Leaving Jesus is not Leaving God!

[Asimov]

"Leaving Jesus was not leaving God"

 

Again we come down to reality that a man is asking us to believe in his truth. 100 men in a line all have their flavors of truth, each making them feel better.

 

Can you say irony? I can't believe you could actually type that without feeling like an ass, I know I would.

 

This "spirituality" is at its core, selfishness. Selfishness cannot be of God. Selfishness is the very core of most of the brutal evil and pain that takes place in our world. Selfishness, or the will to be "little gods" is the story of the first chapters of Genesis. Trust God, or seek your own path. It was the first lie...the big lie. And will forever be the big lie. Life was not meant to be lived and processed apart from God.

 

The only lie is your propensity to self-righteously proclaim that you contain the truth written down by primitives who self-righteously proclaimed that they held the truth.

[Mythra]

PastorSteve. Our newest chomping material.

 

Shall we start a pool in the clubhouse to guess how long this thumper will last?

 

I say he's a one-hit wonder.

 

"Take Jesus out of the equation and you lose the truth, life and way, and you are left wife a lie, death, and a fallse way. Take Jesus away and you are a son of the father of lies, the devil.

 

Got news for ya pastor. Jesus is the lie. You have bought off on one of the biggest deceptions in human history. Stick with us, dude. We'll help you escape. We'll shine the light of truth on the dark stench that is religious fundamentalism.

 

Hey, I just noticed you called Satan a murderer. Who did Satan murder? I mean, I know who God murdered, including ACHAN'S LITTLE KIDS. But who did Satan murder?

[Checkmate]

PastorSteve. Our newest chomping material.

 

Shall we start a pool in the clubhouse to guess how long this thumper will last?

 

I say he's a one-hit wonder.

...............

He's a fundy. They have longer staying power. I give him a week. If he lasts longer than this, then I suppose I'll have to enter the fray and get nasty. You just KNOW how much I despise fundamentalists.

[Asimov]

Hey, I just noticed you called Satan a murderer. Who did Satan murder? I mean, I know who God murdered, including ACHAN'S LITTLE KIDS. But who did Satan murder?

 

Interestingly enough, Murder is the unlawful killing of one human being to another...Satan isn't a human being, so he can't murder people.

[pug]

Hey, I just noticed you called Satan a murderer. Who did Satan murder? I mean, I know who God murdered, including ACHAN'S LITTLE KIDS. But who did Satan murder?

 

Interestingly enough, Murder is the unlawful killing of one human being to another...Satan isn't a human being, so he can't murder people.

 

Satan gets humans to murder other humans.

[Caretaker]

Hey, I just noticed you called Satan a murderer. Who did Satan murder? I mean, I know who God murdered, including ACHAN'S LITTLE KIDS. But who did Satan murder?

 

Interestingly enough, Murder is the unlawful killing of one human being to another...Satan isn't a human being, so he can't murder people.

 

Satan gets humans to murder other humans.

Do you have any empirical data to back up this claim? Any murders you can show beyond a reasonable doubt were caused by Satan's command?

 

Shit... Can you even prove Satan's existence? Because you have to prove his existence before you can prove he commands murders.

[pug]

Do you have any empirical data to back up this claim? Any murders you can show beyond a reasonable doubt were caused by Satan's command?

None.

 

 

Shit... Can you even prove Satan's existence? Because you have to prove his existence before you can prove he commands murders.

No. Shit... do you want to sue me now?

[pug]

Satan gets humans to murder other humans.

 

According to the bible it is God who does the murdering, he takes credit all by his himself, doesn't appear to be at all guilty about it either. There is no blame on the devil in the OT, only worshippers of devils...that is in KJV, other versions call devils, demons but still no blame.

 

According to me, it is still too early to get excited. Leave it to da devil to make you think da devil is not to be blamed for a single thing. Da devil is reputed to be quite good at that. Look what da devil make ya post.

 

Kidding. No such creature right?

[Mythra]

Satan gets humans to murder other humans.

 

What an interesting coincidence!

 

That's the same way that God does it.

 

[Caretaker]

Do you have any empirical data to back up this claim? Any murders you can show beyond a reasonable doubt were caused by Satan's command?

None.

 

 

Shit... Can you even prove Satan's existence? Because you have to prove his existence before you can prove he commands murders.

No. Shit... do you want to sue me now?

So then why do you dare make that claim if you can't back it up?

[Antlerman]

 

Again we come down to reality that a man is asking us to believe in his truth. 100 men in a line all have their flavors of truth, each making them feel better. This "spirituality" is at its core, selfishness. Selfishness cannot be of God.

 

Come unto me all ye who are weary and heavy laden and I shall give you rest

Selfish, selfish, selfish!!! You should not come to Jesus seeking rest and peace because that's selfish! Seeking to feel better is BAD! You need to worship God through misery and suffering. Pray on broken glass. Oh, but wait, isn't that also seeking spirituality for --- yourself... the very definition of selfishness?

 

Thank you Pastor Steve. We now know that Jesus does not speak for God because he is encouraging us to be selfish and seek spirtuality for ourselves. This is according to your reasoning.

 

Maybe you might want to reconsider your premise here?

[Open_Minded]

Take Jesus out of the equation and you lose the truth, life and way, and you are left wife a lie, death, and a fallse way. Take Jesus away and you are a son of the father of lies, the devil.

 

I think he meant, "Take Jesus out of the equation and you lose the truth, life and way, and you are left wife with a lie, death, and a false way."

 

Does anyone else think the whole wife, with thing is a Freudian slip

[Antlerman]

I think he meant, "Take Jesus out of the equation and you lose the truth, life and way, and you are left wife with a lie, death, and a false way."

 

Does anyone else think the whole wife, with thing is a Freudian slip

Good observation! I wonder if he's legalistic in his practice of Christianity, thinking he has to earn love through being a good obedient slave child, that all bad things that happen are because he failed somehow?

[Alice]

 

why is it the believers defend, get offended, and take personally someone else's not believing what they're taught to believe?

 

I've been thinking a bit about this.

 

I've been thinking about the 'power' of idea's. I'm currently trying to understand why some christians get so 'personal' about their beliefs. My deconversion is still quite raw at the moment and I can remember that it was 'personal'. Like a bereavement. I know some others have shared a similar feeling - I hope I was never as mean as some of the fundamentalist christians that do the sort of hit and run thing, but I think I DID used to take great offence when anyone said negative stuff about Jesus because - because I felt 'love' for him.

 

I now think this was a false representation of love within the context of the relationship prescribed by the theology I was part of, but this 'love' felt real at the time.

 

So, if I were to imagine I was newly in love - and I walked into a room where people were 'swapping insults' about my loved one - accusing them of lying or being evil or something ... well I might just get all personal and defensive.

 

I guess there is an argument for saying that if you have a 'secure' love - you wouldn't get all offended, but I guess you'd still want to defend them - their good name as it were?

 

OK - I've also been thinking about - if you really 'love' an idea - as in you feel it is a fantastic concept, or contains a truth you've been searching after, or an enlightenment of some sort - the fact that you feel love - will make it feel personal maybe ... and is that why the God idea became personified?

 

OK this is possibly just really obvious projection stuff that I'm talking about - and I'm really tired, long day - help me out someone please!

[Asimov]

Satan gets humans to murder other humans.

 

So? That's not murder.

[Antlerman]

I guess there is an argument for saying that if you have a 'secure' love - you wouldn't get all offended, but I guess you'd still want to defend them - their good name as it were?

 

OK - I've also been thinking about - if you really 'love' an idea - as in you feel it is a fantastic concept, or contains a truth you've been searching after, or an enlightenment of some sort - the fact that you feel love - will make it feel personal maybe ... and is that why the God idea became personified?

 

OK this is possibly just really obvious projection stuff that I'm talking about - and I'm really tired, long day - help me out someone please!

You make some good points about how people can be offended by some of the speach that comes out here, when you consider that many of these view Jesus as a personal love relationship. I guess whenever I hear someone talk about what it means to them sincerely, I will always make a point to be respectful to that person's feelings. If I decide I have to prove his beliefs wrong, then I may be crossing a line of respect that the fundamentalists do all the time.

 

The difficulty here is that this site is about people healing from the wounds they got from the Christian religion. Venting one's anger or showing disrespect is part of a process that a lot of people - myself included - need(ed) to go through as part of that healing process. I imagine how terrible some of the things that get said around here must sound out of context, like for no good reason we just hate Christ! Some will get offending because this is an open forum, and it's largely about "supporting ex-christians" through this process. It's been helpful to me in process of coming to terms with many of these issues.

 

But back to your original point: It may also be more than just a sense of a love relationship that people take things so personally. It's also because usually when someone has chosen to adopt an ideology, it is a personal investment of thought and emotion. Add to this they have chosen a mythology for emotional reasons, and the chances are they don't understand the seperation of reason that is necessary for this.

 

They take it personally because somehow they feel they're being challenged on their intellegence! The problem is it's not about intellegence, and if they were to just say, "it doesn't matter if it's factual or rational, that's not why I like it", then chances are they would not feel so offended? Your thoughts?

[Amethyst]

I've been thinking about the 'power' of idea's. I'm currently trying to understand why some christians get so 'personal' about their beliefs. My deconversion is still quite raw at the moment and I can remember that it was 'personal'. Like a bereavement. I know some others have shared a similar feeling - I hope I was never as mean as some of the fundamentalist christians that do the sort of hit and run thing, but I think I DID used to take great offence when anyone said negative stuff about Jesus because - because I felt 'love' for him.

 

I was going to type this earlier, but my boss walked into my cube. I think it's because Christianity is really self-worship, rather than god-worship. Christians, at least most, worship their idea of what god is like. Since there is no way to know whether there is a god, much less what that god is like, that is what Christianity becomes -- a cult of self.

 

This is why I think god is the ultimate Mary Sue. It's like when, on fanfiction.net or someplace, you politely try to tell the Mary Sue author that his/her main character is a Sue (a subconscious self-insert for wish fulfillment). Most of them throw a temper tantrum at this revelation, rather than learn how to write better. I think Christians act like that because they are substituting what they wish for as god. They are in love with the idea of what they want god to be like, because it's their ultimate wish, and so are insulted when someone doesn't love their idea, which ultimately represents them.

 

Does this make any sense?

[Open_Minded]

I think it's because Christianity is really self-worship, rather than god-worship. Christians, at least most, worship their idea of what god is like. Since there is no way to know whether there is a god, much less what that god is like, that is what Christianity becomes -- a cult of self.

 

This is why I think god is the ultimate Mary Sue. It's like when, on fanfiction.net or someplace, you politely try to tell the Mary Sue author that his/her main character is a Sue (a subconscious self-insert for wish fulfillment). Most of them throw a temper tantrum at this revelation, rather than learn how to write better. I think Christians act like that because they are substituting what they wish for as god. They are in love with the idea of what they want god to be like, because it's their ultimate wish, and so are insulted when someone doesn't love their idea, which ultimately represents them.

 

Does this make any sense?

 

Yes... actually it makes a lot of sense. It takes us right back around in circle to our discussion of subjective/objective experience of life. Remember Amethyst when you wrote that you likened religion to everyone fighting over the "color" of the sky?

 

Christians, at least most, worship their

idea

of what god is like. Since there is no way to know whether there is a god, much less what that god is like, that is what Christianity becomes -- a cult of self.

 

The only thing I would add is that it becomes a cult of subjective self.

 

I also believe people become so emotional over differences in points of view because they can not admit their viewpoint is subjective. And you are right, our subjective ideas are reflections of ourselves.

 

But this is a human trait, not limited to Christians. And on one level of another we can see it in other dimensions of life. So.... why - in the area of fundamentalist religion - does it sink to the level of destructive behavior towards other people, and even towards oneself?

[SkepticOfBible]

why - in the area of fundamentalist religion - does it sink to the level of destructive behavior towards other people, and even towards oneself?

Because he believe that their thoughts are authorised and approved by the "creator", any other thought by default becomes wrong and evil. And according to "God" wrong/evil cannot tolerated and must be destroyed

[Amethyst]

But this is a human trait, not limited to Christians. And on one level of another we can see it in other dimensions of life. So.... why - in the area of fundamentalist religion - does it sink to the level of destructive behavior towards other people, and even towards oneself?

 

When you have a leader, be it a pastor or anyone, who can turn somene's passion for an idea and twist it into hate for someone else who doesn't agree with that idea, it can lead to lots of violence. It's not necessarily the idea itself, but leaders who manipulate emotions in people to make them feel certain ways (for example, Jerry Falwell manipulating his followers to hate gays) or Hitler manipulating his people to hate Jews. Ideas are tools, just like anything else, and can be used for violence as well as peaceful purposes.

[Open_Minded]

Because he believe that their thoughts are authorised and approved by the "creator", any other thought by default becomes wrong and evil. And according to "God" wrong/evil cannot tolerated and must be destroyed

....

When you have a leader, be it a pastor or anyone, who can turn somene's passion for an idea and twist it into hate for someone else who doesn't agree with that idea, it can lead to lots of violence. It's not necessarily the idea itself, but leaders who manipulate emotions in people to make them feel certain ways (for example, Jerry Falwell manipulating his followers to hate gays) or Hitler manipulating his people to hate Jews. Ideas are tools, just like anything else, and can be used for violence as well as peaceful purposes.

 

Ah... sad but true

 

But unlike the last round of dark ages... we now have the internet

 

And there is hope in communication .. in not being able to hide the truth any longer. I really think that is part of the reason we are seeing such a rise in fundamentalism. Those who view the world in a black/white way are increasingly confronted with the reality that they must live with other human beings, people who are different from themselves. And this just scares the daylights out of them.

[NotBlinded]

Actually, nbbtb, if you are going to think of the tree of knowledge as metaphor, it makes more sense to go with a Daniel Quinn interpretation then that one.

 

i.e. man never really had their eyes opened by eating the fruit. They just thought they did.

 

What makes you think animals are happy and blissful?

Yes, that quote is exactly what I am referring to. The thought itself, the development of the ego, knowing right from wrong by being able to judge the difference and what effects it has on one's sense of self (ego).

 

When my dog is always consistently happy to see me, it makes me think that she is happy.

[Antlerman]

Ah... sad but true

 

But unlike the last round of dark ages... we now have the internet

 

And there is hope in communication .. in not being able to hide the truth any longer. I really think that is part of the reason we are seeing such a rise in fundamentalism. Those who view the world in a black/white way are increasingly confronted with the reality that they must live with other human beings, people who are different from themselves. And this just scares the daylights out of them.

I agree that communication is a power tool for the dissemination of knowledge, but there are also oceans of crap out there on the Internet. You see things be repeated that have long been discredited over and over again, like they are real knowledge. With this much information and a lack of education to learn how to discern things reasonably, you have an equally insidious tool for propaganda. The problem is it's usually the fringes that are the most vocal and undiscerning.

 

I agree also that the fringe groups are scared. Fundamentalism is by definition reactionary. With the saturation of culture through mass media, you are seeing a rise in reactionary groups such Islamic fundamentalism and far right and far left reactionary political and religious groups. I was just working in someone's office on a system and heard this unbelievable drivel spewing forth out the mouth of a radio talk show host that was politically, and morally offensive, lumping groups of people of various races and ethnicity together and labeling them as this and that. That shit is nothing by divisive and unhelpful to anyone! Yet people like that guy gobble it all up. It really scares me actually. Non-discerning people are being fed this kind of inciteful garbage. I don't say it lightly that it made me think we're one shake away from Nazism.

 

Sorry for the rant I just have a really awful taste in my mouth from that. Yeah for the Internet, but is anyone really looking for answers, or just reasons to hate?

[Open_Minded]

Sorry for the rant I just have a really awful taste in my mouth from that. Yeah for the Internet, but is anyone really looking for answers, or just reasons to hate?

Don't apologize Antlerman... we are living in difficult times right now... so much anger and hatred...

 

I wish I could remember where I heard this, but somewhere I read that humanity does not mature in a straight line, our race matures in a spiraling upward motion. So we will see history repeat itself, but will not sink to the levels of past generations. I hope this is true... but I also remember what I've heard my pastor say when he is frustrated with the fundamentalism so prevelant right now, "If humanity really wants to, we are quite capable of bringing on Armageddon

 

In the end though... something deep inside of me feels hopeful and upbeat about humanity in general

[Antlerman]

I also believe people become so emotional over differences in points of view because they can not admit their viewpoint is subjective. And you are right, our subjective ideas are reflections of ourselves.

 

But this is a human trait, not limited to Christians. And on one level of another we can see it in other dimensions of life. So.... why - in the area of fundamentalist religion - does it sink to the level of destructive behavior towards other people, and even towards oneself?

I'm wanting to continue this discussion with you on this question of subjectivity you have been addressing, as I have a little more freedom of time for thought to this. Originally you were pointing out to me what seems to me to be saying that atheism and belief in a god are equally subjectively concluded. Is that accurate to what you are saying?

 

At the outset I have been getting red flags popping up about you bringing up subjectivity in this context. I just need you to clarify what you are trying to say? How far does subjectivity affect everything we know? Can we know anything reasonably well, or are we stuck at the point of college freshman arguments of not really knowing what color is what color, etc? Also how you feel subjectivity affects what modern science brings to the table in regards to knowledge?

 

My postion I still hold is that atheism is a compleltely different than faith in a god. Last questions: Do you believe that atheism is a belief, or a religion?

 

P.S. As I said, I haven't forgotten... It may just turn out to be like a chess game played out over a year

 

P.P.S. I'm really not too much anti-religion at this time in my life, but 'am definitely anti-fundamentalist.