Leaving Jesus is not Leaving God!

[Amethyst]

Other scientists disagree with this experiment as being valid to proving anything about self awareness.

 

Which is why science is great -- you can disagree with it and prove something false that was thought to be true before. But IMHO, there really isn't enough evidence to say that animals are intelligent. Dolphins, maybe. Some chimpanzees, maybe. Dogs and cats? Who knows?

 

Survival is a trait of instinct, just as it is in us. But these animals, outside primates, are also able to reason and adapt, to learn how to use tools, etc. I think what you're trying to get it is that they can't self-reflect philosophically, and that may well be. That is definitely a higher brain function that they are likely not wired for. I believe there is a consciousness in all of them, but it is not the level of reasoning that we take things to!

 

Not necessarily philosophical reflection, but being aware of who they are and how they are different from creatures around them like we do.

 

Also, I don't think they are wired for complex problem-solving as we are.

 

From Wikipedia:

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self_awareness

 

Self-awareness is the ability to perceive one's own existence, including one's own traits, feelings and behaviours. In an epistemological sense, self-awareness is a personal understanding of the very core of one's own identity. It is the basis for many other human traits, such as accountability and consciousness, and as such is often the subject of debate among philosophers. Self-awareness can be perceived as a trait that people possess to varying degrees beyond the most basic sentience that defines human awareness. This trait is one that is normally taken for granted, resulting in a general ignorance of one's self that manifests as odd contradictory behavior. This ignorance of one's own self is viewed in existentialism and Zen Buddhism as the source of much human suffering, as noted by the famous saying from Zen Buddhism "we are each the source of our own suffering."

[Mythra]

It has instincts, sure, but instincts are not the same as intelligence. I take it you are a vegan then?

 

 

 

 

 

Thanks, Amethyst. You made my morning. I'm as far from a vegan as is humanly possible.

 

I just know intelligence when I see it. And I used to own two of these:

 

 

 

 

 

[Amethyst]

Thanks, Amethyst. You made my morning. I'm as far from a vegan as is humanly possible.

 

The only reason I said that is because normally people who are very concerned about animals feeling pain tend to be vegetarian or vegan. But I'm glad I made you laugh.

 

I just think it's not conclusive whether animals have intelligence or not.

[MQTA]

 

Which is why science is great -- you can disagree with it and prove something false that was thought to be true before. But IMHO, there really isn't enough evidence to say that animals are intelligent. Dolphins, maybe. Some chimpanzees, maybe. Dogs and cats? Who knows?

 

What's even better is, you can talk about science and not take it personally. You believe in the big bang? Fine, doesn't change who you are; you don't believe in the big bang? Fine, doesn't change who you are. But the alternatives... why is it the believers defend, get offended, and take personally someone else's not believing what they're taught to believe? Like I don't believe what I don't believe just to piss "YOU" off? I disbelieved WAY before the internet was even around, it ain't personal. If you believe it, FINE. Just don't try to threaten me into believing it, too. It's no reflection on you, unless you subconsciously know it's suspect or not all you'd like it to be, so you got something to prove to the world. I don't understand their attitude. Especially with the pretense that they're the loving and peaceful ones, and apparently they think anyone else is NOT. They surely don't show it by example.

 

Bah.

[Antlerman]

Other scientists disagree with this experiment as being valid to proving anything about self awareness.

 

Which is why science is great -- you can disagree with it and prove something false that was thought to be true before. But IMHO, there really isn't enough evidence to say that animals are intelligent. Dolphins, maybe. Some chimpanzees, maybe. Dogs and cats? Who knows?

 

Also, I don't think they are wired for complex problem-solving as we are.

 

Parrots perform complex problem solving, as do ravens. This is a clear sign of higher intelligence. Monkeys, find a long stick, then push it into a termite mound and pull out live termites and eat them. This is also a sign of intelligent, rational problem solving by utitlizing tools. Octopus also have incredible intelligence and highly advanced brains, as do many other animals in the animal kingdom.

 

The whole discussion seems to be getting hung up on definitions. I understand what you are trying to say, and I take that in the sense as described in your Wiki quote below:

 

From Wikipedia:

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self_awareness

 

In an epistemological sense, self-awareness is a personal understanding of the very core of one's own identity. It is the basis for many other human traits, such as accountability and consciousness, and as such is often the subject of debate among philosophers.

In this sense, the phiolosphical sense in the study of Epistomolgy, a bunny rabbitt is not "self aware."

 

Although... I have seen footage of a gang of chimps banding together to hunt down, corner, then murder as a group one of their own band (which ironically was something preachers used to say showed that human beings were unique, because only we were capable of murder). This is a clear sign of intelligence of a much higher order. I could even stretch out a bit to possibly say it shows they have a sense of ethics and morality, since it appears they organized themselves together with the single intent to hunt down and put to death this member of the group for some agreed upon violation of some code of conduct. This goes way beyond just one chimp getting into a fight with another and killing him! This is an incredibly provocative notion, wouldn't you say?

 

So then, if chimps are Epistimologically Self Aware, do they also need to recieve Jesus as their personal savior? Ponder that!

[NotBlinded]

So, again in regard to our thread involving God and subjective/objective processing of possibilities.

 

We know that the highest minds in science have reached a point where they are now having to grasp concepts so abstract that the human cannot "supply an object from our imagination that would correspond to it".

 

So.. for purposes of discussing the possibility of a God, as humans one thing we can do is release every conceptualization of God we've ever been given and start from scratch, so-to-speak.

 

And if we were to start from scratch...with the concrete knowns of the universe as we can grasp it today... what would we look for? What are the basics that must exist within and through something for it to warrant a title such as "God"?

 

Over the years I've come to a few conclusions.... they follow: Whatever it is it would have to be - and these are subjective conclusions - I recognize that:

 

1. Some sort of energy

2. Display self-awareness - otherwise we would just call it energy.

3. The energy would have to pervade the entire universe - be the very "stuff" out of which the universe flows and through which the universe is "carried" for lack of a better word. It would have to be the "building block of the universe" so to speak.

4. The energy would have to be such that it brings "order" out of "chaos" for lack of better language.

 

Since we are talking about something so far beyond humanity's ability to grasp.... these are just offerings. Feel free to add more possibilities. What would you add to the list of "basics that must exist within and through something for it to warrant a title such as 'God'"?

 

Your response can be completely subjective, it just needs to be logically subjective within the current knowns of our universe today. Don't worry about whether your mind can conceptualize the possibility - as mentioned above... "The realization that not everything that is so in the world can be grasped by the human imagination is tremendously liberating". It is here that wonder enters the picture

I really, really like the way you think Open_Minded!

 

You have said it better than I could. I can't think of a thing I could say that would add to what you have written.

[Open_Minded]

I really, really like the way you think Open_Minded!

 

You have said it better than I could. I can't think of a thing I could say that would add to what you have written.

 

 

Thanks, Notblinded

 

But, I really am interested in what others have to say about all this. We can discuss whether animals are self-aware - or not - until the end of time. See, the thing is we will never really know for sure. Everytime a human analyses anything they are limited by their own subjective limitations - their own perceptions.

 

To ask it simply - how much of the human experience is subjective and how much is actual objective fact?

 

Start with color.... how do you know that whenever anyone is looking at the color "blue" they are seeing the same thing you are seeing?

[Antlerman]

 

But, I really am interested in what others have to say about all this. We can discuss whether animals are self-aware - or not - until the end of time. See, the thing is we will never really know for sure.

I haven't forgotten about you. I just want to be able to devote a little more time to it. Talking about sending missionaries to preach Jesus to sinner chimps is an easy topic to talk about off the top of my head. I'm still here though. Give me some time.

[NotBlinded]

Not necessarily philosophical reflection, but being aware of who they are and how they are different from creatures around them like we do.

I believe mankind was once in this animal form, but through evolution we became aware of who we were and how others differed from ourselves. This put people living with duality. We knew good from bad, hence the metaphorical tree of good and evil. Animals don't have this dual nature, they are in a pre-thought state about the existence of good and evil. They are one with nature; we have set ourselves against it. With this knowledge of good and evil, we view others as good or bad also. This knowledge gave us great responsibility (being like gods) that has so far proven to be fatal. If we can't handle the responsibility, we will die out and something else will take the higher form of consciousness. Consciousness doesn't care what form it takes.

 

There are many profound truths in the bible if taken philosophically.

 

I like to put (again) some words of Ernest Holmes:

 

"When Spirit manifests in the purely mechanical and material world we say that It is Unconscious Life; when It manifests in the animal world we say that It is manifesting in a state of simple consciousness; and when It manifests in and through man we say that It is in a Self-Conscious State. As this Self-Conscious state of man's mentality reaches a larger world of realization and comprehends something of Its Unity with the Whole, we say that It is in a Cosmic State. We now know of four different levels upon which Spirit manifests:--Unconscious State, Simple-Consciousness, Self-Consciousness and Cosmic-Consciousness. All of these are but different ways through which the One Power operates. Life, then, is that quality of Being, running through all, which enables anything to be what It is."

 

This power can manifest any way it chooses, if it couldn't, it would be limited.

[Amethyst]

Start with color.... how do you know that whenever anyone is looking at the color "blue" they are seeing the same thing you are seeing?

 

We can't. There is such a thing as color blindness.

 

That is why I liken religion to the analogy, what if everyone said that the sky was green? What if you looked up and saw it as blue, but everyone around you saw it as green, so you believed them?

 

Then one day, you read a news article, or perhaps a scientific journal or magazine, that said scientists had evidence that the sky was, in fact, blue. But everyone around you said that the scientists were evil and brainwashed and the spawn of satan or posessed by devils, so you continued to believe that the sky was actually green.

 

Then you saw another magazine story that said that some people in other countries saw the sky as red, or yellow, plaid, or purple with pink polka-dots. Eventually you got around to questioning, why should they be threatened with death or eternal torture for seeing the sky differently? Then you read more articles and books, and decided for yourself that the sky was probably blue.

[Open_Minded]

Start with color.... how do you know that whenever anyone is looking at the color "blue" they are seeing the same thing you are seeing?

 

We can't. There is such a thing as color blindness.

 

That is why I liken religion to the analogy, what if everyone said that the sky was green? What if you looked up and saw it as blue, but everyone around you saw it as green, so you believed them?

 

Then one day, you read a news article, or perhaps a scientific journal or magazine, that said scientists had evidence that the sky was, in fact, blue. But everyone around you said that the scientists were evil and brainwashed and the spawn of satan or posessed by devils, so you continued to believe that the sky was actually green.

 

Then you saw another magazine story that said that some people in other countries saw the sky as red, or yellow, plaid, or purple with pink polka-dots. Eventually you got around to questioning, why should they be threatened with death or eternal torture for seeing the sky differently? Then you read more articles and books, and decided for yourself that the sky was probably blue.

 

And that Amethyst is my whole point... if humans can not even come to terms over a color... then how much of our life is subjective? 50%, 60%, 90% how about 100%?

 

In other words, in concrete ways of knowing, what the fuck do we really know?

 

I'm not trying to be sarcastic here, I'm really not. But do you see - if so much of our experience is subjective just how complex any discussion is if it is based on the limitations of pure and concrete rationality?

 

At some level humans have the capacity to perceive things beyond the scope of pure rational thinking and still "know" still be aware.

 

Do you know what I mean?

[NotBlinded]

At some level humans have the capacity to perceive things beyond the scope of pure rational thinking and still "know" still be aware.

That is where the objective mind resides.

[Antlerman]

I believe mankind was once in this animal form, but through evolution we became aware of who we were and how others differed from ourselves. This put people living with duality. We knew good from bad, hence the metaphorical tree of good and evil. Animals don't have this dual nature, they are in a pre-thought state about the existence of good and evil. They are one with nature; we have set ourselves against it. With this knowledge of good and evil, we view others as good or bad also. This knowledge gave us great responsibility (being like gods) that has so far proven to be fatal. If we can't handle the responsibility, we will die out and something else will take the higher form of consciousness. Consciousness doesn't care what form it takes.

Now it's my turn to return the compliment: Wonderfully said!

 

Do you think that some people's desire, my own included, in finding such power and beauty in the natural, is a way to escape this duality of our consiousness, this knoweldge of good and evil, and get back to simply living (of course without the inherent dangers that go with survival in the wild)? Just I thought that passed through my mind as I read this.

[NotBlinded]

Now it's my turn to return the compliment: Wonderfully said!

 

Do you think that some people's desire, my own included, in finding such power and beauty in the natural, is a way to escape this duality of our consiousness, this knoweldge of good and evil, and get back to simply living (of course without the inherent dangers that go with survival in the wild)? Just I thought that passed through my mind as I read this.

Thank you

 

I think what we desire the most is to get back to a state of wholeness where duality doesn't exist...and yes, I see nature that way also. Wouldn't it be great for a self-aware consciousness to live wholly after all the experiences it had? We can't go back, or the awareness of the wholeness wouldn't be recognized. We must go forward to go back. : We would still be aware of duality, but we would rise above it.

[Amethyst]

Do you think that some people's desire, my own included, in finding such power and beauty in the natural, is a way to escape this duality of our consiousness, this knoweldge of good and evil, and get back to simply living (of course without the inherent dangers that go with survival in the wild)?

 

I think it's a rebellion of sorts against how out of balance the world has become. So many people are caught up with material things and superficiality. That's why they seek religion, to provide confirmation that the world is out of balance, and to feel like they can do something about it (i.e. praying, going to church, donating money to church, etc.). But it is misguided, IMHO.

 

I think what we desire the most is to get back to a state of wholeness where duality doesn't exist...and yes, I see nature that way also. Wouldn't it be great for a self-aware consciousness to live wholly after all the experiences it had? We can't go back, or the awareness of the wholeness wouldn't be recognized. We must go forward to go back. : smile.gif We would still be aware of duality, but we would rise above it.

 

Not necessarily duality, but the excessiveness of Western culture, IMHO. That's what people are seeking in religion, a sort of refuge from the world. But unfortunately, religions take advantage of people's desires for that, and manipulate them emotionally and take all their money and their time away, which could be better spent on charity.

[NotBlinded]

Not necessarily duality, but the excessiveness of Western culture, IMHO. That's what people are seeking in religion, a sort of refuge from the world. But unfortunately, religions take advantage of people's desires for that, and manipulate them emotionally and take all their money and their time away, which could be better spent on charity.

I agree...they do take advantage of people.

 

Duality is ever present in Western culture in such ways: We feel sorry for ourselves, we judge ourselves and others based on our view of ourselves, we hate ourselves and others based on this same view of ourselves. Eckhart Tolle puts it like this, "The split caused by self-reflective consiousness...". He goes on to say that this split is healed and the curse removed when one is enlightened. I understand it to mean that once one can get rid of this relationship with the self, there would be no judging and condeming others. Whole with everything.

[Amethyst]

Duality is ever present in Western culture in such ways: We feel sorry for ourselves, we judge ourselves and others based on our view of ourselves, we hate ourselves and others based on this same view of ourselves. Eckhart Tolle puts it like this, "The split caused by self-reflective consiousness...". He goes on to say that this split is healed and the curse removed when one is enlightened. I understand it to mean that once one can get rid of this relationship with the self, there would be no judging and condeming others. Whole with everything.

 

Oh, I thought you mean the whole good/evil, black/white thing. Yes, I understand the whole judgmental thing all too well. It's a cycle that can be hard to stop. I had an over-critical mother growing up, and thus have a tendency to be hard on myself, and sometimes other people. Religion did not help any.

 

It stems from having low self-esteem so that you become perfectionistic, but perfectionistic with a focus. For me, it's my physical appearance and my writing. For others, it might be cleanliness. My mother was perfectionistic with her cleaning.

 

I give myself a mental kick in the rear end when I notice that I am being too hard on myself or someone else, but it is a very hard habit to break, especially if you learn it early like I did.

[NotBlinded]

Duality is ever present in Western culture in such ways: We feel sorry for ourselves, we judge ourselves and others based on our view of ourselves, we hate ourselves and others based on this same view of ourselves. Eckhart Tolle puts it like this, "The split caused by self-reflective consiousness...". He goes on to say that this split is healed and the curse removed when one is enlightened. I understand it to mean that once one can get rid of this relationship with the self, there would be no judging and condeming others. Whole with everything.

 

Oh, I thought you mean the whole good/evil, black/white thing. Yes, I understand the whole judgmental thing all too well. It's a cycle that can be hard to stop. I had an over-critical mother growing up, and thus have a tendency to be hard on myself, and sometimes other people. Religion did not help any.

 

It stems from having low self-esteem so that you become perfectionistic, but perfectionistic with a focus. For me, it's my physical appearance and my writing. For others, it might be cleanliness. My mother was perfectionistic with her cleaning.

 

I give myself a mental kick in the rear end when I notice that I am being too hard on myself or someone else, but it is a very hard habit to break, especially if you learn it early like I did.

Yes, I can relate to what you are saying and it is very hard to stop it. But, what would be left in the world if we didn't judge others based on this relationship to ourselves?

 

What really slapped me in the face is the realization that religion was not meant to be what it is. I think all the judging and hatred portrayed in these religions were meant to be taken as a message of what happens to all of us when we allow our egos (self-reflective self) to rule. The bible is very prophetic in this manner, because look at what did happen when egos got in the way of the message. It was construed in such a way that bad had no choice but to happen. It's like a self-fulfilled prophecy. God's not doing it.

[Amethyst]

But, what would be left in the world if we didn't judge others based on this relationship to ourselves?

 

Happiness. Peace. People actually getting along with each other. People NOT buying unnecessary products to make themselves beautiful or stronger or to keep up with the Joneses to feel good about themselves, because buying stuff provides a false sense of self-esteem.

 

When I talk about judging, I talk about what happens when someone looks at a woman who is average size and thinks "OMG THEY ARE SO HORRIBLY FAT, THEY NEED TO STARVE THEMSELVES, THEY MUST BE SO LAZY AND PIG OUT ALL THE TIME!!!!" when in reality, that person may just have lost 10 pounds on a diet, or they look at some guy in their college class who failed an exam and think "OMG THEY ARE SO STUPID!!!1!" when they may have an extra job to pay the bills and couldn't study because they had to work. It is that kind of judging that I am talking about, that kind of critical thought that comes when you are pretty much brought up to hate yourself.

 

That is the kind of judging that needs to stop. But our culture doesn't encourage it. Consumerism encourages people to feel bad about themselves so they buy stuff they don't really need, and it's a never-ending cycle. It's not going to change unless the culture changes.

[NotBlinded]

But, what would be left in the world if we didn't judge others based on this relationship to ourselves?

 

Happiness. Peace. People actually getting along with each other. People NOT buying unnecessary products to make themselves beautiful or stronger or to keep up with the Joneses to feel good about themselves, because buying stuff provides a false sense of self-esteem.

 

When I talk about judging, I talk about what happens when someone looks at a woman who is average size and thinks "OMG THEY ARE SO HORRIBLY FAT, THEY NEED TO STARVE THEMSELVES, THEY MUST BE SO LAZY AND PIG OUT ALL THE TIME!!!!" when in reality, that person may just have lost 10 pounds on a diet, or they look at some guy in their college class who failed an exam and think "OMG THEY ARE SO STUPID!!!1!" when they may have an extra job to pay the bills and couldn't study because they had to work. It is that kind of judging that I am talking about, that kind of critical thought that comes when you are pretty much brought up to hate yourself.

 

That is the kind of judging that needs to stop. But our culture doesn't encourage it. Consumerism encourages people to feel bad about themselves so they buy stuff they don't really need, and it's a never-ending cycle. It's not going to change unless the culture changes.

Yes, wonderfully said!

[Guest PastorSteve]

"Leaving Jesus was not leaving God"

 

Again we come down to reality that a man is asking us to believe in his truth. 100 men in a line all have their flavors of truth, each making them feel better. This "spirituality" is at its core, selfishness. Selfishness cannot be of God. Selfishness is the very core of most of the brutal evil and pain that takes place in our world. Selfishness, or the will to be "little gods" is the story of the first chapters of Genesis. Trust God, or seek your own path. It was the first lie...the big lie. And will forever be the big lie. Life was not meant to be lived and processed apart from God.

 

Satan was the father of lies, and a murderer. Jesus is the Way, Truth and Life.

 

Satan = lies, death, the false way

Jesus = truth, life, the way

 

This is THE story of the Bible.

 

1 John 3:8?

Genesis 2 and 3?

 

Take Jesus out of the equation and you lose the truth, life and way, and you are left wife a lie, death, and a fallse way. Take Jesus away and you are a son of the father of lies, the devil.

[NotBlinded]

Life was not meant to be lived and processed apart from God.

Sure it was or it wouldn't be. How can one recognize the beauty and wonder without having experienced the opposite. If we didn't eat from the metaphoric tree of knowledge, we would still be as the animals. Happy and blissful.

[Cerise]

Actually, nbbtb, if you are going to think of the tree of knowledge as metaphor, it makes more sense to go with a Daniel Quinn interpretation then that one.

 

i.e. man never really had their eyes opened by eating the fruit. They just thought they did.

 

What makes you think animals are happy and blissful?

[Amethyst]

Take Jesus out of the equation and you lose the truth, life and way, and you are left wife a lie, death, and a fallse way. Take Jesus away and you are a son of the father of lies, the devil.

 

Bullshit. Prove your claims with scientific evidence, not church propagada. Prove that Jesus existed. I would suggest you read through all of the posts in this forum. Nobody has yet been able to prove it. Also, learn how to spell. False has one l in it.

 

I am warning you, I am not in the mood for balogne that cannot be proven.

[Open_Minded]

"Leaving Jesus was not leaving God"

 

Again we come down to reality that a man is asking us to believe in his truth. 100 men in a line all have their flavors of truth, each making them feel better.

 

Ok so... in the year 325 bishops descend on Nicaea to determine (among many other things) which of the 100s of gospels floating around at that time would be canonized. In addition these bishops (no women, just men selected and invited by the political powers-that-be) were to determine the nature of Jesus and His relationship to God.

 

When the meeting was over - among other things - only four (out of hundreds of gospels) made it into canonized scripture. From that point on, politically it was very dangerous to own a non-canonized gospel. In addition these men (men acting at the request of the political powers-that-be) despense a particular "flavor of truth" in the form of the Nicene Creed. Is not the Council of Nicaea men with "their flavors of truth"?

 

Selfishness cannot be of God. Selfishness is the very core of most of the brutal evil and pain that takes place in our world. Selfishness, or the will to be "little gods" is the story of the first chapters of Genesis. Trust God, or seek your own path. It was the first lie...the big lie. And will forever be the big lie.

 

I have to agree with you there....

 

1. George Bush, Oil Industry, Iraq War "Selfishness is the very core of most of the brutal evil and pain that takes place in our world", I'm tracking with you here... Pastor Steve

 

2. George Bush... "The will to be 'little god'".... yep you are right on target.

 

3. Christian right ...."We're right (mind you 2/3 of the world's population is NOT Christian) and everyone else is wrong - oh - and they'll fry in hell." again men setting themselves up as "little god".... And you are right again.

 

Now... if you will read the entire thread you will see that much of the thread was a discussion about the subjectivity of the human experience.

 

Whatever else you feel about Christians (and non-Christians) at least have the objectivity to recognize that fundamentalist Christians are not the only humans peddling their flavor of the truth, not only peddling it, but willing to kill people over it. Sit down in a room sometime with a fundamentalist, literalist Muslim and watch him use the same arguments you use to prove your "flavor of truth". He may use a different scripture, but he'll pound on it just as hard as you pound on yours. He'll wave it in the air, he'll open it up recite verse after verse to prove to you he has the REAL truth, just the same way you do

 

When fundamentalists from all religions can come to terms with the reality that their version of the truth is just as subjective as their neighbor's version of the truth then, and only then, will there be peace. Then and only then will the "little gods" among us die.