Leaving Jesus is not Leaving God!

[NotBlinded]

good stuff...

O_M, thanks to you, I have many contemplative books in my wish list at Amazon! I was reading a review of Thomas Merton's, New Seeds of Contemplation and I found this. I think it fits in with what you said here. I think!

 

New Seeds of Contemplation is an impressive book, and one that has effected me more profoundly than any other contemporary theological study. In an age when "Christian literature" is sold in bulk at Sam's Clubs, Merton's book is refreshingly intelligent and devoid of the empty rhetoric that plagues so much of the dialogue in Christian America (and its churches) today. This deliberate move away from "old worn-out words, clichés, slogans, rationalizations . . . hackneyed analogies and metaphors that are so feeble that they make you think there is something the matter with religion" is actually an important stage in every contemplative's life, Merton claims, a step that can be quite unnerving. "The worst of it," he writes:

 

is that even apparently holy conceptions are consumed along with the rest. It is a terrible breaking and burning of idols, a purification of the sanctuary, so that no graven thing may occupy the place that God has commanded to be left empty: the center, the existential altar which simply "is." In the end the contemplative suffers the anguish of realizing that he no longer knows what God is.

 

From here.

[Open_Minded]

"Yes... I can see what you are saying here. That you sense not only your own voice - but a connection with a voice/wisdom that pervades all of existence? That there is no place we can go and be physical separated from this inherent awareness within us - but we must remain open to it. That is our job - to remain open? Is this what you mean?"

Yes, exactly. You and Antlerman were talking about God being love. You were talking about a scripture verse talking about God being love. I understand it in terms of words, but could you expand more of what you mean if possible?

 

In the summer, I walk fifteen minutes from my home in the mountains to a bridge where the beavers live--a whole family. I like to watch them swim and the sun set. While I'm there I'm usually not thinking about God, meditation, or much else. I just take it in. I notice that everything within the picture I just described has a meaning to it--maybe energy. That energy just is regardless of what I'm doing or thinking. Sometimes I think that my connection is the energy that runs through everything. However, not everything within this picture would be love. The beavers cut down the trees and the local hunters occasionally shoot the beavers. This is where my head is in trying to understand the God is Love concept.

 

Seabiscuit ... I hope you don't mind, but this conversation is taking on many layers. So, I'm going to bite off a little bit at a time and post about it, then come back to other parts of your post as time alows.

 

Your right, Antlerman and I did discuss this idea of "God is Love". Keeping in mind that so much of our discussion was about the subjectivity of these things .. there is much to say on the topic.

 

Antlerman had some wonderful things to say in the following:

 

You know I can’t help but think of what I heard on some science programs awhile back, that “life” on this planet may not be an anomaly, some isolated fluke, but it seems that everything in the universe is geared towards life, that life is an inevitability. Personally, this makes sense to me. Why would this planet hold the only life in the universe? The soup that is spread everywhere in the universe is not unique here. If we were the only life, then everything in the universe would be starkly different than what’s here, which it’s not. Ifs we accept that life is natural to the universe, then what you say above I would say has merit. But now we get into some interesting territory.

 

When I speak of “Life”, most of time that word to me is charged with the spiritual overtones of “Energy”, and on a foundational level as you say “Love”. But, isn’t this a subjective understanding of that nature of life? (Back to subjective again!). Like some wise soul from Italy posted in another thread here recently, regarding the tossing of dice and seeing the numbers 111111111111 as more special than 1243765245187264, even though the odds of that sequence are identical, that the “special-ness” or “miracle” of this is only a value we assign to it.

 

Now, does that kill the joy of hitting all 1’s? Does it have to? In the same sense, is seeing “Love” as the essence of Life, subjective? Yes, but isn’t spirituality all about finding meaning to life? Is that wrong? I don’t think inherently it is, but it can have the nasty side effect of rationality not knowing how to incorporate that “leap” (and back to that term again!). Most people, it seems, make them at odds with each other, and unnecessary wars are born.

 

I want to be spiritual, but I don’t want to be deluded either. I am emotional, and rational. Not one or the other. The poet in me sees Life and sees what could be called “God” or Love, or Wisdom as the binding essence. But culture significance of these terms carries meanings that have become hard for me to overcome

. (Now I know I’m repeating myself)

 

Seabiscuit ... Antlerman's points are well worth keeping in mind. It is always important to keep in mind that these experiences/understandings are subjective in nature. Having acknowledged this, the whole concept of "God is Love" is very important to me. In fact, subjectively speaking, God is infinite Love and Wisdom together.

 

You asked me to expand on what I mean when I say this ... I'll give it my best shot and feel free to ask questions.

 

First I'd like to throw in a quote from Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr.

 

A genuine revolution of values means in the final analysis that our loyalties must become ecumenical rather than sectional. Every nation must now develop an overriding loyalty to mankind as a whole in order to preserve the best in their individual societies.

 

This call for a worldwide fellowship that lifts neighborly concern beyond one’s tribe, race, class, and nation is in reality a call for an all-embracing and unconditional love for all mankind. This oft misunderstood this oft misinterpreted concept, so readily dismissed by the Nietzsches of the world as a weak and cowardly force, has now become an absolute necessity for the survival of man. When I speak of love

I am not speaking of some sentimental and weak response. I’m not speaking of that force which is just emotional bosh. I am speaking of that force which all the great religions have seen as the

supreme unifying principle of life.

Love is somehow the key that unlocks the door which leads to ultimate reality. This Hindu-Muslim-Christian-Jewish-Buddhist belief about ultimate reality is beautifully summed up in the first epistle of Saint John: ----

 

Seabiscuit - on one level this is very much what I feel. The kind of love that Dr. King is talking about is the "supreme unifying principle of life". So ... supreme that if humanity does not discover and participate in this one simple fact of unconditional love - we will not only risk our own existence, but the earth itself.

 

But... you are right...

 

In the summer, I walk fifteen minutes from my home in the mountains to a bridge where the beavers live--a whole family. I like to watch them swim and the sun set. While I'm there I'm usually not thinking about God, meditation, or much else. I just take it in. I notice that everything within the picture I just described has a meaning to it--maybe energy. That energy just is regardless of what I'm doing or thinking. Sometimes I think that my connection is the energy that runs through everything. However, not everything within this picture would be love. The beavers cut down the trees and the local hunters occasionally shoot the beavers. This is where my head is in trying to understand the God is Love concept.

 

1st of all ... it is wonderful ... that you just take it in. I would agree with you too, that the connection is the "energy that runs through everything".

 

To me... "the energy that runs through everything" IS LOVE.

 

See... I'm with Dr. King - love is more than the "emotional bosh" that we associate it with. We associate "love" with our feelings for other people. This is not bad - but it is limiting. LOVE is energy within and of itself. It does not need us, nor does it exist because we give it life. WE participate in LOVE, not the other way around.

 

Again - what I'm writing is just my subjective opinion. It is NOT scientific fact. But, to me, the underlying - foundational energy of all creation is an energy which brings order from disorder. And, subjectively - I understand this energy as LOVE energy.

 

When I have experienced love in its highest and purest forms - it has consistently been an experience of bringing a natural (not enforced) order into my life. As a child, the unconditional love of my parents brought order to my life. And as I grew the love of extended family, friends, neighbors, etc... contributed to the "order" in my life. And when I married, the love my husband and I shared brought a different kind of "order" into my life. So with the love I've given and received from my children. Pure love, not "love" someone says they are giving you at the same time that they are making your life chaotic. No ... pure love always comes with a sense of "rightness" or "order". A natural "order" not one enforced from outside, but an "order" that naturally occurs because the energy of "love" is present.

 

So ... back to your illustration about being out of doors. I love to flower garden, and when I am out in my garden I see this energy of natural and unfolding order everywhere. If I plant a morning glory seed, only a morning glory will sprout from that seed. When a rose bud blossoms into a flower, it is fascinating to watch the patterns with which each pedal will come forth from the bud.

 

This supreme unifying principle of life that Dr. King referred to, does not just unify humanity, nor different religions or cultures. This supreme unifying principal is also a supreme unifying energy. As you said, "the energy that runs through everything".

 

Does this start to answer your questions about "God is Love"?

[Open_Minded]

In the end the contemplative suffers the anguish of realizing that he no longer knows what God is.

 

NotBlinded -- I would wish for every Christian that s/he would anguish over realizing that "he no longer knows what God is."

 

The problem is that when people come to this pivotal point on their spiritual journey they do one of two things. They retreat - or they force forward to find the answers.

 

I think that is why I enjoy this board so much, when folks here reached that pivotal point on their journey - they pushed forward to find answers.

 

We are studying the Gospel of Thomas at church right now. Here are the first verses of this gospel.

 

These are the secret sayings that the living Jesus spoke and Didymos Judas Thomas recorded.

 

1 And he said, "Whoever discovers the interpretation of these sayings will not taste death."

 

2 Jesus said, "Those who seek should not stop seeking until they find. When they find, they will be disturbed. When they are disturbed, they will marvel, and will reign over all. [And after they have reigned they will rest.]"

 

Coming to a point in one's spiritual life where one is "disturbed" is not always a bad thing. Ohh... should that every soul feel the anguish of no longer "knowing who God is" and decide to push through to find the answer.

[Fweethawt]

What's with the "Ohh..."?

 

Yer soundin' a bit churchy there.

 

Stop that already.

 

 

[Open_Minded]

What's with the "Ohh..."?

 

Yer soundin' a bit churchy there.

 

Stop that already.

 

 

 

Wow .... Fweethawt .... Is that churchy?

 

Sorry, I didn't know ...

 

I'm from one of those boring Lutheran congregations

 

Not a lot of Ohhs, even in our "contemporary service".

[Fweethawt]

Actually, I don't know how churchy it is, but it at least reminded me

of listening to Harold Camping.

 

If you ever get a chance to hear him doing one of his "beseechin'"

schpeels, you'll know what I mean.

[Open_Minded]

Actually, I don't know how churchy it is, but it at least reminded me

of listening to Harold Camping.

 

If you ever get a chance to hear him doing one of his "beseechin'"

schpeels, you'll know what I mean.

 

OK ... new information...

 

Who is Harold Camping.

[Fweethawt]

Who is Harold Camping.

He's a radio talk show host. The name of his program is The Open Forum. It's for people to call in and discuss the meaning of The Holy Scriptures™. However, it can only mean whatever Harold Camping decides that it means on any given day.

 

To hear him in action, on certain occasions, any normal human would eagerly jump at the opportunity to grasp his throat and tightly squeeze while they watch with glee, the life slowly draining from his decrepit body.

 

I've listened to his program as he emotionally crushed individuals (who were in dangerous situations) using The Holy Scriptures™.

 

Yes, I could (probably) kill a man like that and not lose a minute of sleep over it.

 

 

If you Googlesearch his name, I'm sure you can probably find a boatload of information about him. The only thing that I like about his preaching, is that he is known for preaching about the present time being the end of the church age, and God is calling all of the True Believers™ out and away from the church because The Holy Spirit™ is no longer doing any works in the church. God has given the church over to Satan according to Harold Camping.

 

But then again, he is also known for predicting that the world would end and that Jesus would return back in 1995 (or something like that). And his followers don't even consider him to be a false prophet!

[Open_Minded]

Hello Seabiscuit:

 

I promised I'd answer your posts in installments - so here's the next phase. I understand you'll be away from the board for a few days - so I'll just put these installments out here a bit (or a bite) at a time. Then when you're back on the board we can just pick things up from there.

 

"I think we're talking about the same (or a similar phenomenon). I would say false self/true self. But - I think I know what you are talking about. It's all academic until you're in the situation - and then the only language that seems to fit is "dying", "die". Do you know what I mean. But - in the long run it's not a bad thing - it leads to good. After it passes then there is newness - life - one feels lighter and more open?"

I don't mean to start breaking down words, but could you tell me more about a False self? I'm learning how powerful acceptance can be. I can accept my ego and relax it. But the term false, to me, means something that is not. How can I deal with something that is not. Can you help me with these terms?

 

You asked about "false self". If my understanding of the way you are using the word "ego" is correct, I'd say the two terms are closely related.

 

The way I've learned to think about the "false self" is that it is the part of us that makes decisions on surface appearances. The part of us that gets caught up in the emotions of the moment. The part of us that lives in "what could have been" or "what should be".

 

When someone reminds us that the world does not revolve around us, they are pointing to - and reminding us that we are living in - our false self (our ego).

 

More than that the "false self" is NOT the "true self". The true self is not focused on "what could have been" or "what should be". The true self is focused on what IS - and knows that "what could have been" is only important in it's ability to improve "what IS". The true self knows that the only reason to focus on "what should be" is to improve "what IS". The true self knows that one only lives in the NOW.

 

The false self may look to outward appearances to make decisions - and validate emotions. The true self knows that things are not always what they appear to be on the surface and so looks deeper.

 

The true self is what our human soul/spirit is intended to be - love, compassion, wisdom, patience. In fact 1 Corinthians 13:4-7 is a good study in false/true self:

 

Love is patient; love is kind; love is not envious or boastful or arrogant or rude. It does not insist on its own way; it is not irritable or resentful; it does not rejoice in wrongdoing, but rejoices in the truth. It bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things.

 

The false self shows itself in irritable, resentful, envious, boastful, arrogant or rude behaviors. Almost always when one sees these behaviors one is in the presence of a person who is focusing on "self", who is in a "everything is about me" mode of operation.

 

The true self shows itself in patient, kind, truthful, generous and compassionate behavior. The true self truly does bear all things, believe all things, hope all things and endures all things - because the true self is grounded in the infinite energy of LOVE which unifies all and makes all whole and complete.

 

Every single one of us is capable of both false self and true self behaviors. The idea of the false self has led to abuse in the past history of contemplative spirituality. There have been those - in both the east and the west - who have used these concepts to practice extreme asceticism. But, on a personal level, I believe that Buddhists, Christians, Hindus, etc... who have a long history of contemplative branches are finding that extremism in this area is just as destructive as extremism in all other areas.

 

I can not speak for the eastern traditons. But my experience with contemporary Christian contemplation is an acceptance of the false self. That this is a normal part of the human experience, we should not deny our false self, and in fact we need to honestly acknowledge its existence - even honor its presence at times.

 

When one knows ones false self then there is little need for the extreme physical denials of other eras in contemplation. When one knows ones false self - then one naturally recognizes destructive behavior and thought processes and acts to correct them. The true self rises to the surface and gently reminds the false self that "it isn't all about you".

 

_______________

 

Fweethawt and I had a short conversation about Harold Camping - I took the time to "google" his name. Here is a person who had the arrogance to claim he knew when the world was going to come to an end. He wrote a book early in the 1990s titled "1994." In this book, Harold Camping claimed that history would end in September of 1994. Christ would return and judge the world, according to Camping.

 

Now I'd never even heard of this fellow - and I'm a member of a church where our pastor enjoys poking fun at this type of thinking. But, as I was reading about Camping - on the heels of thinking about how I was going to respond to your questions about the "false self" it occurred to me that Harold Camping's ideas about how (and when) the world is going to come to an end are a perfect - although extreme - study in the "false self".

 

Thanks Fweethawt

[NotBlinded]

When someone reminds us that the world does not revolve around us, they are pointing to - and reminding us that we are living in - our false self (our ego).

 

More than that the "false self" is NOT the "true self". The true self is not focused on "what could have been" or "what should be". The true self is focused on what IS - and knows that "what could have been" is only important in it's ability to improve "what IS". The true self knows that the only reason to focus on "what should be" is to improve "what IS". The true self knows that one only lives in the NOW.

 

>snipped for space purposes only<

WOW...just...WOW O_M.

 

 

As Chester continued with the Master he said, "I can understand almost anything, but the idea that God had no beginning. How can something have no beginning?"

The Master peeled a banana and said, "All things have a beginning."

 

Chester scorned, "You just said God had no beginning now you say everything has a beginning. You are a paradox of words. You can't have both at the same time!"

 

The Master looked silly as he grinned and ate the banana. "Examine your assumptions and listen to your bias that limits you."

 

Chester shook his head. The Master waited. Chester started several times to say something. The Master ate some plums. Chester's logical mind pondered until finally he brightened! "I assumed God is a thing."

 

The Master leaned forward and whispered, "The Wisdom of Balance tells us that to understand the opposites is to resolve the paradox. What is the opposite of thing?"

 

Chester slowly responded, "Nothing."

 

The Master sat up and looked for fruit and casually said, "So obviously God is no thing and is that which preceeds all things."

 

Chester complained, "Eternity isn't logical!"

 

The Master finished his fruit and smiled. "Perhaps there is another way for you to understand Eternity. Instead of trying to comprehend it logically, experience it instead."

 

Chester laughed. "You can't experience eternity. Come on get real!"

 

The Master laughed back. "You are experiencing Eternity Now. Right now you are experiencing Now. Can you ever remember a time when it wasn't Now? All you have is right Now." The Master reached up and grasped an invisible pole and pulled down in front of his heart as he emphasized. "All there is, all there ever has been, all there ever will be, is Now."

 

Chester frowned as if trying to get it. "How is right now Eternity?"

 

"Eternity and Now are the same thing." The Master repeated, "Eternity creates the Now. There always has been and always will be Now. Eternity is one of the Three Absolute Aspects of God. And God has always been Aware of Now. There has never not been Now."

 

"Now and Eternity are the same thing?" Chester began to think the Master was delusional.

 

"Try it this way. There is only an Ever Changing Now. What we call the past is the memory of Now as it has been and the future is the Now we look forward to."

 

Chester sighed. "I think I need to meditate more on this. I can't believe I'm even saying the word meditate, let alone doing it."

 

Master said, "Meditate on Now."

 

Chester looked at the Master and said, "Now is now, that is simple."

"When your mind was clear of thought did it still experience a sense of now?" The Master waited.

 

Chester looked up as if remembering, "Yes it seemed stronger."

 

The Master took it to the next level, "And how strong is the sense of Now, now?"

 

Chester smiled and said, "It isn't near as strong." Chester's eyes widened, "Wait! I was very aware of a timeless spot that everything unfolds from. I now know why you gave me the gold coin. My thoughts actually screen me from my awareness of myself and my awareness of Now! I discovered pure awareness when my thoughts were still and silent."

 

The Master reached for another gold coin, and as he handed it to Chester he explained, "Now is the blending of Eternity and Awareness. Your thoughts create an illusion of time and create a false sense of awareness, yet when you connect completely to the Now, when you are completely in the present, only then can you remove the suffering that is caused by longing for the past or worrying about the future."

 

The Reluctant Messanger

 

This website has many things that I don't agree with, but I found this so much in concert with other speakers, new and ancient, that I thought I would put it here.

[Open_Minded]

More than that the "false self" is NOT the "true self". The true self is not focused on "what could have been" or "what should be". The true self is focused on what IS - and knows that "what could have been" is only important in it's ability to improve "what IS". The true self knows that the only reason to focus on "what should be" is to improve "what IS". The true self knows that one only lives in the NOW.

 

>snipped for space purposes only<

WOW...just...WOW O_M.

 

The Master laughed back. "You are experiencing Eternity Now. Right now you are experiencing Now. Can you ever remember a time when it wasn't Now? All you have is right Now." The Master reached up and grasped an invisible pole and pulled down in front of his heart as he emphasized. "All there is, all there ever has been, all there ever will be, is Now."

 

Chester frowned as if trying to get it. "How is right now Eternity?"

 

"Eternity and Now are the same thing." The Master repeated, "Eternity creates the Now. There always has been and always will be Now. Eternity is one of the Three Absolute Aspects of God. And God has always been Aware of Now. There has never not been Now." <Snip> For sake of space only

 

The Master reached for another gold coin, and as he handed it to Chester he explained, "Now is the blending of Eternity and Awareness. Your thoughts create an illusion of time and create a false sense of awareness, yet when you connect completely to the Now, when you are completely in the present, only then can you remove the suffering that is caused by longing for the past or worrying about the future."

 

OMG NotBlinded.... WOW is right....

 

That's it - I'm coining a new acronym

 

I - I

L - Like/love (the)

W -W

Y - Y

T - Thing

 

So ... NotBlinded ... did I ever tell you ILWYT?

 

 

OOPS I screwed up

 

I - I

L - Like/love (the)

W -W

Y - Y

T - Thing

 

I meant:

 

I - I

L - Like/love (the)

W -W

Y - Y

T - Think

 

Sorry .....

[NotBlinded]

 

OMG NotBlinded.... WOW is right....

 

That's it - I'm coining a new acronym

 

I - I

L - Like/love (the)

W -W

Y - Y

T - Thing

 

So ... NotBlinded ... did I ever tell you ILWYT?

 

 

OOPS I screwed up

 

I - I

L - Like/love (the)

W -W

Y - Y

T - Thing

 

I meant:

 

I - I

L - Like/love (the)

W -W

Y - Y

T - Think

 

Sorry .....

You know...it's the whole Thing and No-Thing that gotcha!

 

BTW, ILWYT 2!

[Fweethawt]

BTW, ILWYT 2!

 

U 2 R 2 - the mouse + 'E'

 

 

[Open_Minded]

U 2 R 2 - the mouse + 'E'

 

thanks Fweethawt ... it took me a second to get the joke, and then I had a good laugh.

 

Seabiscuit ... back to those installments I promised.

 

"Yes .. yes... this is what I meant earlier when I spoke of "sinking into the pain". There was one period of my life where I don't know how I could have gone on without one person who "witnessed" the pain. I think it helped to keep me "grounded". At the time I wondered if I was loosing touch with reality - having this person help me through the "dying" process kept me grounded."

Why do you think witnessing is so important? I mean it's powerful. I've told parts of my story over and over again. I didn't get healing until I sat down and really heard myself. My healing continued when my spiritual advisor listened with me. Those sessions were powerful. I had been to counseling years before, and the experience wasn't as helpful.

 

Yes ... you know ... I have become convinced in the years since my own experience that so much of what our culture labels as psychological disorders are in fact natural human responses to stress. We spend so much of our lives - pushing our pain into the recesses of our mind. And then - at some point - that is all going to surface. We can either accept the surfacing as normal and work through it, or we can continue to supress it and feel pain through the suppression.

 

Why do I think "witnessing" is so important. When I think of "witnessing" I think of someone who understands that what you are experiencing is a normal spiritual struggle. Someone who listens, and listens very well, listens with compassion and awareness of the unloading. Someone who can help you see that your experience may be painful, but is well within the realm of "normal".

 

See.... for me ... it took me a long time before I could truly verbalize what was going on inside me. And I had to feel safe in doing so. Internally I really did feel concern that I might be loosing touch with reality - and I was frightened. But, once I felt safe, once another person's compassion convinced me that whatever I was feeling was within the realm of "normal" then I could dump. And just talking, released so much of the pain. To this day - I can not look at the period of my life and point to "ONE specific cause" of all the pain. I have become convinced that Father Keating is right. When one uses meditation in a disciplined way for long periods of time - then certain things are naturally going to occur. One is exercising during the meditative process, and there are quantifiable changes to the human brain as a result.

 

On a personal level, one feels changes in a subjective way. But there is language across culture and tradition that points to an increased openess. These experiences - of past emotional turmoil rising to the surface and evacuating - are well within the realm of normal. But, when your in the thick of it - it can be quite agitating. I think a "witness" helps, if they are compassionate and aware of what is happening. I think when we can talk about what is happening internally - the very act of talking releases the turmoil. And we end up feeling better - lighter - because we have released a burden we were carrying (and may not even have been aware that we were carrying it).

 

"Seabiscuit --- with your negative experiences of Christianity --- don't worry about reading Father Keating. If I've learned anything on this board it is that the very same language which helps me and which I find comfort in causes others pain. I do think Father Keating's teachings about the unloading of unconsciousness are valid and well grounded within a modern understanding of the meditative process and its affect on the brain and subconscious. But his teachings are also grounded in Christian language and tradition. This "dying" process that we have been discussing - within the Christian tradition - language of the crusifixion is used to symbolize this process."

The cross has always bothered me. People actually died on those things. It seems so disrespectful to carry it through as a symbol. The pain and anguish I could feel going through an execution like that would be mind blowing. I can see how it would be a good symbol or metaphor for internal growth unlike a knife or gun. What are your thoughts?

 

You know ... the cross has always bothered me as well. Not only that, the way the crucifixion is interpreted bothered me too. The whol idea of some egotistical god needing a "blood sacrifice" to appease is just sick. I can understand how people in the 1st century would think that - it would have been well within the norm for the time and culture. But - in 2006 - the violence of that type of thinking and then to attribute it to a loving god is - well - sick. I've never embraced that type of thinking.

 

Having said that - you are right in a way. For the kind of internal angst that we are talking about here ... where one really does feel as though a part of oneself is "dying" ... I suppose the cross has its place as a symbol.

 

But, honestly, what I connected with during that period of my life (and still do to this day) is the crucifixion as a vicarious suffering experience.

 

Seabiscuit ... before this period of my life ... I understood what it meant to feel empathy for other people. But during this period, this dynamic took on whole depths of experience that I never knew. And I'm not quite sure how to explain it.

 

It seems to me that since humans can be aware of an interconnectedness within all and through all that this can take many levels. On a scientific level we have been aware of this interconnectedness for sometime. I think on an intuitive level humanity has been aware of it for ages, maybe even back to the earliest stages of self-awareness.

 

Anyway .... interconnectedness comes with consequences ... so to speak. Our ability to feel empathy for others is a part of this. On very subtle levels I do think it is possible to feel the pain and joy of humanity through this interconnectedness.

 

Well ... during this particular period of my life... that dynamic came into play in very intense ways. It is impossible to put into words what I was feeling. And this part of the experience is what caused me so much concern ... that I might be loosing touch with reality. But, on very deep levels I was experiencing pain that was not "mine" so to speak.... One dimension of this experience was truly a dimension of feeling the pain of humanity. Feeling the pain caused by violence between people of different perspectives. It just enveloped me - as if I "owned" it. And I did not "own" it - but I felt it in that way.

 

The concrete result of that period in my life is the work I do now in building this interfaith/interspiritual group. This result is all I can point to - as any sort of validation for what I went through. The pain I felt was quite real and very intense - but it was subjective. It frightened me because it was so subjective. If I had not had another person in my life reminding me that this was "normal" - who was compassionate and willing to listen - I truly don't know if I would have made it. I probably would have gone to a psychologist, put myself on meds, repressed what I was experiencing and the work I do now would never had gotten started.

 

Anyway - during this experience of vicarious suffering - I suddenly understood the crucifixion in a way I never had before. It suddenly took on whole new layers of meaning. Now the cross does mean something to me ... but not the literal meanings that have been attached to it.

 

I hope this helps, rather than hinders, Seabiscuit. Feel free to ask questions and if you need to let it be ... I can certainly understand this as well. As I said, the experience was extremely subjective, and I can keep it in that context. To me what matters is the concrete results, and that is where I focus my energies these days.

[Antlerman]

Well ... during this particular period of my life... that dynamic came into play in very intense ways. It is impossible to put into words what I was feeling. And this part of the experience is what caused me so much concern ... that I might be loosing touch with reality. But, on very deep levels I was experiencing pain that was not "mine" so to speak.... One dimension of this experience was truly a dimension of feeling the pain of humanity. Feeling the pain caused by violence between people of different perspectives. It just enveloped me - as if I "owned" it. And I did not "own" it - but I felt it in that way.

I'm breaking my slience for a brief moment to share something related to what you have said that has been meaningful to me, however one wants to define God to mean. I am hoping it will be meaningful for you also. It is a poem by Edna St. Vincent Millay called Renascence, which means rebirth. (It only looks really long because of the format, but it is an easy read).

 

All I could see from where I stood

Was three long mountains and a wood;

I turned and looked another way,

And saw three islands in a bay.

So with my eyes I traced the line

Of the horizon, thin and fine,

Straight around till I was come

Back to where I'd started from;

And all I saw from where I stood

Was three long mountains and a wood.

Over these things I could not see;

These were the things that bounded me;

And I could touch them with my hand,

Almost, I thought, from where I stand.

And all at once things seemed so small

My breath came short, and scarce at all.

But, sure, the sky is big, I said;

Miles and miles above my head;

So here upon my back I'll lie

And look my fill into the sky.

And so I looked, and, after all,

The sky was not so very tall.

The sky, I said, must somewhere stop,

And -- sure enough! -- I see the top!

The sky, I thought, is not so grand;

I 'most could touch it with my hand!

And reaching up my hand to try,

I screamed to feel it touch the sky.

I screamed, and -- lo! -- Infinity

Came down and settled over me;

Forced back my scream into my chest,

Bent back my arm upon my breast,

And, pressing of the Undefined

The definition on my mind,

Held up before my eyes a glass

Through which my shrinking sight did pass

Until it seemed I must behold

Immensity made manifold;

Whispered to me a word whose sound

Deafened the air for worlds around,

And brought unmuffled to my ears

The gossiping of friendly spheres,

The creaking of the tented sky,

The ticking of Eternity.

I saw and heard, and knew at last

The How and Why of all things, past,

And present, and forevermore.

The Universe, cleft to the core,

Lay open to my probing sense

That, sick'ning, I would fain pluck thence

But could not, -- nay! But needs must suck

At the great wound, and could not pluck

My lips away till I had drawn

All venom out. -- Ah, fearful pawn!

For my omniscience paid I toll

In infinite remorse of soul.

All sin was of my sinning, all

Atoning mine, and mine the gall

Of all regret. Mine was the weight

Of every brooded wrong, the hate

That stood behind each envious thrust,

Mine every greed, mine every lust.

And all the while for every grief,

Each suffering, I craved relief

With individual desire, --

Craved all in vain! And felt fierce fire

About a thousand people crawl;

Perished with each, -- then mourned for all!

A man was starving in Capri;

He moved his eyes and looked at me;

I felt his gaze, I heard his moan,

And knew his hunger as my own.

I saw at sea a great fog bank

Between two ships that struck and sank;

A thousand screams the heavens smote;

And every scream tore through my throat.

No hurt I did not feel, no death

That was not mine; mine each last breath

That, crying, met an answering cry

From the compassion that was I.

All suffering mine, and mine its rod;

Mine, pity like the pity of God.

Ah, awful weight! Infinity

Pressed down upon the finite Me!

My anguished spirit, like a bird,

Beating against my lips I heard;

Yet lay the weight so close about

There was no room for it without.

And so beneath the weight lay I

And suffered death, but could not die.

 

Long had I lain thus, craving death,

When quietly the earth beneath

Gave way, and inch by inch, so great

At last had grown the crushing weight,

Into the earth I sank till I

Full six feet under ground did lie,

And sank no more, -- there is no weight

Can follow here, however great.

From off my breast I felt it roll,

And as it went my tortured soul

Burst forth and fled in such a gust

That all about me swirled the dust.

 

Deep in the earth I rested now;

Cool is its hand upon the brow

And soft its breast beneath the head

Of one who is so gladly dead.

And all at once, and over all

The pitying rain began to fall;

I lay and heard each pattering hoof

Upon my lowly, thatched roof,

And seemed to love the sound far more

Than ever I had done before.

For rain it hath a friendly sound

To one who's six feet underground;

And scarce the friendly voice or face:

A grave is such a quiet place.

 

The rain, I said, is kind to come

And speak to me in my new home.

I would I were alive again

To kiss the fingers of the rain,

To drink into my eyes the shine

Of every slanting silver line,

To catch the freshened, fragrant breeze

From drenched and dripping apple-trees.

For soon the shower will be done,

And then the broad face of the sun

Will laugh above the rain-soaked earth

Until the world with answering mirth

Shakes joyously, and each round drop

Rolls, twinkling, from its grass-blade top.

How can I bear it; buried here,

While overhead the sky grows clear

And blue again after the storm?

O, multi-colored, multiform,

Beloved beauty over me,

That I shall never, never see

Again! Spring-silver, autumn-gold,

That I shall never more behold!

Sleeping your myriad magics through,

Close-sepulchred away from you!

O God, I cried, give me new birth,

And put me back upon the earth!

Upset each cloud's gigantic gourd

And let the heavy rain, down-poured

In one big torrent, set me free,

Washing my grave away from me!

 

I ceased; and through the breathless hush

That answered me, the far-off rush

Of herald wings came whispering

Like music down the vibrant string

Of my ascending prayer, and -- crash!

Before the wild wind's whistling lash

The startled storm-clouds reared on high

And plunged in terror down the sky,

And the big rain in one black wave

Fell from the sky and struck my grave.

I know not how such things can be;

I only know there came to me

A fragrance such as never clings

To aught save happy living things;

A sound as of some joyous elf

Singing sweet songs to please himself,

And, through and over everything,

A sense of glad awakening.

The grass, a-tiptoe at my ear,

Whispering to me I could hear;

I felt the rain's cool finger-tips

Brushed tenderly across my lips,

Laid gently on my sealed sight,

And all at once the heavy night

Fell from my eyes and I could see, --

A drenched and dripping apple-tree,

A last long line of silver rain,

A sky grown clear and blue again.

And as I looked a quickening gust

Of wind blew up to me and thrust

Into my face a miracle

Of orchard-breath, and with the smell, --

I know not how such things can be! --

I breathed my soul back into me.

Ah! Up then from the ground sprang I

And hailed the earth with such a cry

As is not heard save from a man

Who has been dead, and lives again.

About the trees my arms I wound;

Like one gone mad I hugged the ground;

I raised my quivering arms on high;

I laughed and laughed into the sky,

Till at my throat a strangling sob

Caught fiercely, and a great heart-throb

Sent instant tears into my eyes;

O God, I cried, no dark disguise

Can e'er hereafter hide from me

Thy radiant identity!

Thou canst not move across the grass

But my quick eyes will see Thee pass,

Nor speak, however silently,

But my hushed voice will answer Thee.

I know the path that tells Thy way

Through the cool eve of every day;

God, I can push the grass apart

And lay my finger on Thy heart!

 

The world stands out on either side

No wider than the heart is wide;

Above the world is stretched the sky, --

No higher than the soul is high.

The heart can push the sea and land

Farther away on either hand;

The soul can split the sky in two,

And let the face of God shine through.

But East and West will pinch the heart

That can not keep them pushed apart;

And he whose soul is flat -- the sky

Will cave in on him by and by.

[Open_Minded]

For my omniscience paid I toll

In infinite remorse of soul.

All sin was of my sinning, all

Atoning mine, and mine the gall

Of all regret. Mine was the weight

Of every brooded wrong, the hate

That stood behind each envious thrust,

Mine every greed, mine every lust.

And all the while for every grief,

Each suffering, I craved relief

With individual desire, --

Craved all in vain! And felt fierce fire

About a thousand people crawl;

Perished with each, -- then mourned for all!

A man was starving in Capri;

He moved his eyes and looked at me;

I felt his gaze, I heard his moan,

And knew his hunger as my own.

I saw at sea a great fog bank

Between two ships that struck and sank;

A thousand screams the heavens smote;

And every scream tore through my throat.

No hurt I did not feel, no death

That was not mine; mine each last breath

That, crying, met an answering cry

From the compassion that was I.

All suffering mine, and mine its rod;

Mine, pity like the pity of God.

Ah, awful weight! Infinity

Pressed down upon the finite Me!

My anguished spirit, like a bird,

Beating against my lips I heard;

Yet lay the weight so close about

There was no room for it without.

And so beneath the weight lay I

And suffered death, but could not die.

 

Antlerman ... where did you find this poem? It struck me to the core. I printed it off and read it alone .... after this period in my life I searched and searched. I found explanations of this type of experience in both the east and the west ... but never anything like this. I am struck ... before I knew on an academic level that I was not alone. But ...now ... now I know that someone else has experienced this dynamic.

 

Thank you - from the depths of my soul - I thank you....

[Antlerman]

Antlerman ... where did you find this poem? It struck me to the core. I printed it off and read it alone .... after this period in my life I searched and searched. I found explanations of this type of experience in both the east and the west ... but never anything like this. I am struck ... before I knew on an academic level that I was not alone. But ...now ... now I know that someone else has experienced this dynamic.

 

Thank you - from the depths of my soul - I thank you....

I am deeply pleased that this was meaningful for you. I was hopeful it would be. This is why music, art, and poetry appear far more powerful tools to communicate a knowledge that surpasses common language. We hear the sounds and recognize the words and patterns, yet we understand with the heart what words cannot say.

[The Sage Nabooru]

Jesus was not a nice guy. He was actually pretty neurotic.

[Fweethawt]

I found explanations of this type of experience in both the east and the west ... but never anything like this. I am struck ... before I knew on an academic level that I was not alone. But ...now ... now I know that someone else has experienced this dynamic.

Much of that piece reads like a poetic description of a lot of what I felt during my final stages of deconversion.

 

Shit! I'd be willing to bet that many people here could relate to that writing.

 

 

U 2 R 2 - the mouse + 'E'

 

thanks Fweethawt ... it took me a second to get the joke, and then I had a good laugh.

NBBTB will get a kick out of it once she figures it out, too.

[Open_Minded]

Antlerman ... where did you find this poem? It struck me to the core. I printed it off and read it alone .... after this period in my life I searched and searched. I found explanations of this type of experience in both the east and the west ... but never anything like this. I am struck ... before I knew on an academic level that I was not alone. But ...now ... now I know that someone else has experienced this dynamic.

 

Thank you - from the depths of my soul - I thank you....

I am deeply pleased that this was meaningful for you. I was hopeful it would be. This is why music, art, and poetry appear far more powerful tools to communicate a knowledge that surpasses common language. We hear the sounds and recognize the words and patterns, yet we understand with the heart what words cannot say.

 

Yes ... you are right. Symbols often have ways of communicating a core concept far better than trying to spell it out.

 

I tend to want to spell it all out, and there are moments when I simply fail .. because it cannot be done. And then, when a poem comes along, like the one you've contributed above, it goes right to the core ...

 

Thank you again... now ... I must put in my final installment before Seabiscuit gets back.

 

_____

 

Fweethawt ... I just noticed your latest post...

 

 

Much of that piece reads like a poetic description of a lot of what I felt during my final stages of deconversion.

 

Shit! I'd be willing to bet that many people here could relate to that writing.

 

What parts of the poem connect with you?

[Fweethawt]

Fweethawt ... I just noticed your latest post...

Much of that piece reads like a poetic description of a lot of what I felt during my final stages of deconversion.

Shit! I'd be willing to bet that many people here could relate to that writing.

What parts of the poem connect with you?

Everything below that I highlighted in blue, including the words in your post.

 

Keep in mind now, these relations/connections were felt during a deconversion - not during a time that most people would consider "finding The Lord™".

 

Well ... during this particular period of my life... that dynamic came into play in very intense ways. It is impossible to put into words what I was feeling. And this part of the experience is what caused me so much concern ... that I might be loosing touch with reality. But, on very deep levels I was experiencing pain that was not "mine" so to speak.... One dimension of this experience was truly a dimension of feeling the pain of humanity. Feeling the pain caused by violence between people of different perspectives. It just enveloped me - as if I "owned" it. And I did not "own" it - but I felt it in that way.

For my omniscience paid I toll

In infinite remorse of soul.

All sin was of my sinning, all

Atoning mine, and mine the gall

Of all regret. Mine was the weight

Of every brooded wrong, the hate

That stood behind each envious thrust,

Mine every greed, mine every lust.

And all the while for every grief,

Each suffering, I craved relief

With individual desire, --

Craved all in vain! And felt fierce fire

About a thousand people crawl;

Perished with each, -- then mourned for all!

A man was starving in Capri;

He moved his eyes and looked at me;

I felt his gaze, I heard his moan,

And knew his hunger as my own.

I saw at sea a great fog bank

Between two ships that struck and sank;

A thousand screams the heavens smote;

And every scream tore through my throat.

No hurt I did not feel, no death

That was not mine; mine each last breath

That, crying, met an answering cry

From the compassion that was I.

All suffering mine, and mine its rod;

Mine, pity like the pity of God.

Ah, awful weight! Infinity

Pressed down upon the finite Me!

My anguished spirit, like a bird,

Beating against my lips I heard;

Yet lay the weight so close about

There was no room for it without.

And so beneath the weight lay I

And suffered death, but could not die.

 

Long had I lain thus, craving death,

When quietly the earth beneath

Gave way, and inch by inch, so great

At last had grown the crushing weight,

Into the earth I sank till I

Full six feet under ground did lie,

And sank no more, -- there is no weight

Can follow here, however great.

From off my breast I felt it roll,

And as it went my tortured soul

Burst forth and fled in such a gust

That all about me swirled the dust.

 

Deep in the earth I rested now;

Cool is its hand upon the brow

And soft its breast beneath the head

Of one who is so gladly dead.

And all at once, and over all

The pitying rain began to fall;

I lay and heard each pattering hoof

Upon my lowly, thatched roof,

And seemed to love the sound far more

Than ever I had done before.

For rain it hath a friendly sound

To one who's six feet underground;

And scarce the friendly voice or face:

A grave is such a quiet place.

 

The rain, I said, is kind to come

And speak to me in my new home.

I would I were alive again

To kiss the fingers of the rain,

To drink into my eyes the shine

Of every slanting silver line,

To catch the freshened, fragrant breeze

From drenched and dripping apple-trees.

For soon the shower will be done,

And then the broad face of the sun

Will laugh above the rain-soaked earth

Until the world with answering mirth

Shakes joyously, and each round drop

Rolls, twinkling, from its grass-blade top.

How can I bear it; buried here,

While overhead the sky grows clear

And blue again after the storm?

O, multi-colored, multiform,

Beloved beauty over me,

That I shall never, never see

Again! Spring-silver, autumn-gold,

That I shall never more behold!

Sleeping your myriad magics through,

Close-sepulchred away from you!

O God, I cried, give me new birth,

And put me back upon the earth!

Upset each cloud's gigantic gourd

And let the heavy rain, down-poured

In one big torrent, set me free,

Washing my grave away from me!

 

I ceased; and through the breathless hush

That answered me, the far-off rush

Of herald wings came whispering

Like music down the vibrant string

Of my ascending prayer, and -- crash!

Before the wild wind's whistling lash

The startled storm-clouds reared on high

And plunged in terror down the sky,

And the big rain in one black wave

Fell from the sky and struck my grave.

I know not how such things can be;

I only know there came to me

A fragrance such as never clings

To aught save happy living things;

A sound as of some joyous elf

Singing sweet songs to please himself,

And, through and over everything,

A sense of glad awakening.

The grass, a-tiptoe at my ear,

Whispering to me I could hear;

I felt the rain's cool finger-tips

Brushed tenderly across my lips,

Laid gently on my sealed sight,

And all at once the heavy night

Fell from my eyes and I could see, --

A drenched and dripping apple-tree,

A last long line of silver rain,

A sky grown clear and blue again.

And as I looked a quickening gust

Of wind blew up to me and thrust

Into my face a miracle

Of orchard-breath, and with the smell, --

I know not how such things can be! --

I breathed my soul back into me.

Ah! Up then from the ground sprang I

And hailed the earth with such a cry

As is not heard save from a man

Who has been dead, and lives again.

About the trees my arms I wound;

Like one gone mad I hugged the ground;

I raised my quivering arms on high;

I laughed and laughed into the sky,

Till at my throat a strangling sob

Caught fiercely, and a great heart-throb

Sent instant tears into my eyes;

O God, I cried, no dark disguise

Can e'er hereafter hide from me

Thy radiant identity!

Thou canst not move across the grass

But my quick eyes will see Thee pass,

Nor speak, however silently,

But my hushed voice will answer Thee.

I know the path that tells Thy way

Through the cool eve of every day;

God, I can push the grass apart

And lay my finger on Thy heart!

 

The world stands out on either side

No wider than the heart is wide;

Above the world is stretched the sky, --

No higher than the soul is high.

The heart can push the sea and land

Farther away on either hand;

The soul can split the sky in two,

And let the face of God shine through.

But East and West will pinch the heart

That can not keep them pushed apart;

And he whose soul is flat -- the sky

Will cave in on him by and by.

 

Finding out that was all a lie, was similar to a "death".

Regrouping and rising above the pain from that experience, was similar to a new "birth".

 

Yes, we unbelievers go through a "born-again" experience, too.

[Open_Minded]

Hello Seabiscuit ... here is my final installment on your last post. This conversation has many layers. Feel free to choose which one you'd like to focus on for now and we'll follow the path where it leads us.

 

I do know what you mean when you say that the connection never goes away. I think this IS your higher (or true) self. To me this is an inner awareness of infinite WISDOM/LOVE.

What troubles me is that I have felt intense feelings of unworthiness. To think there is a part of me that is True or Higher is humbling. When I look back at my saying good bye to my connection, I met that part of me for the first time. A fried told me that he saw me as an advocate. I said absolutely no! He said that when you change yourself, you've changed a part of the world because we're all a part of the world.

 

When I think about you, Antlerman, Soul in Crisis, and others on this board, I feel like not only am I part of the word but a part of a collective consciousness. Do you know what I mean? Kind of like the same energy that runs through the nature I watch at the bridge is also in the people around me. Because no everyone is "safe" my little theory falls apart. What are your thoughts on collective consciousness?

 

Well I definitely believe there is a collective consciousness - an interconnectedness. Like you said, "the same energy that runs through the nature I watch at the bridge is also in the people around me".

 

Or as I mentioned in an earlier installment ....

 

To me... "the energy that runs through everything" IS LOVE.

 

See... I'm with Dr. King - love is more than the "emotional bosh" that we associate it with. We associate "love" with our feelings for other people. This is not bad - but it is limiting. LOVE is energy within and of itself. It does not need us, nor does it exist because we give it life. WE participate in LOVE, not the other way around.

 

Again - what I'm writing is just my subjective opinion. It is NOT scientific fact. But, to me,

the underlying - foundational energy of all creation is an energy which brings order from disorder. And, subjectively - I understand this energy as LOVE energy

.

 

When I have experienced love in its highest and purest forms - it has consistently been an experience of bringing a natural (not enforced) order into my life. As a child, the unconditional love of my parents brought order to my life. And as I grew the love of extended family, friends, neighbors, etc... contributed to the "order" in my life. And when I married, the love my husband and I shared brought a different kind of "order" into my life. So with the love I've given and received from my children. Pure love, not "love" someone says they are giving you at the same time that they are making your life chaotic. No ... pure love always comes with a sense of "rightness" or "order". A natural "order" not one enforced from outside, but an "order" that naturally occurs because the energy of "love" is present.

 

So ... back to your illustration about being out of doors. I love to flower garden, and when I am out in my garden I see this energy of natural and unfolding order everywhere. If I plant a morning glory seed, only a morning glory will sprout from that seed. When a rose bud blossoms into a flower, it is fascinating to watch the patterns with which each pedal will come forth from the bud.

 

This supreme unifying principle of life that Dr. King referred to, does not just unify humanity, nor different religions or cultures. This

supreme unifying principal is also a supreme unifying energy

. As you said, "

the energy that runs through everything

".

 

But, Seabiscuit ... you are right:

 

Because not everyone is "safe" my little theory falls apart.

 

Life is not "safe" for anyone ... and humans feel it should be.

 

I guess part of what I've learned throughout the years is that LOVE does not make me safe, ever. LOVE is what I need to live - pure and simple. And, like Dr. King, I am not talking about "emotional bosh". That is only a beginning, I am talking about the Energy of LOVE which acts as the "supreme unifying force" for all of creation.

 

In my life I have learned that I can choose to actively participate in this energy/force, or I can choose not to. It is not easy to make this choice either, there is not one person reading this post that cannot think of times in their lives when they have had to make the choice. And sometimes choosing to participate in LOVE (pure, unconditional LOVE) just sucks. It really does. It sucks to have to love some people unconditionally - it is not easy.

 

Now do not misunderstand what I am saying here ... no one should put up with abuse. Abuse is NOT love, it is the opposite of love. It is NOT of the true self.

 

But sometimes - we are called from deep within ourselves to LOVE when it is not easy or convienent to do so.

 

When I think of this unifying energy - I do believe there is healing involved. But - in part - the healing happens because we make a conscious decision to participate in this energy.

 

There is chaos in the world, I do believe this. There is also a foundational energy of the universe which unifies all and makes all whole - the very essence of this energy - it's ability to unify and make whole -is healing. But ... it does not mean there will be no pain. ... or that we will always be safe. LOVE/WISDOM is the source of strength to deal with chaos. Chaos is present in creation - but there is an underlying unifying force (LOVE/WISDOM) which heals. It is the source of our strength in the face of adversity.

 

Seabiscuit ... I don't claim to have all the answers. I really don't. What I've written here are my personal subjective feelings. If you have read any of Antlerman's and my conversations you will know that importance of recognizing that one's position is subjective. I truly do hope others jump in with their own perspectives. As I've said in many other posts, the answers (the wisdom) is not found in one person's answers. But in the communal search for answers.

 

I look forward to your thoughts on these installments. Thank you for restarting this thread ... the conversation interests me greatly.

[Open_Minded]

Fweethawt ... I just noticed your latest post...

Much of that piece reads like a poetic description of a lot of what I felt during my final stages of deconversion.

Shit! I'd be willing to bet that many people here could relate to that writing.

What parts of the poem connect with you?

Everything below that I highlighted in blue, including the words in your post.

 

Keep in mind now, these relations/connections were felt during a deconversion - not during a time that most people would consider "finding The Lord™".

 

<snip> to save room..

 

Finding out that was all a lie, was similar to a "death".

Regrouping and rising above the pain from that experience, was similar to a new "birth".

 

Yes, we unbelievers go through a "born-again" experience, too.

 

Fweethawt.... do you remember the first post on this page when you start to tease me about being "chruchy"?

 

(notblindedbytheblight @ Mar 9 2006, 04:12 PM)In the end the contemplative suffers the anguish of realizing that he no longer knows what God is.

NotBlinded -- I would wish for every Christian that s/he would anguish over realizing that "he no longer knows what God is."

 

The problem is that when people come to this pivotal point on their spiritual journey they do one of two things. They retreat - or they force forward to find the answers.

 

I think that is why I enjoy this board so much, when folks here reached that pivotal point on their journey - they pushed forward to find answers.

 

What I find fascinating is that you and I from such different perspectives, can find commonalities in that poem. Our experiences are obviously similar - and yet we arrive at different solutions. I suppose it goes to our lives before the experience, no....

[Seabiscuit]

Antlerman, I've been feeling lost today and a little depressed. Thanks SO VERY, VERY much for sharing this poem. It gives me something to think about and speaks volumes to me. I will print this off and read again!

 

I love this poet! I only know a few poems and had only heard the first part of this one. THanks so much for sharing the entire thing.

 

Open_Minded, I'm coming back to our conversation. I've read through your comments and will respond after I give your thoughts careful consideration!

 

This conversaion and the people in it are very meaningful to me! I'm excited to be a part of it!

 

s

[Seabiscuit]

Open_Minded, Before I leave today, I wanted to share a thought. We've been talking about false self/true self and the symbol of the cross. I was asking myself how the layers of our conversation might fit together.

 

As a small perfectionistic child and daughter of an artist, I tore up many of the things I created. The embarrassment of my own originality was too much to live with so I destroyed it. Who I have been and am as a original human can bring me embarrassment too.

 

I know "death" to one part of ourselves and a rebirth to a new is very important and I don't mean to deminish it!

 

However, I'm wondering about the comment that we both made about accepting our false selves. To me, it would be less embaracing, less anxiety, and less emotion to just crucify my false self and get it over and done with. As a indiviudal with an anxeity disorder and PTSD, killing off parts of myself takes less courage then living with my original parts. There's something rich about trying new things and learning from mistakes or what didn't work in a particular situation. Originality, at least to me, equals vulnerablity. Realizing this has been healing to me allowing me to experience myself and my connections to others in my life more positively and with less anxeity.

 

 

Learning to accept my false self and not crucify it takes more courage. This doesn't really make sense because our true selves would be more nurturing. Maybe I have more then one false self.

 

Ha, this is all subject too. Go figure! (BTW, I'm on a MAC that won't allow me to use faces or I'd be using them.)

 

I hope I'm making sense. What are your thoughts on this? Antlerman creates original art, right? Can you relate, Antlerman?