Open_Minded Posted January 9, 2006 Share Posted January 9, 2006 I think I would like to add a verse to the Book of Ecclesiastes, “There is a time to analyze, and there is a time to live.” This is the leap. And there is a time to dance I'm not musically inclined... but one of the most wonderful "leaps" I've ever experienced is the "music of creation". I didn't understand it then, and don't understand it now... but it was wonderful and you put it very wisely, Antlerman... there is a time to analyze, and there is a time to live I am coming to understand that battle of man is that of the mind. There are different ways of knowing. They are not mutually exclusive. But it seems the trick is to respect and accept the merits of each approach, both in how others do, and in our own selves. I think we look at one and see it as diametrically opposed to the other – or even “wrong”, and those that embrace the opposite way of knowing would see things the same way. Yet one without the other it seems would be incomplete. I am finally seeing that there is a fine balancing act that can bring these approaches together. I agree. It took me so long to accept the validity of subjective "knowing", and only in the past 4-5 years have I been willing to explore the other "knowing" or "perceiving" that we have been talking about here. Just last night - at 3:00 a.m. actually - I came to the conclusion that this other way of knowing is WONDER. It's so simple, really, Antlerman. All along I"ve believed this inner "knowing" had to be natural and available to every human. We all have the capacity to "wonder", it just never occurred to me that this capacity could also be a way of perceiving. But, think about it, when you are in your highest states of wonder - there is an inner perception happening. You can be in a very mundane situation and yet something inside you perceives grandness and beauty and something infinitely beyond human capacity to fully comprehend. It is the capacity for wonder in you that perceives this. Like we noted way back at the beginning of this conversation, the natural state of a child is wonder What is fascinating about this way of "perceiving" or "knowing" is that one does not have to have an answer for what one perceives. At least not in the moment. One can just live it. As you said, "there is a time to analyze, and there is a time to live". One gets carried away in it and there is no longer subjective or objective - there is only the moment. The classic living in the "now" that is so important in any mystic tradition that I've studied. And when the wonder recedes, as it must, we are left a changed person, with a taste that does not leave us .... one we must explore with our rational mind and define with subjective tools like language and music and art. Does this make any sense at all????????? Reclaiming the language is what you are speaking of. Yes, I hadn't been able to articulate it this way. But you are right. It's been such a struggle at times that it never occurred to me that this is what is happening. But - it is good that it seems to be happening on a grander scale, I am only a student. Wayne Teasdale, Father Keating and others are leading the way. Actually, Wayne Teasdale passed away last October (I believe it was October). Quite sad actually, I find myself speaking of him in present tense - and have to catch myself. Now to my point: It does not address matters of spiritual growth. Fundamentalism, like Intelligent Design Theory only offer quick and easy feel good answers to complex issues. In the long run they don’t give people what they are looking for either. Your group is a sign of this evolution of Christianity into something other than the traditional, out-dated Northern European version of Christianity brought by our immigrant forbearers. As you said, there are those in your church who are open to the change, and those who want their flavor of traditional Christianity. What I see as a major difference in what you have to offer though is that it is forward thinking; it is about growth and becoming more. It addresses the true pursuit of something bigger than what has preceded it. I believe that this or something like this is what inevitably will be what most people in the main will find addresses their spiritual, emotional, and social needs far more than those pounding their pulpits and crying “truth”. The majority of people just quietly do not respond to that and will eventually walk away – likely toward something of reason and moderation in spiritual beliefs. This is why I think your Synod is in favor of your efforts. They see this and are testing the water with this approach to the problem, so to speak. I hope you are right Antlerman. I have my optimistic days, and then there are days when I just am not sure. We keep plugging away, and on my frustrating days I don't give up because the elderly, more conservative people of our congregation rearranged worship schedules to fit this in. They have supported this even when they have not understood it. And for that we are grateful and we all owe them, and so we keep pushing forward, affirming that enough people will commit to this to make it go long-term. Anyway... thank you so much for all of this conversation. So much of what you have said helped me put pieces of the puzzle in place - that different perspective that is so important to a well rounded learning experience. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NotBlinded Posted January 9, 2006 Share Posted January 9, 2006 I am coming to understand that battle of man is that of the mind. There are different ways of knowing. They are not mutually exclusive. But it seems the trick is to respect and accept the merits of each approach, both in how others do, and in our own selves. I think we look at one and see it as diametrically opposed to the other – or even “wrong”, and those that embrace the opposite way of knowing would see things the same way. Yet one without the other it seems would be incomplete. I am finally seeing that there is a fine balancing act that can bring these approaches together. Beautiful... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alice Posted January 9, 2006 Share Posted January 9, 2006 Does this answer your question? Wow - yes. And more. The information about the meaning of 'sin' and 'evil' in aramaic has been the topic of conversation around my dinner table this this evening. It fits in with recent discussions we have been having about 'eternal' life and heaven and hell - which I am coming to see much more in terms of the heritage we leave and the direction we take our lives and the lives of those around us in. I love the post that follows - and my 'experience' reading it acted as an illustration for me of what I think you were trying to say. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Open_Minded Posted January 9, 2006 Share Posted January 9, 2006 The information about the meaning of 'sin' and 'evil' in aramaic has been the topic of conversation around my dinner table this this evening. It fits in with recent discussions we have been having about 'eternal' life and heaven and hell - which I am coming to see much more in terms of the heritage we leave and the direction we take our lives and the lives of those around us in. Hesitent: If the Aramaic language, its impact on our understanding of the words of Jesus interests you, then you should get the CD study we are doing. It can be found at this website:http://www.abwoon.com/origin.html Neil Douglas-Klotz has also written many books that are available in our local library. Neil is a perfect example of interspirituality. He was raised Christian with heavy exposure to the Jewish faith and has studied and considers himself Sufi. So, he brings much depth to his work on the study of Aramaic and its impact on the way the gospels can be read. I love the post that follows - and my 'experience' reading it acted as an illustration for me of what I think you were trying to say. Thank you... sometimes it's difficult to convey one's thoughts. Your comments are kind words indeed Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Antlerman Posted January 9, 2006 Share Posted January 9, 2006 It's so simple, really, Antlerman. All along I"ve believed this inner "knowing" had to be natural and available to every human. We all have the capacity to "wonder", it just never occurred to me that this capacity could also be a way of perceiving. But, think about it, when you are in your highest states of wonder - there is an inner perception happening. You can be in a very mundane situation and yet something inside you perceives grandness and beauty and something infinitely beyond human capacity to fully comprehend. It is the capacity for wonder in you that perceives this. Like we noted way back at the beginning of this conversation, the natural state of a child is wonder What is fascinating about this way of "perceiving" or "knowing" is that one does not have to have an answer for what one perceives. At least not in the moment. One can just live it. As you said, "there is a time to analyze, and there is a time to live". One gets carried away in it and there is no longer subjective or objective - there is only the moment. The classic living in the "now" that is so important in any mystic tradition that I've studied. And when the wonder recedes, as it must, we are left a changed person, with a taste that does not leave us .... one we must explore with our rational mind and define with subjective tools like language and music and art. Does this make any sense at all????????? Does this make any sense?? More sense than it ever has. The struggle for me is what appears to have become a perceived dichotomy. I experience both rationality and wonder. Somehow it had become this opposition of sorts. I'm going to have to ponder at what point this outlook occurred for me. I used to know the world through that perception of "wonder" as you put it so well. I think perhaps the whole problem began with theology. This teaching that things are to be taken by faith and embraced as transcendent of knowledge, then offering rational proofs for them!! Maybe it became a matter becoming torn into two trying to define the indefinable with an exegetical analysis? To approach the experience of the spirit with reason? Or maybe somehow personally I came to distrust it because I became so off the path in my rationality pursuing spirituality through theological knowledge? Like I said, I'm not sure. I'll have to chew on this. My reactions have become cynical in the extreme of people saying things like they "know through the spirit," then go off onto some nonsense like "God told them to do such and such". I've seen so much absolute nonsense theology come out of these "revelations", so much dysfunctional ideas about "God's will" being shown "through the spirit", and on and on the list goes. Maybe I feared going down some road of idiot irrationality through the open up of self to the experience of the spirit? Your answers to my questions earlier about checks and balances dealing with "knowledge" gained by mystical experience, are helping me to see that this sort of knowledge can be centered, but has to be checked just any other sort of knowledge does. How many times have you and I seen logic running loose and free without balance? I can think of more than just a few quasi-scientific sounded wacky ideas I've heard in my lifetime. Wonder. Yes I think you have it. I think it's perfect how you said this: "And when the wonder recedes, as it must, we are left a changed person, with a taste that does not leave us .... one we must explore with our rational mind and define with subjective tools like language and music and art." My mystical experience I mentioned before left me a changed person, not temporarily, but forever. It was a moment without time in which I was, for lack of any other possible words, fully alive. We breathe in the wonder of the moment, and walk away changed with renewed life and vision which we pass through our words and actions to the world around us. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Open_Minded Posted January 10, 2006 Share Posted January 10, 2006 Wonder. Yes I think you have it. I think it's perfect how you said this: "And when the wonder recedes, as it must, we are left a changed person, with a taste that does not leave us .... one we must explore with our rational mind and define with subjective tools like language and music and art." My mystical experience I mentioned before left me a changed person, not temporarily, but forever. It was a moment without time in which I was, for lack of any other possible words, fully alive. We breathe in the wonder of the moment, and walk away changed with renewed life and vision which we pass through our words and actions to the world around us. Amen, Antlerman, A...men.... So, now that we have both grown a bit - the question becomes, where do we take this conversation? Do we invite others in to discuss specific things from an interspiritual perspective???? There are so many things worth discussing in an interspiritual manner. Mystical paths are a real part of eastern religions, native American religions and other earth religions. The multiple perspectives about specific disciplines and experiences would be interesting. I'm open to ideas.... Tonight we have our meditation group... but I do look forward to any ideas you have .... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Antlerman Posted January 10, 2006 Share Posted January 10, 2006 So, now that we have both grown a bit - the question becomes, where do we take this conversation? Do we invite others in to discuss specific things from an interspiritual perspective???? There are so many things worth discussing in an interspiritual manner. Mystical paths are a real part of eastern religions, native American religions and other earth religions. The multiple perspectives about specific disciplines and experiences would be interesting. I'm open to ideas.... Tonight we have our meditation group... but I do look forward to any ideas you have .... Yes, I've been feeling a sort of wrapping up of this first chapter. Knowing myself, I suspect I'm going to revisit some of the same questions as I continue to process all that we've discussed. This being a symptom of my age: having moments of epiphany only to be left with knowing the answer was 42, then forgetting the question. I have been wanting to open up a topic of mythology and symbols, which you and I have touched on a lot in here, but I've wanted to get through this first with you before focusing on that. The symbols for me are both important and a stumbling for myself, and I would suspect those like me. You're being able to do this genuinely impresses me. But maybe it will be nothing I can ever do - sad really. Of course having people of other disciplines of mysticism talking about mystical knowledge and rational thought would be a great topic to expand our awareness and appreciation of the world. I really don't know if I can "plan" a topic. These are things that are in my spirit to explore, but I have zero doubts that this shall continue.... P.S. I'm sitting here listening to a pristine copy of Billy Holiday on vinyl. Now this speaks to the soul of life! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cerise Posted January 10, 2006 Share Posted January 10, 2006 Ah Billy...everytime I hear "Strange Fruit" I get shivers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Antlerman Posted January 10, 2006 Share Posted January 10, 2006 Ah Billy...everytime I hear "Strange Fruit" I get shivers. I just finished listening to this double album I bought tonight and am sitting here not able to put on another record. It's like nothing else can be said after that. I am so... without words. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Open_Minded Posted January 10, 2006 Share Posted January 10, 2006 Yes, I've been feeling a sort of wrapping up of this first chapter. Knowing myself, I suspect I'm going to revisit some of the same questions as I continue to process all that we've discussed. This being a symptom of my age: having moments of epiphany only to be left with knowing the answer was 42, then forgetting the question. ... I'm not sure ... are you 42??? Because if you feel old at 42, then I'm in trouble I have been wanting to open up a topic of mythology and symbols, which you and I have touched on a lot in here, but I've wanted to get through this first with you before focusing on that. The symbols for me are both important and a stumbling for myself, and I would suspect those like me. You're being able to do this genuinely impresses me. But maybe it will be nothing I can ever do - sad really. Of course having people of other disciplines of mysticism talking about mystical knowledge and rational thought would be a great topic to expand our awareness and appreciation of the world. I really don't know if I can "plan" a topic. These are things that are in my spirit to explore, but I have zero doubts that this shall continue.... Whatever you want to pursue, Antlerman. I remain open minded Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NotBlinded Posted January 10, 2006 Share Posted January 10, 2006 I wanna play. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Antlerman Posted January 10, 2006 Share Posted January 10, 2006 ... I'm not sure ... are you 42??? Because if you feel old at 42, then I'm in trouble The refernce to 42 was from Hitchhiker's Guide. It was the answer to everything, but by the time they learned it, they had forgotten the question. I'm actually still in my early teens. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NotBlinded Posted January 10, 2006 Share Posted January 10, 2006 I'm actually still in my early teens. Really, wow! I wish I would have seen things like you do when I was in my early teens...a few...well...okay...more than a few...years ago. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Antlerman Posted January 10, 2006 Share Posted January 10, 2006 I wanna play. You're always welcome to jump in whenever you like. I'm sure I'll have something eating me to flesh out, but you're more than welcome to bring up anything for discussion too. I'm actually still in my early teens. Really, wow! I wish I would have seen things like you do when I was in my early teens...a few...well...okay...more than a few...years ago. Yeah, my teachers at school think I a big pain in the ass, always questioning why they assume so damned many things are true. They hate it when I won't let them get away with saying it's just the way it is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Open_Minded Posted January 10, 2006 Share Posted January 10, 2006 The refernce to 42 was from Hitchhiker's Guide. It was the answer to everything, but by the time they learned it, they had forgotten the question. I'm actually still in my early teens. Me thinks you're having some fun here Antlerman From an earlier post - I took it you must work on computer systems. I develop database applications - and I've yet to meet anyone who works on computer systems younger than a college intern. I was just working in someone's office on a system and heard this unbelievable drivel spewing forth out the mouth of a radio talk show host that was politically, and morally offensive, lumping groups of people of various races and ethnicity together and labeling them as this and that. To say nothing of the fact that you are quite mature for an early teen But, hey... this is the internet and we're all allowed our anonymity right I wanna play. Hey... Notblinded.... come on in and join us. You're always welcome. Take a turn, choose a topic, throw out a question... we're game Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Antlerman Posted January 10, 2006 Share Posted January 10, 2006 Me thinks you're having some fun here Antlerman Me? Never, I believe in misery and suffering as the road to happiness. From an earlier post - I took it you must work on computer systems. I develop database applications - and I've yet to meet anyone who works on computer systems younger than a college intern. Ok now, you just pay too damned close of attention! I won't declare my title over the Internet, but suffice to say, that if I said my name, my life would be in danger DBA? SQL, Oracle, other? Oh oh, here comes the TLAs!! (three letter acronyms). To say nothing of the fact that you are quite mature for an early teen But, hey... this is the internet and we're all allowed our anonymity right Anonymity? Huh? Hey wait, my mom's calling me.... gotta go... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Open_Minded Posted January 10, 2006 Share Posted January 10, 2006 Ok now, you just pay too damned close of attention! I won't declare my title over the Internet, but suffice to say, that if I said my name, my life would be in danger DBA? SQL, Oracle, other? Oh oh, here comes the TLAs!! (three letter acronyms) None of the above.... I'm just a lowly Access developer. Been in business for myself for 10 years now and work on Access applications 40+ hours a week. My larger databases have SQL backends. There is plenty of work for me since every other application developer in the area looks down their nose at Access So what type of work do you do? Networking, application development???? Oh... and when's the last time you stooped low enough to talk with an Access developer Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Antlerman Posted January 10, 2006 Share Posted January 10, 2006 So what type of work do you do? Networking, application development???? Oh... and when's the last time you stooped low enough to talk with an Access developer Actually about 2 hours ago. We have one on staff, but the Access piece is just the front end. SQL is our backend, but we have one app runing oracle for our PDM. I'm the Network Administrator: 'Routers and Switches and Hubs, oh my!' Servers, firewalls, AV, Internet, security, workstaions, policies, printers, politics, and all the stuff that comes along with the role. I often don't realize how it shows sometimes when I speak about people and use terms like, "this user said..." I don't even think about it and wonder if that sounds weird when I don't catch myself referring to people in roles like that. We were driving down the street the other day and I said to the driver, "Look out for the end user!" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ouroboros Posted January 10, 2006 Share Posted January 10, 2006 I wish there were windshield wipers for programmers to get rid of the bugs... You know what happens when you drop a computer on your toes? It mega hertz. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Open_Minded Posted January 11, 2006 Share Posted January 11, 2006 Actually about 2 hours ago. We have one on staff, but the Access piece is just the front end. SQL is our backend, but we have one app runing oracle for our PDM. Wow.. I'm impressed Does your staff pro work in Access fulltime? Seriously, I could count on one hand the number of Access pros out here, and most of the time we have to work very hard to earn the respect of the IT folks. It's been 10 years since I started this business - with time and energy things have changed. But, I always step lightly with any client's IT crew I'm the Network Administrator: 'Routers and Switches and Hubs, oh my!' Servers, firewalls, AV, Internet, security, workstaions, policies, printers, politics, and all the stuff that comes along with the role. I don't envy you your position. One of my favorite things about owning my own business is the lack of politics that comes with it. I may whine about not getting any respect, but at the end of the day I get to leave it behind me in a way that I wouldn't be able to if I were in the office 40+ hours a week. I often don't realize how it shows sometimes when I speak about people and use terms like, "this user said..." I don't even think about it and wonder if that sounds weird when I don't catch myself referring to people in roles like that. We were driving down the street the other day and I said to the driver, "Look out for the end user!" I hear you there.... when my children were younger and I was helping them with math I'd catch myself writing formulas out in SQL One of my brother's also works in information systems. Our mother tells us we get "paid to play". I can't argue with that assessment Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Antlerman Posted January 11, 2006 Share Posted January 11, 2006 Wow.. I'm impressed Does your staff pro work in Access fulltime? No he does our web stuff, plus other applications writing, etc. He's kind of jack of all trades. We actually do have a couple access 2.0 databases floating out there. Stuff end users wrote, then dropped on IT once it didn't work right. We no longer allow anyone to have Access installed outside of the RT version of it. Damned Access programmer wanabees! The whole thing is getting them to go through the IS dept for technical solutions, rather then creating unmanageble nightmares they get dependent on that don't work with anything else on the network. Actually through much effort, their's a great relationship now with them. They understand it works more effectively to have us do it instead, plus they can focus on what they're supposed to be doing. I'm sure you know that scenario. Anyway, what this has to do with transcendent espisitmological methodologies, I'll never know. (Just taking a mental break I guess) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Open_Minded Posted January 11, 2006 Share Posted January 11, 2006 No he does our web stuff, plus other applications writing, etc. He's kind of jack of all trades. See, now that's why I refered to myself as a lowly Access pro It is rare to meet someone working Access fulltime. We no longer allow anyone to have Access installed outside of the RT version of it. Damned Access programmer wanabees! The whole thing is getting them to go through the IS dept for technical solutions, rather then creating unmanageble nightmares they get dependent on that don't work with anything else on the network. Actually through much effort, their's a great relationship now with them. They understand it works more effectively to have us do it instead, plus they can focus on what they're supposed to be doing. I'm sure you know that scenario. Ahh.... more than you know. But, it's not so bad really. When they get themselves in a pickle I get the phone call ....Ohhh... the stories I could tell Anyway, what this has to do with transcendent espisitmological methodologies, I'll never know. (Just taking a mental break I guess) Yes.... you are right.... Here Notblinded wants to come out and play and we're over in the corner talking tech..... Ahh well anytime you're ready to move on just let me know, like Notblinded, I'm quite willing to play Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NotBlinded Posted January 11, 2006 Share Posted January 11, 2006 Like, yeah...that was just totally boring...yawn... just kiddin' Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Antlerman Posted January 11, 2006 Share Posted January 11, 2006 Like, yeah...that was just totally boring...yawn... just kiddin' What? You think involved discussions about the TCP/IP stack in the OSI model, using Cisco L3 swithes with QOS and Large Frame capability for VLAN support for iSCSI SAN backbones is boring? Bite your tongue! There be hidden messages in all those packets, but one must know how the read the trace, to seek the wisdom. Ok, ok, I'll get back to the important stuff in a few Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NotBlinded Posted January 11, 2006 Share Posted January 11, 2006 What? You think involved discussions about the TCP/IP stack in the OSI model, using Cisco L3 swithes with QOS and Large Frame capability for VLAN support for iSCSI SAN backbones is boring? Bite your tongue! There be hidden messages in all those packets, but one must know how the read the trace, to seek the wisdom. Ok, ok, I'll get back to the important stuff in a few OMG! That was just priceless! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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