The Love Machine Is Broken

[Guest Valk0010]

Really? I thought love and hate were the two sides of the same coin. Can you please explain?

I have a younger brother, that is a conmen. I think he is a piece of shit and a poor excuse for a human being. But I would still give him kidney if he needed it. I don't particularly love him because of what he has done. But I love him enough that if I could I would save his life. I think in my heart of hearts I have more hate for him then I do love. That is not what is normally considered hate, nor is it really love. Really supposedly the concepts of love and hate or like black and white. Really there various shades of gray. There are instances where they are the two sides of the same coin, but most of the time they aren't.

[Galien]

I learned the hard way that the opposite of love is not hate, its indifference. Indifference is not something I have ever really understood, but my ex husbands family are masters of it. To hate someone, they have to matter.

[Galien]

I personally think it's all about choices. We all choose to do and respond the way we do. The person who reads a response chooses to respond the way they do. Not everyone will agree with the choices. And, as exampled by myself, the choice of wording was obviously poorly chosen.

 

The image can be destroyed quickly. And it can be remade. This process leads to learning. In choosing my actions with Deva and risking destroying it with the rest of you, I learned to re-evaluate the approach before posting. That the shock value of the offence will sometime create a large enough negative reaction that any intent was lost, or better put one person's good intentions is another person's insult. I screwed up. And Deva, I am sorry I screwed up. Mistakes lead to learning.

 

I thought what you said was fair enough Stryper. I have had times in here where people have said stuff too me and depending usually on whatever else is happening in my life I have gone into orbit. I have a terrible temper, and sometimes if just the right button is hit I will lose my shit all over the place. I did it just this week and destroyed a friendship because I took something the wrong way. There was every reason for me to believe what was said was meant to be an insult but that is not what was meant. I turned the full fury of my wrath at this stupid world on an individual who did not deserve it and the loss of his friendship was the result.

 

No one likes to be told they are being a douchebag, even when they are. That doesn't mean it is okay to get so bloody angry with the world we perceive everything as some kind of a threat. That just cuts us off from good possibilities, and although there are periods of timein life where we need to isolate ourselves for our own mental health, too much of it is not healthy. It pushes us into a place where we can become more and more bitter and lonely and obsessed with what we don't get instead of remembering what we could be giving others.

 

I have PTSD, I react like this all the time. I have a pretty high anger level and a deep well of disappointment on the things I have msised out on in life. If I allow myself to wallow in that, I will become so bloody awful to be around that I will miss out on even more. It's a big struggle, but one worth winning, every day.

[stryper]

I learned the hard way that the opposite of love is not hate, its indifference. Indifference is not something I have ever really understood, but my ex husbands family are masters of it. To hate someone, they have to matter.

 

I would agree with this. I think Ave Q said it best. :sings: "The more you rove someone, the more you want to kill them."

 

It was like that with my father. As a child I loved him. As a teen I hated him. Then as an adult I tried the loving approach again. Now, I simply don't care. However, by letting go of the cycle and just accepting that he was an ass as growing up has relaxed me in ways I didn't realize. He did the best he could, but he will never be the what I expected a dad to be.

 

 

 

 

I thought what you said was fair enough Stryper. I have had times in here where people have said stuff too me and depending usually on whatever else is happening in my life I have gone into orbit. I have a terrible temper, and sometimes if just the right button is hit I will lose my shit all over the place. I did it just this week and destroyed a friendship because I took something the wrong way. There was every reason for me to believe what was said was meant to be an insult but that is not what was meant. I turned the full fury of my wrath at this stupid world on an individual who did not deserve it and the loss of his friendship was the result.

 

No one likes to be told they are being a douchebag, even when they are. That doesn't mean it is okay to get so bloody angry with the world we perceive everything as some kind of a threat. That just cuts us off from good possibilities, and although there are periods of timein life where we need to isolate ourselves for our own mental health, too much of it is not healthy. It pushes us into a place where we can become more and more bitter and lonely and obsessed with what we don't get instead of remembering what we could be giving others.

 

I have PTSD, I react like this all the time. I have a pretty high anger level and a deep well of disappointment on the things I have msised out on in life. If I allow myself to wallow in that, I will become so bloody awful to be around that I will miss out on even more. It's a big struggle, but one worth winning, every day.

 

I would have to disagree with the bolded. It is okay to experience the emotions. If you are angry about something there is a reason for it. Sometimes you need to get through the emotions first and fix the trigger later.

 

The problem with experience emotions is knowing when to stop. That's been one of my problems as well. Letting myself feel the emotions but not acting on them and calming myself before I do. It can be very hard. There is a catharsis is punching a wall, there is also a broken hand and sometimes a hole in the wall.

[Denyoz]

I have a younger brother, that is a conmen. I think he is a piece of shit and a poor excuse for a human being. But I would still give him kidney if he needed it. I don't particularly love him because of what he has done. But I love him enough that if I could I would save his life. I think in my heart of hearts I have more hate for him then I do love. That is not what is normally considered hate, nor is it really love. Really supposedly the concepts of love and hate or like black and white. Really there various shades of gray. There are instances where they are the two sides of the same coin, but most of the time they aren't.

 

Thanks Valk, now I understand what you meant. I agree with you, and I can add it to what I was trying to say when I mentioned that we were both good and evil. We are a mixture of the two, a shade of grey. I know what you mean, I love and I hate my ex-wife. Sometimes I want to kill her, but when she dies, I will cry because she is the mother of two of my kids, and a significant part of my life experience. Something will die within me when she passes away.

[Denyoz]

Ok, so I spent the evening last night on this thread, puking out how evil I was and my inability to love my loved-ones.

 

This morning I wake up, come down the stairs, and my 6-year-old son was standing there in his pajamas, and looked at me straight in the eyes and said:

 

"If there is a snake near you, standing next to you, it's because it's trying to measure you. The snake stands next to you, measures you, to see whether or nor it can eat you."

 

I looked at him, couldn't believe what I was hearing. So I just said: "Really, a snake?"

 

He said: "Yeah, a snake, standing next to you, to measure you, to see if it can eat you." Then he added: "This is what we learned at school yesterday."

 

Then I breathed a sigh of relief and said: "Oh, you're talking about the python, right, that big big snake?"

 

He said: "Yeah, it can eat you. Well it can eat me, I'm not sure if it can eat you, but mommy... no, she's too big." lol

 

Now if I was a Christian, this would definitely be a God moment where God is talking to you through somebody else. Surprising coincidence that he said that, it makes me wonder...

[TheBluegrassSkeptic]

To me, I don't think "love" exists.

 

Affection? Yes.

 

Empathy? Yes.

 

Both of these above can and do develop into very intense states of being. I think that is where they get lumped together under the term "love". I've never loved. But I've been extremely affectionate and empathetic to specific people in my life (lovers, children, weiner dog, etc).

 

That's my two cents.

[asanerman]

Ok, so I spent the evening last night on this thread, puking out how evil I was and my inability to love my loved-ones.

...............

 

Now if I was a Christian, this would definitely be a God moment where God is talking to you through somebody else. Surprising coincidence that he said that, it makes me wonder...

 

At the moment I'm a "trustful agnostic" --at the moment!

 

What that means is that although I remain ignorant about the totality which is my ultimate context, I have chosen to accept my life in 'wonder' as a gift to be lived responsibly.

(contrary to New Age thinking, I had absolutely nothing to do with my being nor when things will ultimately end for me).

 

While I understand the function of the word "God" (to serve as an indispensable function of expressing an affirmation of the trustworthiness of the unknown source in which we move and have being) I truly have no clue to its definition!

 

When I'm done with the "puking" (my elusive quest for salvation), my cruci-fiction-- fatigued by the battle to be saved--I give up the resistance to trust myself to the happenings which interweave my energies to form this creature that I am and find an inner and outer relaxation of previously bound energies that have been within from the very beginning, hidden only by my resistance.

 

Graceful living is a happening--"the liberation of previously bound energies for projects and relationships which are satisfying to the maturing self." (Sam Keen). A sobering gift rather that a reward--a "wondering."

 

Along with responsible wonder and trust comes novelty rather than law, possibility rather than necessity.

 

The political rhetoric; "In God We Trust" or the religious rhetoric; "You must believe in the Lord Jesus Christ to be saved" functions to demean the gracefulness of a life of wonder.

 

"Show up, Pay attention. Tell the truth. Stay open to the outcome." ~The Fourfold Path to Enlightenment of the Zuni People

[TotalWreck]

What do we call a human that does not believe or feel love right now?..... Tired, worn out, hurt by the past, disappointed, disillusioned by the world, let down by the god he believed in, lonely and depressed and overwhelmed by life..... but one who also fights to stay positive and fight the negative the best way he knows how and wants to grasp anything that might give hope of some kind...... that there may be a pleasant future in store .... something to hold on to..... to live for.......

 

You just described me perfectly - this is exactly how I have felt over the last three years and especially the past year. I'm ALL of those things you mentioned; burnt out from life BUT fighting and keep going anyway because I know this life might be all there is. So as miserable and tired as I am most of the time, I keep going trying to find ANYTHING that brings even a moment of happiness here and there. I spent so much time during Christianity thinking WAAAAAAY too much that it almost drove me crazy and now I'm not even trying to find explanations for things that can't really be answered - I'm just trying to survive.

[Denyoz]

You just described me perfectly - this is exactly how I have felt over the last three years and especially the past year. I'm ALL of those things you mentioned; burnt out from life BUT fighting and keep going anyway because I know this life might be all there is. So as miserable and tired as I am most of the time, I keep going trying to find ANYTHING that brings even a moment of happiness here and there. I spent so much time during Christianity thinking WAAAAAAY too much that it almost drove me crazy and now I'm not even trying to find explanations for things that can't really be answered - I'm just trying to survive.

 

Well then I'm with you! I'm not going to let the snake eat me.

[TotalWreck]

You just described me perfectly - this is exactly how I have felt over the last three years and especially the past year. I'm ALL of those things you mentioned; burnt out from life BUT fighting and keep going anyway because I know this life might be all there is. So as miserable and tired as I am most of the time, I keep going trying to find ANYTHING that brings even a moment of happiness here and there. I spent so much time during Christianity thinking WAAAAAAY too much that it almost drove me crazy and now I'm not even trying to find explanations for things that can't really be answered - I'm just trying to survive.

 

Well then I'm with you! I'm not going to let the snake eat me.

 

Good!

 

You remind me a lot of myself, in the sense that I would always be wondering numerous things like "Does love really exist? Is the spirit real? Is this life all there is? Are we all just molecules/science? etc". Now don't get me wrong, I still do wonder these things from time to time, but for the most part I've just let it all go and stopped thinking about it too much because I know I will never get the answers I'm looking for. All the pondering just drives me crazy. So since this world and life may be all we have, I just try to enjoy whatever few things bring me happiness, even though I have more days that are shitty than good. My main thing now is trying to cope with the fact that our "wizard in the sky" doesn't exist to help us out and the WE have to do everything ourselves. I'm still angry that I wasted so much time believing in something that doesn't exist and I feel empty a lot of the time too, but I TRY my best to keep moving forward.

[Denyoz]

You remind me a lot of myself, in the sense that I would always be wondering numerous things like "Does love really exist? Is the spirit real? Is this life all there is? Are we all just molecules/science? etc". Now don't get me wrong, I still do wonder these things from time to time, but for the most part I've just let it all go and stopped thinking about it too much because I know I will never get the answers I'm looking for. All the pondering just drives me crazy. So since this world and life may be all we have, I just try to enjoy whatever few things bring me happiness, even though I have more days that are shitty than good. My main thing now is trying to cope with the fact that our "wizard in the sky" doesn't exist to help us out and the WE have to do everything ourselves. I'm still angry that I wasted so much time believing in something that doesn't exist and I feel empty a lot of the time too, but I TRY my best to keep moving forward.

 

Thanks Total. Did you watch the video "Matter Does Not Exist" post #63 ? Maybe the "wizard" is the living energy that matter seems to be made of.

 

Have you ever experienced something unexplainable?

[TotalWreck]

Thanks Total. Did you watch the video "Matter Does Not Exist" post #63 ? Maybe the "wizard" is the living energy that matter seems to be made of.

 

Have you ever experienced something unexplainable?

 

I haven't watched the video yet - I'll do that tonight.

 

YES, I have experienced MANY things throughout my life that were unexplainable and so bizarre that I felt that something "supernatural" had taken place, and when I believed in god, I thought that it was "god" that made those things happen. Now I have no fucking idea what made those things happen and that's exactly one of the things that drives me crazy - if there's no god, then how did those bizarre things happen? I find it hard to believe that some of these things were just coincidences. Again, those unexplainable things and not knowing what caused them drives me crazy!

[Denyoz]

Have you ever experienced something unexplainable?

YES, I have experienced MANY things throughout my life that were unexplainable and so bizarre that I felt that something "supernatural" had taken place, and when I believed in god, I thought that it was "god" that made those things happen. Now I have no fucking idea what made those things happen and that's exactly one of the things that drives me crazy - if there's no god, then how did those bizarre things happen? I find it hard to believe that some of these things were just coincidences. Again, those unexplainable things and not knowing what caused them drives me crazy!

 

I knew it!!! You ARE like me. I have just read the last three topics you have started. You obviously don't believe in the Christian God any more, and that's great. But you have witnessed things in your life that science cannot explain, right?

 

Please watch the 3½ minute video (it's really short) and tell me if you like it.

[TotalWreck]

I knew it!!! You ARE like me. I have just read the last three topics you have started. You obviously don't believe in the Christian God any more, and that's great. But you have witnessed things in your life that science cannot explain, right?

 

Please watch the 3½ minute video (it's really short) and tell me if you like it.

 

I just watched that video - wow, that is interesting! Have you read this guy's book? I wonder what it has to say (it only has two reviews on Amazon, but they're both five star reviews).

 

My question is this though: If we are all energy, how do we make this "energy" work to our advantage? Or am I jumping the gun and we still have a long way to go to figure that out?

 

I'm going to go watch more of this guy's videos. If anything else, it's interesting!

[Denyoz]

Please watch the 3½ minute video (it's really short) and tell me if you like it.

I just watched that video - wow, that is interesting! Have you read this guy's book?.

 

My question is this though: If we are all energy, how do we make this "energy" work to our advantage? Or am I jumping the gun and we still have a long way to go to figure that out?

 

All right! I'm so glad you watched it and that you enjoyed it. No, I have not read any of his books. I watched some of his videos though and some others about experiments that were done with sub-atomic particles. Apparently, electrons know whether or not you are watching them, as if they were conscious. Here is a nice little video that explains this mystery, which still baffles the minds of physicists.

 

[TotalWreck]

I have to be honest: when I watched the video above and more videos from that other guy, they didn't go in the direction I was hoping they'd go. I was hoping to learn more about this "engery" and how we can make it benefit us, but instead I feel like I'm in a physics class.

[Denyoz]

I have to be honest: when I watched the video above and more videos from that other guy, they didn't go in the direction I was hoping they'd go. I was hoping to learn more about this "engery" and how we can make it benefit us, but instead I feel like I'm in a physics class.

 

Well, you mentioned above that not knowing what caused the unexplainable things in your life drives you crazy. Maybe that's what this energy does: bizarre, supernatural, unexplainable things. And all the atoms in your body are made of this energy. Pretty cool, no?

[LivingLife]

This really is no brainer IMO. Whatever the device or method used to measure, the device itself becomes part of the experiment. A simple volt meter in circuit diverts flow of some electrons to cause and electromagnetic effect on the coil of the device whereas the amp meter is part of the circuit.

 

 

The effect of the volt meter is negligible and the amp meter actually introduces a load or resistance in series with the lamps.

 

What the video does not explain is how the observation is made and is certainly electrons are not IMO self aware.

 

A tong meter that uses induction of the magnetic field surrounding a conductor does not really affect the electron flow or does it?

Of course the latter really only works with AC where the current is travelling two and fro hence creating an induction in the clamp section. Even then this magnetic field will be marginally affected by the introduction of the clamp as it changes the electromagnetic properties of the conductor.

 

To use this device you have to separate the cores of a cable as the magnetic effect is cancelled out by each other (theoretically) but there is what we term loss.

 

The reality is that electrons and how they work and interact are still a theory albeit a solid one.

 

Another aspect of electrons is "observed" in old consumption meters, the one with the rotating disc. The way this works is that power passes through a electro magnet and the magnet inducts what is known as eddy currents (circular) in the disc. These generate a magnetic field in opposition to the applied magnetic field and from this you get the rotation of the disc that then drives the gears of the meter to measure consumption.

 

Of course these days it is all digital but the principles are the same.

 

No eye has ever seen an electron not even with and electron microscope yet we have the Hadron Collider looking deeper to the actual make up of the atom which we also have not really observed. Now we are looking for quarks and stuff smaller than electrons.

 

Science is phun.

[Margee]

This really is no brainer IMO.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Science is phun.

 

 

 

No Brainer LL? You are so freakin' smart!!! O.k., so what does all the above mean?

 

Deny,TotalWreck...did you get this? LL...help!!

Somebody explain this to me as the grade 9 person that I am!!

I want to learn how to do all kinds of magic tricks right now with this 'energy'!!

 

Totalwreck and Deny understands my personality.....

 

I think TW, Deny and I have triplet personalities!!

 

Somebody, tell me more!! Make it simple!! Hurry, I want to become a calm, cool.....love machine......

[Galien]

Trust men to make an interesting subject boring.......

 

I knew they didn't understand it....

[Denyoz]

Whatever the device or method used to measure, the device itself becomes part of the experiment.

 

...certainly electrons are not IMO self aware.

 

I think the above quote summarizes LivingLife's point.

 

Then why were the physicists baffled?

 

The video doesn't say that further experiments were made. But I have just read more on the subject and it seems like the conclusion is that: there are different interpretations of why this is happening.

[Eugene39]

Denyoz, Saw this today and thought of you. Hope you find it interesting.

 

http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2012/05/07/the-case-for-naturalism/

 

Eugene

[Crow]

I just watched the God on the Brain documentary, and read all the replies in the Ah, Looks Like It Was All In Our Heads After All thread. Thanks blackpudd and all who have contributed, it has been a most interesting read. It has also stirred something within me that I would like to share.

 

What strikes me the most on the thread are these two comments:

 

When you experience love do you see it a trick of the brain like a phantom arm?

 

That's all well and good but are you saying *love* ain't real man? You don't wanna be known as the guy who doesn't really love...do you? You know...looooooooove? Love's real. Don't deny it. Therefore it can be said "Whatever you feel...is real." ™

 

Whether or not mwc was joking is hard for me to say, but the question Antlerman raises is of utmost importance. Is the experience of love just a trick of the brain? No one answered this question directly, either because we think that everybody knows that love is real so there is no need to answer, or that the real truth would be too hard to swallow. I can't let this question go unanswered because, to me, the answer is obvious and it needs to be stated plainly:

 

The experience of love IS a trick of the brain.

 

Let's be honest with each other. We have made a god out of Love. But that god does not exist any more than the Christian god. Look around you and look inside, it's easy to see that what we call love is just a dance we do to manipulate each other, to induce pleasurable feelings in one another in order to get what we want. Love, as we understand it, is nothing. The feeling of love is a chemical reaction, part of the brain's reward system. Love is not a god, and it's not a spiritual entity either. Love is not real. And unconditional love is even more unreal.

 

And I'm not some isolated freak who lives in the woods. I'm a father, a husband, a son, a brother, a brother-in-law, a cousin, an uncle, a neighbour, a fully integrated member of society who maintains multiple effective relationships with dozens if not hundreds of other human beings. If I have learned one thing in this life, it's this: love is not real. What we call "love" is a complex game of reward that we play subtly and often unconsciously.

 

I know this because since my brain's reward system broke down, I cannot love anymore. I know how to act in a "loving" way, but I don't get any pleasure from it. All I get is some intellectual satisfaction if I put the right thoughts in my mind, but there is no more free gift of intense feeling of affection and care. That was just a release of dopamine in my brain and now it's gone. Da luv machine is broken! (and I'm not talking about sex).

 

It was just a stupid machine after all.

 

I realize the beginning of this thread is older, but I would like to contribute the understanding of love I have arrived at over the past decade.

 

While I'm early on in the deconversion process, I don't expect my understanding of love to change.

 

Love is not infatuation, or sex, or a cuddliness. Love is not a chemical induced feeling, people call these things love, and in my view they are confused. All that Hallmark stuff is so much bullshit.

 

Love is a decision. Love is holding her hair while she pukes her brains out into the toilet. Love is being so angry at the other that you want to rip their head off, but you don't because that would violate your choice to love the other. Love can be defined for me by when the choice to love is being tested the most. Ultimately, for me love is a rational thing and has little basis in emotion.

 

I think I experience some sort of anhedonia as well, was seeing a shrink several years ago and he mentioned it. Lust, fear, anger, humor, meaness, physical pleasure, pleasure at success- I usually am able to experience those emotions. It is very rare for me to feel joy, pity, compassion, happiness. I emulate them for others, but almost never feel them. I don't really get it when lots of people talk about feeling love. I've never felt "love." I do feel comfort and friendship. But, I think emotions are, for the most part, chemical.

 

My wife struggles with me feeling this way, but has come to accept my definition of love. I have made a choice that I value another more than myself. I don't believe in unconditional love, but for all intents and purposes try to practice it. I.e., if I found my wife eating babies and selling poisoned apples, I would re-evaluate my decision to love her. Barring such events, I have chosen to love her. Same goes for my kids.

 

BTW, Fun fact: Spindle cells are thought to be part of the brain that generates emotion. We share spindle cells with many species of ape and whale. I find it very interesting that whales may experience emotion similar to humans.

[Denyoz]

Love is not infatuation, or sex, or a cuddliness. Love is not a chemical induced feeling, people call these things love, and in my view they are confused. All that Hallmark stuff is so much bullshit.

 

Love is a decision.

 

Thank you Crow for sharing your insight on this topic.

 

"Love is not a feeling, it's a decision" : I remember saying this to my wife. And as far as I know, it's conditional, like you said. If she would start chasing me around the house with a knife, it would certainly affect my decision to love her.

 

Maybe I should close this thread with this phrase:

 

The Love Machine is Now Fixed, and it was not a stupid machine after all.

 

I'm re-opening my heart to deep "consciousness" now, I'm into the Ex-Christian Spirituality forum if you want to join us. (You too Eugene39.)