raoul Posted August 30, 2012 Share Posted August 30, 2012 How about 'it's not of anyone's freaking business especially the clergy'? And that other advice about him going to tell people something - that's odious to say the least. And of course he wants your wife to come to church. After all, the coffers must be filled no matter what, right? Sorry for the harsh tone but I have NO patience with them - none. I see through all of the bs now that I'm on the other side. In fact, even when I was still part of their cult I saw the bs but simply buried it in order to not make waves. They remind me of parasites. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
silentknight Posted August 30, 2012 Author Share Posted August 30, 2012 Thought2Much - I never saw him there, she always came with her child, but not her husband. Raoul - I agree, but I cannot (and would not) forbid her from going to church, and she asked him for advice on what to say when people ask about me. So, it's solicited advice. I do find the bit about working with me a little silly, as he's not really. He gave me a list of books, but whatever. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderator TrueFreedom Posted August 30, 2012 Moderator Share Posted August 30, 2012 I thought the advice he gave was pretty good for making things less awkward for her. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edie Posted August 30, 2012 Share Posted August 30, 2012 Actually, I think his advice is very sensible. He's sensitive to the fact you don't want to hear from everyone in the church. If your wife wants to speak to a woman in a similar situation, she may find this helpful. If his book list constitutes "working with you," then you might have got off very lightly in terms of being summoned back! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Akheia Posted August 30, 2012 Share Posted August 30, 2012 Um, I would be mortally offended if I were that other woman and found out my pastor had broken confidentiality by telling your wife to contact her. The appropriate course of action would be to ask your wife if it was okay if he spoke with another unnamed woman in the group to see if she wanted to talk to your wife about the mutually shared situation. That was really not okay at all. Oh and solicited or not, I don't see how it's going to be construed as anything but her dogging on you behind your back for her to tell the other congregants you're "struggling." Besides, it's not true. You're not "struggling." The only struggle you're facing right now is the emotional manipulations of those you should be most able to trust. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
silentknight Posted August 30, 2012 Author Share Posted August 30, 2012 To my wife's credit, she's completely transparent about her communications with him. At least she showed it to me. But I agree. They're in denial about the finality of my statement. Still under the "it's a phase, he'll see the error of his ways soon enough". I'm trying not to encourage that viewpoint, but at the same time showing that if there was "proof" I'd accept it. They don't seem to understand that I know there is no proof or else the religious would be screaming about it. Edit: As for the other woman of the church, her husband doesn't attend with her, so I'm not sure if it's common knowledge WHY he doesn't attend with her. I never asked. It could be that most people already know why he doesn't come, and the pastor was merely mentioning that he thinks her husband rejected faith AFTER they got married not before. If however, it's as you think it might be Akhea, then yes, that's douchey. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Akheia Posted August 30, 2012 Share Posted August 30, 2012 You're damn right we'd know if there were proof. You're safe there I'd say. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
★ Citsonga ★ Posted August 30, 2012 Share Posted August 30, 2012 Exactly. Christianity has had two millennia to produce proof, and yet there's still nothing. It's all emotional hype and nothing more. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
electech98 Posted August 31, 2012 Share Posted August 31, 2012 silentknight, your wife sounds a lot like my wife. Sometimes you just want to go out to your car, close the doors and windows, and just scream! I think it would cathartic. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ellwood Posted September 1, 2012 Share Posted September 1, 2012 silentknight, your wife sounds a lot like my wife. Sometimes you just want to go out to your car, close the doors and windows, and just scream! I think it would cathartic. Ditto guys. I am living all this stuff right now also. Meet at the grand canyon on Wednesday and have us a good scream? You know the one that the great flood carved out a few thousand years ago. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SusanStoHeli Posted September 4, 2012 Share Posted September 4, 2012 I'd go with a pillow - scream into that. Another time - we had a Bozo the Clown, and I beat him up for awhile. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
silentknight Posted September 4, 2012 Author Share Posted September 4, 2012 I don't get angry easily. (I don't think I'm repressing, I think I just developed a lot of patience dealing with my fundie step father). I don't find myself needing to scream. I do get frustrated, but it passes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SusanStoHeli Posted September 4, 2012 Share Posted September 4, 2012 I don't get angry easily either - but I do think it's repressed - I choose to call it frustration, when often it's really anger. Whatever it is - it can be nice to have a controlled vent to let it out. I don't need it more often than once in a few months or more. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
silentknight Posted September 4, 2012 Author Share Posted September 4, 2012 I don't get angry easily either - but I do think it's repressed - I choose to call it frustration, when often it's really anger. Whatever it is - it can be nice to have a controlled vent to let it out. I don't need it more often than once in a few months or more. I think I find other ways to vent. Posting here. Writing. Drawing. Talking to friends. They all let me release "frustration" and feel better without resorting to a good scream, or taking out anger on a person. That's all I need for the most part. If someone's sreaming at me that wouldn't generally work. But I'm more likely to get sad than mad. It may be un-manly, but I'd probably end up having a good cry. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ellwood Posted September 8, 2012 Share Posted September 8, 2012 Speaking of screaming, I had an engineer with Raytheon scream at me that Christianity IS the truth when I told him that when having to choose between truth and faith I would choose truth. Warm moment. I think he worked on cruise missiles by the way. So far my house is still standing. Posting here and reading posts daily has been FANTASTIC for getting me through this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
raoul Posted September 8, 2012 Share Posted September 8, 2012 Speaking of screaming, I had an engineer with Raytheon scream at me that Christianity IS the truth when I told him that when having to choose between truth and faith I would choose truth. Warm moment. I think he worked on cruise missiles by the way. So far my house is still standing. Posting here and reading posts daily has been FANTASTIC for getting me through this. Yeah, they're really warm and loving until you challenge them with a logical argument. Then look out! Run for the hills. Near the end of the book I just finished, The God Virus, the author says if you wanna see an example of their 'good news' watch some of the religious TV programs where a preacher is up there quoting the bible or whatever. But turn the sound off and just watch the facial expressions for a while. That says it all. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Akheia Posted September 8, 2012 Share Posted September 8, 2012 Yeah, Boyfriend!Jesus is a sniveling Pauly Shore... until you refuse his advances. Then he's the worst stalker terrorist ex on the planet. It doesn't take long at all for Christians to shed the weepy laying-at-your-door boyfriend Jesus when they realize it's not working, and pull out the Uzi-toting Jihad Jesus to frighten you into submission instead. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
silentknight Posted September 13, 2012 Author Share Posted September 13, 2012 No major updates. Just a small one. Yesterday my wife talked to one of her cousins on the phone. This is a cousin she hasn't talked to in years... not for any real reason, they just fell out of touch. He's an atheist, and his parents are agnostic. Anyway, they discussed life, etc. and caught up on stuff, and then he asked how I was doing. She said I was doing well, etc, and mentioned that I no longer believed. He told her to "give me a nice big pat on the back", and to tell me "welcome to the club". He then told her "maybe you'll join us some day". To my surprise she said "crazier things have happened" and laughed. Maybe she's finally starting to accept it. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super Moderator florduh Posted September 13, 2012 Super Moderator Share Posted September 13, 2012 He then told her "maybe you'll join us some day". To my surprise she said "crazier things have happened" and laughed. Maybe she's finally starting to accept it. That is a really good sign. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thought2Much Posted September 13, 2012 Share Posted September 13, 2012 He then told her "maybe you'll join us some day". To my surprise she said "crazier things have happened" and laughed. Maybe she's finally starting to accept it. That is a really good sign. I agree. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
roadrunner Posted September 13, 2012 Share Posted September 13, 2012 No major updates. Just a small one. Yesterday my wife talked to one of her cousins on the phone. This is a cousin she hasn't talked to in years... not for any real reason, they just fell out of touch. He's an atheist, and his parents are agnostic. Anyway, they discussed life, etc. and caught up on stuff, and then he asked how I was doing. She said I was doing well, etc, and mentioned that I no longer believed. He told her to "give me a nice big pat on the back", and to tell me "welcome to the club". He then told her "maybe you'll join us some day". To my surprise she said "crazier things have happened" and laughed. Maybe she's finally starting to accept it. Its a sign from God. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
silentknight Posted November 5, 2012 Author Share Posted November 5, 2012 Been awhile, but time for an update: Some family background: My wife's brother is rather religious. Up to this point I hadn't bothered telling him about my deconversion, because he lives pretty far away. We don't see him on a regular basis (though we do play WoW together most weeks). He has a friend who's a PK, and even more religious. We know the guy on facebook, and I've hung out with him a few times, but he's not really what I would call a close friend of mine. My wife's twin sister is not religious. In fact, when I told her I was no longer going to church and that I thought the christian religion was bogus she agreed with me. However, she's not ready to tell anyone in their family that she feels that way. Thus, I have her support personally, but she can't be on my side publicly. Anyway, over the weekend I decided to publicly change my "religion" on facebook to "Secular Humanism". I didn't think anyone would really notice, but was prepared if they did. However, the person who noticed was not who I suspected would. The PK noticed. He then quickly dashed off an email to my wife asking about me, and posted several things to his facebook page about how one can be "smart" and still be religious, etc. He told my wife I should look at them. Of course, this also lead to my brother in law being informed, since the PK is one of his best friends. They ended up chatting with my wife online for a couple hours about me. I found it a bit uncomfortable, but I didn't really see a good reason to object to it. Obviously it's something they'd want to discuss. While they were chatting I read the PKs posts, and replied with my own refutations and points of view. His general point was that you can't solely rely on science to know what's true, and that he believes in an absolute truth that only God/Jesus can provide. My point of view was that religion is full of crap, and that we don't have any better tool than science at this time. We went back and forth a few times until he finally said "We could poke holes in each others arguments forever, I'm calling it off here" After that I wrote an email to both of them explaining why I deconverted. The text follows: (redacted) said that you two were interested in seeing my email about deconversion. However, it’s been several months since then, and I’ve learned a lot in my studies of both religious and secular material and feel I’d rather write a new letter. I write this material merely to inform you of my stance, and not argue whether I’m right and you’re wrong. Some religious people cannot read the views of someone who does not believe their religion without taking offense. If this describes you, then do not read this email. However, if you’re willing to read my reasons why simply to understand my view (not necessarily agree), then this letter is for you. There seems to be the mistaken assumption that being a skeptic that rejects religion means that I think science has all the answers right now, and that I should in turn provide the alternative to religion. That is not my stance. There’s a lot about the universe we do not know. Science has a long way to go to learn all that, and it may not be possible for science to figure all that out. I freely admit this. So, let’s not bring up “science is flawed too”, because I’m not saying it isn’t. It’s a tool, and it’s all about how we use it. Science isn’t a religion. It doesn’t make demands of me. It’s just there to be used as we see fit. As for religion - Christianity specifically - let me explain why I left: For the past 30 years I’ve been a Christian. I was born a Christian, raised a Christian, etc. Being raised as a Christian we’re told that it’s the only right religion. We’re told Bible stories from a young age, and it’s built into our culture. We accept it, because we’re told it over and over from a young age. We trust our parents with our lives at that age, and so have no reason to doubt them. They in turn had no reason to doubt their parents when they were taught it themselves. Many of us go our entire lives this way - not really ever questioning the things our parents taught us as a child, or if we do, we simply look for ways to bolster our faith and ignore evidence to the contrary. I’ve never been a “hardcore” Christian. I was certainly a true believer, especially as a child, but I never based my behavior solely on religious instruction. Many Christian morals are common sense in a healthy society (whether society develops these morals without religion is a complex question. I believe it does, but it’s hard to prove this one way or the other with our history intertwined with religion so deeply). Recently I decided to examine the Christian faith with fresh eyes. I read everything I’ve read with the viewpoint that I was an outsider and that this material is to convince me that I should be a Christian. Reading the materials from this neutral view I found it all highly unbelievable. I found it no more acceptable than the Greek gods, or Norse, or any other thousands of defunct religious orders. The bible when I read it seems wholly human and wholly fallible. I see no divine spark among its pages. (You probably disagree, and I’m not trying to convince you to agree). Having come to the conclusion that the Bible is not a divinely inspired book, that leaves the entire religion out. Christianity is completely based on the Bible, if I do not accept the Bible, then there’s no point being a Christian. Of course, I’ve read many apologists too (or “theologians” if you prefer). The more of their works I read the less convinced I am that I have any reason to be a Christian. I can see how their words are reassuring if you already want a reason to believe. But they make no solid arguments. C.S Lewis particularly is disappointing in his book “Mere Christianity”. He doesn’t make a single solid point in the entire book. (Your mileage may vary, but that’s my opinion) This isn’t a big change in my life. I live the same way I did before, I simply don’t go to church anymore. However, I’m a lot happier now. My brain is no longer fighting this battle to accept the unbelievable. I can say that I don’t have the answers to the creation of all things, or if there’s any kind of life after death and be perfectly content with that. I don’t need to know, and it feels great. Is there a god? Who knows?! You may believe you do, but I don’t think you do. (Reminds me of “You keep using that word, I don’t think it means what you think it means.”) Either way, I’m done with religion. I don’t wish to argue about it, or discuss the nature of all things. I’ve spent months reading and watching videos, and I’m just done. I’m ready to go on with my life as before but sans religion, and I hope you all can respect that choice. You don’t have to agree, I just ask that you treat me as you always did, and not bring up religion every time we hang out. I’m calling for peace before the arguments even begin. Don’t try to bring me back, because it’s not going to work. Thanks. Sincerely, Matt 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
new2me Posted November 5, 2012 Share Posted November 5, 2012 That's a great email, Matt. If this guy argues with you after this email, then he's just being a big jerk. I guess I understand the reason Christians act like jerks about this though... it's because they feel obligated to help prevent you from going to hell, and because I'm sure it shakes their faith (at least a little) when they hear about people rejecting their faith because it just doesn't make sense. Good luck with the rest of the fallout from your Facebook "outing". You are brave! I'm not sure I'll ever tell my family or former church friends that I no longer believe. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Akheia Posted November 5, 2012 Share Posted November 5, 2012 Beautifully said, and it conveys that sense of an evolving viewpoint better than you might suspect it does. You sound damned tired of arguing and navel-gazing in it. I can't imagine how the PK could argue further after seeing this, but I suspect he will. The Christian mythos is filled with stories of people who once said exactly what you did--"Don't bother trying to get me back because I'm not coming back"--but who reconverted eventually. Those stories are told and retold and handed along at conventions and church revivals like currency of the soul. I don't think any true-blue evangelical really hears that plea and really listens to it. My Evil Ex never did. Like a lot of fundie men, he heard "no" as "maybe later." I'll bet that this PK will have a similar hearing problem. Consent isn't a real part of the faith--not for men, not for women, not for anybody. You can lie and ignore whatever you want if it's for a good cause. But it's still good you got things out into the open and tried to stop the battle before the armies have even massed. Hopefully he'll back off now. It was inexcusable that he talked about you behind your back for hours like that, inexcusable that he fired off his FB propaganda machine passive-aggressively attacking you like that, inexcusable that he demanded answers from and about you like that. But you're the evil bad guy! You ain't fucking him, didn't get sired by him, aren't in financial debt to him. You owe him nothing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrNo Posted November 5, 2012 Share Posted November 5, 2012 Great letter, silentknight. You've given me some ideas for if/when I come out of the prayer closet publicly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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