Leaving Jesus is not Leaving God!

[Open_Minded]

I have been wanting to open up a topic of mythology and symbols, which you and I have touched on a lot in here, but I've wanted to get through this first with you before focusing on that. The symbols for me are both important and a stumbling for myself, and I would suspect those like me. You're being able to do this genuinely impresses me. But maybe it will be nothing I can ever do - sad really.

 

Of course having people of other disciplines of mysticism talking about mystical knowledge and rational thought would be a great topic to expand our awareness and appreciation of the world. I really don't know if I can "plan" a topic. These are things that are in my spirit to explore, but I have zero doubts that this shall continue....

 

OK.... OK..... streches, yawns..... puts feet up on coffee table and takes a sip of wine

 

Back to the discussion at hand.

 

Antlerman, and anyone else who is interested, a topic on mythology and symbols does not have to be separate from discussion about mystical knowledge with people of different disciplines. They can go hand-in-hand.

 

Take for example the discussion we had earlier about "vicarious suffering". I know other spiritual traditions also acknowledge this and use mythology to portray it. What mythological stories are used to teach about this in Hinduism, or Buddhism, or Native American traditions???

 

Or.... for instance... the idea of living in the "eternal now".... how is mythology used to point to this understanding????

 

Or maybe... another cross cultural principal is the understanding that judging by surface appearances, depending too much on our physical senses can cause us pain.... what different mythologies in other disciplines are used to describe this same principal????

 

Do you see where I'm going here. A discussion of different mythology to teach common, or core principals, across traditions would be very instructive for all of us

 

Just a thought, takes another sips of wine (or beer - you choose) and looks around the room

[Antlerman]

OK.... OK..... streches, yawns..... puts feet up on coffee table and takes a sip of wine

 

Back to the discussion at hand.

Wine at 1030 am? Which raises an interesting aside: Wine is used in ritual, and ritual is also a highly intricate part of religious practice in the expression of mythology. We really haven't spent any time discussing the role of ritual in connection with myth systems. Then there are the mind altering chemicals used in religious practice to induce that sense of expanded perception in pursuit of spiritual knowledge, but I think ritual is also a part of this.

 

What's difficult for me is that the only symbols or mythology I can draw from is that of the Christian religion. But... I must admit I can imagine how odd it would feel for me to say what my views are of what "Christ" said, or to do an interpretative exploration of scripture. I'm way more open now than I recall every being since my rejection of religion, where I can look at the world, and embrace that sense of wonder with a new freedom in my soul, not feeling accused of hypocrisy of some old notions of rational beliefs, but... I don't know that I can come as far as you have been able to do with a measured success, to be able to reclaim the symbols and language for your expression of spirit. Not that I can't hear and understand and appreciate and derive meaning from you using that, it's just a language that may take a great deal of time for me to feel comfortable with to use myself, or if I ever can, and end up pursuing some other means of expression, if any. Well, that was a mouthful.

 

I can certainly see Hinduism, Native America beliefs, Sufism, etc having common symbols and concepts, but what does the secular humanist/atheist use? I think someone with experience in Theravada Buddhism may have some insights into this? But I am void of teachings, disciplines, rituals, mythologies, and religious symbols. Hmmm.... yet I experience the wonder, but suspect there must be a system if I were to desire to nurture and expand that knowledge, that would foster growth without pushing undesirable affects upon me that would work contrary to that hope. You seem to have come at this with much the same perspectives, but have found a system that works for you. My only mythology is art.

 

Does this make sense?

 

 

Just a thought, takes another sips of wine (or beer - you choose) and looks around the room

Looks around the room to see if someone is watching you hit the bottle so early in the day?

[Skankboy]

To me, ritual is method to throw yourself out of the mundane, either alone or as a group, and helps to access the "spiritual". By spiritual I mean the experiencing the non-duality of actual existence.

[NotBlinded]

My only mythology is art.

Oh, oh, oh..

 

I have been listening to The Voice of Knowledge and The Four Agreements by Don Miguel Ruiz. His spiritual message is not much different than that of other theologies and spiritual teachings (based on my limited knowledge) except what one might call evil, he calls lies. It's the wisdom of the Ancient Toltec teachings that he employs. You can read about him here.

 

What brought him to mind is when you stated that your only mythology is art. I have to add a little background info here in order to get my meaning across, so bear with me.

 

In the Voice of Knowledge, he says that the tree of knowledge in the bible is his favorite allegory that deals with a person's spiritual condition. The tree is just what it says it is...knowledge and when we acquire knowledge, it becomes contaminated by lies (the prince of lies e.g., the serpent). When we acquire knowledge, we begin to judge ourselves and others by the very knowledge that we attain. And in doing so, we create lies that are accepted as truth. An example would be that when someone tells us that we need to achieve something in order to be sucessful and we believe them, we are accepting that we are not successful or perfect. Our spiritual eyes close and we are dead to the truth (that we are perfect). We hold on to these lies with 100% faith that they are the truth and we then create our 'story' about who we are based on those lies that we accept to be the truth. But, these stories are perfect works of art by each and every creator of their story no matter how many lies they contain.

 

His grandfather once told him to imagine Picaso painting a portrait and then the person he was painting looks and says, "That does not look like me" and Picaso says, "Of course it does. It looks just like you." We all create our story based on what is real and true in our perception. So, how do we know what is true (you may ask)? By our intuition. Our intuition can recognize the truth and produce an emotion so that one can know the truth. The truth is a feeling that cannot be described.

 

Anyway, I thought that was a great way of stating the human condition by claiming that we are all artists. The symbols I am facinated with right now are words, which I feel is a big part of mythology.

[NotBlinded]

What? You think involved discussions about the TCP/IP stack in the OSI model, using Cisco L3 swithes with QOS and Large Frame capability for VLAN support for iSCSI SAN backbones is boring? Bite your tongue! There be hidden messages in all those packets, but one must know how the read the trace, to seek the wisdom.

I just want to add something here from the Toltec tradition I referred to in my other post. It comes from the website I listed above.

 

"Over the millennia, European conquest, coupled with a brief period of rampant misuse of personal power by a few of the apprentices, forced the Naguals to conceal the ancestral wisdom and maintain its existence in obscurity. They thought it was important to shield the knowledge from those who were not prepared to use it wisely or who might again intentionally misuse it for personal gain. Fortunately, the esoteric Toltec knowledge was embodied and passed on through generations by different lineages of Naguals. Though it remained veiled in secrecy for hundreds of years, ancient prophecies foretold the coming of an age when it would be necessary to return the wisdom to the people. Now, don Miguel has been guided to share with us the powerful teachings of the Toltec."

 

I honestly feel that there is something to this. If this ancient group felt this way, is it possible that others would also (Christianity)?

[Open_Minded]

Wine at 1030 am? ........Looks around the room to see if someone is watching you hit the bottle so early in the day?

 

Talk about the power of symbol and myth and story.....

 

And from NotBlinded ..... We all create our story based on what is real and true in our perception. So, how do we know what is true (you may ask)?

 

You see in MY mind the evening was getting late, discussion was winding down and Notblinded came over to say she wanted to play. But you (Antlerman) and I, rudely, went off to a corner for tech talk. So.... in MY mind I was rejoining the discussion with a glass of wine and getting relaxed, knowing that the evening would probably go into morning

 

But, this illustrates one lesson as far as story and myth and symbols, one must not take it too literally. But, I'm sure you are already aware of that being the wise young teenager that you are

 

And from Skankboy.... To me, ritual is method to throw yourself out of the mundane, either alone or as a group, and helps to access the "spiritual". By spiritual I mean the experiencing the non-duality of actual existence.

 

Thanks Skankboy .... I was wondering if a Buddhist was going to jump in here

 

This discussion is getting WONDERful again, and I really do want to participate. But - literally - I have to go run some errands. Pour me another glass of wine and I'll jump in later

[Open_Minded]

"Over the millennia, European conquest, coupled with a brief period of rampant misuse of personal power by a few of the apprentices, forced the Naguals to conceal the ancestral wisdom and maintain its existence in obscurity. They thought it was important to shield the knowledge from those who were not prepared to use it wisely or who might again intentionally misuse it for personal gain. Fortunately, the esoteric Toltec knowledge was embodied and passed on through generations by different lineages of Naguals. Though it remained veiled in secrecy for hundreds of years, ancient prophecies foretold the coming of an age when it would be necessary to return the wisdom to the people. Now, don Miguel has been guided to share with us the powerful teachings of the Toltec."

 

I honestly feel that there is something to this. If this ancient group felt this way, is it possible that others would also (Christianity)?

 

A few things...

 

Have you ever heard of the Nag Hammadi Library? It's a collection of ancient Christian writings found in Egypt in 1945. The long and short of it is that the writings were considered heretical by Christian authorities in the 3rd/4th century. I can't remember dates that well. But anyway, to avoid the unpleasantaries that came with being a heretic, the monks who had the writings in the first place probably buried them. Many of the Nag Hammadi writings are Gnostic in nature - one aspect of Gnostism is "inner knowing". Much of what we've been talking about in this thread. So... yes there is parallel across traditions for wisdom being "hidden" to protect it.

 

That brings me to the Native American traditions, of which Toltec knowledge is a part of. I'm going to confess something here. It took me many years to look at Native American wisdom traditions with the same sense of validity that I look at other, written, traditions. And the reason for this is because Native traditions are oral in nature. But, with the help of a good friend - who is also a member of our group - I came to understand the validity of these traditions and the knowledge handed down through oral teachings. My friend is a Christian who has studied Native American traditions in depth. She does NOT share many details with me because part of the tradition is to be very selective in who you discuss certain teachings with. (I think this is a direct result of Europeans coming to America and forcing Christianity on the Native people.)

 

I guess what I'm trying to say here, NotBlinded is that I think your contribution is fascinating and I enjoyed reading much of it. It is wonderful to see a perspective entering into this discussion from a Native Tradition. I have learned over the years, how varied and deep these different traditions are. And I look forward to learning more.

[NotBlinded]

"Over the millennia, European conquest, coupled with a brief period of rampant misuse of personal power by a few of the apprentices, forced the Naguals to conceal the ancestral wisdom and maintain its existence in obscurity. They thought it was important to shield the knowledge from those who were not prepared to use it wisely or who might again intentionally misuse it for personal gain. Fortunately, the esoteric Toltec knowledge was embodied and passed on through generations by different lineages of Naguals. Though it remained veiled in secrecy for hundreds of years, ancient prophecies foretold the coming of an age when it would be necessary to return the wisdom to the people. Now, don Miguel has been guided to share with us the powerful teachings of the Toltec."

 

I honestly feel that there is something to this. If this ancient group felt this way, is it possible that others would also (Christianity)?

 

A few things...

 

Have you ever heard of the Nag Hammadi Library? It's a collection of ancient Christian writings found in Egypt in 1945. The long and short of it is that the writings were considered heretical by Christian authorities in the 3rd/4th century. I can't remember dates that well. But anyway, to avoid the unpleasantaries that came with being a heretic, the monks who had the writings in the first place probably buried them. Many of the Nag Hammadi writings are Gnostic in nature - one aspect of Gnostism is "inner knowing". Much of what we've been talking about in this thread. So... yes there is parallel across traditions for wisdom being "hidden" to protect it.

 

That brings me to the Native American traditions, of which Toltec knowledge is a part of. I'm going to confess something here. It took me many years to look at Native American wisdom traditions with the same sense of validity that I look at other, written, traditions. And the reason for this is because Native traditions are oral in nature. But, with the help of a good friend - who is also a member of our group - I came to understand the validity of these traditions and the knowledge handed down through oral teachings. My friend is a Christian who has studied Native American traditions in depth. She does NOT share many details with me because part of the tradition is to be very selective in who you discuss certain teachings with. (I think this is a direct result of Europeans coming to America and forcing Christianity on the Native people.)

 

I guess what I'm trying to say here, NotBlinded is that I think your contribution is fascinating and I enjoyed reading much of it. It is wonderful to see a perspective entering into this discussion from a Native Tradition. I have learned over the years, how varied and deep these different traditions are. And I look forward to learning more.

Yes, I have looked at the library website and read a few of the scrolls. What fascinates me about the traditions are the commonalities amongst them. On the surface, they appear so different that one could never think there was anything, other than borrowing, in common between them. But, on a deeper level, the core message is the same. Just like people, we only appear to be separate on the surface, but on a deeper level, everything is made of the same stuff.

 

Oh, have you ever seen the movie...I can't remember the name...what is it called when people suffer the wounds of Christ (not that I believe it!)? Stigmata...yeah, that's it! Of course the story is fiction, but what I love about it is when they find out that the church had been hiding the gospel of Jesus that indeed states that god is in us. Ohh...that was too cool!

 

Well, I guess I just ruined the ending if you haven't seen it! Sorry (but I'm not taking it out hehe)!

[Open_Minded]

I can certainly see Hinduism, Native America beliefs, Sufism, etc having common symbols and concepts, but what does the secular humanist/atheist use? I think someone with experience in Theravada Buddhism may have some insights into this? But I am void of teachings, disciplines, rituals, mythologies, and religious symbols. Hmmm.... yet I experience the wonder, but suspect there must be a system if I were to desire to nurture and expand that knowledge, that would foster growth without pushing undesirable affects upon me that would work contrary to that hope. You seem to have come at this with much the same perspectives, but have found a system that works for you. My only mythology is art.

 

Does this make sense?

 

Antlerman.... your last post has been on my mind much this evening..... "but what does the secular humanist/atheist use?" It's a difficult question for a Christian to answer.... even when I didn't consider myself Christian I considered myself Deist. Not too long ago, you and others were explaining atheism to me And now.... the question, "but what does the secular humanist/atheist use?"

 

The only answer I can really come with is a question. Have you ever read any of Joseph Campbell's work? If you are interested in studying mythology, he is the place to start. Years ago I read, THE MASKS OF GOD. It was the beginning of my journey into mythology.

 

One of the most difficult things for me to deal with when I started to explore the history of the Judeo/Christian traditions was the anthropomorphism of the sacred. Joseph Campbell's work helped me to deal with this aspect of sacred Judeo/Christian mythology. First of all I learned that it is not unique at all to humanize the sacred. But, also it helped me understand how to read mythology.

 

But, one of my concerns is that you've already read much of Joseph Campbell's work and so this advice will be moot

 

The hour is getting late, I'll sleep on it and hope that by morning someone with experience in the humanist/atheist approach to these issues will jump in. Barring that maybe a little light will go off in my sleep and an answer will arise. And if all else fails we can have a bit of wine... that always helps

[Antlerman]

Oh, have you ever seen the movie...I can't remember the name...what is it called when people suffer the wounds of Christ (not that I believe it!)? Stigmata...yeah, that's it! Of course the story is fiction, but what I love about it is when they find out that the church had been hiding the gospel of Jesus that indeed states that god is in us. Ohh...that was too cool!

 

Well, I guess I just ruined the ending if you haven't seen it! Sorry (but I'm not taking it out hehe)!

I believe they were drawing larley from the Gospel of Thomas in that theme. You can do a search for the Gospel online with a full translation. It's much different than the narratives of the cannonical gospels.

[NotBlinded]

Oh, have you ever seen the movie...I can't remember the name...what is it called when people suffer the wounds of Christ (not that I believe it!)? Stigmata...yeah, that's it! Of course the story is fiction, but what I love about it is when they find out that the church had been hiding the gospel of Jesus that indeed states that god is in us. Ohh...that was too cool!

 

Well, I guess I just ruined the ending if you haven't seen it! Sorry (but I'm not taking it out hehe)!

I believe they were drawing larley from the Gospel of Thomas in that theme. You can do a search for the Gospel online with a full translation. It's much different than the narratives of the cannonical gospels.

You know, I almost said the Gospel of Thomas (yep...I've read it!. ) but I thought for sure it was Jesus' own gospel that had always been keep hidden. I very well could be wrong. Cool movie though!

 

I can understand the church claiming it heretical because what power would the church have if people actually understood the message?

[Open_Minded]

What's difficult for me is that the only symbols or mythology I can draw from is that of the Christian religion. But... I must admit I can imagine how odd it would feel for me to say what my views are of what "Christ" said, or to do an interpretative exploration of scripture. I'm way more open now than I recall every being since my rejection of religion, where I can look at the world, and embrace that sense of wonder with a new freedom in my soul, not feeling accused of hypocrisy of some old notions of rational beliefs, but... I don't know that I can come as far as you have been able to do with a measured success, to be able to reclaim the symbols and language for your expression of spirit. Not that I can't hear and understand and appreciate and derive meaning from you using that, it's just a language that may take a great deal of time for me to feel comfortable with to use myself, or if I ever can, and end up pursuing some other means of expression, if any. Well, that was a mouthful.

 

I do understand what you are saying... as I mentioned last night... when I first started the process the anthropomorphism of infinite sacredness got in my way. One way I dealt with it is to mentally insert words that were less humanizing of the sacred. Following is a reworking I did early this morning of the creation story in Genesis 1.

 

In the beginning, when ONE LOVE manifested our heavens and the earth, the earth was a formless void and darkness covered the face of the deep.

 

WISDOM understood all that was to be and whispered over the face of the waters.

 

WISDOM was aware and ONE LOVE manifested, "Let there be light"; and there was light.

 

The ONENESS knew that the light was good; and ONE LOVE separated the light from the darkness.

 

The ONENESS knew the light as Day, and the darkness as Night. And there was evening and there was morning, the first day.

 

WISDOM was aware and whispered, "Let there be a dome in the midst of the waters, and let it separate the waters from the waters."

 

Sincerely…ONE LOVE manifested the dome and separated the waters that were under the dome from the waters that were above the dome. And it was so.

 

The ONENESS knew the dome as Sky. And there was evening and there was morning, the second day.

 

WISDOM was aware and whispered, "Let the waters under the sky be gathered together into one place, and let the dry land appear."

 

Sincerely….ONE LOVE manifested and it was so.

 

The ONENESS knew the dry land as Earth, and the waters that were gathered together the ONENESS knew as the Seas.

 

The ONENESS knew that it was good.

 

WISDOM was aware and whispered, "Let the earth put forth vegetation: plants yielding seed, and fruit trees of every kind on earth that bear fruit with the seed in it."

 

Sincerely…ONE LOVE manifested, and it was so.

 

The earth brought forth vegetation: plants yielding seed of every kind, and trees of every kind bearing fruit with the seed in it.

 

The ONENESS knew that it was good. And there was evening and there was morning, the third day.

 

WISDOM was aware and whispered, "Let there be lights in the dome of the sky to separate the day from the night; and let them be for signs and for seasons and for days and years, and let them be lights in the dome of the sky to give light upon the earth."

 

Sincerely….ONE LOVE manifested, and it was so.

 

ONE LOVE manifested the two great lights—the greater light to rule the day and the lesser light to rule the night—and the stars.

 

ONE LOVE set them in the dome of the sky to give light upon the earth, to rule over the day and over the night, and to separate the light from the darkness.

 

The ONENESS knew that it was good. And there was evening and there was morning, the fourth day.

 

WISDOM was aware and whispered, "Let the waters bring forth swarms of living creatures, and let birds fly above the earth across the dome of the sky."

 

Sincerely…ONE LOVE manifested the great sea monsters and every living creature that moves, of every kind, with which the waters swarm, and every winged bird of every kind.

 

The ONENESS knew that it was good.

 

The ONENESS filled them, whispering, "Be fruitful and multiply and fill the waters in the seas, and let birds multiply on the earth."

 

And there was evening and there was morning, the fifth day.

 

WISDOM was aware and whispered, "Let the earth bring forth living creatures of every kind: cattle and creeping things and wild animals of the earth of every kind."

 

Sincerely…ONE LOVE manifested, and it was so.

 

ONE LOVE made the wild animals of the earth of every kind, and the cattle of every kind, and everything that creeps upon the ground of every kind.

 

The ONENESS knew that it was good.

 

WISDOM was aware and whispered, "Let us make humankind in our image, according to our likeness; and let them have love towards the fish of the sea, and towards the birds of the air, and towards the cattle, and towards all the wild animals of the earth, and towards every creeping thing that creeps upon the earth."

 

Sincerely…ONE LOVE manifested humankind in Its own image, in the image of the ONENESS they were created, male and female they were created, equal and complimentary they were created.

 

The ONENESS filled them with wisdom and love.

 

The ONENESS knew them and whispered to them, "Be fruitful and multiply, and bless the earth and honor it; and have love towards the fish of the sea and towards the birds of the air and towards every living thing that moves upon the earth."

 

The ONENESS lived in them and whispered, "See, I have given you every plant yielding seed that is upon the face of all the earth, and every tree with seed in its fruit; you shall have them for food.

 

And to every beast of the earth, and to every bird of the air, and to everything that creeps on the earth, everything that has the breath of life, I have given every green plant for food." And it was so.

 

The ONENESS breathed in everything that It had created, and indeed, it was very good. And there was evening and there was morning, the sixth day.

 

And to the end of our time the ONENESS continues on …within all, beyond all and through all - the entire known universe.

 

Please don't misunderstand me, Antlerman. I do not always read Judeo/Christian mythology (or any mythology for that matter) this way. My most used approach is to really study context, cultural, literary, etc... That is why the current study of the Aramaic Jesus is so interesting to me. When one learns how the culture Jesus grew up in looked at ideas like "sin" or "evil" it puts an entirely new dimension into the study of the gospels.

 

But, it is also an interesting exercise to go out to Crosswalk.com and copy a story like Gen. 1 into a word document. It only takes a few minutes to run find and replace on words such as LORD GOD and replace them with language that is more meaningful to you personally.

 

My only mythology is art.

 

Does this make sense?

 

Yes... actually it does. In my younger days I was a bit of an artist, I actually sold a few pieces. That was a long time ago though. But, art still impacts me on a very deep level....

 

 

 

P.S.

 

I forgot to copy the first paragraph of my reworked Genesis 1 story. It follows.... sorry...

 

In the no-beginning and the no-ending there is only infinite ONENESS. This ONENESS IS WISDOM and sacred energy - the ONE LOVE.; WISDOM always and forever aware - knowing... ONE LOVE always and forever expressing this awareness/knowing... The WISDOM LOVE manifesting the ONENESS - infinitely creating and eternally drawing all back into Itself and making all whole. In the no-beginning and the no-ending the ONENESS of WISDOM and sacred energy - the ONE LOVE - IS - eternally IS…..

 

In the beginning, when ONE LOVE manifested our heavens and the earth, the earth was a formless void and darkness covered the face of the deep. ......

[Seabiscuit]

I've no idea if this thread is too old to add something on. I just know that after reading it last week, I was struck with so many new ideas and ways of thinking. I just had to try or at least add how it impacted me. Thanks again OM for sharing it with me.

 

The idea of god being natural, individual spiritual experiences being subjective and our ability as human beings to have the rare opportunity of being one with god and/or the universe. These were only a few of the themes I picked up in this thread. These were the ones that hit close to home for me.

 

I have extremely mixed feelings about the biblical Jesus. My perspective changes depending on what I'm focusing on within the christian belief system. In this post, I see Jesus metaphorically bridging the gap between my inadequacies to and bible god's perfection.

 

As a child, I had so many inadequacies that I had little hope for obtaining any kind of mastery over my own life. I would only obtain mastery of my own life through my father, the church, Jesus and then god. In a sense, I experienced "oneness" with a lack of self. Now, OM I realize this isn't the oneness you've talked about.

 

As I grew into adulthood, my list of inadequacies grew and became more complicated. There was suppose to be some outward force that was going to fix me, I just didn't have enough faith. Those wonderfully warm feelings of love would come when I had mastered my life.

 

The odd thing was that during my childhood and early adulthood, I had a "natural" sense of something bigger then me. As I grew, so did It. This "bigger then me presence" went from Father, to Mother/Father, to the Unknown. The sense I got from this Natural presence was that I was acceptable just as I am/was. This wasn't an outside presence coming in to fix me. It, too, lacked boundaries just like the forces on the outside (father, church, Jesus, and bible god). But through this connection, I felt a deep sense of love and acceptance. Not looking up at the sky or at someone else, but within my own body. I liked what OM said about nature being the window into God's soul. I feel the same thing.

 

Last year in May, I decided to journey into my emotional difficulties that included post traumatic stress disorder and anxiety disorder. I wanted to find peace so that I could live life more fully. My life was ok at this point, but I didn't want the pain of anxiety. Eventually, I found this board and began to untangle myself from what was left of my christian belief system. I decided that I needed to open up to the idea that there may be no god at all. I had no explanation for who I'd been talking to all those years. During a meditation, I told that larger being that I was leaving. I needed to know how deep the fairy tale went. I felt peacefully venturing out but soon I was depressed and lost. It was through this thread that I decided that I could accept a natural god and reconnect to that larger being. It wasn't the same as opening myself up to all those outside forces that walked over my boundaries to fix me and my imperfections. I have such a greater sense of peace and happiness. I now realize that my saying "goodbye" was like saying "goodbye" to my elbow.

 

The one new aspect of all of this is that I play a huge role in this larger then me connection. I never saw that before. When grandma died 10 years ago, I lost that wonderful feeling experienced in my relationship with her. It has suddenly occurred to me that I made up 50% of that relationship. Those great feelings came from me too. I only lost 50% of those. I suspect it is the same for the natural god. I make up 50% of that relationship. I bring my own personality and perspectives. I admit it is subjective. But it's also very real. I'm still working on this new idea and I'm loving it! If I never experience that sense of internal "oneness," I will not be concerned because I feel so much love in that connection.

 

I hope I haven't been too long winded. I read 14 pages! I had a ton to say.

[Antlerman]

I hope I haven't been too long winded. I read 14 pages! I had a ton to say.

Wow. It's wonderful to hear your process this way. I don't know if I can adequately respond to it now as I would wish to. This seems such a personal and sacred process for you, and that you have been make some huge personal strides lately. This is wonderful.

 

I've recently been considering posting a topic that really touches on all of what you are seeing, and what I have been processing a lot lately. I am considering calling it "Who is God? Me.", or perhaps more succinctly, "I am God". It kind of has a shock element to it, but the underlying metaphorical truth is what I have been seeing more fully lately. I have always said people create God in their own image, but I think I've always been viewing that as society, and somewhat minimizing the individual’s creation of God, or more importantly... my own creation of God. I tapped into a deep part of my own personality that transcended the mundane of my own world of perceptions in my creation of God. God is therefore, me. The church made Him something external and foreign, and full of contradictions, and spiritually unfulfilling.

 

We'll see about starting that topic, but I feel it really taps into what you are considering.

[Seabiscuit]

I hope I haven't been too long winded. I read 14 pages! I had a ton to say.

 

We'll see about starting that topic, but I feel it really taps into what you are considering.

 

Oh, please, please, please start that topic. I so badly want to play too! I wish so much to have a place to discuss things. I miss having folks to discuss deep issues with! My journey is very sacred to me and I really want to share, talk, discuss my journey and others. I learn so much from others people's journey!!!

 

I hope I haven't given the impression in my posts that I don't want to talk. Several folks have stated at some point not wanting or knowing what to say. It feels so loney having these thoughts just in my head!

 

s

[Antlerman]

Oh, please, please, please start that topic. I so badly want to play too! I wish so much to have a place to discuss things. I miss having folks to discuss deep issues with! My journey is very sacred to me and I really want to share, talk, discuss my journey and others. I learn so much from others people's journey!!!

 

I hope I haven't given the impression in my posts that I don't want to talk. Several folks have stated at some point not wanting or knowing what to say. It feels so loney having these thoughts just in my head!

 

s

Ok you got it. Give me a little time to put together some cohesive thoughts in my brain first. I'm a little occupied with a few things to make much sense communicated some of my thoughts right now. But I'll be hitting hard again very soon.. promise.

[Open_Minded]

The odd thing was that during my childhood and early adulthood, I had a "natural" sense of something bigger then me. As I grew, so did It. This "bigger then me presence" went from Father, to Mother/Father, to the Unknown. The sense I got from this Natural presence was that I was acceptable just as I am/was. This wasn't an outside presence coming in to fix me. It, too, lacked boundaries just like the forces on the outside (father, church, Jesus, and bible god). But through this connection, I felt a deep sense of love and acceptance. Not looking up at the sky or at someone else, but within my own body. I liked what OM said about nature being the window into God's soul. I feel the same thing.

 

Seabiscuit... thank you for re-opening the thread. I have missed this discussion - so it's wonderful to revisit it.

 

I think that "bigger than me presence" is one of the reasons I use the word "God". I look at the universe and I see the universe, but I am also aware that "That which IS" or the "Alpha and Omega" or the "I AM" is greater than the sum of its parts. And so ... it goes with each individual manifestation of this infinite ONENESS, infinite LOVE, infinite WISDOM. I like what you said, that "bigger than me presence".

 

The one new aspect of all of this is that I play a huge role in this larger then me connection. I never saw that before. When grandma died 10 years ago, I lost that wonderful feeling experienced in my relationship with her. It has suddenly occurred to me that I made up 50% of that relationship. Those great feelings came from me too. I only lost 50% of those. I suspect it is the same for the natural god. I make up 50% of that relationship. I bring my own personality and perspectives. I admit it is subjective. But it's also very real. I'm still working on this new idea and I'm loving it! If I never experience that sense of internal "oneness," I will not be concerned because I feel so much love in that connection.

 

Seabiscuit ... your insights are wonderful. I too feel the give and take of this presence. I think my biggest part is to just remain "open" to not allow myself to loose the natural "wonder" that we all share. "Bigger than me presence" does NOT mean separate and distant from me, just that there is something "more". Something within and beyond at the same time - that every human is aware of on some level. Remaining "open" to this ONENESS, LOVE, WISDOM is our part. Paying attention to this interconnectedness and allowing ourselves to participate in it.

 

Again - thank you for re-opening this discussion.

 

Antlerman

 

Ok you got it. Give me a little time to put together some cohesive thoughts in my brain first. I'm a little occupied with a few things to make much sense communicated some of my thoughts right now. But I'll be hitting hard again very soon.. promise.

 

I look forward to your new thread.

[Seabiscuit]

"Seabiscuit ... your insights are wonderful. I too feel the give and take of this presence. I think my biggest part is to just remain "open" to not allow myself to loose the natural "wonder" that we all share."You talked about not losing the natural wonder. I find that the natural wonder lessens as I look for more structure around this particular concept of God. Do you?

 

So at work, there is a group trying to put together an intranet for a mid sized company. I'm not very technical so I'll probably use all the wrong terms. Anyways, this intranet is called a WIKI. The beauty of a WIKI is that its open and anyone can add or edit content. The downside of the WIKI is that anyone can add or edit content. We're trying to add structure and safety to this site and as we do, the beauty of the WIKI diminishes just a little. Maybe it's when we try to contain or quantify wonder?

 

 

"Bigger than me presence" does NOT mean separate and distant from me, just that there is something "more". Something within and beyond at the same time - that every human is aware of on some level. Remaining "open" to this ONENESS, LOVE, WISDOM is our part. Paying attention to this interconnectedness and allowing ourselves to participate in it. "

 

 

I really get what you're saying here. The concept of separateness destroys this God connection I feel. Yet, that is what my christian background taught me. That my center of control was outside of me. When I look within myself and find this Bigger then Me Presence, my center of control changes a little. When I think about myself being part of that connection, my center of control then moves inside of me. This has been very empowering for me in my life.

 

I've enjoyed Buddhism because I've learned principles that talk about relaxing into spiritual concepts rather then "doing heavy lifting."

 

So, in my christian background, this concept of bible god had a leaving component to it. I didn't behave as I should and didn't repent then bible god could turn his back on me or worse yet I could wind up in hell.

 

The idea of leaving or punishment doesn't seem to fit with my spiritual connection to the God within me. I find that I can break the connection by not staying open, but the force on the other side of that connection doesn't move. Do you find this true and why?

[Open_Minded]

You talked about not losing the natural wonder. I find that the natural wonder lessens as I look for more structure around this particular concept of God. Do you?

 

Yes ... this is a problem we humans have. We feel this "bigger than me presence" and then we go about the business of trying to stuff it into the pint size jar of our miniscule human brains.

 

On the one hand we need the structure to put some framework to it all, on the other hand the frame work itself can become a constraint - as so many on this board can attest to.

 

I suppose - like your intranet - it's a matter of trying to find balance. I think that is one reason I enjoy dialog with people who are different from myself. It is easier to find and maintain balance when there are others around to remind you that your view of the world is not the only valid viewpoint.

 

We're trying to add structure and safety to this site and as we do, the beauty of the WIKI diminishes just a little. Maybe it's when we try to contain or quantify wonder?

 

And you are correct - we do run into trouble when we try to contain or quantify wonder.

 

Don't you also think we try to hang on too tightly to wonder - when we experience it. I mean - it's been my experience that when I'm having one of these "bigger than me" moments, that as it starts to recede (which is quite normal) than sometimes I grasp at the moment, feeling sorrow as it passes. Do you know what I mean.

 

"Bigger than me presence" does NOT mean separate and distant from me, just that there is something "more". Something within and beyond at the same time - that every human is aware of on some level. Remaining "open" to this ONENESS, LOVE, WISDOM is our part. Paying attention to this interconnectedness and allowing ourselves to participate in it. "

 

I really get what you're saying here. The concept of separateness destroys this God connection I feel. Yet, that is what my christian background taught me. That my center of control was outside of me. When I look within myself and find this Bigger then Me Presence, my center of control changes a little. When I think about myself being part of that connection, my center of control then moves inside of me. This has been very empowering for me in my life.

 

I've enjoyed Buddhism because I've learned principles that talk about relaxing into spiritual concepts rather then "doing heavy lifting."

 

Seabiscuit ... you have eluded to darkness and sadness in your life. Not to open wounds ... but you speak above about this Bigger then Me Presence within you as very empowering. How has it helped you through your anger and your grief?

 

See, that was one of the hardest things for me to come to grips with. I had always avoided dealing with the darker parts of my life. About 5-6 years ago this all came to a head - and I had to deal with a "dying" of sorts. It's difficult to explain - but this period was very pivotal in my spiritual life - not until I was willing to take it head on was I able to get past it and enter a new phase of my spiritual life.

 

I know there are parallels to this kind of an experience in Buddhism - but I don't know how it is framed or the way that it is treated. It would be interesting to know if you've had experience with this type of thing in your Buddhist training.

 

I ask because of what you said about, "heavy lifting". See Father Keating (when teaching Centering Prayer) teaches the same type of concept. He also teaches that if we go into Centering Prayer with an intentional "openeness to God as God is, not as we perceive God to be" that we will discover much. Part of what will happen - is that in time our unconsciousness will start to "unload" negative memories/feelings. That the process of meditation opens one up and a lot of old garbage rises to the surface in the form of negative thoughts or feelings that we may, or may not understand.

 

Anyway - in my experience - it requires a lot of strength to deal with this aspect of a meditative lifestyle. Truly there is a sense of "dying" - the old passing away so that the new can come forth. And this is where that "bigger than me presence" has really been pivotal. Where I feel a deep personal connection. Do you know what I mean???

 

The idea of leaving or punishment doesn't seem to fit with my spiritual connection to the God within me. I find that I can break the connection by not staying open, but the force on the other side of that connection doesn't move. Do you find this true and why?

 

Oh yes, I find this to be very true. It is partly what I was asking about when one has to deal with intense spiritual/emotional pain. We may shut down and isolate - our pain may be too much to bear and what gave us joy and pleasure only a short time before, now seems empty. But somehow - there is still something there. That "Bigger than me Presence" is still there - ever present. Somehow there is strength in it all - - -

[Seabiscuit]

Don't you also think we try to hang on too tightly to wonder - when we experience it. I mean - it's been my experience that when I'm having one of these "bigger than me" moments, that as it starts to recede (which is quite normal) than sometimes I grasp at the moment, feeling sorrow as it passes. Do you know what I mean.

 

Yes, I do. I just finished a bike ride. When I'm at my mountain home, I have a hard time exercising--too cold, snowy, etc. So I don't. When I find myself venturing outside, the part of myself that's always planning, that's the executive me, starts to lay out a daily routine. I only disappoint myself because I quit on day two. The expectation becomes the killer. Now, I know exercise and spirituality aren't the same, but I believe my expectations are. I start to expect wonder. I'm learning how to just let things be. That's a hard one for me!

 

I meditate almost every morning. I use to try and do it the "right" way. The whole twenty to thirty minute thing. I would sometimes have very wonderful bigger then me moments, but not always. I had a bunch of sad times during meditation which didn't seem right. I emailed a friend and asked him about it. He suggested looking at mediation as just being with what is inside me. Again, very hard!

Seabiscuit ... you have eluded to darkness and sadness in your life. Not to open wounds ... but you speak above about this Bigger then Me Presence within you as very empowering. How has it helped you through your anger and your grief?

 

I've spent a good deal of time thinking about your question. I have wounds, I guess. But I express them in ways that are unexpected. For example, I'm very afraid of men. At work, I'm very anxious around men who are in positions of authority. I've been very afraid of people in general, but men in authority scare me the most. So when I'm afraid and its affecting my job, I go to a quiet space within myself and listen. You should probably know that I'm a dissociative. I'm very embarrassed about it most of the time. I used to feel VERY ashamed of who I was as a "wounded" individual. But listening without making judgments has been very healing. So, I listen and give weight to what I sense/hear inside me--other parts of my personality. The one voice that is always the strongest and brings the most peace, I call my "connection" or god. It is that voice that doesn't feel like me only part of me. I might think of ways I can allow myself to let down my guard with a particular male co-worker who I know to be trustworthy. I've been able to over-come much fear and made some good friends.

 

I believe it is the strength/encouragement I find in that connection and the courage I find in myself. A joint effort.

 

See, that was one of the hardest things for me to come to grips with. I had always avoided dealing with the darker parts of my life. About 5-6 years ago this all came to a head - and I had to deal with a "dying" of sorts. It's difficult to explain - but this period was very pivotal in my spiritual life - not until I was willing to take it head on was I able to get past it and enter a new phase of my spiritual life.

 

I think I can relate in terms of letting go of my ego. Do you know what I mean by ego? The part of me that can't think past its own survival. My ego can't let go of pain or process pain. So, I have to wait until my ego is ready to let its wishes "die" and then I can move on. I'm not sure if that's the same thing and did I miss what you meant?

 

Taking something head on, I really understand! I learned a concept of embracing pain. I'm not sure what religion owns that concept. But it was the one thing that changed my life. I became willing to embrace my pain in order to process the healing. There is something profound in just sitting with my pain or when a friend listens to me as a witness--very helpful! Does it help you to not only have a listener but someone to witness what you're experiencing even if its just you?

 

I know there are parallels to this kind of an experience in Buddhism - but I don't know how it is framed or the way that it is treated. It would be interesting to know if you've had experience with this type of thing in your Buddhist training.

 

I've had very little Buddhist training. I'm just starting out. And I'm afraid of any religion, but my spiritual curiosity won't leave it be. So, I keep looking and asking questions.

 

I ask because of what you said about, "heavy lifting". See Father Keating (when teaching Centering Prayer) teaches the same type of concept. He also teaches that if we go into Centering Prayer with an intentional "openness to God as God is, not as we perceive God to be" that we will discover much. Part of what will happen - is that in time our unconsciousness will start to "unload" negative memories/feelings. That the process of meditation opens one up and a lot of old garbage rises to the surface in the form of negative thoughts or feelings that we may, or may not understand.

 

This is very helpful OM! Very helpful. Oh, I looked up Father Keating and got kind of spooked by the language. Maybe when I'm in the city, I'll see if I can find a book to skim through rather then explore a website.

 

Anyway - in my experience - it requires a lot of strength to deal with this aspect of a meditative lifestyle. Truly there is a sense of "dying" - the old passing away so that the new can come forth. And this is where that "bigger than me presence" has really been pivotal. Where I feel a deep personal connection. Do you know what I mean???

 

Six years ago, I had a vision once about a dead part of myself. I'm not sure if this is what you mean and if my story is inappropriate. I'll share carefully . This part of mean seemed like a small baby. I didn't know what to do so in my mind I had a funeral and said a teary goodbye. I know this sounds strange, but that baby represented my grief and loss; a part of me that would never come back. I handed that little, limp body to that gentle connection and I cried buckets. (When I as a baby and small child, they'd beat me until I'd stop crying. I have no idea how many times. But I knew that this experience is what caused the loss.) But once I buried (in my mind) that baby, I began to move on to healing other parts of myself. After I dried my eyes, I felt such a huge burden lifted. It was a real turning point for me. If I look back to all the healing I've experienced, that was one of the bigger steps.

 

 

Oh yes, I find this to be very true. It is partly what I was asking about when one has to deal with intense spiritual/emotional pain. We may shut down and isolate - our pain may be too much to bear and what gave us joy and pleasure only a short time before, now seems empty. But somehow - there is still something there. That "Bigger than me Presence" is still there - ever present. Somehow there is strength in it all - - -

 

I know about shutting down and isolating. I think it takes more courage to stay with the connections in life that bring you strength--at least for me. I'm not sure about the concept of a higher self and the connection and how that all comes together, but its real for me. No matter how much I've isolated myself, that connection never goes away.

 

Do you have thoughts about what it means to have a higher self?

[Open_Minded]

I meditate almost every morning. I use to try and do it the "right" way. The whole twenty to thirty minute thing. I would sometimes have very wonderful bigger then me moments, but not always. I had a bunch of sad times during meditation which didn't seem right. I emailed a friend and asked him about it. He suggested looking at mediation as just being with what is inside me. Again, very hard!

 

Yes... I know what you mean. I have been taught to "sink into" the feelings when they don't pass. But sometimes this can be very hard. Although - I have had times where it's worked. And afterwards I do feel lighter - clearer.

 

The one voice that is always the strongest and brings the most peace, I call my "connection" or god. It is that voice that doesn't feel like me only part of me. I might think of ways I can allow myself to let down my guard with a particular male co-worker who I know to be trustworthy. I've been able to over-come much fear and made some good friends.

 

I believe it is the strength/encouragement I find in that connection and the courage I find in myself. A joint effort.

 

Yes... I can see what you are saying here. That you sense not only your own voice - but a connection with a voice/wisdom that pervades all of existence? That there is no place we can go and be physical separated from this inherent awareness within us - but we must remain open to it. That is our job - to remain open? Is this what you mean?

 

See, that was one of the hardest things for me to come to grips with. I had always avoided dealing with the darker parts of my life. About 5-6 years ago this all came to a head - and I had to deal with a "dying" of sorts. It's difficult to explain - but this period was very pivotal in my spiritual life - not until I was willing to take it head on was I able to get past it and enter a new phase of my spiritual life.

 

I think I can relate in terms of letting go of my ego. Do you know what I mean by ego? The part of me that can't think past its own survival. My ego can't let go of pain or process pain. So, I have to wait until my ego is ready to let its wishes "die" and then I can move on. I'm not sure if that's the same thing and did I miss what you meant?

 

I think we're talking about the same (or a similar phenomenon). I would say false self/true self. But - I think I know what you are talking about. It's all academic until you're in the situation - and then the only language that seems to fit is "dying", "die". Do you know what I mean. But - in the long run it's not a bad thing - it leads to good. After it passes then there is newness - life - one feels lighter and more open?

 

Taking something head on, I really understand! I learned a concept of embracing pain. I'm not sure what religion owns that concept. But it was the one thing that changed my life. I became willing to embrace my pain in order to process the healing. There is something profound in just sitting with my pain or when a friend listens to me as a witness--very helpful! Does it help you to not only have a listener but someone to witness what you're experiencing even if its just you?

 

Yes .. yes... this is what I meant earlier when I spoke of "sinking into the pain". There was one period of my life where I don't know how I could have gone on without one person who "witnessed" the pain. I think it helped to keep me "grounded". At the time I wondered if I was loosing touch with reality - having this person help me through the "dying" process kept me grounded.

 

This is very helpful OM! Very helpful. Oh, I looked up Father Keating and got kind of spooked by the language. Maybe when I'm in the city, I'll see if I can find a book to skim through rather then explore a website.

 

Seabiscuit --- with your negative experiences of Christianity --- don't worry about reading Father Keating. If I've learned anything on this board it is that the very same language which helps me and which I find comfort in causes others pain. I do think Father Keating's teachings about the unloading of unconsciousness are valid and well grounded within a modern understanding of the meditative process and its affect on the brain and subconscious. But his teachings are also grounded in Christian language and tradition. This "dying" process that we have been discussing - within the Christian tradition - language of the crusifixion is used to symbolize this process.

 

Anyway - in my experience - it requires a lot of strength to deal with this aspect of a meditative lifestyle. Truly there is a sense of "dying" - the old passing away so that the new can come forth. And this is where that "bigger than me presence" has really been pivotal. Where I feel a deep personal connection. Do you know what I mean???

 

Six years ago, I had a vision once about a dead part of myself. I'm not sure if this is what you mean and if my story is inappropriate. I'll share carefully . This part of mean seemed like a small baby. I didn't know what to do so in my mind I had a funeral and said a teary goodbye. I know this sounds strange, but that baby represented my grief and loss; a part of me that would never come back. I handed that little, limp body to that gentle connection and I cried buckets. (When I as a baby and small child, they'd beat me until I'd stop crying. I have no idea how many times. But I knew that this experience is what caused the loss.) But once I buried (in my mind) that baby, I began to move on to healing other parts of myself. After I dried my eyes, I felt such a huge burden lifted. It was a real turning point for me. If I look back to all the healing I've experienced, that was one of the bigger steps.

 

I can understand this experience Seabiscuit. Like we discussed earlier - the unloading of the unconsciousiness. I'm happy that you were able to move on to healing other parts of yourself.

 

I know about shutting down and isolating. I think it takes more courage to stay with the connections in life that bring you strength--at least for me. I'm not sure about the concept of a higher self and the connection and how that all comes together, but its real for me. No matter how much I've isolated myself, that connection never goes away.

 

Do you have thoughts about what it means to have a higher self?

 

I do know what you mean when you say that the connection never goes away. I think this IS your higher (or true) self. To me this is an inner awareness of infinite WISDOM/LOVE.

 

BTW ... this is a good discussion.

[Seabiscuit]

 

"Yes... I can see what you are saying here. That you sense not only your own voice - but a connection with a voice/wisdom that pervades all of existence? That there is no place we can go and be physical separated from this inherent awareness within us - but we must remain open to it. That is our job - to remain open? Is this what you mean?"

 

Yes, exactly. You and Antlerman were talking about God being love. You were talking about a scripture verse talking about God being love. I understand it in terms of words, but could you expand more of what you mean if possible?

 

In the summer, I walk fifteen minutes from my home in the mountains to a bridge where the beavers live--a whole family. I like to watch them swim and the sun set. While I'm there I'm usually not thinking about God, meditation, or much else. I just take it in. I notice that everything within the picture I just described has a meaning to it--maybe energy. That energy just is regardless of what I'm doing or thinking. Sometimes I think that my connection is the energy that runs through everything. However, not everything within this picture would be love. The beavers cut down the trees and the local hunters occasionally shoot the beavers. This is where my head is in trying to understand the God is Love concept.

 

"I think we're talking about the same (or a similar phenomenon). I would say false self/true self. But - I think I know what you are talking about. It's all academic until you're in the situation - and then the only language that seems to fit is "dying", "die". Do you know what I mean. But - in the long run it's not a bad thing - it leads to good. After it passes then there is newness - life - one feels lighter and more open?"

 

I don't mean to start breaking down words, but could you tell me more about a False self? I'm learning how powerful acceptance can be. I can accept my ego and relax it. But the term false, to me, means something that is not. How can I deal with something that is not. Can you help me with these terms?

 

"Yes .. yes... this is what I meant earlier when I spoke of "sinking into the pain". There was one period of my life where I don't know how I could have gone on without one person who "witnessed" the pain. I think it helped to keep me "grounded". At the time I wondered if I was loosing touch with reality - having this person help me through the "dying" process kept me grounded."

 

Why do you think witnessing is so important? I mean it's powerful. I've told parts of my story over and over again. I didn't get healing until I sat down and really heard myself. My healing continued when my spiritual advisor listened with me. Those sessions were powerful. I had been to counseling years before, and the experience wasn't as helpful.

 

"Seabiscuit --- with your negative experiences of Christianity --- don't worry about reading Father Keating. If I've learned anything on this board it is that the very same language which helps me and which I find comfort in causes others pain. I do think Father Keating's teachings about the unloading of unconsciousness are valid and well grounded within a modern understanding of the meditative process and its affect on the brain and subconscious. But his teachings are also grounded in Christian language and tradition. This "dying" process that we have been discussing - within the Christian tradition - language of the crusifixion is used to symbolize this process."

 

The cross has always bothered me. People actually died on those things. It seems so disrespectful to carry it through as a symbol. The pain and anguish I could feel going through an execution like that would be mind blowing. I can see how it would be a good symbol or metaphor for internal growth unlike a knife or gun. What are your thoughts?

 

"I can understand this experience Seabiscuit. Like we discussed earlier - the unloading of the unconsciousiness. I'm happy that you were able to move on to healing other parts of yourself."

 

We've been talking about the God connection. Boy, I wish I had a direct line to my unconsciousness! There's so much in there. Kind of like a basement you can't quit get to. I think meditation and time is really the only way.

 

"I do know what you mean when you say that the connection never goes away. I think this IS your higher (or true) self. To me this is an inner awareness of infinite WISDOM/LOVE."

 

What troubles me is that I have felt intense feelings of unworthiness. To think there is a part of me that is True or Higher is humbling. When I look back at my saying good bye to my connection, I met that part of me for the first time. A fried told me that he saw me as an advocate. I said absolutely no! He said that when you change yourself, you've changed a part of the world because we're all a part of the world.

 

When I think about you, Antlerman, Soul in Crisis, and others on this board, I feel like not only am I part of the word but a part of a collective consciousness. Do you know what I mean? Kind of like the same energy that runs through the nature I watch at the bridge is also in the people around me. Because no everyone is "safe" my little theory falls apart. What are your thoughts on collective consciousness?

 

"BTW ... this is a good discussion. "

 

I'm glad you are! Because I REALLY am enjoying this!! I can't wait for Antlerman to send out his new thread. I'll have to keep an eye out so I don't miss it.

 

BTW, I lost the right tags to make your quotes look normal. Sorry.

[jrmarlin]

This sounds like a God on Tap speech. I love White Raven's comments and want to know the book they are referring to........................

[Guest Kari]

The message of Jesus, Muhammad, Moses, Abraham, The Sikh Guru,

and countless others was all the same:

 

There is One God.

 

Oh really? Show me any god; then I will be convinced.

 

 

Just look around you Poonis! Don't the trees CRY out a creator?? Doesn't the UNIVERSE itself DEMAND a God???

 

For A.] Why the yelling?

Some people do not see the world through the same there-must-be-a-God-rose-coloured-lenses as you do.

You do not know that simply because the trees are beautiful or because the universe is grand, they demand a creator.

Nobody knows that.

 

Tell me, have you ever spoken with a tree?

Have you held conversation with the universe?

 

I suppose you'll tell me that God talks to you, too?

 

&For B.] Cool your muhfuckin' jets.

 

Look around you and realize that we all have different experiences, different beliefs.

To you, it is impossible that there is no God.

To me, it is highly possible.

 

Why are you even here @ ex-christian.net if you yourself are an avid believer?

 

I don't storm churches and interrupt Bible studies with my theories.

 

I don't know everybody else's opinion, but it seems to me that you have no right to even be here.

 

Ok, there's my two cents.

Have a great day, Jesuslover!

[Open_Minded]

Oh really? Show me any god; then I will be convinced.

Just look around you Poonis! Don't the trees CRY out a creator?? Doesn't the UNIVERSE itself DEMAND a God???

 

For A.] Why the yelling?

Some people do not see the world through the same there-must-be-a-God-rose-coloured-lenses as you do.

You do not know that simply because the trees are beautiful or because the universe is grand, they demand a creator.

Nobody knows that.

 

Tell me, have you ever spoken with a tree?

Have you held conversation with the universe?

 

I suppose you'll tell me that God talks to you, too?

 

Kari ... Asimov is an athiest. Asimov was joking when s/he bolded the letters. S/he doesn't think God talks to him/her.

 

Seabiscuit, I really have been enjoying this conversation and want to continue it in a thoughtful way. So - I promise I'll come back and add a post later.