Denyoz Posted April 25, 2012 Share Posted April 25, 2012 I just watched the God on the Brain documentary, and read all the replies in the Ah, Looks Like It Was All In Our Heads After All thread. Thanks blackpudd and all who have contributed, it has been a most interesting read. It has also stirred something within me that I would like to share. What strikes me the most on the thread are these two comments: When you experience love do you see it a trick of the brain like a phantom arm? That's all well and good but are you saying *love* ain't real man? You don't wanna be known as the guy who doesn't really love...do you? You know...looooooooove? Love's real. Don't deny it. Therefore it can be said "Whatever you feel...is real." ™ Whether or not mwc was joking is hard for me to say, but the question Antlerman raises is of utmost importance. Is the experience of love just a trick of the brain? No one answered this question directly, either because we think that everybody knows that love is real so there is no need to answer, or that the real truth would be too hard to swallow. I can't let this question go unanswered because, to me, the answer is obvious and it needs to be stated plainly: The experience of love IS a trick of the brain. Let's be honest with each other. We have made a god out of Love. But that god does not exist any more than the Christian god. Look around you and look inside, it's easy to see that what we call love is just a dance we do to manipulate each other, to induce pleasurable feelings in one another in order to get what we want. Love, as we understand it, is nothing. The feeling of love is a chemical reaction, part of the brain's reward system. Love is not a god, and it's not a spiritual entity either. Love is not real. And unconditional love is even more unreal. And I'm not some isolated freak who lives in the woods. I'm a father, a husband, a son, a brother, a brother-in-law, a cousin, an uncle, a neighbour, a fully integrated member of society who maintains multiple effective relationships with dozens if not hundreds of other human beings. If I have learned one thing in this life, it's this: love is not real. What we call "love" is a complex game of reward that we play subtly and often unconsciously. I know this because since my brain's reward system broke down, I cannot love anymore. I know how to act in a "loving" way, but I don't get any pleasure from it. All I get is some intellectual satisfaction if I put the right thoughts in my mind, but there is no more free gift of intense feeling of affection and care. That was just a release of dopamine in my brain and now it's gone. Da luv machine is broken! (and I'm not talking about sex). It was just a stupid machine after all. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vigile Posted April 25, 2012 Share Posted April 25, 2012 Shit, I opened this thread thinking it was a euphemism. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Galien Posted April 25, 2012 Share Posted April 25, 2012 So what about when there is no reward but you still do it anyway because it is for the benefit of the other? Or what about when it costs you a lot on a deep level but you still do it for the other person? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LivingLife Posted April 25, 2012 Share Posted April 25, 2012 IMO love as we experience it changes radically as we grow older. Even at 40+ I noticed this. The infatuation with someone we had in our late teens and 20's was the trick played to mate and reproduce. I could never go overboard for a young hot babe like I did back then. Were I that way inclined, I now know what buttons to press to get what I want which is sex. At 54 I am too old to be bothered, too much like hard work. I still love my wife and kids, I have lost my love for certain family members as now it is a two way street and betrayal now is something I do not forgive. When you have formed the nuclear family unit the love changes, priorities change. I don't think the love machine is broke, it has simply evolved. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderator Margee Posted April 25, 2012 Moderator Share Posted April 25, 2012 So what about when there is no reward but you still do it anyway because it is for the benefit of the other? Or what about when it costs you a lot on a deep level but you still do it for the other person? Galien, you have made a very good point here. I wish you would expand on it? I think you are saying that one would continue to do the 'right thing' to benefit another person and maybe in this way..there is still a small reward (that might be felt in the brain) for doing the right thing? Thanks my friend. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deva Posted April 25, 2012 Share Posted April 25, 2012 IMO love as we experience it changes radically as we grow older. Even at 40+ I noticed this. The infatuation with someone we had in our late teens and 20's was the trick played to mate and reproduce. I could never go overboard for a young hot babe like I did back then. Were I that way inclined, I now know what buttons to press to get what I want which is sex. At 54 I am too old to be bothered, too much like hard work. Totally agree that its a trick played by nature. Its something really powerful in your 20s & even 30s. Then, for me, that was pretty much it. I am about your age, and the only way I would get with someone now was if there was a powerful financial incentive. Yeah, that sounds bad, but I am tired. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderator Margee Posted April 25, 2012 Moderator Share Posted April 25, 2012 I have lost my love for certain family members as now it is a two way street and betrayal now is something I do not forgive. I feel like this also LL... What is 'betrayal' to you? What types of betrayal do you not put up with anymore? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LivingLife Posted April 25, 2012 Share Posted April 25, 2012 I have lost my love for certain family members as now it is a two way street and betrayal now is something I do not forgive. I feel like this also LL... What is 'betrayal' to you? What types of betrayal do you not put up with anymore? Knives in the back. It all pretty much went south with my mom's death. My mom was still dying and my sister wanted to start sorting her stuff out, that pissed me off intensely. I had built her a cosy apartment and had cared for her for over 5 years. Then after she died, I am the executor, she started making demands I sell her house asap and colluded with my brother, I got threatening lawyers letters. Not only that, the few odds and ends they gave my mom they took back even before the funeral. The will was to be split 3 ways and the house is only going for ZAR650k and I still cannot sell it despite many offers, no financing. That is about USD65k. Not once did they contribute to the building or the upkeep or anything. So now when the house is sold, I am claiming 5 years restitution for rental I could have earned had it been rented out plus I am claiming admin fees for letting her house and taking her to the doctors when she needed etc. So when they get their pittance, they will know not to fuck with their little brother. We have not spoken in nearly two years and I personally do not give a shit. My mom and I were very close. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Denyoz Posted April 25, 2012 Author Share Posted April 25, 2012 So what about when there is no reward but you still do it anyway because it is for the benefit of the other? Or what about when it costs you a lot on a deep level but you still do it for the other person? Good question Galien. Are you talking about unconditional love? Helping someone and expecting nothing in return? The closest thing I have found to this is the nurturing of a parent towards a child. A parent will go out of his way to nourish and protect a child, often at the detriment of his own life. But I've noticed the same thing in animals. We call it instinct. Why is it called love in one instance and instinct in the other? Both are the same thing. But even there, I'm pretty sure the parent gets a slight dopamine rush in return. Why would we do something for the other if there was no reward in it for us? You would have to give an example. In anything I can think of, there is always some kind of reward for the person that does the "sacrifice". We often do things to avoid an even greater loss, which is still a form of reward. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Denyoz Posted April 25, 2012 Author Share Posted April 25, 2012 I don't think the love machine is broke, it has simply evolved. Thank you LivingLife for your valuable contribution to this thread. I really love like reading your comments. I forgot to mention, when I say "the love machine is broken" I'm talking about anhedonia, which is not a disorder per se, but a characteristic of many disorders, such as schizophrenia and depression. I mentioned it on the other thread but forgot to mention it here. The inability to experience pleasure from activities we usually associate with loving and caring, is thought to be caused by the breakdown of the brain's reward system. It is real, and I'm glad there is a term for it, because otherwise I would really think that I have become evil. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderator Margee Posted April 25, 2012 Moderator Share Posted April 25, 2012 . A parent will go out of his way to nourish and protect a child, often at the detriment of his own life. But I've noticed the same thing in animals. We call it instinct. Why is it called love in one instance and instinct in the other? Deny, you have made a very good point here about love and instinct...never thought of that before.... I will be very interested in hearing how one of our highly intelligent members respond to this........ Obviously, this would have to do with natural evolution... this instinct you mention...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Denyoz Posted April 25, 2012 Author Share Posted April 25, 2012 I will be very interested in hearing how one of our highly intelligent members respond to this........ lol... Hmmm I wonder who you are talking about... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LivingLife Posted April 25, 2012 Share Posted April 25, 2012 Denyoz, I think this concept of unconditional love as you put it really only extends to your immediate family and namely your kids. Nephews and nieces to a lesser extent and of course to strangers unless they are in dire need like in a motor accident, one would stop if you were first on the scene but pass by if assistance was already being given. No one really gives to the poor in general and hold onto the little that they have. The tribal caring which we probably all came out of is long gone. Certain roles were expected and the whole village shared in the kill of the day. Few hunters these days will share their venison of their latest trophy with the neighbours. IMO it is an evolutionary thing of survival of the fittest and making sure that your offspring get first dibs. The church in some way provides this primitive village structure but really is no more than a club you pay subs to each month I don't think the love machine is broke, it has simply evolved. Thank you LivingLife for your valuable contribution to this thread. I really love like reading your comments. Lol thanks I forgot to mention, when I say "the love machine is broken" I'm talking about anhedonia, which is not a disorder per se, but a characteristic of many disorders, such as schizophrenia and depression. I mentioned it on the other thread but forgot to mention it here. The inability to experience pleasure from activities we usually associate with loving and caring, is thought to be caused by the breakdown of the brain's reward system. It is real, and I'm glad there is a term for it, because otherwise I would really think that I have become evil. Well the way you describe it, my machine is also broke but as I alluded to earlier, I think this is merely the evolution of growing older. I am sure your empathy is not gone but we have to dig deep as letting everything in the world that is fucked up affect us directly would be detrimental to our mental health. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderator Margee Posted April 25, 2012 Moderator Share Posted April 25, 2012 Well the way you describe it, my machine is also broke but as I alluded to earlier, I think this is merely the evolution of growing older. I am sure your empathy is not gone but we have to dig deep as letting everything in the world that is fucked up affect us directly would be detrimental to our mental health. I look to you as a highly intelligent person LL . I sure hope you stay on this thread with us for a bit..........I could use your 'wiseness' right now also. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Denyoz Posted April 25, 2012 Author Share Posted April 25, 2012 Totally agree that its a trick played by nature. Its something really powerful in your 20s & even 30s. Then, for me, that was pretty much it. I am about your age, and the only way I would get with someone now was if there was a powerful financial incentive. Yeah, that sounds bad, but I am tired. This is good to hear Deva, thanks for your honesty. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Denyoz Posted April 25, 2012 Author Share Posted April 25, 2012 Well the way you describe it, my machine is also broke but as I alluded to earlier, I think this is merely the evolution of growing older. I am sure your empathy is not gone but we have to dig deep as letting everything in the world that is fucked up affect us directly would be detrimental to our mental health. This phrase struck me. My empathy? I had to look it up: Aha! Here is is: Empathy: the intellectual identification of the thoughts, feelings, or state of another person. Thank you LL for the word empathy. Right on. I can intellectually identify with the thoughts, feelings or state of another person. I just hate it when my wife asks me: "Do you still have feelings for me?" The answer is no, but I can't say that. I think I love her, in the sense that I want her to be happy. But feelings? Nope. Sure, I get sexually aroused when she comes very close to me, but I wouldn't call that love, because I get aroused when any attractive person gets very close to me. So I know that's not what she means. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LivingLife Posted April 25, 2012 Share Posted April 25, 2012 The love we had when we were young has changed. It has matured. One of the main reasons for the success of our marriage, my wife is my best friend too. Early on I said I would not marry her unless we shacked up first. In fact we started out as friends with benefits and slowly fell in love. She broached the subject first and while driving simply said something is happening to me but said no more. When it came out she said she was falling in love with me. There was no bells and whistles but eventually folk could see it and it was real. Perhaps growing into it helped and of course when I married her, I was nearly 28 and she had just turned 24. I had slept with many girls before her and lust was the driver. Those relationships petered out quickly as the prime objective had been met, to have sex. I had already made up my mind I wanted to settle down so I had probably preconditioned myself to be more open to a relationship of depth. I was very into sports and so was she and she supported me in every way possible, we did everything together. When we got engaged, we went to look for the rings together so there was no on bended knee, I think I asked her to marry me another time while driving but was more along the lines of "do you want to get married?" Luckily she said yes and was not expecting the whole song and dance. We got engaged at her parents home which was a a long journey from where we stayed and I did do the the whole proposal proper and she said no jokingly and I started to get up said "well see ya" but we have been together 28+ years. Sometimes I will hug her from behind and whisper in her ear "I Love you" but we do not say that to each other often, we never had to. Now we are both "old farts" and have two lovely children. Perhaps us marrying late by even our standards, helped. We were together over two years before marrying. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Denyoz Posted April 25, 2012 Author Share Posted April 25, 2012 Is that you and your wife in the photo? Wow, you are both really attractive... better not get too close to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LivingLife Posted April 25, 2012 Share Posted April 25, 2012 Is that you and your wife in the photo? Wow, you are both really attractive... better not get too close to me. Thanks. Yup that was us ±27 years ago. We actually had an amazing vacation in our first jointly acquired new car and went to Cape Town. If you are interested, here is the FB page of the vacation pics. Mostly Cape Town and a bit of the journey back along what here is known as the Garden route. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deva Posted April 25, 2012 Share Posted April 25, 2012 Totally agree that its a trick played by nature. Its something really powerful in your 20s & even 30s. Then, for me, that was pretty much it. I am about your age, and the only way I would get with someone now was if there was a powerful financial incentive. Yeah, that sounds bad, but I am tired. This is good to hear Deva, thanks for your honesty. Deny, I have to admit I am feeling particularly down right now, since my job hunt of two years continues to go badly. However, even before my career troubles, I had no doubt in my mind that I would probably never marry again, and certainly not for "love" after I got divorced in '89. I did not rule out relationships, but my idealized picture of married life dissolved like an Alka Seltzer. Anyway, my theme song for many years was "Love Hurts" by Nazareth. That song was my actual life experience. Once I told this to my brother, who was happily married, and he was appalled. He said he hated that song (he is deceased now). A lot of people simply can't relate to a marriage gone completely totally wrong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Galien Posted April 25, 2012 Share Posted April 25, 2012 I think I was just born caring about people. Some people are. I have always felt we were all connected, like we are all the same person but separate if that makes any sense. That means I treat others is the way I would treat myself, or would want to be treated. My greatest lesson in love I learned from loving my sister. We grew up in appalling circumstances, but she is a wild feral person whereas I am a boring person who wants to do the right thing. I have been with her all the way, dealing with her addictions, her lies, her completely chaotic and terrible life. She suffers from terrible anxiety and just watching the hell her life has been tears my heart out. So many times she has let me down, ripped me off, hurt me. Thankfully now she is getting older she is settling down a bit, mainly due to her body starting to feel the effects of her years of addictions. She never got the love and nurture she needed from our parents, and that is a lot of the reason for who she is. So I give her what they never did, because every single person needs to feel of value, cared for in some way by at least one person. The world has become such an inward looking place and so many people feel left behind, unloved and unwanted. No one should have to live like that. I don't know what it is in me that makes me feel the love I do, certainly it is nothing logical because I have been treated so badly I should hate everyone. I used to think it was god but of course I don't think that anymore. We are all part of humanity, and for me how we treat each other is more important than anything and everything, because it makes our world the place it is. I get tired of people trying to reduce everything we are to some kind of chemical reaction or facet of evolution, but if that is what floats their boat fair enough. I always love the introduction to the movie Love Actually, people greeting each other in an airport lounge. I dont care what anyone tells me about money or status or power or even religion. At the end of our lives, what remains are the connections we have with each other and THAT is the most important thing. I have been through a lot of abuse, two nasty marriages, cult abuse, god knows what else, years of soul crushing depression, PTSD, but the greatest gift I have ever been given is the capacity to still love, even after all that. It is the only real difference I can make on the earth, and the thing I want to leave behind when I die, that people knew I loved them, that they had inherent value in my eyes, and that how I treated them was more important to me than anything else in my life. Despite all our flaws, all our stupidity, we all need to feel valued. Costs me nothing to value others. Costs them a lot if they think no one does. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Denyoz Posted April 26, 2012 Author Share Posted April 26, 2012 A lot of people simply can't relate to a marriage gone completely totally wrong. Well I can certainly relate to that. It's enough to make you swear to never love again. I hope you find a job you like, or some other way to keep money coming in. My empathy is with you, from the bottom of my intellect. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Galien Posted April 26, 2012 Share Posted April 26, 2012 A lot of people simply can't relate to a marriage gone completely totally wrong. Well I can certainly relate to that. It's enough to make you swear to never love again. I hope you find a job you like, or some other way to keep money coming in. My empathy is with you, from the bottom of my intellect. It is a terrible thing that some people are so totally destroyed in their inner person by a bad marriage that they can not risk loving again. Love sure does suck for the sensitive, you tend to love and trust so deeply and when that is violated it kills a part of you. My heart goes out to anyone so destroyed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lunaticheathen Posted April 26, 2012 Share Posted April 26, 2012 Love isn't real? Frankly, bullshit. A pile of mechanistic-thinking bullshit. That is all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Denyoz Posted April 26, 2012 Author Share Posted April 26, 2012 Love isn't real? Frankly, bullshit. A pile of mechanistic-thinking bullshit. That is all. Thank you lunaticheathen, I'll take that into consideration. I wish you would elaborate a bit more though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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