Leaving Jesus is not Leaving God!

[Fweethawt]

Fweethawt.... do you remember the first post on this page when you start to tease me about being "chruchy"?

I never said, "chruchy". That's just sounds nasty.

 

You probably meant, "churchy".

 

I used the term "born-again" so that you would be able to relate better to the experience that I, and probably a lot of others around here, went through during their deconversion period.

 

(notblindedbytheblight @ Mar 9 2006, 04:12 PM)In the end the contemplative suffers the anguish of realizing that he no longer knows what God is.

NotBlinded -- I would wish for every Christian that s/he would anguish over realizing that "he no longer knows what God is."

 

The problem is that when people come to this pivotal point on their spiritual journey they do one of two things. They retreat - or they force forward to find the answers.

 

I think that is why I enjoy this board so much, when folks here reached that pivotal point on their journey - they pushed forward to find answers.

 

What I find fascinating is that you and I from such different perspectives, can find commonalities in that poem. Our experiences are obviously similar - and yet we arrive at different solutions. I suppose it goes to our lives before the experience, no....

It's not so fascinating.

 

You get to go to Heaven while all of us burn in Hell, remember?

 

It all has to do with who has The Truth™ and who is being deceived. That's all.

[Open_Minded]

Fweethawt.... do you remember the first post on this page when you start to tease me about being "chruchy"?

I never said, "chruchy". That's just sounds nasty.

 

You probably meant, "churchy".

 

You do know how to make someone laugh. Now see ... I would have politely ignored the mispelling.....

 

But... hey ... the world always needs laughter.

 

I used the term "born-again" so that you would be able to relate better to the experience that I, and probably a lot of others around here, went through during their deconversion period.

 

Yes ... I've picked up on this before .... I've noticed (for instance) that sometimes people will change their user name as they go through the deconversion process ... a de-baptism of sorts???

 

It's not so fascinating.

 

You get to go to Heaven while all of us burn in Hell, remember?

 

It all has to do with who has The Truth™ and who is being deceived. That's all.

 

Oh .. Fwee ... we'll be roasting together. I'm a heretic, remember....

 

The good news is ... if this board is a sample selection of the souls I'll be frying with ... then I'm in good company.

[Fweethawt]

The good news is ... if this board is a sample selection of the souls I'll be frying with ... then I'm in good company.

If you could smell me at the end of a hot day, let alone a hot millenia, you'd probably change your mind really quick.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

THAT was a joke.

I am clean.

I am always clean.

And I never stink, even at the end of a hot day.

 

[Open_Minded]

I know "death" to one part of ourselves and a rebirth to a new is very important and I don't mean to deminish it!

 

However, I'm wondering about the comment that we both made about accepting our false selves. To me, it would be less embaracing, less anxiety, and less emotion to just crucify my false self and get it over and done with. As a indiviudal with an anxeity disorder and PTSD, killing off parts of myself takes less courage then living with my original parts. There's something rich about trying new things and learning from mistakes or what didn't work in a particular situation. Originality, at least to me, equals vulnerablity. Realizing this has been healing to me allowing me to experience myself and my connections to others in my life more positively and with less anxeity.

 

 

Learning to accept my false self and not crucify it takes more courage. This doesn't really make sense because our true selves would be more nurturing. Maybe I have more then one false self.

 

Ha, this is all subject too. Go figure! (BTW, I'm on a MAC that won't allow me to use faces or I'd be using them.)

 

I hope I'm making sense. What are your thoughts on this? Antlerman creates original art, right? Can you relate, Antlerman?

 

Hmmm ... What are my thoughts on this....

 

Well your statement, "To me, it would be less embaracing, less anxiety, and less emotion to just crucify my false self and get it over and done with" certainly has merit to it. I know there have been many times that I too, have wanted to "crucify my false self and get it over with".

 

If you're anything like me, you've probably already crucified it, buried the damn thing for 3 (or more) days - only to have it rise again - roll back the stones you've put over its grave to seal it in and have it re-enter your life.

 

Seriously - Seabiscuit - I think this is what the history of extreme asceticism teaches us. It's not so easy to rid ourselves of the wild and untamed aspects. Although - I can say if we intentionally work at recognizing these parts - things do get better.

 

Years ago, I learned about a meditative discipline called the "watcher". Basically what this is, is the objective - detached part of yourself. The part of yourself that is able to step outside a situation and just be aware (without judgment) of your thoughts, emotions and actions. Over the years I have learned how to allow "the watcher" more space to observe.

 

In fact - one way I do this is to use the Lenten season to intentionally work at letting go of some aspect of my false self (at least for a little while). Last year I worked at letting go of sarcasim. Now I am a mother of three, so this was a hard thing to do. - It didn't go so well. - This year I am working on letting go of knee jerk reactions (it's going better than letting go of sarcasim.)

The point is - in order to let go of these things for even a little while - I have to be aware of the behavior. This is where the "watcher" comes in. If one nourishes this aspect of their being - the ability to step back and simply observe (without judgment) what one is feeling, thinking and acting out - over time the act of observing allows one to "catch" negative behavior sooner.

 

I do understand what you are saying, Seabiscuit. It is very hard sometimes to accept ourselves (our whole selves). But, it sounds as if you have done much healing in your life - I'm sure you've already become aware that it is healthier to accept our whole selves. Repression and denial lead to more pain and anxiety.

 

The dying and rising again are not things that we can issue in - so to speak. They are a natural part of the human journey. In the long term they are healthy. The process can be managed somewhat once one finds oneself in it. We can prepare ourselves for it's eventuality. But like any other aspect of maturation - we prepare and accept that the maturation process takes time and happens on it's own schedule - not ours. Patience with that reality is most often the hardest part.

[NotBlinded]

I found explanations of this type of experience in both the east and the west ... but never anything like this. I am struck ... before I knew on an academic level that I was not alone. But ...now ... now I know that someone else has experienced this dynamic.

Much of that piece reads like a poetic description of a lot of what I felt during my final stages of deconversion.

 

Shit! I'd be willing to bet that many people here could relate to that writing.

 

 

U 2 R 2 - the mouse + 'E'

 

thanks Fweethawt ... it took me a second to get the joke, and then I had a good laugh.

NBBTB will get a kick out of it once she figures it out, too.

Yes...it is very witty (from the Master of Wit!). Cheesy!

 

 

Antlerman ... where did you find this poem? It struck me to the core. I printed it off and read it alone .... after this period in my life I searched and searched. I found explanations of this type of experience in both the east and the west ... but never anything like this. I am struck ... before I knew on an academic level that I was not alone. But ...now ... now I know that someone else has experienced this dynamic.

 

Thank you - from the depths of my soul - I thank you....

I am deeply pleased that this was meaningful for you. I was hopeful it would be. This is why music, art, and poetry appear far more powerful tools to communicate a knowledge that surpasses common language. We hear the sounds and recognize the words and patterns, yet we understand with the heart what words cannot say.

Antlerman, that poem is perfect! It explains an awakening through suffering that would be completely lost if one took it literally. I wonder if literalists would be able to compare this to the crucifixion and understand the importance of signs and symbols in myth? One could hope!

[Antlerman]

As a small perfectionistic child and daughter of an artist, I tore up many of the things I created. The embarrassment of my own originality was too much to live with so I destroyed it. Who I have been and am as a original human can bring me embarrassment too.

 

I know "death" to one part of ourselves and a rebirth to a new is very important and I don't mean to deminish it!

 

However, I'm wondering about the comment that we both made about accepting our false selves. To me, it would be less embaracing, less anxiety, and less emotion to just crucify my false self and get it over and done with. As a indiviudal with an anxeity disorder and PTSD, killing off parts of myself takes less courage then living with my original parts. There's something rich about trying new things and learning from mistakes or what didn't work in a particular situation. Originality, at least to me, equals vulnerablity. Realizing this has been healing to me allowing me to experience myself and my connections to others in my life more positively and with less anxeity.

 

 

Learning to accept my false self and not crucify it takes more courage. This doesn't really make sense because our true selves would be more nurturing. Maybe I have more then one false self.

 

Ha, this is all subject too. Go figure! (BTW, I'm on a MAC that won't allow me to use faces or I'd be using them.)

 

I hope I'm making sense. What are your thoughts on this? Antlerman creates original art, right? Can you relate, Antlerman?

I'm trying to sort out a little what you mean in your use of false self? The false self is what we project to others as an idealized sense of who we think we should be. We protect our true selves this way. This is not always a bad thing to do, because to be 100% exposed 100% of the time to 100% of everyone, may not be altogether wise?

 

This idealized self is a front or a facade which we may even use to try to shelter ourselves from ourselves. In the worst case scenario, the true self is actually supplanted by the false self, to which the individual no longer has any sense of who there are, but rather see themselves in fractured splinters reflected off other peoples response to them, as they project some desired image to others. They poke and prod away at others in a futile search to see who is in the reflection looking back at them. That to me is the deepest hell.

 

As far as the role of art for me, I've never thought about it this way but it is my way to expose my true self - my soul, first to me as it flows from within me, then to the next level of sharing my true self with others. In the act of doing this, at first can be a sense of discomfort or even terror, but the response is more often then not for me, a sharing of others true selves as they respond with heart felt candor. My music has been for me a way to personally expose my soul to the world, and to share in the souls of others. This is also true for my appreciation of others art alongside someone else. There is a commonality of response, though diverse, it is nevertheless an expression of their heart. In this sense art, music, poetry, bring peoples true selves out and exposed to one another. In doing this we build a greater sense of who we are, and of community. IMO, art is the language that human words are incapable of expressing the concepts of the spirit.

 

Is that of any help?

 

P.S. I apologize for my lack of postings lately. I am still here though...

[NotBlinded]

 

Hmmm ... What are my thoughts on this....

 

Well your statement, "To me, it would be less embaracing, less anxiety, and less emotion to just crucify my false self and get it over and done with" certainly has merit to it. I know there have been many times that I too, have wanted to "crucify my false self and get it over with".

 

If you're anything like me, you've probably already crucified it, buried the damn thing for 3 (or more) days - only to have it rise again - roll back the stones you've put over its grave to seal it in and have it re-enter your life.

 

Seriously - Seabiscuit - I think this is what the history of extreme asceticism teaches us. It's not so easy to rid ourselves of the wild and untamed aspects. Although - I can say if we intentionally work at recognizing these parts - things do get better.

 

Years ago, I learned about a meditative discipline called the "watcher". Basically what this is, is the objective - detached part of yourself. The part of yourself that is able to step outside a situation and just be aware (without judgment) of your thoughts, emotions and actions. Over the years I have learned how to allow "the watcher" more space to observe.

 

In fact - one way I do this is to use the Lenten season to intentionally work at letting go of some aspect of my false self (at least for a little while). Last year I worked at letting go of sarcasim. Now I am a mother of three, so this was a hard thing to do. - It didn't go so well. - This year I am working on letting go of knee jerk reactions (it's going better than letting go of sarcasim.)

The point is - in order to let go of these things for even a little while - I have to be aware of the behavior. This is where the "watcher" comes in. If one nourishes this aspect of their being - the ability to step back and simply observe (without judgment) what one is feeling, thinking and acting out - over time the act of observing allows one to "catch" negative behavior sooner.

O_M, you are continuously echoing my understandings. It's getting a little creepy! I'm just kidding! I love it.

 

I understand this watcher you speak of. This is bringing full awareness to what we are reacting to and when this is done, the ego/false self can't survive just like the darkness disappears when a light is turned on. If we aren't aware of our reactions, the ego takes over and pushes us into the passenger seat and we are along for the ride.

 

It's not trying to stop it or wish for it to stop happening, because that is a desire. We would just replace one form of ego with another. The only way to stop it is to give it our full, unjudgemental, attention.

 

PS ILWYT!

[NotBlinded]

I'm trying to sort out a little what you mean in your use of false self? The false self is what we project to others as an idealized sense of who we think we should be. We protect our true selves this way. This is not always a bad thing to do, because to be 100% exposed 100% of the time to 100% of everyone, may not be altogether wise?

 

This idealized self is a front or a facade which we may even use to try to shelter ourselves from ourselves. In the worst case scenario, the true self is actually supplanted by the false self, to which the individual no longer has any sense of who there are, but rather see themselves in fractured splinters reflected off other peoples response to them, as they project some desired image to others. They poke and prod away at others in a futile search to see who is in the reflection looking back at them. That to me is the deepest hell.

Hi Antlerman!

 

I'm am going to be a little more candid about myself than I am used to being. This very scenario (plus the death of my mother) is what sent me on my spiritual journey. I was, and still can be, a very angry person. I wore my heart on my sleeve so-to-speak. I would say things to my little girl that I would hate myself for. I was very confused about who I was. Was I this monster that said these horrible things? Was I only pretending to be nice on occasion? I thought that I was this monster and I couldn't live with that any longer. I was confused to who my true self was and to what my false self/ego was. It was a great relief when I discovered the power of the ego. That meant that I was not this horrible person. I was letting my ego control my life. This was masking my true self because I found my identity in my ego. Yes, the very hell the bible speaks of, IMO. I tried blaming my father (which left when I was two) for the way I was. I hated the man because of a note he left after he died. Not that I cared much for him to begin with, but at least now I know that my reactions to life is nobody's fault but my own. I am in charge of my life and I try very hard not to let other people control my emotions for me. Damn it...I'm driving!

 

I would also have panic attacks that would cause me to pass out just because I was being starred at or what I perceived to being starred at. I was on 4-5 different medications at one time until I turned into a zombie with no cares. I didn't care whether I was asleep or awake. Yep...they helped alright! Anytime anyone said anything I would take it negatively. It really sucked!

 

It is very hard to recognize the ego in oneself, especially in my case since that was all I knew. I now know otherwise and I am very grateful for the gradual death of it.

 

I am not saying it has been an easy journey, but I can now recognize these monster attacks for what they are and my daughter is grateful! I am trying to work with her now on identifying these 'attacks'.

[Antlerman]

It is very hard to recognize the ego in oneself, especially in my case since that was all I knew. I now know otherwise and I am very grateful for the gradual death of it.

I'm having a hard time understanding your use of the word ego. There are many applications to this word. When I think of ego I think of either arogance and pride, the consciousness of my own identity (my sense of self), or the conscious mind itself. In the second sense, I would say there is a true self or true ego, or a false self or false ego, as I understand the word. Do you have some other sense you are trying to convey?

[NotBlinded]

It is very hard to recognize the ego in oneself, especially in my case since that was all I knew. I now know otherwise and I am very grateful for the gradual death of it.

I'm having a hard time understanding your use of the word ego. There are many applications to this word. When I think of ego I think of either arogance and pride, the consciousness of my own identity (my sense of self), or the conscious mind itself. In the second sense, I would say there is a true self or true ego, or a false self or false ego, as I understand the word. Do you have some other sense you are trying to convey?

Yes, but I'm not too sure I can explain it very well. My niece said the same thing you just did about it being of arrogance and pride. Those two things are of the ego, but so is self-loathing and self-disgust and everything in between. The ego is necessary for us, but it must not be allowed to control us. It is not our true nature. It's a survival tool.

 

This site here explains it as I understand it. Spirit vs Ego

 

Edit: I want to expound a little on what I just said. The ego is what creates a division between us and others. It is there to protect the individual from harm but if it is in control, this division forces judgement on ourself and on others. It provides the us vs them mentality that we are all too familiar with. But, in certain situations it is necessary. I watched a show on National Geographic called Grizzly Man I think it was and this man lived with the bears every summer. He wanted to show the world that they are not as vicious as they are portrayed to be. He had taken the 'oneness' concept too far and in the end, a bear mauled and consumed him and his girl friend. His ego should have stepped in and said hey...you are not a bear and it is dangerous for you to be here...you are separate from them. This is a survival tool meant to protect. But, it is not meant to be the controlling force in one's life. We can know we are one with everything without having to prove it. Actually, having to prove it is just another trick of the ego.

 

So, when I say something that relates to the ego dying, I am relating to the death of the ego as a form of my identity. It is not who I am, but a necessary part of who I am. It should not be the controlling force in my life. It is a tool only.

 

The separateness the ego creates is what I often refer to when Adam and Eve is mentioned. It is turning away from our spiritual self and finding our identity within our egos. This theme follows the bible throughout.

 

The poem you posted also has this theme of oneness and the ego dying as an indentity.

[Fweethawt]

The poem you posted also has this theme of oneness and the ego dying as an indentity.

I thought it had to do with one finding their identity. (you know, the True Self™ and all that jazz.)

[Seabiscuit]

Ok, I've been chewing on this discussion all day, last night, and this am. I'm just stuck. I think where I'm stuck is that I'm use to and in the habit of polarized thinking. There is bad/good, right/wrong, and then true/false.

 

At this point of my deconversioning, I'm finding out who I am and who that energy is out there--my connection.

 

I'm not trying to pull apart or argue words; its just that I feel I'm missing something important.

 

Antlerman in his last post reminded me what my counselor tells me often, we do not have to nor should we tell or be everything with everyone. So, if the false self is a natural and needed protection, why is it false? I think that ego has a negative meaning as well. I got to thinking about how language and cultural are so closely intertwined with each other. I've been trying to find more neutral words to better describe the dichotomy of myself and so far I haven't been able to.

 

I wanted to know what would happen if I took the view of myself out of the polarized framework that I'm so use to. Keeping in mind this is all subjective--it gets to be very difficult. I thought that if I could construct a different viewpoint, could learn more about my connection and myself. However, the metaphor of dying keeps wrecking all my attempts to construct this alternative viewpoint.

 

Last year at SFMOMA, I saw this photo by Diane Arbus of a corpse in the morgue with a toe tag. I should have been repulsed by it but I wasn't. I started thinking about death. Death means that whatever one weighs the amount of hair on one's head, or the times one called h/her mother is done. No more worries. I thought this is what religion is supposed to do for the living--take away the anxiety of life and bring us to acceptance.

 

However, to OM's point, being or true selves doesn't mean we're happy all the time either. Life doesn't just get easier at least on the outside. I have noticed that keeping honest with myself makes life somewhat easier.

[Antlerman]

Antlerman in his last post reminded me what my counselor tells me often, we do not have to nor should we tell or be everything with everyone. So, if the false self is a natural and needed protection, why is it false? I think that ego has a negative meaning as well. I got to thinking about how language and cultural are so closely intertwined with each other. I've been trying to find more neutral words to better describe the dichotomy of myself and so far I haven't been able to.

 

I wanted to know what would happen if I took the view of myself out of the polarized framework that I'm so use to. Keeping in mind this is all subjective--it gets to be very difficult. I thought that if I could construct a different viewpoint, could learn more about my connection and myself. However, the metaphor of dying keeps wrecking all my attempts to construct this alternative viewpoint.

I was originally preparing my thoughts about language to an earlier post of yours, but was unable to get back to it. We're back again to language.

 

My confusion a little is in how those in spritual disciplines are using the idea of true/false self. These are terms of psychology. What make the false self "false", is because it is a deliberately "crafted" image of oneself. A facade on a building is a "front", but it serves a purpose as a face to the building. It that front "wrong"? Not really, it's just what it is technically. It's just the attached front.

 

My false self, the one I show people, in fact represent some of my true self, but is not the whole thing fully exposed. It is not "lying" to people about who I am. I don't pretend to be some great movie star, or something totally that is not reflective of what I experience of my true self inside. I suspect where spiritual discipline strives to seek is that the connection between our true selves and the one we present to others or our own selves, does not become disconnected.

 

This leads to a thought for me: The fundamentalist is all about the front. Here are the rules to live by. Our negative reactions to them is because we never sense their "true self". It is all the "false self". Eventually they become so disconnected with themselves internally, that you have the unnatural human person standing in front of you with a bible in their hand. We sense their "sincerity" as false, because it is not comming from the true self. Their false self has entierly become their true self, which is not really who they are/were. It's like a facade with no buidling whatsover behind it. It feels creepy

 

BTW: the term ego that is being thrown out there by some of these pop spiritual teachers on the Internet I feel is very confusing and misleading. Ego is not negative. Ego has a well established meaning in psycology and it does not mean something bad. I think the pop spiritual teachers need to learn the terminology and use it properly or not at all. There are already words out there they can use to describe their concpets without polluting a well established technical nomenclature. It's really doing a disservice to their readers.

 

edited to correct a technical error

[NotBlinded]

The poem you posted also has this theme of oneness and the ego dying as an indentity.

I thought it had to do with one finding their identity. (you know, the True Self™ and all that jazz.)

Yep...that's right. But, something had to give way in order to find their true self (hence the burial).

[NotBlinded]

Antlerman in his last post reminded me what my counselor tells me often, we do not have to nor should we tell or be everything with everyone. So, if the false self is a natural and needed protection, why is it false? I think that ego has a negative meaning as well. I got to thinking about how language and cultural are so closely intertwined with each other. I've been trying to find more neutral words to better describe the dichotomy of myself and so far I haven't been able to.

 

I wanted to know what would happen if I took the view of myself out of the polarized framework that I'm so use to. Keeping in mind this is all subjective--it gets to be very difficult. I thought that if I could construct a different viewpoint, could learn more about my connection and myself. However, the metaphor of dying keeps wrecking all my attempts to construct this alternative viewpoint.

I was originally preparing my thoughts about language to an earlier post of yours, but was unable to get back to it. We're back again to language.

 

My confusion a little is in how those in spritual disciplines are using the idea of true/false self. These are terms of psychology. What make the false self "false", is because it is a deliberately "crafted" image of oneself. A facade on a building is a "front", but it serves a purpose as a face to the building. It that front "wrong"? Not really, it's just what it is technically. It's just the attached front.

 

My false self, the one I show people, in fact represent some of my true self, but is not the whole thing fully exposed. It is not "lying" to people about who I am. I don't pretend to be some great movie star, or something totally that is not reflective of what I experience of my true self inside. I suspect where spiritual discipline strives to seek is that the connection between our true selves and the one we present to others or our own selves, does not become disconnected.

 

This leads to a thought for me: The fundamentalist is all about the front. Here are the rules to live by. Our negative reactions to them is because we never sense their "true self". It is all the "false self". Eventually they become so disconnected with themselves internally, that you have the unnatural human person standing in front of you with a bible in their hand. We sense their "sincerity" as false, because it is not comming from the true self. Their false self has entierly become their true self, which is not really who they are/were. It's like a facade with no buidling whatsover behind it. It feels creepy

 

BTW: the term ego that is being thrown out there by some of these pop spiritual teachers on the Internet I feel is very confusing and misleading. Ego is not negative. Ego has a well established meaning in psycology and it does not mean something bad. I think the pop spiritual teachers need to learn the terminology and use it properly or not at all. There are already words out there they can use to describe their concpets without polluting a well established technical nomenclature. It's really doing a disservice to their readers.

 

edited to correct a technical error

I agree with most of what you wrote Antlerman, but I disagree with your take on the definition of ego.

 

e·go (g, g)

n. pl. e·gos

1. The self, especially as distinct from the world and other selves.

2. In psychoanalysis, the division of the psyche that is conscious, most immediately controls thought and behavior, and is most in touch with external reality.

3.

a. An exaggerated sense of self-importance; conceit.

b. Appropriate pride in oneself; self-esteem.

 

Number 1 is all I ever address. I know you have a dislike for 'pop' spiritual teachers as you call them, but as I have said before and will again...this is an ancient understanding. If my use of the word offends anyone, then use something else. I won't do that because the word means just what I understand it to mean...if you know what I mean.

[Open_Minded]

I thought this is what religion is supposed to do for the living--take away the anxiety of life and bring us to acceptance.

 

However, to OM's point, being or true selves doesn't mean we're happy all the time either. Life doesn't just get easier at least on the outside. I have noticed that keeping honest with myself makes life somewhat easier.

 

Hello Seabiscuit.

 

1st I hope this conversation is not too overwhelming for you. If it is - just jump in and feel free to narrow the conversation.

 

About what you said above ... this whole idea of religion as a means to "take away the anxiety of life and bring us to acceptance". That is a relatively new point of view for me. I first ran into it when a few young girls I know got caught up in a fundamentalist church. I've really noticed this dynamic here - when I hear people talk about their experiences with literal Christianity.

 

Personally, I've never looked at my religious beliefs as a way to release me, or those I love, from pain. Quite the contrary - I've been taught that pain and chaos are a part of life. A normal (although frustrating and often frightening or agonizing) part of life. My religious beliefs do not eliminate pain from my life. My belief in something more, something bigger than myself - is a source of strength and comfort. That "bigger than me presence" that you talked of earlier. It is not the source of pain - it is the source of strength in the face of pain. It is not the reason for chaos - it is the ordering of chaos. It is the LOVE and WISDOM needed to deal with pain and chaos.

 

So ... you're right in one way. It doesn't get easier - the pain will still be there. We will still loose people we love, chaotic and unexpected negative things will continue to happen.

 

But ... in an odd way it does get easier to deal with all of this. If we learn to connect with that "bigger than me presence" we learn to connect with the inner resources we need to face the pain and deal with it productively.

 

Ok, I've been chewing on this discussion all day, last night, and this am. I'm just stuck. I think where I'm stuck is that I'm use to and in the habit of polarized thinking. There is bad/good, right/wrong, and then true/false.

 

At this point of my deconversioning, I'm finding out who I am and who that energy is out there--my connection.

 

I'm not trying to pull apart or argue words; its just that I feel I'm missing something important.

 

Antlerman in his last post reminded me what my counselor tells me often, we do not have to nor should we tell or be everything with everyone. So, if the false self is a natural and needed protection, why is it false? I think that ego has a negative meaning as well. I got to thinking about how language and cultural are so closely intertwined with each other. I've been trying to find more neutral words to better describe the dichotomy of myself and so far I haven't been able to.

 

I wanted to know what would happen if I took the view of myself out of the polarized framework that I'm so use to. Keeping in mind this is all subjective--it gets to be very difficult. I thought that if I could construct a different viewpoint, could learn more about my connection and myself. However, the metaphor of dying keeps wrecking all my attempts to construct this alternative viewpoint.

 

Seabiscuit - you are right to look at this polarized thinking that we in the west are raised with - and examine the effect of that kind of thinking on your life.

 

Antlerman did a good job of explaining the false self using the idea of a brick facade.

 

These are terms of psychology. What make the false self "false", is because it is a deliberately "crafted" image of oneself. A facade on a building is a "front", but it serves a purpose as a face to the building. It that front "wrong"? Not really, it's just what it is technically. It's just the attached front.

 

The only thing that I would add is that if the false self is something we construct - a deliberately "crafted" image of oneself - then we need to recognize it as that. This "false self" is not connected to the inner core of who we are. It does not make its' decisions from "the energy that runs through everything" that you mentioned earlier.

 

And this is why we have to practice "awareness" of our false self. Not to crucify it - but to just simply recognize it for what it is and it's place in our overall life. Are we responding to situations out of our false self (that facade which we build to protect us) or are we making decisions from the "energy that runs through everything" from within our true self? We don't have to judge our reponses as good/bad, right/wrong, etc... just be aware of them. Once we are truly aware of our responses to life - the false self/true self responses will generally sort themselves out. And ... as time passes there will be less of a distinction between the true/false self - you will notice less polarization.

 

Seabiscuit - please let me know if this is helping - or muddying up the waters. I do not want to cause you more frustration. You are in the middle of a de-conversion - and if you need time to absorb - and collect your thoughts, just let us know and we can rest the conversation for a bit.

[NotBlinded]

Ok, I've been chewing on this discussion all day, last night, and this am. I'm just stuck. I think where I'm stuck is that I'm use to and in the habit of polarized thinking. There is bad/good, right/wrong, and then true/false.

 

At this point of my deconversioning, I'm finding out who I am and who that energy is out there--my connection.

 

I'm not trying to pull apart or argue words; its just that I feel I'm missing something important.

 

Antlerman in his last post reminded me what my counselor tells me often, we do not have to nor should we tell or be everything with everyone. So, if the false self is a natural and needed protection, why is it false? I think that ego has a negative meaning as well. I got to thinking about how language and cultural are so closely intertwined with each other. I've been trying to find more neutral words to better describe the dichotomy of myself and so far I haven't been able to.

 

I wanted to know what would happen if I took the view of myself out of the polarized framework that I'm so use to. Keeping in mind this is all subjective--it gets to be very difficult. I thought that if I could construct a different viewpoint, could learn more about my connection and myself. However, the metaphor of dying keeps wrecking all my attempts to construct this alternative viewpoint.

 

Last year at SFMOMA, I saw this photo by Diane Arbus of a corpse in the morgue with a toe tag. I should have been repulsed by it but I wasn't. I started thinking about death. Death means that whatever one weighs the amount of hair on one's head, or the times one called h/her mother is done. No more worries. I thought this is what religion is supposed to do for the living--take away the anxiety of life and bring us to acceptance.

 

However, to OM's point, being or true selves doesn't mean we're happy all the time either. Life doesn't just get easier at least on the outside. I have noticed that keeping honest with myself makes life somewhat easier.

Seabisquit,

 

I just wanted to post a little something from Dogen Zenji (Zen Master and Philosospher 1200 - 1253)

 

For Buddhism, the dualism between life and death is only one instance of a more general problem, dualistic thinking. Why is dualistic thinking a problem? We differentiate between good and evil, success and failure, life and death, and so forth because we want to keep the one and reject the other. But we cannot have one without the other because they are interdependent: affirming one half also maintains the other. Living a "pure" life thus requires a preoccupation with impurity, and our hope for success will be proportional to our fear of failure. We discriminate between life and death in order to affirm one and deny the other, and, as we have seen, our tragedy lies in the paradox that these two opposites are so interdependent: there is no life without death and--what we are more likely to overlook--there is no death without life. This means our problem is not death but life-and-death.

 

And a little more that goes with it:

 

At issue are the boundaries of the Self as a symbolized entity. There is a clear sense of the relationship between awareness of death and a delineated Self. The second is impossible without the first. Even prior to the disturbing syllogism, "If death exists, then I will die," there is an earlier one: "Since 'I' was born and will die, 'I' must exist."

 

If we can realize that there is no delineated Ego-self which is alive now, the problem of life-and-death is solved. And such is the Buddhist goal: to experience that which cannot die because it was never born.

 

If our minds have created this dualism, they should be able to un-create or deconstruct it.

 

Death of the Ego: A Buddhist View

[Antlerman]

I agree with most of what you wrote Antlerman, but I disagree with your take on the definition of ego.

 

e·go (g, g)

n. pl. e·gos

1. The self, especially as distinct from the world and other selves.

 

Number 1 is all I ever address. I know you have a dislike for 'pop' spiritual teachers as you call them, but as I have said before and will again...this is an ancient understanding. If my use of the word offends anyone, then use something else. I won't do that because the word means just what I understand it to mean...if you know what I mean.

How is that definition negative? My objection is that what I am hearing being used is being spoken of in a context of being something bad. This is confusing to me. We are speaking about personalities and are using psycological terminology such as True Self/ False Self. When we use the term Ego in this very context in ways that don't match psycological concepts...

 

Look how s/he from that web site uses an already established term and heaps some quasi-spiritual, pop-psychology language on to it:

 

The other "energy force" is more practical, cautious, judgmental, and protective. This force wants to look good for others, or at the very least, avoid looking bad. "It" likes to control, although pretends that it's not. "It" views the world as a potentially harmful place, fears being hurt and exposed, thus remains separate, isolated and closed from others. It blames, criticizes, compares, and makes excuses. "Should" is one of its favorite words. This energy looks for answers from its mind…although often confuses "reality" from something "made-up". Living isolated within the confines the body, "it" mostly just wants to be "safe" and "independent".

 

I call this energy force "ego". And, it too, is always there for us to access.

(Emphasis mine). Why "I call"??? Ego already means something. This is my point. I was and am still confused by how it has been used in the thread. s/he is modifying this word to mean "energy force" that wants to project a postive self image to others and then totally, misappropriately calls that the Ego. Can you show me where the term Ego was ever used in the ancient understanding of this concept of False Self? The term to use is False Self.

 

Mixing and modifying nomenclature arbitrarily from multiple disciplines frustatrates understanding. I am only upset at these sorts of teachers who are being lazy and sloppy with language. My impression is they're trying hard to sound insightful "I call this energy force ego" (yeah, you can say ego alright), but that's just my deep cynical side talking there...

 

BTW, I'm really not wanting to upset you by my being hard about this, but this sort of thing ranks way high on my irritation level with pop culture. It's pseudo knowledge.

[NotBlinded]

Antlerman,

 

It is only negative if one finds their identity in it. Even then, it is what it is. It is a necessary part of people.

 

It seems you are using the pyschological definition only, whereas I am using it in reference to being separate from all that is. This is an illusion (in the spiritual tradition), but a necessary one in order to ensure our (bodily) survival. The problem lies in understanding that illusion as who we are (our bodies). It creates division and forces judgements as us vs them. This duality is spoke of above in the buddhist link. You don't have to believe it in order to understand it.

 

To understand this, we have to understand that we are more than our bodies. We are all one with god/the unmanifested/Being or whatever. This is what the Adam and Eve allegory relates to, even if it is read literally. It is turning away from god/our true nature and following our mind/knowledge/egos. It is another dimension that is being addressed whereas the pyshological understanding only deals with the dimension of form (our body/brain).

 

Ego is identification with form. When we identify ourselves with our bodies, we are identifying with form when our true nature is formless. We see ourselves as "distinct from the world and other selves" as an individual entity.

 

If it bothers you when I use it, just pretend I said something else. It's just a pointer anyway! :-} Don Miguel Ruiz (The Ancient Toltec Tradition) calls it "The Voice of Knowlege".

 

Here is a Hindu understanding:

 

Ahamkara: Hindu - Hinduism Dictionary on Ahamkara

 

ahamkara: (Sanskrit) "I-maker." Personal ego. The mental faculty of individuation; sense of duality and separateness from others. Sense of I-ness, "me" and "mine." Ahamkara is characterized by the sense of I-ness (abhimana), sense of mine-ness, identifying with the body (madiyam), planning for one's own happiness (mamasukha), brooding over sorrow (mamaduhkha), and possessiveness (mama idam). See: anava, ego, mind (individual mind).

 

When I understood the essence of what the sign (ego) was pointing to, I could find this same theme amongst spiritual traditions that I am familiar with. This was the dot that I did not see when I was trying to connect the dots. In this sense, reading the bible and other myths remained a mystery to me until this understanding was made.

 

PS...I would use the term false self if that is what I meant.

[Seabiscuit]

First, thanks to all three of you for the thought provoking posts. All of your input is very helpful to me.

 

As I sit with my thoughts and piece all this together, my struggle becomes clearer to me. I'm not stuck in christianity itself, but in the language. I've not been to church except for one funeral for almost fifteen years. I realize that the main part struggle at this point isn't with religion itself but with my abuse. I say "main part" because I am struggling with bible god language. OM, I'm trying to be careful not to be disrespectful to your belief system because I know it is very different from what I experienced.

 

Before I explain, I want to acknowledge that I'm coming into a conversation already started and what I have to say is more personal and maybe icky. But I don't know how to strip away "icky" in order to communicate why false/true self has been important to explore. So, I offer an apology for getting into details of abuse in order to explain myself.

 

So, from the time I was about six or seven years old, I had two gods—bible god and my connection. I couldn't have explained this; I just knew it to be true. Bible god manifested as my parents and other adults within our church when I was a child. When the adults witnessed my sin against bible god, I received a beating. These adults were my parents, another couple within the church, and a few other family members. I've been pretty open about this so its nothing new.

 

Today while I was sitting quietly with myself and my connection, I had a fearful thought. I was sitting in the basement of an old building in downtown San Francisco. This building belongs to my gym, but here I am sitting at 6:15 am just me with my gentle music. My thought was that someone could come in, harm me, and no one would know. I'm *not* trying to be dramatic. I thought someone could slit my throat like in the news and they'd find me later.

 

I had no idea why I would think of such a thing. So, I just sat with the thought. I did what my new Buddhist principles have taught me and thanked the thought and wondered why it was there. All of a sudden it hit me why I was having the thought and why I have been feeling depressed lately. You see, I felt so helpless during the beatings. There were times I didn't think I could catch my breath—I couldn't breathe. When I have an asthma attack now, that's what it feels like. Dying whether it is part of my psychological self or my body doesn't frighten me.

 

It is being helpless at the hands of another human being that scares me beyond words. I have always told myself that the abuse could never happen again, but that's not true. When OM talked about the spiritual connection not taking away the bad, I felt intensely sad. But, you're correct OM!

 

At any time during our life, anyone can do harm to us. I know this is just a fact of life that we can't change. Turn on the news and listen to what is happening in other countries.

 

As far as the false self, that was my only protection as a child against beatings. If I appeared super cheerful and accommodating, I could perhaps avoid the wrath of bible god. I saw myself through the eyes of bible god and what I saw disgusted me. There was a list of sins and undesirable traits. I learned that my false self and my body were born into this world evil and needed to submit to a "dying" process. My body was especially bad because I was born female.

 

Subconsciously, I've been struggling what to do with these ideas about my false self. Am I sinful? In my new terms, do I need to die to my false self? What all of you have shared with me resonates with me. Ideas around having an awareness about my false self. That its necessary to have a false self. That being disconnected from my true self is what's unhealthy.

 

Not Blinded by the Light (NBBTL), I really enjoyed what you sent about the Buddhist principles. When I feel myself lose grip with bible god, the oneness of life and death becomes clear and a concept that is preferable to me.

 

If I have any frustration, OM, it is because I keep tripping over the bible god language. I'm afraid that I'm so far behind all of you.

 

The last point I wanted to share is that the act of posting within my conversations with all of you in and of itself very healing for me. When someone is sick or victim, many people pull away. In my society, being a victim is a shameful thing—its icky. If you were a co-worker or an acquaintance, you'd think I was warm, confident people-person. My false self or public self is very different from my inside self. I have to be this way because fear I'd lose contacts and my life would fall apart if people knew I was struggling.

 

When I think about having compassion and a gentle awareness of my false self, life seems so much more inviting, loving, and warm. I think being in connection with the right people and open to the being bigger then me, helps me embrace the sides of myself that have been on bible god's chopping block for far too long. I'm super careful who I share my journey with and I'm glad I have this forum to share with all of you.

 

I'll take a few days to let this all settle and come back to the board in a few days. OM, I'll get back to your questions soon.

s

[Open_Minded]

First, thanks to all three of you for the thought provoking posts. All of your input is very helpful to me.

 

As I sit with my thoughts and piece all this together, my struggle becomes clearer to me. I'm not stuck in christianity itself, but in the language. I've not been to church except for one funeral for almost fifteen years. I realize that the main part struggle at this point isn't with religion itself but with my abuse. I say "main part" because I am struggling with bible god language. OM, I'm trying to be careful not to be disrespectful to your belief system because I know it is very different from what I experienced.

 

Seabiscuit ... thank you for your respect. But, don't worry too much. I'm well aware that the belief system you grew up and the one I am a part of are two different animals under the same label. You won't offend me.

 

Today while I was sitting quietly with myself and my connection, I had a fearful thought. I was sitting in the basement of an old building in downtown San Francisco. This building belongs to my gym, but here I am sitting at 6:15 am just me with my gentle music. My thought was that someone could come in, harm me, and no one would know. I'm *not* trying to be dramatic. I thought someone could slit my throat like in the news and they'd find me later.

 

I had no idea why I would think of such a thing. So, I just sat with the thought. I did what my new Buddhist principles have taught me and thanked the thought and wondered why it was there. All of a sudden it hit me why I was having the thought and why I have been feeling depressed lately. You see, I felt so helpless during the beatings. There were times I didn't think I could catch my breath—I couldn't breathe. When I have an asthma attack now, that's what it feels like. Dying whether it is part of my psychological self or my body doesn't frighten me.

 

See ... this is basically the same thing I was talking about when I talked about the "watcher". How wonderful for you, that you were able to be honest without the emotional swings that you might have had to deal with earlier in your life. I am happy for you Seabiscuit.

 

It is being helpless at the hands of another human being that scares me beyond words. I have always told myself that the abuse could never happen again, but that's not true. When OM talked about the spiritual connection not taking away the bad, I felt intensely sad. But, you're correct OM!

 

At any time during our life, anyone can do harm to us. I know this is just a fact of life that we can't change. Turn on the news and listen to what is happening in other countries.

 

I am sorry for the saddness my statements brought you Seabiscuit. But am happy that you understand why I needed to be honest in this area.

 

As far as the false self, that was my only protection as a child against beatings.

 

Which is exactly why we must not be judgmental in regards to our false selves.

 

Subconsciously, I've been struggling what to do with these ideas about my false self. Am I sinful? In my new terms, do I need to die to my false self? What all of you have shared with me resonates with me. Ideas around having an awareness about my false self. That its necessary to have a false self. That being disconnected from my true self is what's unhealthy.

 

Exactly - Seabiscuit. The other thing that we can do - when we "watch" our false selves and allow ourselves to be objective in regards to our false selves is to ask if particular aspects of this self are still necessary. Do we still need the same facade we built as children? If not, what parts of the facade can we start letting go of - not pushing away violently - but gently allowing them to go. Do you know what I mean?

 

If I have any frustration, OM, it is because I keep tripping over the bible god language. I'm afraid that I'm so far behind all of you.

 

Don't apologize about "tripping ove the bible god language". If I had come out of your background I'd have thrown the whole damn book away. We are all - at least partially - products of our lives. It's not necessary to embrace the Christian language. It may be necessary - for the sake of healing - to try and see that system in a different light. But - you do not need to claim it as your own - ever.

 

When I think about having compassion and a gentle awareness of my false self, life seems so much more inviting, loving, and warm. I think being in connection with the right people and open to the being bigger then me, helps me embrace the sides of myself that have been on bible god's chopping block for far too long. I'm super careful who I share my journey with and I'm glad I have this forum to share with all of you.

 

We're all happy you are here as well, Seabiscuit.

 

I'll take a few days to let this all settle and come back to the board in a few days. OM, I'll get back to your questions soon.

 

Take all the time you need. Sometimes - it's important to step back and absorb. If that's what you need to do, then it's fine with us. We'll rest the conversation as long as you need to.

[NotBlinded]

Wonderful, sincere post!

Seabiscuit, first a great big cyber hug to you: ((((((((((((((Seabiscuit)))))))))))))))

 

You are going to be fine! Every thing you put into your post tells me this. And, thank you so much for sharing your journey with us!

[Seabiscuit]

So, I posted my very lengthy experience about realizing that spritual beliefs can't take away the bad. We talked at length about false self/true self.

 

My friends, this was extremely healing for me. I feel much more solid in myself and in being ex-christian. I can actually look in the mirror and say, "there is no hell." I always add, "Other then the hell we make for ourselves and others."

 

I realized that I owed my false self respect and celebration as much as the rest of me. It took all sides of myself to get through the dark times.

 

I can only offer a "thank you" to OM, Antlerman, and NBBTL! ((((hugs!)))))

 

Antlerman, I hope you start that thread because I can't wait to start a new conversation! Did I miss it? I hope not...

[Antlerman]

Antlerman, I hope you start that thread because I can't wait to start a new conversation! Did I miss it? I hope not...

No, you haven't missed it. Like yourself, I'm processing thoughts and feelings and moving through stages in the evolution of my own views. These have been days of substantial growth for me. I've been laying a little low for awhile, sort of biting off only at the edges in a couple threads, but I will bring my thoughts in more again soon. I'll make sure to PM you when I post a new topic.

 

P.S. I'm very, very happy to hear so many postitive things are happening for you.

[Open_Minded]

So, I posted my very lengthy experience about realizing that spritual beliefs can't take away the bad. We talked at length about false self/true self.

 

My friends, this was extremely healing for me. I feel much more solid in myself and in being ex-christian. I can actually look in the mirror and say, "there is no hell." I always add, "Other then the hell we make for ourselves and others."

 

I realized that I owed my false self respect and celebration as much as the rest of me. It took all sides of myself to get through the dark times.

 

I can only offer a "thank you" to OM, Antlerman, and NBBTL! ((((hugs!)))))

 

Antlerman, I hope you start that thread because I can't wait to start a new conversation! Did I miss it? I hope not...

 

Seabiscuit ... I am very happy for you, truly. This past week, on the board, has been a real struggle for me. But, your willingness to be so frank about your childhood in the Written on our Hearts thread. Well, I am humbled to say the least. As hard as it is for me to venture out into the "parallel universe" of extremist Christianity - it does not even come close to what you (and others here) have had to deal with. You are a real asset to this board - and I am SOooo... happy that your healing has brought you to a place where you have the strength to write the things you've written this week.

 

I'm happy that your healing has gotten to the point where you can lookin the mirror and say, "there is not hell, accept for the one we create for ourselves and others". I'm happy because this means a weight has been lifted off of your soul. Congratulations - Seabiscuit, really.

 

In Peace:

 

Open_Minded