. If nothing else maybe it will help you see that you are definitely not alone in what you've been through. You're obviously a very strong person to have survived all of this. Keep writing - it really does help. I think you should seriously consider writing a book. You are a gifted writer and have a unique and fascinating story to tell that could help many people.

 

 

Part 1

 

http://www.ex-christ...__fromsearch__1

 

Part 2

http://www.ex-christ...__fromsearch__1

 

I really enjoyed those journal entries. I went through many of the same feelings myself over the past decade.