David Vs Goliath - Was David Really Such A Hero?

[OnceConvinced]

Even as a kid, a committed Christian, listening to the story and reading it myself, something never sat right with me about the whole David defeating Goliath story, but I could never quite pinpoint it. Now that I look critically at the bible… something I never did as a Christian because well… because you just don’t…! I just have to ask this question. Was David that great a hero in this story? Was his victory against Goliath really that impressive?

 

The answer is clearly no. In fact if anything, David sucker punched Goliath as it were. Goliath was expecting him to come at him with a sword, but instead David came at him with a sling, which let’s face it is a little like walking into a knife fight and pulling out a gun and shooting your opponent point blank in the head before he can even get within a few feet of you.

 

If this confrontation were to take place in this day and age, would be be hailing David for his impressive victory? Of course not! In fact we would be calling him a coward for taking a cheap shot. There is no honour in shooting a swordsman in the head with a projectile weapon, just as there is no honour in strapping explosives to your body and walking into a crowded place before detonating them. Back in David’s days it was meant to be Champion vs Champion. David was expected to come out and face Goliath as a champion would and take him on toe to toe, but he didn’t. Far from it.

 

David was a COWARD, nothing more. He knew beforehand what he was going to do and he knew there was no danger for him in going out there to face Goliath just as I would have no fear of climbing into a boxing ring with Mike Tyson intending on shooting him with a hand gun hidden in my trunks before he could get near enough to punch me.

 

What do you all think? Why do you think it is that Christians make heros over biblical characters who are often no better than the so-called bad guys?

[raoul]

Even as a kid, a committed Christian, listening to the story and reading it myself, something never sat right with me about the whole David defeating Goliath story, but I could never quite pinpoint it. Now that I look critically at the bible… something I never did as a Christian because well… because you just don’t…! I just have to ask this question. Was David that great a hero in this story? Was his victory against Goliath really that impressive?

 

The answer is clearly no. In fact if anything, David sucker punched Goliath as it were. Goliath was expecting him to come at him with a sword, but instead David came at him with a sling, which let’s face it is a little like walking into a knife fight and pulling out a gun and shooting your opponent point blank in the head before he can even get within a few feet of you.

 

If this confrontation were to take place in this day and age, would be be hailing David for his impressive victory? Of course not! In fact we would be calling him a coward for taking a cheap shot. There is no honour in shooting a swordsman in the head with a projectile weapon, just as there is no honour in strapping explosives to your body and walking into a crowded place before detonating them. Back in David’s days it was meant to be Champion vs Champion. David was expected to come out and face Goliath as a champion would and take him on toe to toe, but he didn’t. Far from it.

 

David was a COWARD, nothing more. He knew beforehand what he was going to do and he knew there was no danger for him in going out there to face Goliath just as I would have no fear of climbing into a boxing ring with Mike Tyson intending on shooting him with a hand gun hidden in my trunks before he could get near enough to punch me.

 

What do you all think? Why do you think it is that Christians make heros over biblical characters who are often no better than the so-called bad guys?

Dunno but I think it's a stretch especially if Goliath was really as big as the bible depicts him to be. If it's true then David would've been insane to try and fight him 'fair and square' as you suggest.

 

However, having said that, I think we could find much more fault with David with other things he did especially that sordid affair with Uriah's wife in which he actually set up the poor Hittite to be killed. That, to me, was despicable especially when you read about how devoted Uriah was to David and the nation of Israel.

[Thought2Much]

Dunno but I think it's a stretch especially if Goliath was really as big as the bible depicts him to be. If it's true then David would've been insane to try and fight him 'fair and square' as you suggest.

 

Not really. Humans aren't meant to be that tall, and most humans that get to be more than seven feet tall have all kinds of health and mobility problems. Then, if you take a guy who's probably already having trouble because of his great height and load him up with heavy bronze age armor, then the dude probably could barely walk, let alone fight very well. Even if David actually went up against such a person with a sword, he probably could have taken him out pretty easily.

 

Add to that the fact that David grabbed more than one stone (Was it five or seven? I can't remember) to sling at Goliath. He just got lucky with that first shot. Apparently he didn't have all that much faith in his god, and he was anticipating the need for more stones.

 

Not that any of it actually happened anyway.

[Ouroboros]

David and Goliath is a typical story of an underdog winning by using some unthinkable weapon. The movie Independence Day is just like tha, or the more recent Battleship. People like these stories.

[raoul]

Dunno but I think it's a stretch especially if Goliath was really as big as the bible depicts him to be. If it's true then David would've been insane to try and fight him 'fair and square' as you suggest.

 

Not really. Humans aren't meant to be that tall, and most humans that get to be more than seven feet tall have all kinds of health and mobility problems. Then, if you take a guy who's probably already having trouble because of his great height and load him up with heavy bronze age armor, then the dude probably could barely walk, let alone fight very well. Even if David actually went up against such a person with a sword, he probably could have taken him out pretty easily.

 

Add to that the fact that David grabbed more than one stone (Was it five or seven? I can't remember) to sling at Goliath. He just got lucky with that first shot. Apparently he didn't have all that much faith in his god, and he was anticipating the need for more stones.

 

Not that any of it actually happened anyway.

Sorry but I would've probably used a gun or bomb of some type. I'm the world's biggest coward.. LOL

But as you end with - it probably never even happened.

[freeasabird]

The Old Testament when read in the same way you would read any other book has all the hallmarks of being written as folklore and embelishment. When I read it the pages just dripped with Jewish propaganda and narcicism.

[Suzy]

Aren't there contradictory claims in the Bible about who killed Goliath? Of course, this is the better known story. But elsewhere in the OT someone else is credited with killing Goliath.

[buffettphan]

That story never set right with me either. But then, a lot of those buybull stories never did.

[centauri]

The story of David also includes his killing of a lion and a bear as a shepherd boy.

Then there's this charming tale of David obtaining 200 foreskins:

(They don't tell this story in Sunday school)

 

1 Sam 18:27

Wherefore David arose and went, he and his men, and slew of the Philistines two hundred men; and David brought their foreskins, and they gave them in full tale to the king, that he might be the king's son in law. And Saul gave him Michal his daughter to wife.

 

The adventures of David remind of the labors of Hercules or the exploits of Odysseus.

Odysseus cunningly triumphed over the giant Cyclops that had eaten some of his men.

[JoeCoastie]

[quote name=Ouroboros' timesta

mp='1346328726' post='803754]

David and Goliath is a typical story of an underdog winning by using some unthinkable weapon. The movie Independence Day is just like tha, or the more recent Battleship. People like these stories.

It gets thrown around by sports commentators all the time. Its just one of those stories that people will continue to look into and reference weather they believe it or not.

[mymistake]

Even as a kid, a committed Christian, listening to the story and reading it myself, something never sat right with me about the whole David defeating Goliath story, but I could never quite pinpoint it. Now that I look critically at the bible… something I never did as a Christian because well… because you just don’t…! I just have to ask this question. Was David that great a hero in this story? Was his victory against Goliath really that impressive?

 

The answer is clearly no. In fact if anything, David sucker punched Goliath as it were. Goliath was expecting him to come at him with a sword, but instead David came at him with a sling, which let’s face it is a little like walking into a knife fight and pulling out a gun and shooting your opponent point blank in the head before he can even get within a few feet of you.

 

If this confrontation were to take place in this day and age, would be be hailing David for his impressive victory? Of course not! In fact we would be calling him a coward for taking a cheap shot. There is no honour in shooting a swordsman in the head with a projectile weapon, just as there is no honour in strapping explosives to your body and walking into a crowded place before detonating them. Back in David’s days it was meant to be Champion vs Champion. David was expected to come out and face Goliath as a champion would and take him on toe to toe, but he didn’t. Far from it.

 

David was a COWARD, nothing more. He knew beforehand what he was going to do and he knew there was no danger for him in going out there to face Goliath just as I would have no fear of climbing into a boxing ring with Mike Tyson intending on shooting him with a hand gun hidden in my trunks before he could get near enough to punch me.

 

What do you all think? Why do you think it is that Christians make heros over biblical characters who are often no better than the so-called bad guys?

 

I think the original story had somebody else kill Goliath and the name was changed later on to David (not that any of this myth was real). The closest it came to reality was that it was written by a people who lived in the hills and were too poor to field a first class army. So they relied on weapons like slings to fight off people in armor. There was nothing heroic about two armies fighting it out to genocide each other's cities. However the David myth turned into a hero story so that gives us insight into what that culture looked for in a hero. I'm sure there are similarities between David and Greek hero myths.

[BMandeville]

David was no hero; he had the backing of an all-powerful being. The story should be called "Goliath and God." David risked about as much as the U.S. military invading Iraq.

[★ Citsonga ★]

Aren't there contradictory claims in the Bible about who killed Goliath? Of course, this is the better known story. But elsewhere in the OT someone else is credited with killing Goliath.

 

Yes, 2 Samuel 21:19 is what you're thinking of. Some versions correctly translate it as saying that Elhanan killed Goliath, while some other translations try to avoid the contradiction by inserting "the brother of" before "Goliath." The revisionist version in 1 Chronicles 20:5 says that Elhanan killed Lahmi the brother of Goliath, which is probably partly the reason why some Bible versions deliberately mistranslate the previous version of the story. To verify that 2 Samuel 21:19 really doesn't say the brother of Goliath, all one has to do is click the link below and look at the English/Hebrew comparison, which uses brackets for the brother part in English because it simply isn't in the Hebrew. (In addition, I believe that printed copies of the KJV have "the brother of" in italics, but I don't have one with me at the moment to verify. Anyway, in the KJV italicized words aren't translated from the original, but are supplied entirely by the translators.)

 

http://www.bluelette...9&t=KJV#conc/19

[Suzy]

Aren't there contradictory claims in the Bible about who killed Goliath? Of course, this is the better known story. But elsewhere in the OT someone else is credited with killing Goliath.

 

Yes, 2 Samuel 21:19 is what you're thinking of. Some versions correctly translate it as saying that Elhanan killed Goliath, while some other translations try to avoid the contradiction by inserting "the brother of" before "Goliath." The revisionist version in 1 Chronicles 20:5 says that Elhanan killed Lahmi the brother of Goliath, which is probably partly the reason why some Bible versions deliberately mistranslate the previous version of the story. To verify that 2 Samuel 21:19 really doesn't say the brother of Goliath, all one has to do is click the link below and look at the English/Hebrew comparison, which uses brackets for the brother part in English because it simply isn't in the Hebrew. (In addition, I believe that printed copies of the KJV have "the brother of" in italics, but I don't have one with me at the moment to verify. Anyway, in the KJV italicized words aren't translated from the original, but are supplied entirely by the translators.)

 

http://www.bluelette...9&t=KJV#conc/19

 

Thanks.

 

Funny to watch when Christians realize a mistake or a contradiction in the Bible they try to cover it up by forging texts, deliberate mistranslations etc. Oh, that infallible Word of God!

[★ Citsonga ★]

Aren't there contradictory claims in the Bible about who killed Goliath? Of course, this is the better known story. But elsewhere in the OT someone else is credited with killing Goliath.

 

Yes, 2 Samuel 21:19 is what you're thinking of. Some versions correctly translate it as saying that Elhanan killed Goliath, while some other translations try to avoid the contradiction by inserting "the brother of" before "Goliath." The revisionist version in 1 Chronicles 20:5 says that Elhanan killed Lahmi the brother of Goliath, which is probably partly the reason why some Bible versions deliberately mistranslate the previous version of the story. To verify that 2 Samuel 21:19 really doesn't say the brother of Goliath, all one has to do is click the link below and look at the English/Hebrew comparison, which uses brackets for the brother part in English because it simply isn't in the Hebrew. (In addition, I believe that printed copies of the KJV have "the brother of" in italics, but I don't have one with me at the moment to verify. Anyway, in the KJV italicized words aren't translated from the original, but are supplied entirely by the translators.)

 

http://www.bluelette...9&t=KJV#conc/19

 

Thanks.

 

Funny to watch when Christians realize a mistake or a contradiction in the Bible they try to cover it up by forging texts, deliberate mistranslations etc. Oh, that infallible Word of God!

 

Yep, exactly.

 

To see what "the brother of Goliath" looks like in Hebrew, below is a link to the 1 Chronicles 20:5 revision that adds the name Lahmi.

 

http://www.blueletterbible.org/Bible.cfm?b=1Ch&c=20&v=5&t=KJV#conc/5

[Dhampir]

Interestingly enough, it was a Cracked.com article that gave me some insight as to what the problem might be here. Tribes needed to instill a sense of loyalty and history in their youth, but rather than tell a drawn out history of their exploits, they amalgamated stories into grand mythologies, that simultaneously paint themselves as superior and virtuous, and the surrounding tribes, whom they wished to remain pure from, as only worthy of being avoided at best, and killed at worst. Therefore, Goliath, here probably representative not only of a group of Philistenes, but probably a number of battles, metaphorically against great odds, is depicted as an unstoppable giant, brought down by one lowly member of the victorious tribe, perhaps himself representative of a metaphor.

[blackpudd1n]

The story of David also includes his killing of a lion and a bear as a shepherd boy.

Then there's this charming tale of David obtaining 200 foreskins:

(They don't tell this story in Sunday school)

 

1 Sam 18:27

Wherefore David arose and went, he and his men, and slew of the Philistines two hundred men; and David brought their foreskins, and they gave them in full tale to the king, that he might be the king's son in law. And Saul gave him Michal his daughter to wife.

 

The adventures of David remind of the labors of Hercules or the exploits of Odysseus.

Odysseus cunningly triumphed over the giant Cyclops that had eaten some of his men.

 

 

They might not have told that story in Sunday School about the foreskins, but they sure did tell it in my church. I remember a sermon on it, and the preacher was really enthused about what a man of god David was, how he went out and slayed 200 men and cut off all their foreskins, and the guys even went to the extent of pretending he was dragging a sack filled with foreskins.

 

I remember that sermon really well. Everyone was getting into the story of the foreskins, and I remember just sitting there, going, "dude... Foreskins??!!" Even as preacher-boy's getting into the mystical significance of those 200 foreskins and what a mighty warrior David was, and how committed he was, I'm sitting there grappling with the 200 foreskins. Do you think I've ever been able to get that image out my mind since? A big sack of foreskins.

[raoul]

They might not have told that story in Sunday School about the foreskins, but they sure did tell it in my church. I remember a sermon on it, and the preacher was really enthused about what a man of god David was, how he went out and slayed 200 men and cut off all their foreskins, and the guys even went to the extent of pretending he was dragging a sack filled with foreskins.

 

I remember that sermon really well. Everyone was getting into the story of the foreskins, and I remember just sitting there, going, "dude... Foreskins??!!" Even as preacher-boy's getting into the mystical significance of those 200 foreskins and what a mighty warrior David was, and how committed he was, I'm sitting there grappling with the 200 foreskins. Do you think I've ever been able to get that image out my mind since? A big sack of foreskins.

Kinky, kinky, kinky!!!! LOL

And I see you're back and I am delighted. I didn't write anything to you until you were back and typing away. Welcome back kiddo! And your next bible lesson for us is to share what REALLY happened between ole Davey and Bathsheba. But please, leave out any references to 10 foot kangeroos okay? LOL

[blackpudd1n]

They might not have told that story in Sunday School about the foreskins, but they sure did tell it in my church. I remember a sermon on it, and the preacher was really enthused about what a man of god David was, how he went out and slayed 200 men and cut off all their foreskins, and the guys even went to the extent of pretending he was dragging a sack filled with foreskins.

 

I remember that sermon really well. Everyone was getting into the story of the foreskins, and I remember just sitting there, going, "dude... Foreskins??!!" Even as preacher-boy's getting into the mystical significance of those 200 foreskins and what a mighty warrior David was, and how committed he was, I'm sitting there grappling with the 200 foreskins. Do you think I've ever been able to get that image out my mind since? A big sack of foreskins.

Kinky, kinky, kinky!!!! LOL

And I see you're back and I am delighted. I didn't write anything to you until you were back and typing away. Welcome back kiddo! And your next bible lesson for us is to share what REALLY happened between ole Davey and Bathsheba. But please, leave out any references to 10 foot kangeroos okay? LOL

 

Hey Raoul!

 

Yeah, everything went really well with the surgery I glad to be home again

 

As for David and Bathsheda, if I remember correctly, this story was to be used as an example of how merciful and forgiving god is. It was to reinforce just how sinful our human nature makes us by default, and the depths to which we can fall when we take our eyes off god. However, the story was also to illustrate that when we repent of our sins, and turn our eyes back to god and soften our hearts to his calling, that he would not only be merciful, but would bless us beyond our wildest expectations. How's my apologetics going here?

 

As for 10-foot kangaroos and David, well, the only reference I can think to make is that I reckon I had more guts when I was 14, because I actually walked up to a kangaroo in the wild with a piece of bread to try and coax it out of that toilet. With Goliath, David threw a stone from a distance. So I think I'm the bigger badass here

[VacuumFlux]

The story never bothered me because I'd always heard it presented that Goliath was a bully and I read a bunch of modern atttiudes into it. The way I understood it, Goliath's tribe of giant people started the fight (or at least that's how I'd always assumed it went) and they were just drawing things out to rub it in the Israelites' faces. Kinda like a western nation today with tanks attacking, unprovoked, a civilization that's just using spears. Since they were never intending on a fair fight, it didn't seem like a problem that David used his primitive redneck technology to stick it to the bullies. Of course, reading it now, it does read a bit differently.

 

I guess I was a little bothered by how afterwards the rest of the Philistines ran away and the Israelites bragged about how they ran 'em down and killed them all. That part was what seemed a little dirty.

 

As for David and Bathsheda, if I remember correctly, this story was to be used as an example of how merciful and forgiving god is. It was to reinforce just how sinful our human nature makes us by default, and the depths to which we can fall when we take our eyes off god. However, the story was also to illustrate that when we repent of our sins, and turn our eyes back to god and soften our hearts to his calling, that he would not only be merciful, but would bless us beyond our wildest expectations. How's my apologetics going here?

 

David got into a whole lot more trouble for conducting a census than for all the insanely immoral stuff he did with Bathsheba and Uriah. For that one, God punished the entire country, not just David. That one bothered me a little even as a christian; it just seemed so arbitrary. Sure there were fancy explanations for why it was such a big deal, but really?

[blackpudd1n]

David got into a whole lot more trouble for conducting a census than for all the insanely immoral stuff he did with Bathsheba and Uriah. For that one, God punished the entire country, not just David. That one bothered me a little even as a christian; it just seemed so arbitrary. Sure there were fancy explanations for why it was such a big deal, but really?

 

actually, that makes a lot of sense, when you consider the hypothesis that the ancient jews were actually disenfranchised Canaanites fleeing their city-states and life of inequality due to class to pursue a more equal way of life. I guess a census would go against their new hippy lifestyle.

[mymistake]

I sure am glad that I was not David's son nor David's subject while David was "getting in trouble". Biblegod had this habit of killing everybody but David.

 

"I'm angry at you so pick: should I kill these innocent people with disease or by starvation?"

[raoul]

They might not have told that story in Sunday School about the foreskins, but they sure did tell it in my church. I remember a sermon on it, and the preacher was really enthused about what a man of god David was, how he went out and slayed 200 men and cut off all their foreskins, and the guys even went to the extent of pretending he was dragging a sack filled with foreskins.

 

I remember that sermon really well. Everyone was getting into the story of the foreskins, and I remember just sitting there, going, "dude... Foreskins??!!" Even as preacher-boy's getting into the mystical significance of those 200 foreskins and what a mighty warrior David was, and how committed he was, I'm sitting there grappling with the 200 foreskins. Do you think I've ever been able to get that image out my mind since? A big sack of foreskins.

Kinky, kinky, kinky!!!! LOL

And I see you're back and I am delighted. I didn't write anything to you until you were back and typing away. Welcome back kiddo! And your next bible lesson for us is to share what REALLY happened between ole Davey and Bathsheba. But please, leave out any references to 10 foot kangeroos okay? LOL

 

Hey Raoul!

 

Yeah, everything went really well with the surgery I glad to be home again

 

As for David and Bathsheda, if I remember correctly, this story was to be used as an example of how merciful and forgiving god is. It was to reinforce just how sinful our human nature makes us by default, and the depths to which we can fall when we take our eyes off god. However, the story was also to illustrate that when we repent of our sins, and turn our eyes back to god and soften our hearts to his calling, that he would not only be merciful, but would bless us beyond our wildest expectations. How's my apologetics going here?

 

As for 10-foot kangaroos and David, well, the only reference I can think to make is that I reckon I had more guts when I was 14, because I actually walked up to a kangaroo in the wild with a piece of bread to try and coax it out of that toilet. With Goliath, David threw a stone from a distance. So I think I'm the bigger badass here

That you are Pudd, that you are (a bigger badass) and as tough as nails. I admire that kind of strength in a human being. So many are just the opposite and sit around whining 'woe is me' crap which drives me bananas. On a side note - I got that Kangeroo story and will embellish it a bit in a video I'm gonna try to do with the Kat tomorrow (hopefully). I'll put it under the 'totally off topic' forum. Thanks for giving me a hearty laugh which began as soon as I read the word 'kangeroo'. LOL

[Suzy]

 

 

As for David and Bathsheda, if I remember correctly, this story was to be used as an example of how merciful and forgiving god is.

 

Yeah, killing your baby, instead of you, when you sin is a prime example of God's mercy.

Do these people hear themselves when they talk?

[mymistake]

David got into a whole lot more trouble for conducting a census than for all the insanely immoral stuff he did with Bathsheba and Uriah. For that one, God punished the entire country, not just David. That one bothered me a little even as a christian; it just seemed so arbitrary. Sure there were fancy explanations for why it was such a big deal, but really?

 

actually, that makes a lot of sense, when you consider the hypothesis that the ancient jews were actually disenfranchised Canaanites fleeing their city-states and life of inequality due to class to pursue a more equal way of life. I guess a census would go against their new hippy lifestyle.

 

Not hippies. Israel ran for their lives to get away from the Sea People. The Sea People were real. We have archeological evidence that they came through the Mediterranean and wiped out the Bronze Age super power kingdoms. And one group of Sea People settled where the Bible identifies the Philistines so that connection might be valid. Canaan had been under the control of Egypt. (You know all the leaders would have been names a-mosses-something) But when the Sea People kicked Egypt's butt suddenly refugees show up in previously unsettled hilltops. And that is how Israel got started - as hilltop farmers who didn't even have swords and were resisting the Philistines. Centuries later Deuteronomy and Exodus were created/invented to give Israel a sense of legacy.