Replies... ?

[Eemaan]

^I'm not qouting from Qur'an. But ofcourse this is a huge crime in Islam. I will get you more details.

[Astreja]

Please be respectful if you want replies

 

Why should we be respectful, Eemaan? This forum was not designed for you. It was set up specifically for people who want to express their frustrations with religion.

 

If you want Me to believe in your god, your god will have to appear to Me in person. There are currently no other scenarios that I would accept. The Qur'an is just a book to Me, and I prefer personal experience to people who make claims but cannot back them up with physical evidence.

[Eemaan]

Considering that human life is to be valued and cruelty is forbidden, what is the Islamic perspective on incest and rape?

 

According to Islâm, a woman has to be respected and protected under all circumstances, whether she belongs to your own nation or to the nation of an enemy, whether she follows your religion or belongs to some other religion or has no religion at all. A Muslim cannot outrage her under any circumstances. All promiscuous relationships have been forbidden to him, irrespective of the status or position of the woman, whether the woman is a willing or an unwilling partner to the act. The words of the Holy Qur’ân in this respect are: "Do not approach (the bounds of) adultery" (17:32). Heavy punishment has been prescribed for this crime, and the order has not been qualified by any conditions. Since the violation of chastity of a woman is forbidden in Islam, a Muslim who perpetrates this crime cannot escape punishment. (Maudoodi)

The Quran has, in various ways and in different contexts; impressed on men that they must observe the limits set by God (Hudûd Allah) in respect to women and must not encroach upon their rights in either marriage or divorce. In all situations it is the men who are reminded, corrected and reprimanded, over and over again, to be generous to women and to be kind, compassionate, fair and just in their dealings with women. Even in divorce, when the chances of anger and vindictiveness are high, it is stressed that men are to separate with grace, equity and generosity.

Forbidding cruelty against children and women is apparent from rulings against female infanticide and rights of inheritance given even to an unborn child; and the kindness mandated even when divorcing your wife. There are numerous ahâdîth about the rights of children to respect and dignity. The same holds true for respect and the unprecedented rights given to women.

Relevant verses from the Quran:

Sûrah an Nâs 4.119

'O you who believe! You are forbidden to inherit women against their will...'

Sûrah an Nûr 24.33

'... And do not, in order to gain some of the fleeting pleasures of this worldly life, coerce your slave women into whoredom if they are desirous of marriage, and if anyone should coerce them, then, verily, after they have been compelled (to submit in their helplessness), God will be much forgiving, a dispenser of grace (to them).

During the time of the Prophet (saw) punishment was inflicted on the rapist on the solitary evidence of the woman who was raped by him. Wa'il ibn Hujr reports of an incident when a woman was raped. Later, when some people came by, she identified and accused the man of raping her. They seized him and brought him to Allah's messenger, who said to the woman, "Go away, for Allâh has forgiven you," but of the man who had raped her, he said, "Stone him to death." (Tirmidhi and Abu Dawud)

 

You can find out a lot more here:

 

http://www.muslimaccess.com/articles/Women/rape_in_islam.asp

[BrotherJosh]

Whether she belongs to your own nation or to the nation of an enemy, whether she follows your religion or belongs to some other religion or has no religion at all.

 

Belongs huh?

[♦ nivek ♦]

Ms. Eemaan:

 

In this your "second round" here at Ex-Christian you are going to find another extended group of persons who are solid in their belief or not in religious affairs.

 

We've grown considerably and in turn there are many more persons who are willing to engage what you think you hold dear as religious convictions.

 

Prepare to be challenged mentally and philosophically.

 

kevinL FenceRiderForTheBoss

[blackpudd1n]

Whether she belongs to your own nation or to the nation of an enemy, whether she follows your religion or belongs to some other religion or has no religion at all.

 

Belongs huh?

 

Yep, I'm definitely never going to be an muslim.

 

Eemaan, this is what i was referring to before. If a woman is considered the property of a man, then you should know better than to expect him to treat her properly and respect her.

 

Let me explain something here. I belong to myself. I make all of my own decisions, and I accept the consequences, good or bad, of any decision that I make. I have the right to choose who I will and won't marry. I have the right to get a divorce. I have the right to learn what I want to, and I have the right to work wherever I want. I also have the right, respected by my partner, to make my own decisions, voice my own opinions, and have an equal say in major decisions affecting our lives. Not only that, but my rights are protected. I am a free agent. I "belong" to NO ONE.

 

And like hell will give up my own self-determination for the sake of ANY religion. I value myself, my independence of thought, self-respect, and FREEDOM too much to be bound by the shackles of a religion that says, due to my gender, that I "belong" to someone else. Not a chance in hell.

[Thought2Much]

Eemaan, the only countries where Islam is peaceful are the ones in which Muslims are a tiny, tiny minority (such as the U.S.), and the ones in which they are the sole religious group, because they have "converted," killed, or forced out all of the opposition. Notice that anywhere they are not the sole majority, they're a rather nasty, violent bunch. The only reason that countries that are entirely Muslim are peaceful is because people are afraid for their lives to say they don't believe in Islam.

 

How wonderful. Thanks, but I want no part of your Religion of Peace™, and I have no desire to visit any nation in the world that forces this shit on people by law.

[Guest Babylonian Dream]

The Arabs used to bury their little girls alive, but Islam stopped that.

Thus says your holy books, but not archaeological evidence. Before the jews came and destroyed the evil canaanites, they'd sacrifice their kids to Molech. So says the Bible, but archaeological evidence says otherwise. Furthermore, there isn't much evidence of a Molech either.

[Deva]

What do you mean many threads I did not have anything to do with? I just wanted to be a normal member, and like everyone else we have our own points of views. Ok they don't care about this religion, but they attack my religion so I just want to say what the truth about my Islam is.

 

You won't find anyone here that will be convinced of the "truth" of Islam, your truth or any other version. You don't seem to understand or comprehend that we don't believe in Allah or any other version of God that is like that.

 

Most of us here know Islam to be ignorant and backward. Its another religion tied to an old book.

[agnosticator]

Hmm...Allah doesn't seem to be such a nice god afterall.

 

and what about these verses? Inspiration for suicide bombers? Allah Akbar!

 

Qur'an (2:191-193) - "And slay them wherever ye find them, and drive them out of the places whence they drove you out, for persecution [of Muslims] is worse than slaughter [of non-believers]...and fight them until persecution is no more, and religion is for Allah."

 

Qur'an (4:74) - "Let those fight in the way of Allah who sell the life of this world for the other. Whoso fighteth in the way of Allah, be he slain or be he victorious, on him We shall bestow a vast reward."

 

Qur'an (3:151) - "Soon shall We cast terror into the hearts of the Unbelievers, for that they joined companions with Allah, for which He had sent no authority".

 

Qur'an (4:95) - "Not equal are those believers who sit (at home) and receive no hurt, and those who strive and fight in the cause of Allah with their goods and their persons. Allah hath granted a grade higher to those who strive and fight with their goods and persons than to those who sit (at home). Unto all (in Faith) Hath Allah promised good: But those who strive and fight Hath He distinguished above those who sit (at home) by a special reward,-"

 

Qur'an (8:12) - "I will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve. Therefore strike off their heads and strike off every fingertip of them"

 

Qur'an (8:15) - "O ye who believe! When ye meet those who disbelieve in battle, turn not your backs to them. (16)Whoso on that day turneth his back to them, unless maneuvering for battle or intent to join a company, he truly hath incurred wrath from Allah, and his habitation will be hell, a hapless journey's end."

 

 

Qur'an (8:39) - "And fight with them until there is no more persecution and religion should be only for Allah"

 

 

Qur'an (9:29) - "Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued."

 

Qur'an (9:30) - "And the Jews say: Ezra is the son of Allah; and the Christians say: The Messiah is the son of Allah; these are the words of their mouths; they imitate the saying of those who disbelieved before; may Allah destroy them; how they are turned away!"

 

 

 

Qur'an (9:38-39) - "O ye who believe! what is the matter with you, that, when ye are asked to go forth in the cause of Allah, ye cling heavily to the earth? Do ye prefer the life of this world to the Hereafter? But little is the comfort of this life, as compared with the Hereafter. Unless ye go forth, He will punish you with a grievous penalty, and put others in your place."

 

Qur'an (9:73) - "O Prophet! strive hard against the unbelievers and the hypocrites and be unyielding to them; and their abode is hell, and evil is the destination."

 

Qur'an (9:123) - "O you who believe! fight those of the unbelievers who are near to you and let them find in you hardness."

 

Qur'an (25:52) - "Therefore listen not to the Unbelievers, but strive against them with the utmost strenuousness, with the (Qur'an)."

 

Qur'an (48:29) - "Muhammad is the messenger of Allah. And those with him are hard (ruthless) against the disbelievers and merciful among themselves"

 

Qur'an (66:9) - "O Prophet! Strive against the disbelievers and the hypocrites, and be stern with them. Hell will be their home, a hapless journey's end."

 

HADITH:

 

Bukhari (52:256) - The Prophet... was asked whether it was permissible to attack the pagan warriors at night with the probability of exposing their women and children to danger. The Prophet replied, "They (i.e. women and children) are from them (i.e. pagans)."

 

Abu Dawud (14:2526) - The Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) said: Three things are the roots of faith: to refrain from (killing) a person who utters, "There is no god but Allah" and not to declare him unbeliever whatever sin he commits, and not to excommunicate him from Islam for his any action; and jihad will be performed continuously since the day Allah sent me as a prophet until the day the last member of my community will fight with the Dajjal (Antichrist)

 

Muslim (1:33) - the Messenger of Allah said: I have been commanded to fight against people till they testify that there is no god but Allah, that Muhammad is the messenger of Allah

 

 

 

Bukhari (8:387) - Allah's Apostle said, "I have been ordered to fight the people till they say: 'None has the right to be worshipped but Allah

 

 

 

Muslim (1:149) - "Abu Dharr reported: I said: Messenger of Allah, which of the deeds is the best? He (the Holy Prophet) replied: Belief in Allah and Jihad in His cause..."

 

 

 

Muslim (20:4645) - "...He (the Messenger of Allah) did that and said: There is another act which elevates the position of a man in Paradise to a grade one hundred (higher), and the elevation between one grade and the other is equal to the height of the heaven from the earth. He (Abu Sa'id) said: What is that act? He replied: Jihad in the way of Allah! Jihad in

 

Tabari 9:69 "Killing Unbelievers is a small matter to us" The words of Muhammad, prophet of Islam.

 

Ibn Ishaq: 992 - "Fight everyone in the way of Allah and kill those who disbelieve in Allah."

[agnosticator]

Or how about these?

 

http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/quran/cruelty/long.html

 

Allah will make disbelievers' lives miserable in this world and torture them forever after they die. 2:114

 

Kill disbelievers wherever you find them. If they attack you, then kill them. Such is the reward of disbelievers. (But if they desist in their unbelief, then don't kill them.) 2:191-2

 

Allah says that you must keep fighting until there is no more persecution and everyone on earth is a Muslim. Then you can stop killing people. 2:193a

[Akheia]

If what Muhammad pbuh preached was insane ramblings, then no way would Islam be as strong as it is now, and the fastest growing religion in the world.

Really? Many consider atheism one of the fastest-growing philosophies in the world. By that logic, maybe you should take a serious look at it.

 

What you're doing is an appeal to numbers. It's a well-known logical fallacy that Christians often use. Any religion can say that it has a lot of adherents so therefore it is correct. A million people believing in nonsense doesn't make that nonsense true. I really hope you haven't staked your eternal soul on something as simplistic and obviously false as that logic.

 

It's especially sad to hear a woman rationalizing her society's control of her. You might go on and on about how "REAL MUSLIMS" (tm?) don't abuse their wives and daughters, but the sordid reality that plays out in the countries sadly controlled by an 6th-century lunatic's absurdities says very differently. You say that Islam told adherents to stop burying daughters alive--but forced marriages, abuse, and honor killings still abound in your religion's culture. If your god was real, then countries dominated by his religions would not need to "stamp out" such barbaric practices--your people would reflect nothing but his grace and goodness. But your book is filled with barbarism and even though you ignore it (much like how Christians tend to view the Bible with blinders on), others see it clearly. One reason that led to my leaving Christianity was seeing how poorly men treated women in the faith; Islam is far more controlling and restrictive, so you're not going to win me over by talking out your ass about roses and puppies when any thinking human can just see in the news that you're delusional when you rabbit on and on about how wunnerful REAL MUSLIM MEN are.

 

So you first need to prove your barbaric god exists--so far all you've done is rationalize why he doesn't do jack shit for his followers or the world. Really, your worldview makes it look like we don't actually even need a god--the world looks the same either way! Then we can get to talking about whether that god actually deserves my respect, much less my worship and allegiance.

[bornagainathiest]

Hello again Eemaan.

 

Shall I go ahead (again!) and point out how this book misuses scientific data to trick unwary people into thinking Islam is backed up by science, or will you do the honest thing and condemn it as false, wicked and un-Islamic?

 

http://www.islam-guide.com/

 

Yes.

I haven't forgotten about this book of lies... even after all this time.

Nor have I forgotten how you stubbornly refused to condemn it as false and misleading.

 

Please note that I am not insulting your faith by asking this of you.

What I am asking is that you stop defending this book's dishonest use of scientific information and pseudo-scientific disinformation.

If someone wants to become a Muslim, shouldn't they do so on the basis of the facts and not unscientific propaganda?

So, where does your loyalty lie - with the facts or with these lies?

 

BAA.

[florduh]

If what Muhammad pbuh preached was insane ramblings, then no way would Islam be as strong as it is now, and the fastest growing religion in the world. It is necessary for me to reply because there are many false views about Islam here and maybe I can change that a little.

 

If what Muhammad pbuh L. Ron Hubbard preached taught was insane ramblings, then no way would Islam Scientology be as strong as it is now, and the fastest growing religion in the world. It is necessary for me to reply because there are many false views about Islam Scientology here and maybe I can change that a little.

 

Bullshit piled upon bullshit. E, read a fuckin' newspaper or even your own holy book. Wait...let me guess...the Muslims making the news around the world every day with their killing and torture and virtual slavery of women and girls aren't True Muslims, even though they follow the teachings of the Koran (Quran, Qu'ran, whateverthefuck) and their religious leaders but you have the true understanding of Allah and his religion of peace, right? Bugger off, idiot.

[buffettphan]

I'd like to see Thumby and Eemann try to convert each other.

[Thought2Much]

I'd like to see Thumby and Eemann try to convert each other.

 

 

EDIT: It would be interesting to test if the entire internet could hold that much bullshit without crashing.

[Overcame Faith]

I don't think the comments about your religion are made because you're a Muslim. If you will search the forums and read what many people say (in many threads that predate your appearance here and on many threads that you had nothing to do with), many people here do not buy into any of the Abrahamic religions because they're all cut from the same cloth. Once one of the religions fall, they all fall because the central character, the Abrahamic god, does not exist. What is left, therefore, are manmade religions whose obvious purposes are to control people through coercive rules, regulations, and teachings which came from the minds of people and which are manipulated today for the raw exercise of power of one group of people over other groups of people.

 

Since you are aware of this fact, why are you here? Why not go to a Muslim forum?

 

What do you mean many threads I did not have anything to do with? I just wanted to be a normal member, and like everyone else we have our own points of views. Ok they don't care about this religion, but they attack my religion so I just want to say what the truth about my Islam is.

 

You misquoted me. I did not ask the two questions which you incorrectly attributed to me and which I bolded.

 

As for your question, I was responding to the following statement of yours:

 

Since majority of people in this forum, because I'm a Muslim, choose to insult my religion (and one that I believe in forever), it becomes almost necessary for me to reply. Maybe not right now as I'm not having time.

 

Your statement, as written, suggested that the reason people on this forum had a negative view of your religion was because you're Muslim. I was responding to that by telling you that people do not have a negative view of your religion because you're Muslim, but because they do not accept any of the Abrahamic religions. As evidence for my statement, I was informing you that people on this forum have discussed your religion even at times when you were not involved in the discussion at all.

 

As examples, see the following threads which you took no part in:

 

http://www.ex-christian.net/topic/50592-moroccan-girl-kills-herself-after-judge-forces-her-to-marry-her-rapist/page__p__738983__hl__islam__fromsearch__1#entry738983

 

http://www.ex-christian.net/topic/50524-iraqi-teens-stoned-to-death-for-wearing-emo-clothes/page__hl__islam

 

http://www.ex-christian.net/topic/49782-atheist-sent-to-prison-for-doubting-his-religion-based-on-the-koran/page__p__721426__hl__islam__fromsearch__1#entry721426

 

Those are just a few examples.

[par4dcourse]

Please be respectful if you want replies

 

Ok, very respectably, fuck allah in the left ear, and your child molesting war monger muhammed pbuh (pigshit blown up hisass). Respectfully of course.

[buffettphan]

I'd like to see Thumby and Eemann try to convert each other.

 

 

EDIT: It would be interesting to test if the entire internet could hold that much bullshit without crashing.

 

 

 

 

And just to make Florduh happy, they also should be mudwrestling at the same time.

[Thought2Much]

I'd like to see Thumby and Eemann try to convert each other.

 

 

EDIT: It would be interesting to test if the entire internet could hold that much bullshit without crashing.

 

 

 

 

And just to make Florduh happy, they also should be mudwrestling at the same time.

 

Of course, Eemaan would have to wear a niqab, or a burkha, or some other ridiculous garment.

[florduh]

Thank you for thinking of my needs, buffettphan.

[Eemaan]

Please be respectful if you want replies

 

Why should we be respectful, Eemaan? This forum was not designed for you. It was set up specifically for people who want to express their frustrations with religion.

 

If you want Me to believe in your god, your god will have to appear to Me in person. There are currently no other scenarios that I would accept. The Qur'an is just a book to Me, and I prefer personal experience to people who make claims but cannot back them up with physical evidence.

If you yourself want to believe in God, if you yourself feel that there is a God. I have been though this discussion before in this forum, if God would appear to people, everyone would be believers. Then the world would be wonderful, no starving children, no poor people, no pain, etc. But this world is a test. God made you perfect yet you with what He has given you, choose to deny Him. It is a test, so don't expect The Almighty to appear to you because we won't even be able to take it. When prophet Musa (I might be mistaken, it might have been another prophet) asked to see God, God first came to the mountain (sorry I don't have the full story) and the mountain trembled down. Do you think you could take it.........

 

Ok they don't need to be respectful if they don't want to. I will as a member of the forum try my best to be respectful and not be rude. There are mnay forums designed specially for a group of people, and I have seen Islamic forums designed for Muslims. Occasionally there will be some non Muslim dude coming in with critizism, or sometimes to learn. In any case, they don't get rude harsh words thrown at them.

[Eemaan]

Whether she belongs to your own nation or to the nation of an enemy, whether she follows your religion or belongs to some other religion or has no religion at all.

 

Belongs huh?

It does not say "belong to a man". Even a man belongs to a nation. LOL

[pratt]

must love the mods,,,

 

woo woo

[Eemaan]

Whether she belongs to your own nation or to the nation of an enemy, whether she follows your religion or belongs to some other religion or has no religion at all.

 

Belongs huh?

 

Yep, I'm definitely never going to be an muslim.

 

Eemaan, this is what i was referring to before. If a woman is considered the property of a man, then you should know better than to expect him to treat her properly and respect her.

 

Let me explain something here. I belong to myself. I make all of my own decisions, and I accept the consequences, good or bad, of any decision that I make. I have the right to choose who I will and won't marry. I have the right to get a divorce. I have the right to learn what I want to, and I have the right to work wherever I want. I also have the right, respected by my partner, to make my own decisions, voice my own opinions, and have an equal say in major decisions affecting our lives. Not only that, but my rights are protected. I am a free agent. I "belong" to NO ONE.

 

Yeahhh me too, I belong to myself, and everything else you have written I have a right to as well.